Ares Armor and the ATF

[Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas]

So... what happens to all the guys who bought these receivers? Classic ATF door-kicking, puppy-killing, house-immolating raid?

[freakazoid]

Wouldn't put it past them.

I wonder if in the end this could work out very well for us.

[Gewehr98]

How the raid happened - the judge who issued the Temporary Restraining Order against the ATF later modified it on March 14th to allow the raid to commence:

http://blog.californiarighttocarry.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/6.pdf

[Tallpine]

Well, at least the ATF didn't burn down the gunstore and shoot the owner and his dog ....   

[Angel Eyes]

EP Armory responds to the raid:

http://blog.predatorbdu.com/2014/03/ep-armory-responds-to-atf-raid.html

[Balog]

http://aresarmor.com/store/Ares-Armor-dispute-with-the-ATF?utm_source=13Mar2014+ATF+Court+Order&utm_campaign=13MAR14-ATFdispute&utm_medium=email

http://www.scribd.com/doc/212261074/Ares-Armor-Motion-for-TRO

http://www.scribd.com/doc/212260831/Ares-Armor-TRO-Complaint

http://www.scribd.com/doc/212487675/DOJ-Response-Ares-Armor

http://www.scribd.com/doc/212508154/Order-Clarifying-TRO-Ares-Armor

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=907095

From that last one...

We at CGF have confirmed the ATF has searched multiple properties in the Ares Armor/EP Lowers matters, and customer lists have been seized.

If you are contacted by law enforcement:

DO NOT PANIC.

... and please follow the guidance below. Embellish at your own risk.

This investigation appears IMHO to be less about individual customers, than whether a given
seller/shop needs an FFL, etc. But they'd love to pick up any trailing 'debris' they can find.

[Commingled with this drama, and coloring it a bit, was the lead-in to this w/ some crap vendors
in greater Sac area that may have been selling what could be regarded as complete rifles built
from "80%" without paperwork, and which also may not have been compliant in other aspects.
(These people appear to me to be well outside California's "legitimate gun culture".)]

If you are contacted:
We recommend you exercise your right to remain silent, not comment/assist, AND to contact an
attorney (_both_ are important; former is less useful & possibly harmful without asserting the
latter.) Assisting or 'continuing the conversation' will NOT help you.

PURE SILENCE ("I ain't talkin' to you") can be used against you in Federal matters. The best
way is to merely say, "I need to contact my attorney before making any comments."

Your verbal responses should be polite but firm/insistent. Do not yell.
.
NEVER CONSENT TO A SEARCH. If they coulda gotten a warrant they'd've have one
already. The more brusque & harsh they are is usually in inverse proportion to their
confidence in the matter.

If they don't have a warrant and barge in, do NOT interfere/resist, but continue to insist
on the illegality of their 4th Amendment violation.

DO NOT OPEN LOCKED CONTAINERS FOR THEM UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. Make'em
work for it. (They can find their own blowtorch & buy you new gun storage later.)
.
If contacted, do contact The Calguns Foundation’s Help Hotline

http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/get-help/hotline/

But PLEASE only contact this IF YOU HAVE BEEN CONTACTED BY L.E. IN RELATION TO ABOVE
SITUATION. Do NOT load the CGF helpline system down with various personal/conditional
"what-if" questions if nothing has happend to you, or other similar inquiries - dammit, it's a
HOTline.

CGF is taking a new policy that EVERY request for assistance must run thru this system.
.
Federal 18 USC 1001 is a real beeyotch. It covers making false statements to Feds (investigators,
US Attorneys, the Feebs, etc.) Even truthful but incomplete statements can get you hooked up for
a felony, even if totally innocent of any other original matters..

Do NOT rely on the ATF agents being nice ("we're not after you, we are after the big fish..."). He/
she is investigating and will not really drive charging. He generally won't have much real control
whether charges are being filed by US Attorney (unless someone were to agree to get wired up
and snitch...).
.
DO NOT assert innocence or lack of guilt. Something that's trivially wrong but technically a crime
(even minor misdemeanor) that you might not have known you committed can then be used to
show you made a misstatement - by asserting your innocence!
.
When US Attorneys are failing in their primary case(s) they often go after 18 USC 1001 charges for
various parties as their consolation prize. Think Martha Stewart.
.
Calif DOJ Firearms Bureau people or even local PD 'gun unit' LEOs could be "along for the ride".

There could be a chance also that these guys are doing legwork for the ATF. Some of these such
people may well be co-sworn as US Marshals, etc. (LAPD Gun Unit) - so don't let state/local status
calm you into talking to them differently than Feds, as 18 USC 1001 charges could still derive from
even trivial mental mistakes leading to accidental false statements in Federal matters.
.
This investigation is not really AR15, etc related. (That could have a tad of local political significance
but is really Fed-irrelevant outside the PR atmospherics.)

It is generally about "how far is too far" on pre-receiver status and transferrence, when is licensing
required, and even applies to firms involved in making receivers for good ol' cowboy revolvers or
even gunsmithing of firearm stocks & optics (when on firearms) for profit - the latter even if said
firearm(s) never left owner's presence.

Ultimately it's about ATF's enforcement/regulatory powers & their extent; the general argument is
if you're touching a gun for biz - even trivial gunsmithing - you need an FFL.
.
PEOPLE THAT BOUGHT A "PAPERWEIGHT" HUNK OF METAL and then machined it/drilled it/
milled it themselves are not really part of this even though they may get involved in the wash...

Someone buying a true 'paperweight' original '80 percent' and doing all work himself - going to his
friend's machine shop, in his garage, using a cheap drilling jig, etc. - does not raise the FFL aspect
at all.

But where that mystlcal 80% may fail is when ATF just regards it as "too damned easy". This is
why I have warned in the past about '80%' - 80% is an expert's 92% or an idiot's 37%. The
further you deviate from stuff that has been ATF approved the more risk there is.
.
Remember that those that legally construct handguns must build them as Roster-exempt single-shot
exempt ("SSE") handguns first. There could be state/local queries on this. Again, do not worry about
these questions: refer all of them to your attorney.
.
Let us say there were warrants for some of your items, and they take away the receiver only for your
'80% AR pistol'. [I'm aware that in various past matters receivers have been taken in some situations
while leaving rest of gun parts in owner's hands - either as an informal courtesy? or some other reason.]

If this is your only AR pistol, and you also own AR rifles, and you lose the pistol receiver, you have shorty
upper(s) in your possession and you should discuss their continued possession with your attorney to avoid
risk of CA SBR 'constructive possession' due to those parts still hanging around.
.
Make sure everything else in your house is legal. I shouldn't have to friggin' say this, but that includes pot
plants, steroids, 'scrip drugs in others' names, firearms that need to be configured legally, not stealing
Cable TV from your neighbor, etc. Some asshat will invariably get popped for this crap and I have little
sympathy.

(Hey, DO YOU REALLY WANNA HAVE A MAG MAGNET etc. AROUND NOW??? )
.
Teach other people in your household should NOT consent to search. Answer door only partially open.

Do not let them 'bullyrag' their way in on a cloud of BS. You do not have to come outside - ask if you are
under arrest.
.
Young Asian college/grad school folks living with their parents should NOT get "Blue Compliance Fever" and
then allow search/entry. Violate your upbringing and cultural norms.
.
KEEP CALM AND DON'T PANIC.


Surreptitious recordings are useful.

[Balog]

My sentiments exactly...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1602487_ATF_Raids_Ares_Armor_to_Seize_Customer_List_and_Inventory__EP80__ruled_a_Firearm.html&page=3#i46187303

The ATF doesn't care whether they are right or wrong. The whole point of this operation, and their efforts over the last two decades, have been to sow fear and paranoia among lawful gun owners.

They don't want kitchen table FFLs, and they want you to know it. Don't even bother applying.

They don't want 80% receivers to exist, legal or not. They want to keep them from being sold, and they want you so afraid of being raided that you avoid the whole thing.

They don't want NFA items going out on trusts. Slow it down to years for processing, change the law, and make people afraid of legal changes after the item was lawfully purchased.

Want to have an AR and an upper with a short barrel in the same house? Better not, we're too afraid of the whole "constructive intent" rationale.

My God, man. A VFG on a pistol? We're all going to jail. Call the tip line and report that seller before he gives us all a bad name.

Fear is the mind-killer, and the ATF relies on it.

[SteveS]

My sentiments exactly...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1602487_ATF_Raids_Ares_Armor_to_Seize_Customer_List_and_Inventory__EP80__ruled_a_Firearm.html&page=3#i46187303

I am not a fan of the BATFE, but some of the stuff on that list is not accurate.  The notion that kitchen table FFLs are not allowed was something that I bought into and decided to take a chance and apply.  I was approved in a few months.  When the BATFE agent came to my house to go over the compliance stuff, we actually sat at my kitchen table.  I made it clear that I wasn't going to have a store and that my neighborhood was zoned residential.

The trust approval times are not years, but months. 

They do plenty that is wrong, but I guess if you are going to complain, you should probably stick with stuff that is really happening.

[Balog]

I am not a fan of the BATFE, but some of the stuff on that list is not accurate.  The notion that kitchen table FFLs are not allowed was something that I bought into and decided to take a chance and apply.  I was approved in a few months.  When the BATFE agent came to my house to go over the compliance stuff, we actually sat at my kitchen table.  I made it clear that I wasn't going to have a store and that my neighborhood was zoned residential.

The trust approval times are not years, but months. 

They do plenty that is wrong, but I guess if you are going to complain, you should probably stick with stuff that is really happening.

They may have relaxed the kitchen table FFL stuff since then, but under Clinton that statement was certainly accurate. I agree that the trust thing is not generally true based on what I've seen, but I don't know for sure.

[Fly320s]

A friend of mine is getting his FFL right now. He will run his as a home business. Start to finish, he will have his FFL in under three months. As for the zoning laws, the ATF inspector didn't care so long as the city allowed it.

My suppressor took 10 months to get approved for my Trust.

[Pb]

The ATF is attempting the change the rules to force folks with gun trusts to also get a LEO signoff for NFA items.  This will mean millions of people will be totally unable to get NFA firearms...

They are attempting to screw over NFA trusts.

[AmbulanceDriver]

Any more word on what's going on with Ares Armor?

[dogmush]

ATF gave them a new letter.

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ATF-FTB-letter-to-previous-EP-Armory-attorney.pdf

High points:

Unlike “castings” or “blanks” which are formed as a single piece so that a fire control cavity has not been made, EP Arms uses the biscuit specifically to create that fire-control cavity during the injection molding process. as described in your letter, it appears that the sole purpose of the “buscuit” is to differentiate the fire-control area from the rest of the receiver and thus facilitate the process of making the receiver into a functioning firearm. ATF has long held that “indexing” of the fire control area is sufficient to require classification as a firearm receiver. Based upon EP Arms manufacturing process, it is clear that the “biscuit” serves to index the entire fire-control cavity. In fact, the biscuit is meant to differentiate the fire control cavity from the rest of the firearm so that it may easily be identified and removed to create a functional firearm.

However, based upon your explanation of the manufacturing process, this excess material indexing the location for the holes to be drilled is, by itself, sufficient to classify the sample as a firearm receiver

Basically they're screwed.  The ATF uses simple logic, small words, and explains why this lower is a firearm and others are not.  Folks that were hoping to be able to say this was an arbitrary or capricious ruling will be rebuffed. 

EP says they'll keep fighting, but I think they're probably fighting a losing battle there.  On the bright side (for us) the ATF lays out their reasoning pretty clearly, and both of the two polymer 80 percent lowers currently at my house are cast as one piece with a homogeneous fire control pocket. That would seem to be needed from here on out.  It'll be interesting to see how hard the ATF trys to track down these lowers.  There are at least a couple on Youtube.

[dogmush]

Also of interest. When you read through all the court filings, you find that the ATF told them it was a firearm on 7 Feb 14.  And they were still selling it on 16 Mar when Ares got raided.  If I was a customer that bought one in that 5 weeks (which coincidentally is when I was shopping for a polymer 80% lower) I'd be PISSED.

All the court docs

[230RN]

Seems to me that on the face of it, if definitions and opinions and court injunctions change over time, that's "arbitrary and capricious."

Or at least capricious.

I see it as analogous to a local governing body suddenly changing the rules so that red lights meant "go" and green lights meant "stop" just to collect more stoplight violation fines.

Not "arbitrary," since there was an underlying goal.

But at least capricious.

Meh, what do I know?

Terry, 230RN

[dogmush]

Seems to me that on the face of it, if definitions and opinions and court injunctions change over time, that's "arbitrary and capricious."

It would be but that's not what happened, despite what they are still arguing on THR.

EP said: "Hey check this out, is it cool?"

ATF said: "No, from looking at this thing you made a Fire Control Pocket.  Whatever else you did doesn't count, you made a gun."

EP said: "BS, tech branch don't know tech, we're going to keep selling these while our lower slaps you around."

ATF said: "ORLY?  Wait one..."

Then they said:"Look aholes, it doesn't matter whether you form the FCP around another piece of plastic or not.  We can see it, it's the black part that's not the white part.  You FORMED THE FCP.  It's RIGHT THERE.  Your own whining shows how your *expletive deleted*it is different from all the other stuff we approved.  We said NO the first time.  Change your *expletive deleted*it and re-apply."

And that's where we are at. I hate the ATF, but their letter is clear, doesn't change, and even goes so far as to tell EP what would probably get them an approval letter.  There's two other polymer 80% lowers on the market that aren't being messed with. 

I HATE to side with F-troop, but in this case, they were pretty straight, and EP screwed the pooch.  I wonder is EP Armory bothered to tell Ares that they had been found to be a firearm in Feb?

[AJ Dual]

It would be but that's not what happened, despite what they are still arguing on THR.

EP said: "Hey check this out, is it cool?"

ATF said: "No, from looking at this thing you made a Fire Control Pocket.  Whatever else you did doesn't count, you made a gun."

EP said: "BS, tech branch don't know tech, we're going to keep selling these while our lower slaps you around."

ATF said: "ORLY?  Wait one..."

Then they said:"Look aholes, it doesn't matter whether you form the FCP around another piece of plastic or not.  We can see it, it's the black part that's not the white part.  You FORMED THE FCP.  It's RIGHT THERE.  Your own whining shows how your *expletive deleted* is different from all the other stuff we approved.  We said NO the first time.  Change your *expletive deleted* and re-apply."

And that's where we are at. I hate the ATF, but their letter is clear, doesn't change, and even goes so far as to tell EP what would probably get them an approval letter.  There's two other polymer 80% lowers on the market that aren't being messed with.  

I HATE to side with F-troop, but in this case, they were pretty straight, and EP screwed the pooch.  I wonder is EP Armory bothered to tell Ares that they had been found to be a firearm in Feb?

This.

The ATF has even ruled index marks applied to an 80% metal lower makes it more than 80% complete.

Seems like Ares bet the farm on the dual color molding technology to fill the FCG pocket in the lower, and when the ATF said "Um... no"... EP's  ownership was already full in on the tooling cost or whatever, sold a bunch to Ares, and had to try and bluff it out, and just hope the ATF would ignore all of them in some sort of bureaucratic SNAFU. Or at minimum, sell all they could while they could, and then wrap themselves in the flag, scream "BECAUSE FREEEDOM!" and rally the pro-RKBA troops around them (for all the good it will do) when the hammer came down.

I support Ares because I disagree with the laws, and the ability of the ATF to make administrative law as they go. However, within the context of the system as it exists now, there was no "suddenly changing their minds" on the part of the ATF here, and moral and legal issues aside, from a purely pragmatic standpoint, the ATF was being consistent, and Ares was dirt stupid to do what they did, and EP may or may not have lied to Ares about when they knew the finished lower/firearm status of the plastic lowers with the colored FCG pocket.