Post by: Manedwolf on May 28, 2008, 11:42:22 AM
Quote
Miller wants shooting ranges shut down TheStar.com - GTA - Miller wants shooting ranges shut down
May 27, 2008
John Spears
Robert Benzie
Staff Reporters
Mayor David Miller wants to close recreational shooting ranges in Toronto, along with giving the city power to block gun manufacturers and wholesalers from opening new plants or warehouses.
"Nobody can deny that hobby directly results in people being shot and killed on the streets of our city," Miller said of sport shooting yesterday, amid debate on a possible gun bylaw.
Canadian Olympic pistol shooter and downtown resident Avianna Chao begs to differ. She says that if Miller gets his way, it could mean an end to her sport and it won't make the streets one bit safer.
Miller wants to terminate leases with two gun clubs that have shooting ranges on city property, one at Union Station, the other at Don Montgomery community centre.
Chao, who will head to Beijing this summer to compete for Canada at the Olympics, began shooting at Don Montgomery and now trains primarily at the Union range.
"When I heard about this city proposal today it just absolutely knocked the wind out of me," Chao said yesterday.
The gun debate erupted on a day when provincial Attorney General Chris Bentley and Community Safety Minister Rick Bartolucci were writing to their federal counterparts, seeking co-operation on curbing firearm violence.
"As you know, the people of Ontario continue to have serious concerns about the threat posed by guns and gun-related crime in our communities, particularly on the streets of downtown Toronto," Bentley and Bartolucci wrote in a five-page letter to federal Attorney General Rob Nicholson and Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day.
They asked for a three-point plan to limit gun violence by:
* Making sure federal firearms marking regulations are stringently followed so guns can be traced.
* Appointing federal prosecutors to Ontario's guns and gangs task force.
* Closing legal loopholes that let gun parts be brought into Canada.
At the same time, city staff released a report calling for a bylaw that would allow the city to restrict or prohibit the making and wholesaling of firearms in Toronto.
Only police and the military should be allowed to operate firing ranges, the report says, calling for an end to the gun club leases.
Recommendations would apply to all firearms, including rifles and shotguns. But in a scrum with reporters, Miller directed most of his comments toward handguns.
"After John O'Keefe's tragic killing, I don't think there's any defence for sports shooters any more," Miller said, referring to the man shot in January by a stray bullet. The gun was legally owned by the man charged in the killing.
"It's a hobby that creates danger to others. Guns are stolen routinely from so-called legal owners. It's time that we got those guns out of Toronto," he said.
"Do we as a society value safety, or do we value a hobby that creates danger?" he asked. "Nobody can deny that hobby directly results in people being shot and killed on the streets of our city. Those are the facts. And they're provable again and again and again."
Existing makers and wholesalers of firearms would not be affected by any new bylaw. Nor would retailers, as they're governed by federal law. The staff report says as many as 40 per cent of handguns seized by Toronto police were legally purchased but stolen from their owners.
But Chao said shutting down shooting ranges and banning manufacturers has nothing to do with safety. "Gang members don't visit these (shooting) clubs," she said.
"You have to show your licence and all the paperwork. This has nothing to do with gang violence."
Her own guns are safely stored and locked, she said. She's never had a gun stolen. "Anyone should be able to see through this," she said, "that this is the politicians just trying to say they did something, even though it will have no impact on actual gun violence. ... Why don't they go after the gangs? Why don't they go after the illegal trafficking of firearms?"
Chao said Canadian shooters are already handicapped compared with competitors because other countries let shooters train full time. If ranges are shut down, she said, "I don't know how we're expected to compete internationally."
Steven Spinney, firearms safety officer for the Scarborough Rifle Club, was also stunned by the news.
"It doesn't make any sense to be zeroing in on a gun club," he said. "We're an Olympic sport ... I'm not sure how shutting us down would help to cut the gun crime."
Participants are required to take a safety course and the club uses only single-shot rifles.
May 27, 2008
John Spears
Robert Benzie
Staff Reporters
Mayor David Miller wants to close recreational shooting ranges in Toronto, along with giving the city power to block gun manufacturers and wholesalers from opening new plants or warehouses.
"Nobody can deny that hobby directly results in people being shot and killed on the streets of our city," Miller said of sport shooting yesterday, amid debate on a possible gun bylaw.
Canadian Olympic pistol shooter and downtown resident Avianna Chao begs to differ. She says that if Miller gets his way, it could mean an end to her sport and it won't make the streets one bit safer.
Miller wants to terminate leases with two gun clubs that have shooting ranges on city property, one at Union Station, the other at Don Montgomery community centre.
Chao, who will head to Beijing this summer to compete for Canada at the Olympics, began shooting at Don Montgomery and now trains primarily at the Union range.
"When I heard about this city proposal today it just absolutely knocked the wind out of me," Chao said yesterday.
The gun debate erupted on a day when provincial Attorney General Chris Bentley and Community Safety Minister Rick Bartolucci were writing to their federal counterparts, seeking co-operation on curbing firearm violence.
"As you know, the people of Ontario continue to have serious concerns about the threat posed by guns and gun-related crime in our communities, particularly on the streets of downtown Toronto," Bentley and Bartolucci wrote in a five-page letter to federal Attorney General Rob Nicholson and Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day.
They asked for a three-point plan to limit gun violence by:
* Making sure federal firearms marking regulations are stringently followed so guns can be traced.
* Appointing federal prosecutors to Ontario's guns and gangs task force.
* Closing legal loopholes that let gun parts be brought into Canada.
At the same time, city staff released a report calling for a bylaw that would allow the city to restrict or prohibit the making and wholesaling of firearms in Toronto.
Only police and the military should be allowed to operate firing ranges, the report says, calling for an end to the gun club leases.
Recommendations would apply to all firearms, including rifles and shotguns. But in a scrum with reporters, Miller directed most of his comments toward handguns.
"After John O'Keefe's tragic killing, I don't think there's any defence for sports shooters any more," Miller said, referring to the man shot in January by a stray bullet. The gun was legally owned by the man charged in the killing.
"It's a hobby that creates danger to others. Guns are stolen routinely from so-called legal owners. It's time that we got those guns out of Toronto," he said.
"Do we as a society value safety, or do we value a hobby that creates danger?" he asked. "Nobody can deny that hobby directly results in people being shot and killed on the streets of our city. Those are the facts. And they're provable again and again and again."
Existing makers and wholesalers of firearms would not be affected by any new bylaw. Nor would retailers, as they're governed by federal law. The staff report says as many as 40 per cent of handguns seized by Toronto police were legally purchased but stolen from their owners.
But Chao said shutting down shooting ranges and banning manufacturers has nothing to do with safety. "Gang members don't visit these (shooting) clubs," she said.
"You have to show your licence and all the paperwork. This has nothing to do with gang violence."
Her own guns are safely stored and locked, she said. She's never had a gun stolen. "Anyone should be able to see through this," she said, "that this is the politicians just trying to say they did something, even though it will have no impact on actual gun violence. ... Why don't they go after the gangs? Why don't they go after the illegal trafficking of firearms?"
Chao said Canadian shooters are already handicapped compared with competitors because other countries let shooters train full time. If ranges are shut down, she said, "I don't know how we're expected to compete internationally."
Steven Spinney, firearms safety officer for the Scarborough Rifle Club, was also stunned by the news.
"It doesn't make any sense to be zeroing in on a gun club," he said. "We're an Olympic sport ... I'm not sure how shutting us down would help to cut the gun crime."
Participants are required to take a safety course and the club uses only single-shot rifles.
http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/431333
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 28, 2008, 11:52:43 AM
Post by: Standing Wolf on May 28, 2008, 01:27:02 PM
Quote
Nobody can deny that hobby directly results in people being shot and killed on the streets of our city
No shortage of wannabe tyrants, I guess.
Post by: longeyes on May 28, 2008, 03:11:41 PM
Post by: El Tejon on May 29, 2008, 04:17:27 AM
Post by: MicroBalrog on May 29, 2008, 04:19:15 AM
Well, if we let it happen it will be our fault. I just don't see Americans rolling over and turning into Canadians.
During the Revolutionary war, the British printed up little pledge forms for people to sign if they wanted to renounce that silly independence stuff and swear allegiance to the King.
In New Jersey, they ran out of forms.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 29, 2008, 04:20:14 AM
Well, if we let it happen it will be our fault. I just don't see Americans rolling over and turning into Canadians.
During the Revolutionary war, the British printed up little pledge forms for people to sign if they wanted to renounce that silly independence stuff and swear allegiance to the King.
In New Jersey, they ran out of forms.
Well, nothing much has changed in Joisey to this date. You're not even allowed to pump your own gas there.
Post by: longeyes on May 29, 2008, 06:40:46 AM
Quote
Ummm, this has already happened in Obama's Chicago.
Well, we all know how many sheep there are. I'm just saying we must never resign ourselves to the "inevitable."
As for the example of Chicago, perhaps are we are just going to relive the age-old city/country dichotomy.
Post by: charby on May 29, 2008, 07:32:33 AM
Quote
Ummm, this has already happened in Obama's Chicago.
Well, we all know how many sheep there are. I'm just saying we must never resign ourselves to the "inevitable."
As for the example of Chicago, perhaps are we are just going to relive the age-old city/country dichotomy.
I'm wondering if this gun rights battle might lead to another secession? The more rural conservative states decide to drop out of the Union?
-C
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 29, 2008, 08:50:58 AM
Well, if we let it happen it will be our fault. I just don't see Americans rolling over and turning into Canadians.
You couldn't be more wrong. Once the statists got control of the education system it was all a downhill ride for them. The gun culture is DYING in America.
Post by: Standing Wolf on May 29, 2008, 10:13:41 AM
Quote
Once the statists got control of the education system it was all a downhill ride for them.
Indeed. The question's not whether, but how soon.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 29, 2008, 10:48:31 AM
Quote
Once the statists got control of the education system it was all a downhill ride for them.
Indeed. The question's not whether, but how soon.
I'll fight them as long as I can and flee when I lose hope.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 29, 2008, 10:51:16 AM
Quote
Once the statists got control of the education system it was all a downhill ride for them.
Indeed. The question's not whether, but how soon.
I'll fight them as long as I can and flee when I lose hope.
To where?
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 29, 2008, 10:55:21 AM
Quote
Once the statists got control of the education system it was all a downhill ride for them.
Indeed. The question's not whether, but how soon.
I'll fight them as long as I can and flee when I lose hope.
To where?
I have a couple destinations including Costa Rica or Tasmania in mind.
Post by: xavier fremboe on May 29, 2008, 11:07:36 AM
2. Disarm the populace and ensure that only the state has weapons. Check!
3. Use advantage of weaponry to instill order. Check!
Let's see... According to Jared Diamond, seems like Canada is only one step (No. 4 Having an official religion that legitimizes the government) away from a full-blown kleptocracy.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 29, 2008, 11:18:51 AM
1. Confiscate and redistribute wealth in a manner that keeps the majority of the citizens placated. Check!
2. Disarm the populace and ensure that only the state has weapons. Check!
3. Use advantage of weaponry to instill order. Check!
Let's see... According to Jared Diamond, seems like Canada is only one step (No. 4 Having an official religion that legitimizes the government) away from a full-blown kleptocracy.
2. Disarm the populace and ensure that only the state has weapons. Check!
3. Use advantage of weaponry to instill order. Check!
Let's see... According to Jared Diamond, seems like Canada is only one step (No. 4 Having an official religion that legitimizes the government) away from a full-blown kleptocracy.
Unfortunately it is Canadians own good nature that has led to this. They bend over backwards to be nice, never complain and have ended up giving away the country. (I'm a Canadian, I should know).
Post by: Manedwolf on May 29, 2008, 11:19:57 AM
Quote
Once the statists got control of the education system it was all a downhill ride for them.
Indeed. The question's not whether, but how soon.
I'll fight them as long as I can and flee when I lose hope.
To where?
I have a couple destinations including Costa Rica or Tasmania in mind.
Tasmania is under Australia's laws, isn't it? That's where the 1996 massacre was that inspired them to take all guns away from people who didn't do it.
And Costa Rica? Handguns are all registered, and all "weapons of war" are absolutely illegal. That means no AK, no AR, no anything.
There is no other place. The US is the last stand.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 29, 2008, 11:28:08 AM
Quote
Once the statists got control of the education system it was all a downhill ride for them.
Indeed. The question's not whether, but how soon.
I'll fight them as long as I can and flee when I lose hope.
That's pretty much how I feel - last stand for freedom. If I have to flee things will be very bad indeed and I'll probably be an outlaw no matter where I go - I want to work within the system as long as possible, but I reserve the right to do whatever I feel is necessary in defense of my own life and freedom.
To where?
I have a couple destinations including Costa Rica or Tasmania in mind.
Tasmania is under Australia's laws, isn't it? That's where the 1996 massacre was that inspired them to take all guns away from people who didn't do it.
And Costa Rica? Handguns are all registered, and all "weapons of war" are absolutely illegal. That means no AK, no AR, no anything.
There is no other place. The US is the last stand.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 29, 2008, 11:44:50 AM
Post by: El Tejon on May 29, 2008, 11:46:40 AM
Post by: Manedwolf on May 29, 2008, 12:07:09 PM
Don't forget to put Brazil on the list of places you might want to evacuate to.
Um. Have you researched these countries?
Quote
Brazil: Since 1936 all firearms must be registered. No handguns with
ammunition more powerfull than .38 Special (9mm Short for pistols)
are allowed for civilians. Rifles and carbines are only allowed if they
fire handgun ammunition (the only center fire rifle cartridge allowed
is the vintage .44-40 WCF).
No center fire semi-automatic long gun (rifled or smooth bore) is
permited. Black powder muzzle loading guns are considered
firearms like any other and subject to the same rules.
A Brazilian citizen must not have, at any given time, more than two
handguns, two rifled long guns and two shotguns. Only shooters or
collectors registered within the Brazilian Army may have more guns
than this figures.
Citizens are not allowed to buy more than one gun per year.
Reloading is permited only for shooters belonging to a shooting
club and reloadind supplies are strictly controlled by the Brazilian
Army. Only trough the club is possible to buy reloading supplies.
If one is caught with a gun without a permit, it doesn't matter if it
was being carried or just transported (a registered gun unloaded
and locked inside a box, for instance) - it is a crime and one can
face two years in jail for that (four years if it was a forbidden gun).
ammunition more powerfull than .38 Special (9mm Short for pistols)
are allowed for civilians. Rifles and carbines are only allowed if they
fire handgun ammunition (the only center fire rifle cartridge allowed
is the vintage .44-40 WCF).
No center fire semi-automatic long gun (rifled or smooth bore) is
permited. Black powder muzzle loading guns are considered
firearms like any other and subject to the same rules.
A Brazilian citizen must not have, at any given time, more than two
handguns, two rifled long guns and two shotguns. Only shooters or
collectors registered within the Brazilian Army may have more guns
than this figures.
Citizens are not allowed to buy more than one gun per year.
Reloading is permited only for shooters belonging to a shooting
club and reloadind supplies are strictly controlled by the Brazilian
Army. Only trough the club is possible to buy reloading supplies.
If one is caught with a gun without a permit, it doesn't matter if it
was being carried or just transported (a registered gun unloaded
and locked inside a box, for instance) - it is a crime and one can
face two years in jail for that (four years if it was a forbidden gun).
The US, again, is the last stand.
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 29, 2008, 03:11:00 PM
Don't forget to put Brazil on the list of places you might want to evacuate to.
Um. Have you researched these countries?
Quote
Brazil: Since 1936 all firearms must be registered. No handguns with
ammunition more powerfull than .38 Special (9mm Short for pistols)
are allowed for civilians. Rifles and carbines are only allowed if they
fire handgun ammunition (the only center fire rifle cartridge allowed
is the vintage .44-40 WCF).
No center fire semi-automatic long gun (rifled or smooth bore) is
permited. Black powder muzzle loading guns are considered
firearms like any other and subject to the same rules.
A Brazilian citizen must not have, at any given time, more than two
handguns, two rifled long guns and two shotguns. Only shooters or
collectors registered within the Brazilian Army may have more guns
than this figures.
Citizens are not allowed to buy more than one gun per year.
Reloading is permited only for shooters belonging to a shooting
club and reloadind supplies are strictly controlled by the Brazilian
Army. Only trough the club is possible to buy reloading supplies.
If one is caught with a gun without a permit, it doesn't matter if it
was being carried or just transported (a registered gun unloaded
and locked inside a box, for instance) - it is a crime and one can
face two years in jail for that (four years if it was a forbidden gun).
ammunition more powerfull than .38 Special (9mm Short for pistols)
are allowed for civilians. Rifles and carbines are only allowed if they
fire handgun ammunition (the only center fire rifle cartridge allowed
is the vintage .44-40 WCF).
No center fire semi-automatic long gun (rifled or smooth bore) is
permited. Black powder muzzle loading guns are considered
firearms like any other and subject to the same rules.
A Brazilian citizen must not have, at any given time, more than two
handguns, two rifled long guns and two shotguns. Only shooters or
collectors registered within the Brazilian Army may have more guns
than this figures.
Citizens are not allowed to buy more than one gun per year.
Reloading is permited only for shooters belonging to a shooting
club and reloadind supplies are strictly controlled by the Brazilian
Army. Only trough the club is possible to buy reloading supplies.
If one is caught with a gun without a permit, it doesn't matter if it
was being carried or just transported (a registered gun unloaded
and locked inside a box, for instance) - it is a crime and one can
face two years in jail for that (four years if it was a forbidden gun).
The US, again, is the last stand.
I was thinking about how easy it is to pass bribes in Brazil. And the country voted 65% in favor of not banning handguns fairly recently.
Post by: longeyes on May 29, 2008, 09:17:53 PM
Of course, there's a difference between what's legally ownable and what people actually have. Anyway...
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 30, 2008, 03:17:56 AM
And if America becomes rife with warlords, guns might become more popular, not less.
Of course, there's a difference between what's legally ownable and what people actually have. Anyway...
Of course, there's a difference between what's legally ownable and what people actually have. Anyway...
America is rife with warlords - we call them members of Congress.
Post by: HankB on May 30, 2008, 03:37:15 AM
Ummm, this has already happened in Obama's Chicago.
I grew up in Chicago before the advent of B. Hussein Obama. I have reason to believe that the gun laws in Daleyville are widely - widely! - ignored by otherwise law-abiding people.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 30, 2008, 04:04:47 AM
Ummm, this has already happened in Obama's Chicago.
I grew up in Chicago before the advent of B. Hussein Obama. I have reason to believe that the gun laws in Daleyville are widely - widely! - ignored by otherwise law-abiding people.But if they ever have to use one to defend themselves, they're going to prison.
Whereas the actual gang-bangers get off, because they're victims of society.
Post by: HankB on May 30, 2008, 04:11:14 AM
Ummm, this has already happened in Obama's Chicago.
I grew up in Chicago before the advent of B. Hussein Obama. I have reason to believe that the gun laws in Daleyville are widely - widely! - ignored by otherwise law-abiding people.But if they ever have to use one to defend themselves, they're going to prison.
Whereas the actual gang-bangers get off, because they're victims of society.
They didn't look too hard for the shooter in these cases, and if the shooter kept their mouths shut, their chances of being caught were nil.
Post by: Tallpine on May 30, 2008, 07:08:12 AM
and sending them to Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, etc ...
Because I tell you that's what he will have to do if he gets his gun control passed
Post by: The Annoyed Man on May 30, 2008, 07:45:48 AM
I wonder if Obama is planning on bringing the troops home from Iraq ...
and sending them to Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, etc ...
Because I tell you that's what he will have to do if he gets his gun control passed
and sending them to Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, etc ...
Because I tell you that's what he will have to do if he gets his gun control passed
Most of the current troops (me included) would not help enforce any anti-gun roundups. Orders given must be both lawful and moral or I will ignore them and instruct those under my care to do the same.
Post by: Manedwolf on May 30, 2008, 07:47:07 AM
I wonder if Obama is planning on bringing the troops home from Iraq ...
and sending them to Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, etc ...
Because I tell you that's what he will have to do if he gets his gun control passed
and sending them to Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, etc ...
Because I tell you that's what he will have to do if he gets his gun control passed
People who take an oath to defend the Constitution are unlikely to consider violating the Bill of Rights to be compatible with that.
Post by: El Tejon on May 30, 2008, 08:10:25 AM