Author Topic: Thank a Vet today  (Read 4346 times)

White Horseradish

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« on: May 09, 2006, 05:28:29 PM »
If you can find one. If you can't, remember one.

May 9th is the day of the official announcement of the capitulation of Nazi Germany. It was the 8th in the USA, due to time zone differences. 61 years ago the collective effort of millions of people on both sides of the ocean finally paid off.

I mark this day as a Russian and as an American citizen. It's a national holiday in Russia, and although it is not in US, I still think it's quite relevant. Were it not for those folks, I would not be here. It does not matter whether they carried Garands or Mosins, they fought one enemy, they won and they made this life possible for us. My grandfather, then a sergeant in the Red Army, was among them.

I remember them. I am grateful. I will not forget.
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

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The Rabbi

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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2006, 05:32:24 PM »
Why should we celebrate this day?  Maybe it was just another example of American aggression against another country.  The Nazis werent hurting us.  We weren't threatened in any way.  So why did we have to fight them, spending millions of dollars and losing thousands of lives?
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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2006, 05:53:35 PM »
Just another example of the United States using its military to project its power into sovereign nations under the guise of helping them.

If the people of Europe wanted US style democracy they would have had it, instead we had to insert ourselves into their regional disagreements and mess it all up.

http://www.forest.ws/WeSupportU.htm

garyk/nm

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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2006, 06:37:13 PM »
Lemme get this straight; the Rabbi is bitching about U.S. involvement in WW2 and the defeat of the Nazis?
un-flipping-believable! "The Nazis weren't hurting us"?
Rabbi, take a pill and STFU.

Leatherneck

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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2006, 03:10:37 AM »
Rabbi and GoRon, please tell me you were using irony. My irony detector is low.

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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2006, 03:45:28 AM »
I am pretty certain Rabbi was trying to make a point in relation to our current situation as was I.

The link I provided should give you a clue as to my real feelings.

oops, link didn't work, how embarrassing, fixed it.  http://www.forest.ws/WeSupportU.htm

edited to add
Quote
I am pretty certain Rabbi was trying to make a point in relation to our current situation as was I.
Or maybe NOT. apparently I was being facetious and he wasn't

Leatherneck

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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2006, 03:53:38 AM »
OK, Gotcha. Thanks for the link--cool site.
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2006, 05:17:41 AM »
Quote from: garyk/nm
Lemme get this straight; the Rabbi is bitching about U.S. involvement in WW2 and the defeat of the Nazis?
un-flipping-believable! "The Nazis weren't hurting us"?
Rabbi, take a pill and STFU.
This is the sum of your argument?  "STFU"?  Why don't you try again and explain cogently why Nazi Germany was a threat to the U.S that warranted spending millions of dollars (today's worth billions) and thousands of lives.
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2006, 07:06:41 AM »
Oh, Jeez, I'm on Rabbi's side on this one. Sad

K Frame

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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2006, 07:06:43 AM »
"The Nazis werent hurting us."

Uhm... maybe because they declared war on us?

Not the other way around?

The Germans were under no obligation to support Japan by declaring war on the United States, yet they did anyway.

Seems to me for that act of temerity and stupidity they fully deserved the monumental ass kicking that they got.

The Germans have one thing to be thankful for, though...

They were smart enough to lay down arms before Berlin was nuked into glass.
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2006, 07:51:28 AM »
Thanks, Mike for the assist. Even if they had not declared war on us, that little Holocaust thingy would have been justification enough, don't you think? It ain't all about money, you know. Sometimes it's about doing what needs to be done, regardless of the cost.

richyoung

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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2006, 07:58:50 AM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
"The Nazis werent hurting us."

Uhm... maybe because they declared war on us?

Not the other way around?
American warships were actively participating in anti-uboat operations well before Pearl Harbor.  A bery well document string of provocations on the part of FDR failed to bait Germany into givng him his excuse to get into the war.  Failing that, the actions he took, all outline din the McCollum memo, forced Japan into war with us - as he had to know from Purple and Magic intercepts, Germany was obligated to declare war on us if that happened.
Quote
The Germans were under no obligation to support Japan by declaring war on the United States, yet they did anyway.
...dince we were shipping arms and giving warships to his enemy, he (Hitler) probably figured he didn't have anythign to lose...
Quote
Seems to me for that act of temerity and stupidity they fully deserved the monumental ass kicking that they got.


The Germans have one thing to be thankful for, though...

They were smart enough to lay down arms before Berlin was nuked into glass.
...but not before Hamburg and Dresden were burned out, Berlin was a pile of smoking rubble, and numerous German POWs were deliberatedly starved to death by Eisenhower (opposong this is part of what got Patton into trouble the last time).
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

richyoung

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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2006, 08:00:53 AM »
Quote from: garyk/nm
Thanks, Mike for the assist. Even if they had not declared war on us, that little Holocaust thingy would have been justification enough, don't you think? It ain't all about money, you know. Sometimes it's about doing what needs to be done, regardless of the cost.
So because Hilter was killing millions of people, we not only allied with, but gave massive aid to, Stalin, who not only was....

...killing millions of people, but also....

...helped start the whole war by invading Poland right along with Germany in the first place!

Explain how that makes ANY sense.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

K Frame

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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2006, 08:40:03 AM »
And that changes the fact that Germany declared war in the United States... how?

US ships also fired on no German submarines before the first American ships were torpedoed.

"forced Japan into war with us - as he had to know from Purple and Magic intercepts, Germany was obligated to declare war on us if that happened."

Japan was under no obligation at all to go to war with the United States.

It was a decision made largely out of their sense of national honor.

As I stated before, Germany was under NO treaty obligation to go to war with the United States. The Tripartied Agreement contained no such language, and there is absolutely no evidence that there were any secret agreements between Japan and Germany/Italy to that effect.

"numerous POWs deliberately starved to death by Eisenhower."

Ah, the claims of James Bracques. Mr. Bacques work has been discredited as a work of fiction. If you really like fictional accounts of war, I'd suggest reading Killer Angles.

You may wish to read John Keegan's take on those claims.

It's really refreshing to see the amount of AJP Taylor-style revisionism that's been creeping up in the last 30 years.

Refreshing, and tragic.
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2006, 08:49:04 AM »
Quote
I remember them. I am grateful. I will not forget.
I too, am grateful, and will not take this opportunity to stand on my soap box to denigrate the memory of the heroes who helped to make this a better world.

Quote
Rabbi, take a pill and STFU.
Some deserve no better response.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2006, 10:33:17 AM »
Quote from: Mike Irwin
And that changes the fact that Germany declared war in the United States... how?

US ships also fired on no German submarines before the first American ships were torpedoed.
Technically true, but, if you will forgive me, misleading.  American destroyers were hunting for U-boats, pinging them with sonar, and then signaling Brittish ships to come do the actual shooting.  Despite the fact no ordinace is launched, this is an act of war.  Its a matter of the historical record that Roosevelt deeply wanted to get involved in WWII.  On 31 October 1941 (note date), the USS Reuben James was torpedoed by German submarine U-552 near Iceland.  It was escorting convoy HX-156, full of war material, to England, (a violation of neutrality and an act of war) when it interfered with a wolfpack attack by positioning itself between it and the convoy.  A torpedo put her down.  Had the circumstances not been such a blatant violation of international and American law, FDR would have pressed for a declarion of war based on this incident, as well as the Greer incident, and many others.  That he did not tacitly acknowledges that it was the US that declared war on Germany - just without the courtesy of a declaration, (isn't that what we allegedly got so mad at the Japanese for?)

Quote
"forced Japan into war with us - as he had to know from Purple and Magic intercepts, Germany was obligated to declare war on us if that happened."

Japan was under no obligation at all to go to war with the United States.
Got a news flash for you - America was at war with Japan 4 DAYS before the Pearl Harbor attack.  America was part of a secret allieance with Britain, Nationalist China, and the Dutch, (the ABCD pact) that commited all parties to share intelligence, resources, bases, AND committed all parties to the pact to go to war together if Japan committed any number of acts, including having military  forces cross various lines of longitude and latitude.  On December 3, Dutch instalation in the East Indies detected the Japanese naval force steaming for Pearl Harbor and notified Washington of the same, invoking the war clause of the ABCD pact.
Quote
It was a decision made largely out of their sense of national honor.
It was an inevitable response to the 8 action items contained in the McCollum memo - all 8 were impimented by FDR with the express purpose of leaving Japan with no choice but to go to war.
Quote
As I stated before, Germany was under NO treaty obligation to go to war with the United States. The Tripartied Agreement contained no such language, and there is absolutely no evidence that there were any secret agreements between Japan and Germany/Italy to that effect.
True, but we were not only shipping munitions, fuel, and war ships (ON CREDIT!) to his adversary, (an act of war), American pilots were flying American planes (PBY Catalinas, although marked as British) on combat missions against German ships.  What did he have to lose, verses gaining the freedon to torpedo the supply convoys all the way back to the ports.
Quote
"numerous POWs deliberately starved to death by Eisenhower."

Ah, the claims of James Bracques. Mr. Bacques work has been discredited as a work of fiction. If you really like fictional accounts of war, I'd suggest reading Killer Angles.

You may wish to read John Keegan's take on those claims.
Bracques' work definately has its flaws - but so do his rebutters.  this review puts it better than I can:

"This may seem like a very obscure debate but it goes to the heart of what we know, or think we know, about WW II, as for example the relative fighting effectiveness of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army. It makes a big difference whether a million soldiers surrender, or die fighting. It also makes a considerable difference whether the Soviets held a million foreigners prisoner and denied the fact, or not. Our history books are full of what amount to vague guesses, many of them wrong.

What is particularly disturbing is that Bacque has since made even larger claims, about postwar starvation of German civilians (in his later book Crimes and Mercies), and these claims have been handled in even less convincing fashion (mainly silence) by his critics. We know that there was starvation in Germany as late as 1947 and 1948, and we know that the official numbers put out by the occupation governments of the time are absurd and wrong. We can not trust Bacque or his critics to get at the truth by themselves. We are left with the uncomfortable suspicion that millions of people may well have died, in part at least due to official American, British, or French policy, and that the truth of their deaths has remained hidden -- a vast campaign of revenge against the German people. But we do not know this, and the real explanation might easily prove (like the missing death notices) much less scandalous."
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2006, 02:16:50 PM »
Quote from: Sergeant Bob
Quote
Rabbi, take a pill and STFU.
Some deserve no better response.
I hope this isn't the best argument you are capable of.  Pretty weak.
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2006, 02:26:14 PM »
Sorry to speak for you earlier Rabbi.

Your position is insane.

There are bad guys out there and Hitler was one of them.

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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2006, 02:47:01 PM »
Quote from: GoRon
Sorry to speak for you earlier Rabbi.

Your position is insane.

There are bad guys out there and Hitler was one of them.
Really?  Just what is "my position"?
And just because someone is a "bad guy", does that justify spending millions of dollars and lives to kill him?
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Desertdog

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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2006, 03:06:27 PM »
If anybody does not want to praise our military, let them pack their bags and move to the country of choice, that is other than the USA.

LOVE IT OR LEAVE, YOU UNGRATEFUL WRETCHES.

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« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2006, 03:07:07 PM »
Quote
Why should we celebrate this day?  Maybe it was just another example of American aggression against another country.  The Nazis werent hurting us.  We weren't threatened in any way.  So why did we have to fight them, spending millions of dollars and losing thousands of lives?
Quote
Why don't you try again and explain cogently why Nazi Germany was a threat to the U.S that warranted spending millions of dollars (today's worth billions) and thousands of lives.
If you were being serious, it appears you question the "morality" of traipsing half way across the globe to stop the German Juggernaut.

I reread the thread and you have been coy in what you believe. You passed up the chance to clarify your position and challenged others to prove you wrong.

Alliances and geopolitics are always a gamble. We have normally tried to be the good guys but have often teamed up with some bad actors. It was no secret that Germany was expansionist. Better to nip it in the bud before they rivaled or surpassed us in industrial power. Why let your enemies become strong and formidable when you can stop them ahead of time?

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« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2006, 03:23:58 PM »
Quote
I reread the thread and you have been coy in what you believe. You passed up the chance to clarify your position and challenged others to prove you wrong.
Yes, please; state your position, rather than hiding and sniping.

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« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2006, 03:33:15 PM »
Quote from: Desertdog
If anybody does not want to praise our military, let them pack their bags and move to the country of choice, that is other than the USA.

LOVE IT OR LEAVE, YOU UNGRATEFUL WRETCHES.
Free speech includes the right not to speak. You move.

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« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2006, 03:59:59 PM »
Quote
I hope this isn't the best argument you are capable of.  Pretty weak.
Blah blah blah blah blah.
Some people need to be slapped, some need to be told to STFU. They deserve no better. Nothing to argue about.
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

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« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2006, 04:00:17 PM »
Quote from: garyk/nm
Quote
I reread the thread and you have been coy in what you believe. You passed up the chance to clarify your position and challenged others to prove you wrong.
Yes, please; state your position, rather than hiding and sniping.
I havent been coy in stating my position.  I have not stated my position at all.  I have asked a question and no one has bothered to answer it, focusing on calling my views "crazy" and the like.
Why won't anyone answer the question?
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