Why guns?

[BlueStarLizzard]

I guess you and the blue lizzard slept through the Bush administration. And you don't read a lot of leftist lit. They never stop writing books and articles about the govt. oppressing this, that, and the other group.

There is a diffrence from the Monty Python Peasent style oppression the left blabbers about and real oppression that requires a force of arms to stop.

[DustinD]

How much would 40mm grenades cost compared to parachute flairs and firework mortar rounds?

[TommyGunn]

There is a diffrence from the Monty Python Peasent style oppression the left blabbers about and real oppression that requires a force of arms to stop.

Hmmmm...must have been "something completly diffferent."

[JN01]

The simplest answer is that they're expensive.

Were NFA '34 and GCA '68 were wiped tomorrow, and erm... "cultural acceptance" of DD's was comparable to that of Title I firearms, I sincerely doubt that the statistical distribution of weapons by type or caliber would change all that much.

Perhaps people would have more stuff like grenades, and more people would play with rounds over .50 BMG, but overall, even without NFA taxes or paperwork, very few of us have the time, the land/space required, or the financial resources to mess with RPG's or a Carl Gustav.

It would be nice to have the option to do so, go back to when "men of means" would equip or better supply their volunteer units, even up to the time of the Civil War, but in terms of actual distribution of such assets, I don't think it would change all that much. While I admit there's few commercial concerns serving the market, the DD space isn't artificially limited like the MG market has been since '86, and from those few folks I do know who play in it, the NFA taxes and paperwork is really the smallest hassle when your weapon costs you a couple hundred bucks a shot.

This.  Plus the range officer is going to get pissed after you set off your RPG or claymores a couple times.    Personally, I wouldn't have much desire to store destructive devices in my basement either.

[Perd Hapley]

There is a diffrence from the Monty Python Peasent style oppression the left blabbers about and real oppression that requires a force of arms to stop.

Oh, they sometimes discuss real oppression, it just has to be the oppression of a brown person, a chick, or dudes wearing dresses, or some such.

[AJ Dual]

Meh.

I have a 26.5mm "flare rifle."  Bought it for $200 a couple years ago.

Contriving 26.5mm rounds that do other things can't be THAT hard.  I'm not interested in experimenting right now and have no supplies or intentions to do so currently, but the inventiveness of the human mind is awe-inspiring.

Grenade launchers, primitive javelin-style anti-APC rockets, IED's... I'd rather have the ability to purchase quality units manufactured by experts, but the alternatives aren't that difficult.

Yes, and several of us got them, some with an eye towards getting the DD stamp for ours so we can play.

However 26.5mm is generally too small to make individually registerable munitions that are actually somewhat combat effective. It took ATK several years and a few million bucks to do it in 25mm for the prior OICW project and the current XM 25 system. And even then there are still detractors who question the actual lethality or effectiveness of the 25mm explosive payload.

You can certainly go over the 1/4 oz NFA limit on explosive filler and run up against the letter of the law, but unless it's RDX or something, it won't do much but make noise. Low order explosives, BP etc. just don't have the kick.

30, 40mm it gets a bit easier since the payloads are substantially larger and go up quickly with the diameter, but to really do it right with high brisance explosives on a semi-production basis is still going to be expensive for you somewhere, if your cost basis isn't that high on the actual rounds, it still is on the logistics and production end so it's do-able without getting yourself killed. 

[HForrest]

Yeah, I've often wondered about this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't most of these things be legal with proper ATF permits and/or tax stamps?

I think one problem is not so much legality, but the willingness of defense contractors to sell to civilians. Let's say an individual goes to the trouble to build a proper explosives magazine, obtain ATF explosives permits, and can pay whatever taxes are necessary on destructive devices... Are companies that make military munitions going to sell 40mm HEDP rounds or guided rockets to some random dude? Probably not unless it was a large and profitable enough sector of the market to offset the cost of potential liability.

As far as the Second Amendment goes, it absolutely protects these things. There's room for debate about actual WMDs like biological and nuclear weapons, but I think guided explosive munitions and other modern military technologies will become increasingly relevant to civilian defense in this day and age- from both tyrannical governments and criminal organizations. We're looking at a not too distant future of robot quadrupeds and swarms of micro aerial vehicles shaping the battlefield. Conventional firearms are becoming less important to modern combat, and at some point, they're not going to defend against much at all.

[MechAg94]

"Why guns?"
Because the National Hand Grenade Association doesn't have the membership to lobby Congress effectively. 

[Nick1911]

I've occasionally thought about putting some form 1's in for outrageous stuff.  MkII Frag Grenade.  Strela 2.  RPG-7.  M252 mortar.

Not that I have the skills, resources and space to really even pull off manufacture, but I'm curious to see what kind of scrutiny such a request would generate.

I'd also wondered, if lets say a manufacturer was willing to sell a hand grenade to an individual on form 4; assuming that grenade was filled with HE, would explosive handling requirements apply for the end user?  [Have to be an FEL, magazine, etc?]  If yes, why does this not apply to nitrocellulose based power and modern primers?

[roo_ster]

I've occasionally thought about putting some form 1's in for outrageous stuff.  MkII Frag Grenade.  Strela 2.  RPG-7.  M252 mortar.

Not that I have the skills, resources and space to really even pull off manufacture, but I'm curious to see what kind of scrutiny such a request would generate.

I'd also wondered, if lets say a manufacturer was willing to sell a hand grenade to an individual on form 4; assuming that grenade was filled with HE, would explosive handling requirements apply for the end user?  [Have to be an FEL, magazine, etc?]  If yes, why does this not apply to nitrocellulose based power and modern primers?

You would have a bunch of ATF regs to contend with regarding a HG, I expect. 

[Tallpine]

Yeah, I've often wondered about this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't most of these things be legal with proper ATF permits and/or tax stamps?

...

Didn't we fight a war over tax stamps?

[lupinus]

Didn't we fight a war over tax stamps?

And our preferred caffeinated beverage.

[Blakenzy]

I've occasionally thought about putting some form 1's in for outrageous stuff.  MkII Frag Grenade.  Strela 2.  RPG-7.  M252 mortar.

Not that I have the skills, resources and space to really even pull off manufacture, but I'm curious to see what kind of scrutiny such a request would generate.

I'd also wondered, if lets say a manufacturer was willing to sell a hand grenade to an individual on form 4; assuming that grenade was filled with HE, would explosive handling requirements apply for the end user?  [Have to be an FEL, magazine, etc?]  If yes, why does this not apply to nitrocellulose based power and modern primers?

Nitrocellulose based powders aren't considered explosives... and primers look way too cute and harmless to garner support for restrictive legislation (that is, until you store a few thousand in a jar and experience a sympathetic detonation).

[Lee]

I think we've reached a common sense middle ground.
Do you really want aging grenades and other explosives sitting around in millions of homes? Or gang bangers doing drive- by RPG and grenade runs. We tend to love common sense - until it gets used in conjunction with the 2nd amendment. In this case, I think it applies.

[zahc]

Lee,

Your argument is identical to most popular anti-gun arguments, just with different weapons. My point is that many pro-gunners insist guns "can be used responsibly" for non-weapon or personal-defense-weapon purposes, but those purposes are more or less orthogonal to the second ammendment.

[freakazoid]

I think we've reached a common sense middle ground.
Do you really want aging grenades and other explosives sitting around in millions of homes? Or gang bangers doing drive- by RPG and grenade runs. We tend to love common sense - until it gets used in conjunction with the 2nd amendment. In this case, I think it applies.

For some odd reason that just doesn't seem like a scenario that will happen, just like there isn't blood running in the streets every time a state allows concealed carry.

http://reason.com/archives/2007/08/16/the-right-to-own-a-bazooka

[Perd Hapley]

I think we've reached a common sense middle ground.
Do you really want aging grenades and other explosives sitting around in millions of homes? Or gang bangers doing drive- by RPG and grenade runs. We tend to love common sense - until it gets used in conjunction with the 2nd amendment. In this case, I think it applies.

Common sense tells us that hand grenades and RPG would be the sort of weapons useful to militia. And the second amendment clearly puts the right to own and carry weapons in the context of militia. It couldn't be more obvious that federal regulation of these is unconstitutional.

Besides, why is it anyone else's business if I keep some grenades in my home? They're not hurting you, even if they do blow up and kill me.

[AJ Dual]

Granted, it's possible it's just ignored, but whenever the Free Syrian Army or whatever insurgency is going on in the Middle East, I don't hear a lot about AD's/ND's of RPG's, mortars etc.

IED's going off prematurely, yes.   And there's some YouTube of interesting mortar and RPG accidents, but it's during actual intentional use. And seemed to harm the shooter more than anyone else.

But actual purpose built munitions, not so much. They are designed to be battlefield rugged, and not go off unintentionally.

[Fly320s]

What is the shelf life of hand grenades?  And dynamite?

Just curious, I don't actually have any of those stored in a safe location.

[Sergeant Bob]

What is the shelf life of hand grenades?  And dynamite?

Just curious, I don't actually have any of those stored in a safe location.

So, where do you store them?

[Fly320s]

So, where do you store them?

Undisclosed location.

[Tallpine]

Undisclosed location.

But secure 

[Hawkmoon]

Over on The Firing Line a few days ago someone asked what we think the limits of the 2nd Amendment are. Someone responded that he should be allowed to own an F-16 and the guy who asked the question dismissed him as a nut.

One has to wonder why people ask questions if they don't want to hear the answers. I refer back to Tench Coxe (quoted in the discussion on TFL) and his comment about "all the terrible implements of the soldier" being the birthright of Americans. Well dammit, if that stuff is my birthright, why can't I buy it?

[Hawkmoon]

And our preferred caffeinated beverage.

We fought a war over Diet Coke? When? Where?

Nobody ever tells me nuthin' !

[AJ Dual]

We fought a war over Diet Coke? When? Where?

Nobody ever tells me nuthin' !

No, Red Bull... The whole Communist Minotaur plot thing. Happened back in the 60's. Almost kicked off WWIII, IIRC.