Author Topic: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage  (Read 9418 times)

birdman

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2014, 07:51:08 PM »
I heard about this on NPR.  Did you know that the Socialist is campaigning heavily for a tips exemption/credit on the wage?

The issue of minimum wage increases has become more complicated for me.  You have people who's labor is really only worth the lower wage.  You also have people who's labors have far higher economic benefit, but are paid less because they're easily replaceable, meaning they lack bargaining ability.

The latter is where the economic 'benefits' from raising the minimum wage come from - the extremely wealthy are both more skilled and in better positions on the bargaining table, better able to accumulate that wealth.  But they're looking to invest, and I think we've reached a point where additional investment is of limited value.  So you get hugely inflated values for infrastructure, extremely low interest rates(because everything more worthwhile has already been invested in), etc...  Raise the minimum wage and the low income types get more money(on average), which they then spend on the economy buying 'stuff', which makes the economy go round.  

You need the consumption to justify the businesses.  As such, I think the government should act as a sort of economic "unemployment insurance", acting to keep the economy rolling when a downturn occurs, then getting out of the way(other than collecting taxes to pay back into the insurance fund) when an upswing occurs.  Stability is the name of the game.

Other than that, how do we encourage consumption, business, employment?  I'd say get out of the way of small businesses.  Start clearing out all the bullshit protective regulations.  Unless it deals in hazardous chemicals a hair salon shouldn't need extensive licensing.  It should take less than 20 hours of legal wrangling to open up a silk-screening store, etc...

Create a labor shortage amongst the minimum wage types and wages will take care of themselves.

There are a myriad of factual errors in your post...I'm kinda tired so ill only cite a few, otherwise, I might be accused of cyber-bullying.

"paid less because they're easily replaceable, meaning they lack bargaining ability"--they don't lack bargaining ability, if by definition they are easily replaced at the same wage, then the market values their production at that wage.  Bargaining has quite literally nothing to do with it.  Also, accepting the job initially at that wage, because if you don't someone else does, merely proves this fact.  

"extremely low interest rates(because everything more worthwhile has already been invested in)"--not quite, interest rates are extremely low because of QE and other monetary tweaks (eg twist) that are artificially suppressing interest rates.  

"Raise the minimum wage and the low income types get more money(on average), which they then spend on the economy buying 'stuff', which makes the economy go round.  "--not quite, since all that's been done is establish a new metric of the dollar value of a minimum productivity labor hour, all other wages either by former agreement (union contract) or by market response (I.e, if I'm paid 2x minimum now, and you raise minimum by 50%, I am still worth that 2x above the minimum).  Thus, since total wages increase, but productivity (the amount of "stuff") stays nearly constant (since regardless of whether or not people agree that raising minimum wage costs jobs, NO ONE says raising it increases jobs), inflation increases, so people can't buy more stuff.

The remainder of your post is pretty much all demand side reasoning, pretty much down to the classic Keynesian "stability" idea and the government "creating demand"--when the former doesn't work, and the latter BY DEFINITION is mis-allocation of resources, as that money has to come from somewhere--either direct taxation (obvious mis allocation) or deficit spending (inflationary mis allocation)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 07:54:44 PM by birdman »

Boomhauer

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2014, 08:27:13 PM »
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As such, I think the government should act as a sort of economic "unemployment insurance"

*expletive deleted* no. The .gov needs to stay the *expletive deleted* away from economics and business. The bureaucrats just screw *expletive deleted*it up when they try to help.


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Tallpine

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2014, 11:17:24 AM »
I don't support any government meddling in the economy, but the fact is that the min wage would have to be around $15/hr to be equivalent to the $1.60/hr min wage in 1972  =(

But of course the .gov (even the socialists) don't want to admit how much they have devalued our money.

I think that wages as a whole would go UP if the min wage was abolished.  Of course for some workers it would go down, but there would be many more hired (teens,etc) at the lower end.
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White Horseradish

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2014, 12:16:02 PM »
the fact is that the min wage would have to be around $15/hr to be equivalent to the $1.60/hr min wage in 1972  =(
This makes me sad panda.

I think that wages as a whole would go UP if the min wage was abolished.  Of course for some workers it would go down, but there would be many more hired (teens,etc) at the lower end.
Lower end is not really teens. Plenty of adults work these jobs.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2014, 12:22:16 PM »
I think that wages as a whole would go UP if the min wage was abolished.  Of course for some workers it would go down, but there would be many more hired (teens,etc) at the lower end.

This, and a lot of the slightly more skilled folks would have an easier job overall.  For example, it's not worth $7.50/hr to have someone come in for a few hours a couple times a week to empty trash, sweep, water plants, etc., so our receptionist does most of that in addition to her other duties.  Of course, the rest of us pitch in too, but I'd bet the boss would be fine with paying someone, say, $50/week for what would amount to about ten hours' fairly easy, almost completely unskilled work per week, removing those duties from higher paid employees' workloads.

TommyGunn

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #30 on: May 06, 2014, 12:30:14 PM »
Quote
I think that wages as a whole would go UP if the min wage was abolished.  Of course for some workers it would go down, but there would be many more hired (teens,etc) at the lower end.
Lower end is not really teens. Plenty of adults work these jobs.

Lower end used to be teens.  Obama changed that. >:D

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White Horseradish

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2014, 02:50:00 PM »
Lower end used to be teens.  Obama changed that. >:D

I'm pretty sure it was that way when he got there. This isn't a new thing.
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Tallpine

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2014, 03:51:41 PM »
I guess the problem is that older and older people are still acting like teens - that is, generally unresponsible.  ;/
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brimic

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2014, 04:19:37 PM »
This makes me sad panda.
 

It would make you an even sadder panda if it became cost effective to replace most of those jobs with automation/robotics. Working a drive-through window may not pay much, but its a stepping stone to bigger and better things.
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White Horseradish

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2014, 05:37:07 PM »
It would make you an even sadder panda if it became cost effective to replace most of those jobs with automation/robotics. Working a drive-through window may not pay much, but its a stepping stone to bigger and better things.
Reason it makes me sad panda is that what I get paid for a job requiring sizable technical skills and experience is not as far above that fixed for inflation minimum wage as it should be.

Working a drive-through window is not a stepping stone to much of anywhere. It neither gives you useful experience, nor does it allow you to do anything but barely tread water financially. 
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.

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Scout26

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2014, 06:08:11 PM »
Working a drive-through window is not a stepping stone to much of anywhere. It neither gives you useful experience, nor does it allow you to do anything but barely tread water financially. 

I would disagree.  It got me a job on a construction crew, paying $1.50 more per hour.   From there I served as an Army Officer, to finally Logistics Manager for a Manufacturing company.  I had to start somewhere and learn the basic skills.  (especially people skills).

But yes, many, many jobs previously done by teenagers (fast food, newspaper delivery, yard service) are now done by adults.

If Min. wage was eliminated, unemployment (except for those that don't want to work) would disappear.

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birdman

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2014, 07:30:08 PM »
I would disagree.  It got me a job on a construction crew, paying $1.50 more per hour.   From there I served as an Army Officer, to finally Logistics Manager for a Manufacturing company.  I had to start somewhere and learn the basic skills.  (especially people skills).

But yes, many, many jobs previously done by teenagers (fast food, newspaper delivery, yard service) are now done by adults.

If Min. wage was eliminated, unemployment (except for those that don't want to work) would disappear.


This!  I keep telling people that there wasn't really any structural (non-transitory) unemployment before minimum wage laws.

TommyGunn

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2014, 07:52:19 PM »
I'm pretty sure it was that way when he got there. This isn't a new thing.

Perhaps I engaged in a bit of hyperbole. >:D
But when I was entering the workforce minimum wage jobs were primarily held by teens and first time job holders.  In fact my first job (in a camera store) I was actually paid below min wage sub rosa as the shop owner couldn't afford even minimum wage at the time.
Of course that was during Teddy Roosevelt's administration.......... [popcorn] [tinfoil] :rofl:
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Firethorn

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2014, 10:19:13 PM »
"paid less because they're easily replaceable, meaning they lack bargaining ability"--they don't lack bargaining ability, if by definition they are easily replaced at the same wage, then the market values their production at that wage.

You're disagreeing with me in order to agree with me.  There are jobs out there paying $10/hour that would pay $100/hour if it was what it took to get somebody working it, and there are jobs that wouldn't be there if the required wage rose to $11.

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"extremely low interest rates(because everything more worthwhile has already been invested in)"--not quite, interest rates are extremely low because of QE and other monetary tweaks (eg twist) that are artificially suppressing interest rates.  

Combination of factors.  But yeah.

Quote
Thus, since total wages increase, but productivity (the amount of "stuff") stays nearly constant (since regardless of whether or not people agree that raising minimum wage costs jobs, NO ONE says raising it increases jobs), inflation increases, so people can't buy more stuff.

In some ways productivity is more tied to demand today than supply.  Increase demand and production will increase.  Irregardless, my general goal is to have as many people productively working as possible.  Ideally in such a way that eliminates the need for a minimum wage while retaining effectively full employment(there will always be some transitory unemployment). 

Quote
The remainder of your post is pretty much all demand side reasoning, pretty much down to the classic Keynesian "stability" idea and the government "creating demand"--when the former doesn't work, and the latter BY DEFINITION is mis-allocation of resources, as that money has to come from somewhere--either direct taxation (obvious mis allocation) or deficit spending (inflationary mis allocation)

My idea is to actually pay the debt off during the boom times... 

cordex

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2014, 12:43:14 AM »
There are jobs out there paying $10/hour that would pay $100/hour if it was what it took to get somebody working it, and there are jobs that wouldn't be there if the required wage rose to $11.
I don't disagree with anything in this statement, but I have no idea how it is supposed to have any relationship with government intervention.  Do you advocate government mandated wage increases for low-skill, high-value jobs or something?
In some ways productivity is more tied to demand today than supply.  Increase demand and production will increase.
Production is driven in large part by the relationship between supply and demand.  On that much we agree, but again, that doesn't somehow lead logically to "... so the government should do more stuff."

You say:
You need the consumption to justify the businesses.  As such, I think the government should act as a sort of economic "unemployment insurance", acting to keep the economy rolling when a downturn occurs, then getting out of the way(other than collecting taxes to pay back into the insurance fund) when an upswing occurs.  Stability is the name of the game.
In your model, how does the government "keep the economy rolling"?
And a follow up: When and where has that strategy worked in the past?

In truth, based on your ideas about an easily guided demand economy and the government's role in it I think I can guess the direction you want to take this.  So far you are throwing out the bumper stickers of modern Keynesian perpetual motion economics, but maybe I'm misunderstanding, or perhaps you've got a slightly different take.  Either way, a little Hayek for the road:
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KD5NRH

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2014, 12:14:36 PM »
There are jobs out there paying $10/hour that would pay $100/hour if it was what it took to get somebody working it,

This is more the fault of workers undervaluing themselves than employers not offering more; how often do you offer the grocery store $10 for a $1 item just because you would still buy it even if $10 was the lowest price you could get it for?

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there are jobs that wouldn't be there if the required wage rose to $11.

As I've said before, there are already jobs that just aren't around anymore because they aren't worth the minimum wage.  A prime example would be my high school job as a museum docent; at $3.80 an hour, it was worth $40/week/person to pay someone to sit there for a few hours each weekend, spending 75% or more of that time studying.  Now, they use only unpaid volunteers because $90/week/person is more than the budget could handle to keep a chair warm.  Same for a couple of other low-skill jobs I've had; the guy who paid me $5/hr ($0.75 over minimum at the time because I did a good job) to clean up 10 hours a week now stays late every day to mop his own floors, not because he can't afford minimum wage, but because as long as any idiot can get $7.25 doing just enough to not get fired from the easiest, most brainless jobs at Taco Bell or WalMart,  it's near impossible to find someone who will do the job right for less than it would cost to contract a maid service.

birdman

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2014, 12:42:20 PM »
Also, the relationship of technology and human capability forces the minimum productivity metric higher.
Basically, automation requires research and capital, but dramatically reduces the per unit labor cost.  As technology continues to improve, more and more things are more economically done by machine (eg machining, assembly, etc.  compare even 1980's to today w.r.t. Consumer product fabrication).

Since technology by definition becomes cheaper and more available with time, not to mention increased capability, the result -by definition- is a reduction in the amount of production demanded at lower pay grades--the reason it doesn't affect high grades as much is, while it would be obviously more profitably to replace those jobs with machines, it is economically difficult as the research and capital cost to do so exceeds the replacement value.

All increasing the minimum wage does is alter the math of when its economical to invest in the research (if its not possible now) or capital investment (if it is, just not economically worth it now) rather than employ people.

If labor truly were market valued, I would be you would see substantially less automation investment (real world example, Foxconn, which only recently has started to substantially automate, as rising salary demands of the worker base in china due to rising standard of living have now made it economical to do so...something that happened long ago in Japan). 

However, minimum wage distorts the true market value--REGARDLESS OF DEMAND--as increased demand merely increases the marginal investment minimum to increase production--if that production is more economical now at current labor costs to do in an automated way (even partially automated, eg CNC tools supervised by higher paid machinist rather than manual tools actively controlled by lower paid one), they will simply be done by machine, and raising wage minimums merely makes it even more economical to do so.

As for aggregate demand due to higher pay of those that remain employed, it either has zero effect (I.e, it is inflationary, as I mentioned) or minimal (as the lower paid folks but a much smaller fraction of "stuff" as an aggregate than the rest).

As an example, the current GDP is over $10T, and the total fraction of that spending (for now assume comparable to income) by the bottom 20% is about 10%, meaning even if you doubled their wages or handouts, and did so in a fictional uninflationary way, it would at most change aggregate demand by 10%.
Also, since those purchases tend to be staples, rather than higher value add items, it also disproportionately increases the demand for low value add things, which by definition, have low labor costs and a higher fraction of low skilled labor--the kind its easier to automate.
So if you increase their spending, it actually increases demand of more easily automatable things, which means it makes it even MORE economically beneficial to replace them with machines.
So increasing aggregate demand by minimum wage is either inflationary (most likely) or if done with unicorn farts and rainbows so as to make it not inflationary, merely makes it easier to not hire them.

Again, the true minimum wage is zero.  As technology advances, that means by definition economics force employment to higher and higher skill levels.

Adapt or die.

KD5NRH

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2014, 01:59:00 PM »
Basically, automation requires research and capital, but dramatically reduces the per unit labor cost.

Moreso for common low skill jobs; how many hours of paying someone $7.25/hr plus accompanying costs does it take to equal the cost of a couple Roombas (and similar sweep/mop/scrub/shampoo robots) to handle nightly floor cleaning?  How much does it cost to redesign the bathrooms to be cleaned and sanitized in less than 5 minutes each with a pressure washer by the owner, regular maintenance guy or night watchman as opposed to adding a janitor to the staff?  Renting a trencher or even a backhoe with one operator for an hour is already a heck of a lot cheaper than gainfully employing a few dropouts with shovels for a day.

Balog

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2014, 02:19:46 PM »
Adapt or die.

Can't happen in a democracy (or democratic republic) with universal suffrage. It's "Adapt, die, or vote for people who'll take from those who adapted." Guess which choice gets made? It's why democracy is a fundamentally flawed and unworkable system.
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brimic

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2014, 05:05:13 PM »
Can't happen in a democracy (or democratic republic) with universal suffrage. It's "Adapt, die, or vote for people who'll take from those who adapted." Guess which choice gets made? It's why democracy is a fundamentally flawed and unworkable system.

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Firethorn

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2014, 12:38:39 AM »
I don't disagree with anything in this statement, but I have no idea how it is supposed to have any relationship with government intervention.  Do you advocate government mandated wage increases for low-skill, high-value jobs or something?Production is driven in large part by the relationship between supply and demand.  On that much we agree, but again, that doesn't somehow lead logically to "... so the government should do more stuff."

No, I don't support government mandated wage increases.  What I DO support is shifting government policies such that there's hopefully so many potential jobs that there's something of a labor shortage even at low skill level positions, giving them some bargaining power.

One thing to realize is that the .1%ers aren't actually the 'job creators'.  They'll only 'create' a job if there's sufficient demand for a product that they'll make a profit(or think they will) on hiring that labor.  Even then a lot of them are idiots to the point that they'll starve their business of labor to the point that it's costing them business(many walmart stores). 

Today it's really tough to open a small business in the USA.  It's actually considered easier in numerous other countries, many of them European.  So for me, step 1 would be to start removing all the various barriers set up to discourage competing with the established businesses.  Keep them on their toes.
After that, in only the order I thought of them:
-Do we can to ensure said workers, even at the bottom of the scale, are worth something.  Education isn't the end all they'd have us believe it to be, but it certainly doesn't hurt.  As such, I think we need to fix our schools so that a high school diploma is worth something again.  It shouldn't even cost more money - for the most part per pupil spending and educational outcome are pretty independent.  There are probably some schools that truly need more funding, but there are also schools that are rebuilding their stadium for the third time in 20 years because they don't know what else to do with the money.
-Adjust policies to help encourage domestic manufacture.  Just as an example, I've seen some recent studies that Chinese pollution is so bad right now that it's impacting our west coast.  So maybe some policies, and this would require a lot of discussion, that penalizes Chinese goods somewhat to account for the negatives of that pollution over producing it domestically in a clean plant.
- Perhaps we can call this the 'anti-automation' initiative.  Give a tax credit to businesses for the more people they hire full time at a 'living wage'. 
- While we're at it, adjust legislation to remove incentives to hire only part time workers.  What I mean like this is stuff like you having to provide healthcare to workers who work over 30 hours, but none if they only work 20.  You end up with people working 2-3 jobs, rather than working at 1 place.  It's inefficient.  If you're not going to get rid of the requirement, then either require it at such a low hour level that the business might as well hire people full time, or have it scale or something.
- Oh yeah, and cut the business tax rate and/or start closing the international loopholes.  It's getting embarrassing.
- Finally, the most socialist idea I have:  Historically the US Military was the single largest source of skilled craftsmen.  Today it's much more vertical, as in people are more likely to come out of the military and get a government job/contract position working with the military.  As such, I think that a sort of 'job core' designed to give young adults skills while doing something useful for the USA wouldn't be a bad idea for those that college is not actually the best choice for(yet).  It's getting to the point that a skilled welder, electrician, or maintainer can earn as much or more than many college graduates.  With those skills they're also well set up to go into business for themselves, extending the middle class.  Look at it as an investment for the future - the cost of employing and training them for 4-6 years can easily be paid through the increased income taxes they'll pay over the years, not to mention any avoided welfare payments...

Quote
In truth, based on your ideas about an easily guided demand economy and the government's role in it I think I can guess the direction you want to take this.  So far you are throwing out the bumper stickers of modern Keynesian perpetual motion economics, but maybe I'm misunderstanding, or perhaps you've got a slightly different take.

Easily?  HAHAHAHA!   No, it's pretty much the opposite of 'easy'.  If anything I think that the programs need to be set up to react more or less automatically to shifting economic indicators, because humans are always too slow and/or engage in counter-productive actions.  For example - housing boom.  I think the correct action would have been to work to pop the bubble early, not artificially prop up home prices afterwards.

brimic

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2014, 07:49:21 AM »
No, I don't support government mandated wage increases.  What I DO support is shifting government policies such that there's hopefully so many potential jobs that there's something of a labor shortage even at low skill level positions, giving them some bargaining power.

One thing to realize is that the .1%ers aren't actually the 'job creators'.  They'll only 'create' a job if there's sufficient demand for a product that they'll make a profit(or think they will) on hiring that labor.  Even then a lot of them are idiots to the point that they'll starve their business of labor to the point that it's costing them business(many walmart stores).  

Today it's really tough to open a small business in the USA.  It's actually considered easier in numerous other countries, many of them European.  So for me, step 1 would be to start removing all the various barriers set up to discourage competing with the established businesses.  Keep them on their toes.
After that, in only the order I thought of them:
-Do we can to ensure said workers, even at the bottom of the scale, are worth something.  Education isn't the end all they'd have us believe it to be, but it certainly doesn't hurt.  As such, I think we need to fix our schools so that a high school diploma is worth something again.  It shouldn't even cost more money - for the most part per pupil spending and educational outcome are pretty independent.  There are probably some schools that truly need more funding, but there are also schools that are rebuilding their stadium for the third time in 20 years because they don't know what else to do with the money.
-Adjust policies to help encourage domestic manufacture.  Just as an example, I've seen some recent studies that Chinese pollution is so bad right now that it's impacting our west coast.  So maybe some policies, and this would require a lot of discussion, that penalizes Chinese goods somewhat to account for the negatives of that pollution over producing it domestically in a clean plant.
- Perhaps we can call this the 'anti-automation' initiative.  Give a tax credit to businesses for the more people they hire full time at a 'living wage'.  
- While we're at it, adjust legislation to remove incentives to hire only part time workers.  What I mean like this is stuff like you having to provide healthcare to workers who work over 30 hours, but none if they only work 20.  You end up with people working 2-3 jobs, rather than working at 1 place.  It's inefficient.  If you're not going to get rid of the requirement, then either require it at such a low hour level that the business might as well hire people full time, or have it scale or something.
- Oh yeah, and cut the business tax rate and/or start closing the international loopholes.  It's getting embarrassing.
- Finally, the most socialist idea I have:  Historically the US Military was the single largest source of skilled craftsmen.  Today it's much more vertical, as in people are more likely to come out of the military and get a government job/contract position working with the military.  As such, I think that a sort of 'job core' designed to give young adults skills while doing something useful for the USA wouldn't be a bad idea for those that college is not actually the best choice for(yet).  It's getting to the point that a skilled welder, electrician, or maintainer can earn as much or more than many college graduates.  With those skills they're also well set up to go into business for themselves, extending the middle class.  Look at it as an investment for the future - the cost of employing and training them for 4-6 years can easily be paid through the increased income taxes they'll pay over the years, not to mention any avoided welfare payments...

Easily?  HAHAHAHA!   No, it's pretty much the opposite of 'easy'.  If anything I think that the programs need to be set up to react more or less automatically to shifting economic indicators, because humans are always too slow and/or engage in counter-productive actions.  For example - housing boom.  I think the correct action would have been to work to pop the bubble early, not artificially prop up home prices afterwards.

Government policies/taxation are the exact reasons why noone is willing to create jobs in our country.
Want to massively stimulate the economy, have full employment, and increase wages/buying power of workers?
Cut all levels of government down to 1/10th its current  size and abolish the income tax.
Too radical? A rational person would think the stimulus circus of the last 6 years is too radical and is flirting with economic suicide- and they would be right.

Another 'government 'program or 'policy' is just pissing into the wind.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

birdman

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2014, 08:15:32 AM »
Anti-automation initiative?
Why not call just call it the anti-dog-eats-dog initiative?

Firethorn

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2014, 05:32:48 AM »
First Brimic, it's something of a pet peeve of mine when people quote an entire post for a small amount of response.

Government policies/taxation are the exact reasons why noone is willing to create jobs in our country.

I kind of mentioned that myself, didn't I?  Reducing policies is 'removing barriers', and cutting taxes is second to last on the list.   Cutting 'all levels' of government by 90%?  Not anytime soon, I'm afraid.  First we have the promises to the current generations of workers - who due to the taxation policies of our ancestors left them without the capital(for the most part) to retire without said assistance.  The last 6 years of stimulus are positively TAME compared to that.

I certainly hope to eventually reduce the size of government, but it's mostly by increasing efficiency or setting up alternatives, which takes time and  costs resources.

birdman

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Re: Seattle: poster child for the $ 15 minimum wage
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2014, 07:36:42 AM »
I certainly hope to eventually reduce the size of government, but it's mostly by increasing efficiency or setting up alternatives, which takes time and  costs resources.

Only in government does improving efficiency and setting up alternatives cost more money. 
I think you are missing a key aspect of government spending in that it doesn't go away, and anything "temporary" merely becomes a new baseline.  See the 2009 "temporary" stimulus...has government spending gone down since then?  If you look up the graphs the administration released that spring, it was supposed to be back "down" in 2-3 years.  Well, its 5 years later, has it gone down?