Author Topic: On Executive/CEO Pay  (Read 17885 times)

ilbob

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2008, 05:23:48 PM »
Most highly paid executives actually earn their pay. Despite the widespread belief to the contrary, there are very, very few people with the mixture of skills, temperment, and intangibles that make for a good executive. My guess is that the number is about as many as superstar QBs, and there are typical no more than a handful of those at a time. Look at how something as simple as picking a QB can go south. Picking a CEO for a huge company is infinitely harder, and the job is self is orders of magnitude harder.

It is also true that a fair number of top level executives got hired of late that turned out to be busts. The shareholders suffered greatly in those cases, and in a fair number of cases took out their wrath on the board.

There is no magic formula for what a good executive is worth. Some situations are just hopeless but someone has to make an effort, and BODs are every bit as susceptible to a silver tongued devil as anyone else.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2008, 09:39:55 PM »
Quote
I think Paddy and SS both make too much and their pay should be regulated! Wage ===> police

Uh, I'm unemployed and have zero earned income.  But if you want to guarantee me some monthly/annual minimum, that's ok.  grin

Paddy, I'll double what you're not making now.  Hell, I'll triple it and give you extra time off.  grin
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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pinoyinus

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2008, 05:15:21 AM »
Quote
I asked for proof of his statement.  And IIRC, the Industrial Revolution is what help made this country what it is today
- scout26

Wow, I thought this point was common knowledge.  Anyone reading any decent business magazine or newspaper would know this is a fact!  Several studies and articles have been written comparing the ratio between the average CEO pay and the avergae US income.  Here's a few links:

http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_20060627
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10002825.shtml
http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/26/news/economy/ceo_pay/
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/CEOsNearRecordPayRatios.aspx
http://www.businessweek.com/1997/16/b35231.htm
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/executivepay06.html


pinoyinus

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2008, 05:28:03 AM »
I believe that it is goverment's role to promote a level playing field where opportunities are open to all who are willing to put their time and talents to work.

Negative. The purpose of government is to secure liberty and personal freedoms. Promoting a level playing field is slang for socialism....

This would have been a perfect justifictaion for stock insider trading.  So why do most people disagree that insider trading is not good and that the govt. should regulate the stock market?  The reason is that the govt. is also there to promote justice. 

pinoyinus

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2008, 06:03:54 AM »
Pinoyinos wrote, "I believe that it is goverment's role to promote a level playing field where opportunities are open to all who are willing to put their time and talents to work."

With all due respect Pinoyinos, your candidate, Hillary Clinton lost to a black man shocked Obamo.  Her brand of socialism which includes statements like yours is a perfect example of thinking from a minority of Americans, never to which will gain much support and rightfully so.

Too many people make statements but do not ponder the consequences. 

Most people do not want the responsiblities of management or ownership.  For these individuals, they come into work, get a fair wage and go home each night.  If they wanted more, they would work for it, invest for it and pay the repercussions of the added responsibilities.  Leadership is easy to talk about, but difficult to be successful at unless you possess some special talents.

Only in America are we all free to achieve what we work for, I for one have a great respect for the average hourly wage earner.  He is America...and they should be honored every chance we get...





Hillary is not my candidate.  I can think for myself.  I don't take cues or talking points from politicians and mouth them.  In my original post, I stated my reasons for belieiving the way I do about CEO pay.  One of those reasons is borne out of my personal experience.  And BTW, I did leave that company.  It was said that "they (average hourly wage earner) should be honored every chance we get".  Do we really honor them by allowing boards/CEO's to cut their pay while they give executives even bigger raises and stock options?  (as in the case of NWA)  Do we honor them by saying "this will correct itself.  In the meantime tough luck!"?  CEO's and the average employees made seperate contracts with the corporations - fine.  But we all know that CEOs and executives get bonuses on top of what is stated in their employment contracts.  In my personal experience, as well as from a number of people I've spoken to, the bonuses didn't trickle down to the rank and file.  Given that some employees performed poorly, I guess I can understand if some employees don't get a bonus.  But when every non-managerial employee doesn't get a bonus at a time when all the executives do, I think it's tantamount to spitting on the employee's face rather than honoring them.  How do you justify that?  Bonuses and stock options are good only for CEOs, executives and managers but not for other employees?

MechAg94

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2008, 07:10:31 AM »
No matter how the govt regulated those companies, some companies will still suck to work for and will not take care of their employees.  Regulating CEO pay will not change that.  They have a bunch of lawyers at their disposal anyway and will find a way around it.
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JonnyB

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2008, 10:38:54 AM »
'Twas quoted:

"It was said that "they (average hourly wage earner) should be honored every chance we get".  Do we really honor them by allowing boards/CEO's to cut their pay while they give executives even bigger raises and stock options?  (as in the case of NWA)  Do we honor them by saying "this will correct itself.  In the meantime tough luck!"?"

The wager earner *is* honored. Every payday, they get what they earned. They agree to work; the company agrees to pay them a certain wage for their work. If that wage is insufficient, the worker is free to go where the pay is higher. The free market really, really does work.

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RevDisk

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2008, 04:35:02 PM »
Quote
I think Paddy and SS both make too much and their pay should be regulated! Wage ===> police

Uh, I'm unemployed and have zero earned income.  But if you want to guarantee me some monthly/annual minimum, that's ok.  grin

Start making over $50k and watch how much of your pay gets eaten away by taxes.  Hell, just the ones listed in your payroll stub are bad enough.  The multitude of 'invisible' taxes are probably roughly equal to the taxes you see taken out.  While there are plenty of bad CEO's that run the company into the ground and collect insane amounts of money for it, the solution of government regulation would be worse than the current situation.   

Here's a more practical solution.  Do not work for a company that plays the golden parachute game.  And don't invest money in it.  Trust me, ALL boards watch the stock price like a hawk.  If it tanks, the CEO is out the door.
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Firethorn

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2008, 06:04:51 AM »
Here's a more practical solution.  Do not work for a company that plays the golden parachute game.  And don't invest money in it.  Trust me, ALL boards watch the stock price like a hawk.  If it tanks, the CEO is out the door.

Alternatively, actually pay attention to the doings of the board of directors for the companies you invest in, and vote them out if they start playing golden parachute.

What you're suggesting is along the lines of telling people to move out of high crime areas, rather than suggesting how to solve the crime problem.

pinoyinus

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2008, 11:51:25 AM »
Here's a more practical solution.  Do not work for a company that plays the golden parachute game.  And don't invest money in it.  Trust me, ALL boards watch the stock price like a hawk.  If it tanks, the CEO is out the door.

The above suggestion is not a practical solution.  It just wouldn't work.  As a middle class person holding stocks in your brokerage account, what's the most number of stocks do you own of one company?  Carl Icahn, a billionaire investor holding hundreds of thousands of shares (if not millions), is now trying to oust the Yahoo board for its failure to handle the Microsoft offer.  Although pundits are giving him a 50-50 chance, it is not a slam dunk by any measure.  This is Carl Icahn with billions of dollars in resources and yet not a slam dunk!  Based on that, how much of a chance do you think does a Joe SixPack have with stock holder activism?  C'mon stop living in a dream world.  The institutional investors / big financial companies, who hold a bulk of shares, have a special relationship with the boards.  It is the boards who give business to them (for loans, stock underwriting, auditing deals, etc.) so there's not much of a chance that they'll go against the boards either.  This is part of the reason why Enron was able to do what it did.  Most of the big banks looked the other way while Enron bilked shareholders of their money including its own employees.  The rank and file employees of Enron lost big but most of the executives (except for those who got prosecuted) made out pretty nicely. 

LAK

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2008, 12:04:08 AM »
If McCain truly said he would do this he has about put an end to his bid altogether. It's been a pathetic show anyway; a pity he doesn't just drop out and the "party" replace him with a real opponent.

pinoyinus
Quote
Most of the big banks looked the other way while Enron bilked shareholders of their money including its own employees.  The rank and file employees of Enron lost big but most of the executives (except for those who got prosecuted) made out pretty nicely
Astounding. I would never have thought. Any idea which banks it were who took part in this awful affair?

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pinoyinus

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2008, 05:28:01 AM »
LAK,

Quote
Astounding. I would never have thought. Any idea which banks it were who took part in this awful affair?

Citigroup was one of them.  Here's a link to a business artice: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/27/business/27enron.html?ref=business

You might say that there was no conviction.  Yet, which innocent company would be willing to pay $1.66 billion for no reason?

pinoyinus

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2008, 05:31:23 AM »
LAK,

Here's another where the SEC settled with both JP Morgan and Citigroup.  Link: http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2003-87.htm.  You can find a lot more if you google it yourself.

old school

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2008, 07:47:51 AM »


Except that the employer is actually the public shareholder, not the board of directors.  The money doesn't belong to either the board or the CEO or the management-it's not their money, yet they spend it on each other as if it were.

Different standards apply when you are playing with other people's money, even in a free market, imho.

You are the first one to completely nail it in this thread.
The problem with what is going on in many of these large corporations is the terrible disservice to its shareholders. It used to be that all board room decisions were made for long term feasibility. Executives job was to insure the future of the company for the investors and the employees that contribute to the success of the company. Now it can be  be equated to a smash and dash robbery. Executives are looking for signing bonuses, big non performance based salaries and huge golden parachutes.

The question you have to ask is why? Why would the board hire somebody with this type of pay package instead of a performance based pay package with long term residuals?
The answer is greed and wallstreet pressure. Board members have become more concerned with today's stock prices than the long term success of thier company. They are literally looking to hire a name that will make thier stock go up as opposed to hiring a man who can make thier company better. It is an absolute mess.
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Scout26

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2008, 12:56:39 PM »


Except that the employer is actually the public shareholder, not the board of directors.  The money doesn't belong to either the board or the CEO or the management-it's not their money, yet they spend it on each other as if it were.

Different standards apply when you are playing with other people's money, even in a free market, imho.

You are the first one to completely nail it in this thread.
The problem with what is going on in many of these large corporations is the terrible disservice to its shareholders. It used to be that all board room decisions were made for long term feasibility. Executives job was to insure the future of the company for the investors and the employees that contribute to the success of the company. Now it can be  be equated to a smash and dash robbery. Executives are looking for signing bonuses, big non performance based salaries and huge golden parachutes.

The question you have to ask is why? Why would the board hire somebody with this type of pay package instead of a performance based pay package with long term residuals?
The answer is greed and wallstreet pressure. Board members have become more concerned with today's stock prices than the long term success of thier company. They are literally looking to hire a name that will make thier stock go up as opposed to hiring a man who can make thier company better. It is an absolute mess.

Yep, because of the differences in the way dividends and captial gains are taxed.   Dividends promote long term growth, capital gains are short term. 
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LAK

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2008, 01:35:09 AM »
pinoyinus,

Thanks; I did read much about the Enron affair, but missed the banks. I still recall the audio recording aired on national radio where some chuckling Enron slick made a reference to another concerning ".... those ______ little old ladies ... [etc]".

In addition to their crimes, it is the callous arrogance of these people that really bothers me. And to me, anything thing that warrants that kind of settlement ought to have some criminal charges and penalties for those at the highest levels. The callous arrogance of these people really bothers me.

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RevDisk

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2008, 08:30:46 PM »
Here's a more practical solution.  Do not work for a company that plays the golden parachute game.  And don't invest money in it.  Trust me, ALL boards watch the stock price like a hawk.  If it tanks, the CEO is out the door.

Alternatively, actually pay attention to the doings of the board of directors for the companies you invest in, and vote them out if they start playing golden parachute.

What you're suggesting is along the lines of telling people to move out of high crime areas, rather than suggesting how to solve the crime problem.

When solving the existing problem creates worse problems...  Well, whatcha gonna do?   Government manditory salary caps are a bad idea.   Re-structuring the rules for publically held companies during a recession ain't a great idea.  Problem is, for any actions short of outright felonies, ousting directors on the board is rather difficult.  Any sizeable company is either owned by a very large group of investors, or the majority of their stock is owned by financial institutes.  See pinoyinus' post about Yahoo.

My suggestions were offered to the individual reader.  As a way for THEM not to get burned.  Not to fix the system.  Because I'll admit it, I don't see any really decent solution that wouldn't cause signficant damage.
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pinoyinus

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2008, 05:24:13 AM »
I wouldn't recommend that govt' use some arbitrary number as a cap.  I also don't agree that private companies should fall under the same regulation.  Private companies should be able to do what they want.  Perhaps a cap based on a multiple of average rank and file salary.  Let's say 100.  So if the average employee salary is $50K, then the CEO can make $5M.  I don't think $5M is a bad income for a CEO.  The CEO can still make $50M if he's really talented (although that would mean that the average rank & file salary should be making $500K).  There may be other soluitions out there that can come from far more brilliant minds.  But the current situation is just not good for stock holders, and employees. 

seeker_two

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2008, 06:50:20 AM »
I just wish I could be paid so well for making such incompetent decisions.....

...currently, I have to do it for free.....  sad
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Firethorn

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2008, 07:36:01 AM »
I wouldn't recommend that govt' use some arbitrary number as a cap.  I also don't agree that private companies should fall under the same regulation.  Private companies should be able to do what they want.  Perhaps a cap based on a multiple of average rank and file salary.  Let's say 100.  So if the average employee salary is $50K, then the CEO can make $5M.  I don't think $5M is a bad income for a CEO.  The CEO can still make $50M if he's really talented (although that would mean that the average rank & file salary should be making $500K).  There may be other soluitions out there that can come from far more brilliant minds.  But the current situation is just not good for stock holders, and employees. 

I think that it'd screw up more stuff than it'd solve.  For example, how would you rate stock options and such?  Why should the CEO of Walmart(or other large company) make less than the CEO of a small engineering company(for example)?

I seen an excessive tendency to 'contract' out low wage labor.  Rather than Walmart hiring workers directly, I see them only hiring managers and up, and creating shell companies to get their sales people and such.  They already did it with cleaning crews, after all.

pinoyinus

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2008, 08:16:03 AM »
Quote
I think that it'd screw up more stuff than it'd solve.  For example, how would you rate stock options and such?  Why should the CEO of Walmart(or other large company) make less than the CEO of a small engineering company(for example)?

I think the basis should be total compensation.  If options are hard/impossible to quantify at the time of the award, then give the rank and file employees either stocks/cash at the time of excercise.  Why should the CEO of Walmart make less than the CEO of a small engineering company?  I don't know.  But if CEO A makes $100M and CEO B makes $150M, it's very hard to be outraged at how bad CEO A is getting it.  The situation just isn't the same when you have the rank and file employees making $30K and a CEO making $100M+.  Take the case of Occidental Petroleum and IAC Interactive where the CEOs made $322 million and $295 million respectively  see http://www.forbes.com/2007/05/03/ceo-executive-compensation-lead-07ceo-cx_sd_0503ceocompensationintro.html.  I doubt if the average income in these companies are in the vicinity of $200K.  But assuming that it is, that's a whopping ratio of 1:1500!


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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2008, 09:11:45 AM »
The owners of the company are the only ones who should decide how much ANY employee makes. In a corporate structure, the shareholders trust the board with that responsibility. Contrary to many assertions on this thread, large shareholders are very much able to influence the decisions of the board and also who sits on the board. The wishes of the majority are appropriately represented.

Yes, it very often means that the minority or individual shareholders get screwed, but if they don't like it, they don't have to invest. No one is forced to buy stock in any company.

By the way, the executives at many corporations are also often some of the largest shareholders.

old school

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2008, 03:51:37 PM »
Here is an article by Ralph Nader that addresses this topic directly.


Overpaying CEOs
by Ralph Nader
July 1, 2008

The worst top management of giant corporations in American history is also by far the most hugely paid. That contradiction applies as well to the Boards of Directors of these global companies.

Consider these illustrations:

The bosses of General Motors (GM) have presided over the worst decline of GM shares in the last fifty years, the lowering of GM bonds to junk status, the largest money losses and layoffs of tens of thousands of workers. Yet these top executives are still in place and still receiving much more pay than their successful counterparts at Toyota.

GMs stock valuation is under $7 billion dollars, while Toyota is valued at over $160 billion. Toyota, having passed GM in worldwide sales, is about to catch up with and pass GM in sales inside the United States itself!

GMs executives stayed with their gas guzzling SUVs way beyond the warning signs. Their vehicles were uninspiring and technologically stagnant in various ways. They were completely unprepared for Toyotas hybrid cars and for the upward spiral in gasoline prices. Theyre cashing their lucrative monthly checks with the regular votes of confidence by their hand-picked Board of Directors.

About the same appraisal can be made of Ford Motor Co., which at least brought in new management to try to do something about that once famous companys sinking status.

Then there are the financial companies. Top management on Wall Street has been beyond incompetent. Wild risk taking camouflaged for years by multi-tiered, complex, abstract financial instruments (generally called collateralized debt obligations) kept the joy ride going and going until the massive financial hot air balloon started plummeting. Finally told to leave their high posts, the CEOs of Merrill-Lynch and Citigroup took away tens of millions of severance pay while Wall Street turned into Layoff Street.

The banks, investment banks and brokerage firms have tanked to levels not seen since the 1929-30 collapse of the stock market. Citigroup, once valued at over $50 per share is now under $17 a share.

Washington Mutual  the nations largest savings bank chain was over $40 a share in 2007. Its reckless speculative binge has driven it down under $5 a share. Yet its CEO Kerry Killinger remains in charge, with the continuing support of his rubberstamp Board of Directors. A recent $8 billion infusion of private capital gave a sweetheart deal to these new investors at the excessive expense of the shareholders.

Countrywide, the infamous giant mortgage lender (subprime mortgages) is about to be taken over by Bank of America. Its CEO is taking away a reduced but still very generous compensation deal.

Meanwhile, all these banks and brokerage houses investment analysts are busy downgrading each others stock prospects.

Over at the multi-trillion dollar companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the shareholders have lost about 75 percent of their stock value in one year. Farcically regulated by the Department of Housing and Urban Affairs, Fannie and Freddie were run into the ground by taking on very shaky mortgages under the command of CEOs and their top executives who paid themselves enormous sums.

These two institutions were set up many years ago to provide liquidity in the housing and loan markets and thereby expand home ownership especially among lower income families. Instead, they turned themselves into casinos, taking advantage of an implied U.S. government guarantee.

The Fannie and Freddie bosses created another guarantee. They hired top appointees from both Republican and Democratic Administrations (such as Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick) and lathered them with tens of millions of dollars in executive compensation. In this way, they kept federal supervision at a minimum and held off efforts in Congress to toughen regulation. These executives are all gone now, enjoying their maharajan riches with impunity while pensions and mutual funds lose and lose and lose with no end in sight, short of a government-taxpayer bailout.

Over a year ago, leading financial analyst Henry Kaufman and very few others warned about undisciplined (read unregulated) and mis-pricing of lower quality assets. Mr. Kaufman wrote in the Wall Street Journal of August 15, 2007 that If some institutions are really too big to fail, then other means of discipline will have to be found.

There are ways to prevent such crashes. In the nineteen thirties, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt chose stronger regulation, creating the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and several bank regulatory agencies. He saved the badly listing capitalist ship.

Today, there is no real momentum in a frozen Washington, D.C. to bring regulation up to date. To the contrary, in 1999, Congress led by Senator McCains Advisor, former Senator Phil Gramm and the Clinton Administration led by Robert Rubin, Secretary of the Treasury, and soon to join Citibank, de-regulated and ended the wall between investment banks and commercial banking known as the Glass-Steagall Act.

Clinton and Congress opened the floodgates to rampant speculation without even requiring necessary and timely disclosures for the benefit of institutional and individual investors.

Now the entire U.S. economy is at risk. The domino theory is getting less theoretical daily. Without investors obtaining more legal authority as owners over their out of control company officers and Boards of Directors, and without strong regulation, corporate capitalism cannot be saved from its toxic combination of endless greed and maximum powerwithout responsibility.

Uncle Sam, the deeply deficit ridden bailout man, may have another taxpayers-to-the-rescue operation for Wall Street. But dont count on stretching the American dollar much more without devastating consequences to and from global financial markets in full panic.

Consider the U.S. dollar like an elastic band. You can keep stretching this rubber band but suddenly it BREAKS. Our country needs action NOW from Washington, D.C.

We now know who the real man is.

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Re: On Executive/CEO Pay
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2008, 03:49:07 PM »
You're quoting Ralph Nader as some kind of economic expert?
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