Where Does Apartheid Begin?

[AZRedhawk44]

We know about South Africa.  Racial disenfranchisement, multiple tiers of citizenship.

Some people think that the Israeli/Palestinian situation is another example of Apartheid.  That Palestinians are not granted (I hate this language but it's shorthand for getting the point across) the same rights as Israelis.  The difference being a function of religious / tribal identity.  Evidently if you're a documented "Jew" anywhere in the world, you can have dual citizenship with Israel and your birth country, but if you want Israeli citizenship and are not a Jew, you must disavow any other citizenship.  And there were some nasty tricks played by the founders of the State of Israel to deliberately disenfranchise Muslims living in the territory during the formation of the State.  Those nasty tricks trickle down to the grandchildren of those disenfranchised 75 years ago, so that they are supposedly also not eligible for citizenship.

I don't know lots about the Israel/Palestine thing, and I don't really have a bone in that fight.  I'm more interested in the notion of "Apartheid" as a form of international attack on an otherwise "Democratic" process.  The UN loves "Democracy" but hates "Apartheid."  But Democracy is empowered to deal with an influx of outsiders, and generally democratic voting environments don't care for a bunch of outsiders changing things on them.

Here in the US... where does Apartheid begin?

We joke in Arizona about "Don't California my Arizona" and "Welcome to Arizona, now go back home."  We jeer Californians that buy houses and then run away from moving here when they find out there might not be water rights to the house 100 years from now.  None of that is legislated or involving violence or disenfranchising though.

What about voting laws for interstate moves?  If you still have an out of State license plate on your car, you cannot vote in your new State?  Or no voting in your new State until you've had one full calendar year as being subject to its taxes?  Anything along those lines, to dull the impact of "outsiders" voting and California-ing up your Idaho.

Homeschool regulation?  Could this be perceived as a form of Apartheid?  Having State approved curriculum, or at least particular curriculum that the State disapproves?  This could the the crushing of a perspective/philosophy that the State (and the dominant party in power) is fundamentally opposed to.  Not religious/tribal... but for many (especially the non-religious) politics is religion.  Or for others (religious extremists like Muslims), religion must be represented through politics.  Being unable to propagate your ideas on parity with the State's approved ideas is a serious disadvantage in keeping your ideas alive.

What about the blatant gerrymandering of most voting districts?  Rather than generic squares, voting precinct maps often look more like a mash-up of jigsaw puzzle pieces and Japanese characters.  All to protect particular ideologies, or at least particular ideologues in power.  Do you think affluence would migrate, or poverty migrate, if gerrymandering was immediately made null and void and all vote precincts could have no more than 360 degrees of angle of the sum of its angles and must be square or rectangular on a map, with no side being more than 50% longer than another and all angles must be 90 degrees?

Can Apartheid be something that transcends race/tribe/religious attributes?  That it is applied at a philosophical or political level?

[HankB]

Apartheid? You want Apartheid? Look for the number of Jews and Christians in leadership positions in the governments of Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Qatar, Yemen, United Arab Emirates, Dubai, North Korea, Communist China, the Gaza Strip, Syria . . . shall I continue?

[sumpnz]

Gentiles living in Israel have, afaik, rights/privileges analogous to immigrants in the USA lacking a green card.  Not the same, but relative to citizens a similar degree of reduction.

Wrt to Arabs in Israel, and any “dirty tricks” regarding ability to obtain citizenship, bear in mind that, especially in the ‘40’s the Arabs would have used a loose immigration policy to overwhelm the Jews and vote them out of Israel if they could have.

Israel is not an “apartheid” state.  The Arab countries around them are much closer to such an adjective.  Them calling Israel apartheid is like the left here calling conservatives racist.  It’s pure gaslighting and projection.

[K Frame]

I always thought one hallmark of apartheid was that it was a system used by a racial minority to disenfranchise and control a substantially larger racial majority.

That's not even remotely the case in Israel.

[De Selby]

Gentiles living in Israel have, afaik, rights/privileges analogous to immigrants in the USA lacking a green card.  Not the same, but relative to citizens a similar degree of reduction.

Wrt to Arabs in Israel, and any “dirty tricks” regarding ability to obtain citizenship, bear in mind that, especially in the ‘40’s the Arabs would have used a loose immigration policy to overwhelm the Jews and vote them out of Israel if they could have.

Israel is not an “apartheid” state.  The Arab countries around them are much closer to such an adjective.  Them calling Israel apartheid is like the left here calling conservatives racist.  It’s pure gaslighting and projection.

You can’t be serious. Israel forbids inter religious marriages, doesn’t recognise the property rights of specific racial groups in its territory, and does so all in explicit legal frameworks.

I know many South Africans of both sides who have visited Israel - they universally agree that its practices are harsher towards non Israelis than the RSA was towards black people. The Bantustans had more rights and better conditions than Arab Israelis, not to mention non citizens.

[De Selby]

I always thought one hallmark of apartheid was that it was a system used by a racial minority to disenfranchise and control a substantially larger racial majority.

That's not even remotely the case in Israel.

Who are the enfranchised arabs (that would be a majority) you’re referring to in that country?

[K Frame]

Who are the enfranchised arabs (that would be a majority) you’re referring to in that country?

Where is the Arab population majority in Israel that is being repressed by the Jewish minority population? Arabs make up roughly 21% of Israel's population.

There isn't one. So, no aparthied.

Even if you add the population of Gaza to that number, Arabs are still a minority population in Israel.

This crap that Arabs handily outnumber Jews in the Israeli state and thus are being disenfranchised and subject to repressive apartheid restrictions is just that. CRAP.

[De Selby]

Where is the Arab population majority in Israel that is being repressed by the Jewish minority population? Arabs make up roughly 21% of Israel's population.

There isn't one. So, no aparthied.

Even if you add the population of Gaza to that number, Arabs are still a minority population in Israel.

This crap that Arabs handily outnumber Jews in the Israeli state and thus are being disenfranchised and subject to repressive apartheid restrictions is just that. CRAP.

If you add Gaza and the West Bank arabs are a majority. How do you explain the explicit legal discrimination against them and also the 21 percent of Israeli citizens who are Arab? Hahaha mate the Israelis bulldoze entire Arab towns and then develop the land for settlement by immigrants solely on the basis of their race and religion.

Say what you will about the war - you cannot be serious about the Israeli state being anything less than apartheid South Africa. The Afrikaans were indisputably better towards their residents than Israel.

[cordex]

Say what you will about the war - you cannot be serious about the Israeli state being anything less than apartheid South Africa. The Afrikaans were indisputably better towards their residents than Israel.

Typical De Selby. Simplistic, factually incorrect, and lacking either context or nuance.

Within Israel's pre-1967 borders Arab Israelis have essentially full citizenship rights. This was not true of black South Africans under apartheid. Black South Africans couldn't vote, couldn't run for office, couldn't travel freely, didn't receive equivalent education, healthcare, or opportunities for employment. The same is not true for Arab Israelis.

In the West Bank it's complicated by multiple administrative areas, some controlled by Palestinians, some by Israelis, some shared. The Israeli settlements are by and large in Area C, an area controlled by Israel. Specifically which "entire Arab towns" do you think were bulldozed to make way for Jewish settlement? I'm aware of sporadic demolitions (usually pretextually because they were built without building permits) but not entire towns being destroyed. Bil'in and Susiya are the closest I can find, but they aren't entire towns that were bulldozed. I think you're making up this line about "entire Arab towns" that were bulldozed to make way for Israeli settlements.

In Gaza, Hamas is in control, so you'll have to take up your issues about discrimination with those fine gentlemen. Israel controls access to and from Gaza, but not what goes on in the strip.

In East Jerusalem most of the Palestinians are permanent residents, but not actual citizens.

Apartheid was based in racial superiority, whereas in Israel the issues are largely political and territorial, to say nothing of the long history of violence and terror. It's hard to imagine any modern nation tolerating the kind of ongoing violence that Israel has faced.

Finally, considering its neighbors Israel offers a significant amount of representation and legal protection for its religious and ethnic minorities. I'm not saying Israel is perfect or that Israel is where I'd want to live, but singling them out as particularly heinous requires intentionally ignoring just about everyone around them and holding them to a unique standard.

To pressure test your position, would you rather be an Muslim Arab living in Israel, or a Jew living in Gaza or Area A of the West Bank?

[dogmush]

Say what you will about the war - you cannot be serious about the Israeli state being anything less than apartheid South Africa. The Afrikaans were indisputably better towards their residents than Israel.

Remind me again how many black folks were in the parliament of South Africa during Apartheid?

[De Selby]

Typical De Selby. Simplistic, factually incorrect, and lacking either context or nuance.

Within Israel's pre-1967 borders Arab Israelis have essentially full citizenship rights. This was not true of black South Africans under apartheid. Black South Africans couldn't vote, couldn't run for office, couldn't travel freely, didn't receive equivalent education, healthcare, or opportunities for employment. The same is not true for Arab Israelis.

You just straight made that up. That’s absolutely not true, and many Arabs have been expelled from, not been able to vote in, and do not have the same rights as the rest of Israel in those borders. I don’t even think there’s a source that alleges that - you just straight invented that claim.

In the West Bank it's complicated by multiple administrative areas, some controlled by Palestinians, some by Israelis, some shared. The Israeli settlements are by and large in Area C, an area controlled by Israel. Specifically which "entire Arab towns" do you think were bulldozed to make way for Jewish settlement? I'm aware of sporadic demolitions (usually pretextually because they were built without building permits) but not entire towns being destroyed. Bil'in and Susiya are the closest I can find, but they aren't entire towns that were bulldozed. I think you're making up this line about "entire Arab towns" that were bulldozed to make way for Israeli settlements.

Again, you just straight made this up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

In Gaza, Hamas is in control, so you'll have to take up your issues about discrimination with those fine gentlemen. Israel controls access to and from Gaza, but not what goes on in the strip.

In East Jerusalem most of the Palestinians are permanent residents, but not actual citizens.

Apartheid was based in racial superiority, whereas in Israel the issues are largely political and territorial, to say nothing of the long history of violence and terror. It's hard to imagine any modern nation tolerating the kind of ongoing violence that Israel has faced.

See Wikipedia link. I defy you to articulate any reason to other than race or religion for the deprivation of property rights, marriage rights, or civil liberties.

Finally, considering its neighbors Israel offers a significant amount of representation and legal protection for its religious and ethnic minorities. I'm not saying Israel is perfect or that Israel is where I'd want to live, but singling them out as particularly heinous requires intentionally ignoring just about everyone around them and holding them to a unique standard.

To pressure test your position, would you rather be an Muslim Arab living in Israel, or a Jew living in Gaza or Area A of the West Bank?

This is a nonsense question. It’s like asking whether you’d rather be a Khosa in Praetoria or an Afrikaans in a Bantustan, or a slave in 1860 Richmond versus a white person in 1860 Haiti.

[De Selby]

Remind me again how many black folks were in the parliament of South Africa during Apartheid?

They had their own sovereignty in bantustans! Hahaha again, you can’t be serious

[K Frame]

Remind me again how many black folks were in the parliament of South Africa during Apartheid?

About as many Jews and Christians are in government positions in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Egypt, Syria... and so forth and so on...

You know, those wonderful, inclusive, loving, enlightened, tolerant, theocratic states that have spent most of their history plotting the absolute destruction of the Israeli state.

But that's OK and wonderful to people who lean left and dismiss outright terrorism as misunderstandings.

[cordex]

You just straight made that up. That’s absolutely not true, and many Arabs have been expelled from, not been able to vote in, and do not have the same rights as the rest of Israel in those borders. I don’t even think there’s a source that alleges that - you just straight invented that claim.

  Are you actually unaware of Arab Israeli citizens?  Wow.  Impressive.

Again, you just straight made this up. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement

And what specifically about that paragraph do you think I made up?
Speaking of "straight made this up", which towns were bulldozed again?

See Wikipedia link. I defy you to articulate any reason to other than race of religion for the deprivation of property rights, marriage rights, or civil liberties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence

This is a nonsense question. It’s like asking whether you’d rather be a Khosa in Praetoria or an Afrikaans in a Bantustan, or a slave in 1860 Richmond versus a white person in 1860 Haiti.

So just to clarify, your opinion of Palestinian treatment of Jews is equivalent to your opinion of Jewish treatment of Arabs?

[De Selby]

About as many Jews and Christians are in government positions in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Egypt, Syria... and so forth and so on...

You know, those wonderful, inclusive, loving, enlightened, tolerant, theocratic states that have spent most of their history plotting the absolute destruction of the Israeli state.

But that's OK and wonderful to people who lean left and dismiss outright terrorism as misunderstandings.

Leaving aside the fact that Jews have constitutional members of parliament in Iran, I don’t see the point - Sudan is probably more *expletive deleted*it for human rights than all of these places. What does that fact have to do with racial and religious discrimination anywhere else? Does the fact that those places are worse than Russia mean Ukrainians should be happy with Russian rule?

It’s funny how the universal truths of the Declaration of Independence lose their self evidence so quickly when you change the race of the men involved.

[dogmush]

They had their own sovereignty in bantustans! Hahaha again, you can’t be serious

Right....Which I think we all agree was kinda bullshit?

Whereas there are currently Arab members of the Knesset.

I'm not an defender of the Israeli government, as I said in the other thread I have a hard time giving a *expletive deleted*it about these two groups killing each other, but "worse than South Africa during Apartheid" seems to be an unsupportable position at even the cursory level.

Hell, They seem to be more even with current South Africa than Apartheid South Africa.

[De Selby]

  Are you actually unaware of Arab Israeli citizens?  Wow.  Impressive.

No, I’m unaware of anyone claiming all arabs in the pre 1967 border got citizenship. That’s just straight untrue. You made it up.

And what specifically about that paragraph do you think I made up?

That there were no towns bulldozed for settlements outside the West Bank or Gaza. Many are listed at the link.

Speaking of "straight made this up", which towns were bulldozed again?

Again, many listed at link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence
So just to clarify, your opinion of Palestinian treatment of Jews is equivalent to your opinion of Jewish treatment of Arabs?

I’m not sure if this is dishonest or made up. I made zero comment about Palestinian treatment of Jews.

[De Selby]

Right....Which I think we all agree was kinda bullshit?

Whereas there are currently Arab members of the Knesset.

I'm not an defender of the Israeli government, as I said in the other thread I have a hard time giving a *expletive deleted*it about these two groups killing each other, but "worse than South Africa during Apartheid" seems to be an unsupportable position at even the cursory level.

Hell, They seem to be more even with current South Africa than Apartheid South Africa.

Ask a South African who lived in apartheid. The conditions of the majority were worse for the majority in Israel according to all I’ve met. The RSA definitely gave better economic amenity to the Bantustans.

[dogmush]

Ask a South African who lived in apartheid. The conditions of the majority were worse than the majority in Israel according to all I’ve met. The RSA definitely gave better economic amenity to the Bantustans.

Wait.  Now I'm confused. This statement makes no sense.

Are you saying that the conditions of the Majority in Apartheid South Africa were worse than the [Jewish] Majority in modern day Israel?  I don't think anyone would argue that.

Or are you saying that the conditions of the Majority in Apartheid South Africa were better than the current conditions of the Israeli Arab [Minority]?  Because that seemed to be what you were arguing until just a second ago.

[De Selby]

Wait.  Now I'm confused. This statement makes no sense.

Are you saying that the conditions of the Majority in Apartheid South Africa were worse than the [Jewish] Majority in modern day Israel?  I don't think anyone would argue that.

Or are you saying that the conditions of the Majority in Apartheid South Africa were better than the current conditions of the Israeli Arab [Minority]?  Because that seemed to be what you were arguing until just a second ago.

Typo. The black South Africans had better treatment than Palestinians in Israel under apartheid.

[cordex]

No, I’m unaware of anyone claiming all arabs in the pre 1967 border got citizenship. That’s just straight untrue. You made it up.

No, what I actually said was: "Within Israel's pre-1967 borders Arab Israelis have essentially full citizenship rights."  This is true.  Not whatever nonsense you're "straight making up" due to a lack of reading comprehension.

That there were no towns bulldozed for settlements outside the West Bank or Gaza. Many are listed at the link.

So ... again ... which "entire towns" were demolished for Jewish settlements?  Wasn't that your claim?  I'm not asking you to tell me to dig through wikipedia and try to find them, I'm asking what are the names of the Arab towns that were bulldozed.

I’m not sure if this is dishonest or made up. I made zero comment about Palestinian treatment of Jews.

You seemed to be arguing that there was some sort of equivalence in treatment.

[AZRedhawk44]

Back on the topic, as much as I love thread drift...

When is apartheid real, and when is it foreign meddling?

[cordex]

Back on the topic, as much as I love thread drift...

When is apartheid real, and when is it foreign meddling?

None of your examples seem to even remotely match any definition of apartheid I've ever heard.

Apartheid refers to the racial segregation policies used by white South Africans to separate and oppress the black South Africans.  It isn't a catchall for bad things done by the government or groups.

[AZRedhawk44]

It's a racial test on the part of South Africa, yes.  But it's a religious test (if applicable) if levied against Israel.

Can one label political tests or philosophical tests to be Apartheid?

[cordex]

Can one label political tests or philosophical tests to be Apartheid?

Personally I think that's getting a little fast and loose with the idea of apartheid.

Also, while De may try to minimize the impact of apartheid and say that Israel is totally worse, it was actually pretty nasty.  All the examples you gave were minor in comparison and seems to minimize the term.  Sort of like calling an abusive police tasing a modern holocaust.