Author Topic: Where Does Apartheid Begin?  (Read 6602 times)

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2023, 04:04:41 PM »
Typo. The black South Africans had better treatment than Palestinians in Israel under apartheid.

You are so right, and their vile treatment totally justifies acts like this.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/40-babies-some-beheaded-found-israel-soldiers-hamas-attacked-village

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

De Selby

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2023, 07:07:06 PM »
You are so right, and their vile treatment totally justifies acts like this.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/40-babies-some-beheaded-found-israel-soldiers-hamas-attacked-village

It absolutely does not. Vile behaviour by combatants does not justify violence against innocent people.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2023, 07:11:41 PM »
No, what I actually said was: "Within Israel's pre-1967 borders Arab Israelis have essentially full citizenship rights."  This is true.  Not whatever nonsense you're "straight making up" due to a lack of reading comprehension.
So ... again ... which "entire towns" were demolished for Jewish settlements?  Wasn't that your claim?  I'm not asking you to tell me to dig through wikipedia and try to find them, I'm asking what are the names of the Arab towns that were bulldozed.
You seemed to be arguing that there was some sort of equivalence in treatment.


https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

There’s a long list of demolished towns and homes in there which should help give context to the wiki map.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

griz

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2023, 07:05:02 AM »

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

There’s a long list of demolished towns and homes in there which should help give context to the wiki map.

Being lazy, I was unwilling to read all that.  So I searched for the term "bulldoze".  As near as I can tell, the closest thing is they mention structures that have been bulldozed because they were built without permits.  I'll admit I had to use a clumsy search option, so maybe I missed the long list.  Would you point it out?
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dogmush

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2023, 07:11:44 AM »

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

There’s a long list of demolished towns and homes in there which should help give context to the wiki map.

Heh.  I was actually going to read that, but my employer has blocked the site labeling it "Hate and Racisim".  First time I've seen that label.

cordex

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2023, 07:51:37 AM »
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution

There’s a long list of demolished towns and homes in there which should help give context to the wiki map.
That was a good read, thank you.  I'm not convinced it is a particularly neutral source, but it certainly gives a valuable perspective.  Also, what it noteably doesn't do is give a long list of demolished towns.  As per your usual, you Googled for something wordy you thought you could pretend would back you and hoped no one would actually read it.

The only named place I saw in the posted site that had been demolished was al-Araqeeb, a small Bedouin village which has been demolished repeatedly with claims ranging from 150-200 times.  It was not bulldozed to make way for Jewish settlement, however.  Aerial imagery from 2023 is available here, notably lacking any Jewish settlement anywhere near it. The "residents" are Bedouins who also have homes elsewhere but rebuild the collection of tiny, essentially uninhabitable shacks and tents repeatedly strictly to make a political point.  Israel keeps tearing it down to make their own political point.

In other words, you straight made that up.

Again, I'm not praising Israel as a beacon of freedom except in contrast to everyone around them.  I believe they do handle the areas they control in the West Bank in a less than equitable manner.  I'd also note that I'm fairly certain the areas that fall under Palestinian control likewise don't issue very many building permits to Jews.  Or - you know - protect them from murder.

I feel empathy for Palestinians caught in the conflict between their chosen government and Israel as well as the Israelis caught in the conflict between their chosen government and the many entities working together to kill them.  However, if you're going to try to expand the definition of apartheid to apply to Israel, then the number of nations it would equally apply to would include India, China, Burma, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Syria, Turkey, Yemen, Iran, Iraq ... the list goes on and on and on.  Indeed, Australia, the UK, Canada, and the US might equally be on that list for relatively recent historical policies.  But of course the only modern nation you bother to accuse of apartheid is Israel.

MechAg94

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2023, 04:10:18 PM »
It seems to me that apartheid falls in with the collective Western guilt over slavery and colonialism and racism.  I find it hard to tie this in with Israel/Palestine.  Might be political similarities, but culturally and historically a bit different, IMO. 

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De Selby

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2023, 08:08:53 PM »
Cordex, from the linked report:

Quote
The Israeli government has also carried out discriminatory seizures of land inside Israel. Authorities have seized through different mechanisms at least 4.5 million dunams of land from Palestinians, according to historians, constituting 65 to 75 percent of all land owned by Palestinians before 1948 and 40 to 60 percent of the land that belonged to Palestinians who remained after 1948 and became citizens of Israel. Authorities in the early years of the state declared land belonging to displaced Palestinians as “absentee property” or “closed military zones,” then took it over, converted it to state land, and built Jewish communities there. Authorities continue to block Palestinian citizen landowners from accessing land that was confiscated from them. A 2003 government-commissioned report found that “the expropriation activities were clearly and explicitly harnessed to the interests of the Jewish majority” and that state lands, which constitute 93 percent of all land in Israel, effectively serve the objective of “Jewish settlement.” Since 1948, the government has authorized the creation of more than 900 “Jewish localities” in Israel, but it has allowed only a handful of government-planned townships and villages for Palestinians, created largely to concentrate previously displaced Bedouin communities living in the Negev.

And your specific reference to that one town includes this:

Quote
Israeli authorities demolished more than 10,000 Bedouin homes in the Negev between 2013 and 2019, according to government data. They razed one unrecognized village that challenged the expropriation of its lands, al-Araqib, 185 times.

Then there’s this (worth emphasising that Jerusalem is not part of the pre 67 border):

Quote
When Israel annexed East Jerusalem in 1967, it applied its 1952 Law of Entry to Palestinians who lived there and designated them as “permanent residents,” the same status afforded to a non-Jewish foreigner who moves to Israel. The Interior Ministry has revoked this status from at least 14,701 Palestinians since 1967, mostly for failing to prove a “center of life” in the city. A path to Israeli citizenship exists, but few apply and most who did in recent years were not granted citizenship. By contrast, Jewish Israelis in Jerusalem, including settlers in East Jerusalem, are citizens who do not have to prove connections to the city to maintain their status.

Demolishing 10,000 homes and leaving 3 percent of the land inside the pre 67 border to Palestinians seems to fit the bill as I described it. What do you think the appropriate Palestinian response should have been?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2023, 08:12:20 PM »
It seems to me that apartheid falls in with the collective Western guilt over slavery and colonialism and racism.  I find it hard to tie this in with Israel/Palestine.  Might be political similarities, but culturally and historically a bit different, IMO.

Do you think maybe the fact that most non-Palestinian residents of Israel are recent immigrants from Europe and the former USSR might have anything to do with the connection?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

dogmush

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2023, 08:58:20 PM »

Demolishing 10,000 homes and leaving 3 percent of the land inside the pre 67 border to Palestinians seems to fit the bill as I described it. What do you think the appropriate Palestinian response should have been?

Win a war.

Why has the West suddenly  decided that conquering land isn't real?  That's how the world works,  how it has worked, and how it will work for the foreseeable future.

Nation states conquer territory,  and then it's theirs.

cordex

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2023, 08:59:03 AM »
And your specific reference to that one town includes this:
First off, I'm entirely willing to believe that Israel is not letting the Bedouin live their traditional nomadic lifestyle, nor are they letting them build wherever they please.  I can also believe that some of this stems from a sense of cultural superiority or a desire to exert control over the Bedouin population.

All that said, I'd note that if those same Bedouin were to start to build shacks and tents on the outskirts of Sydney in an act of protest without building permission they'd likely be repeatedly razed as well.  Large homeless encampments in the US are regularly torn down as well.  In the case of the US homeless, that may actually be their only dwelling - unlike most of the Bedouin who do have homes elsewhere.  In fact, in most developed countries it is not legal to just build what you want where you want to build it even if you have historical ties to that land.  Where I used to live I couldn't build a shed on my own land but both of my neighbors were.  If I had built it I would have been fined and it would have been demolished.  Apartheid!  Injustice!  Entire towns bulldozed!

Even Australia's relatively generous Native Title provisions don't allow aboriginals to randomly start construction in areas their ancestors lived.

While the 10,000 number is very high, it would seem that many of those were likely the repeated demolitions in al-Araqib, or similar demolitions of shacks and tents set up elsewhere.  While I'm sure that some of these demolitions caused homelessness, it would appear that a significant number of the demolished structures are not actually used as residences, and certainly not sole residences.
Then there’s this (worth emphasising that Jerusalem is not part of the pre 67 border):
Yes, and?  It's unfair.  Probably infuriating for the Palestinians who live there.  I guess they could all become Jewish, naturalize, then later renounce their Judaism.  As long as their Palestinian neighbors allowed them to survive the conversion, that is.

What's more, this unfairness is downright common.  Germany's policy of Aussiedler und Spätaussiedler which establishes the right to return for Germanic descendants (even those who lived outside of Germany for generations) in contrast to the long term guest-worker residents of Turkish descent.  Greece, Finland, China, India, Japan, France ... all have preferential treatment when it comes to establishing citizenship for certain ethnic groups.  I think India even specifically excludes Muslims from their policy.  Jordan has revoked established citizenship from Palestinians.  Lebanon has refused Palestinians citizenship.  And so on.

I guess I'm just not all that shocked that a nation might include racial, ethnic, or lineage components when it comes to citizenship.  Even more so when the excluded peoples tend to be very vocal about the destruction of that nation.
Demolishing 10,000 homes and leaving 3 percent of the land inside the pre 67 border to Palestinians seems to fit the bill as I described it.
Demolishing 10,000 Bedouin shacks across six years, most of which are built in protest as civil disobedience or in an attempt to live a traditional lifestyle.  Nope, not the same thing as:
Hahaha mate the Israelis bulldoze entire Arab towns and then develop the land for settlement by immigrants solely on the basis of their race and religion.
There’s a long list of demolished towns and homes in there which should help give context to the wiki map.
"Bulldoze entire Arab towns and then develop the land for settlement by immigrants"
"Long list of demolished towns"
You straight made that up.  You wanted to evoke an exaggerated image of what Israel was doing and weren't content to stay within the bounds of truth to do so.

Were all of those 10,000 demolitions just?  Almost certainly not.  Are they equivalent to "apartheid"?  Almost certainly not.
What do you think the appropriate Palestinian response should have been?
Obviously their only rational option is a coordinated terror campaign against civilians.

De Selby

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2023, 07:54:37 AM »
It takes a lot of effort and words to try and explain how destroying houses of residents to import immigrants on the basis of race is the same thing as having favourable visa conditions for a non-race based diaspora!

Legit cordex you can’t be serious. Straight up demolishing thousands of homes and reserving land at a ratio of 93 percent for one race over another is not remotely the same as allowing descendants of citizens to get a visa. That’s just dishonest. As is reading that report and looking at that map and claiming the 10,000 plus homes destroyed doesn’t constitute removing whole towns.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cordex

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2023, 10:23:05 AM »
It takes a lot of effort and words to try and explain how destroying houses of residents to import immigrants on the basis of race is the same thing as having favourable visa conditions for a non-race based diaspora!
It's a complicated issue, but apparently you're having trouble keeping up with the conversation and have even forgotten what you brought up.

Legit cordex you can’t be serious. Straight up demolishing thousands of homes and reserving land at a ratio of 93 percent for one race over another is not remotely the same as allowing descendants of citizens to get a visa.
Please let me help clarify for you.  I was specifically addressing the difficulty of Palestinians living in East Jerusalem in obtaining Israeli citizenship and the preferential treatment of Jews in that respect.  This was a subject you brought up via the following quote:
Quote from: DeSelby's post referencing DeSelby's source
When Israel annexed East Jerusalem in 1967, it applied its 1952 Law of Entry to Palestinians who lived there and designated them as “permanent residents,” the same status afforded to a non-Jewish foreigner who moves to Israel. The Interior Ministry has revoked this status from at least 14,701 Palestinians since 1967, mostly for failing to prove a “center of life” in the city. A path to Israeli citizenship exists, but few apply and most who did in recent years were not granted citizenship. By contrast, Jewish Israelis in Jerusalem, including settlers in East Jerusalem, are citizens who do not have to prove connections to the city to maintain their status.
I took your choice to bring this up as another, legitimately unfair Israeli practice you thought was relevant to the conversation so I addressed it as such.  Your quote had nothing to do with demolition of housing and neither did my response on that subject. 

If you quoted that passage at me unintentionally, or just failed to understand what you were quoting then I'd be happy to move on, but of course given the context I was not implying in any way that the demolition of homes was the same thing as getting visas any more than you were when you raised the subject. 

That’s just dishonest.
:rofl:  Sure, De Selby, I'll worry about what you of all people consider dishonest.

As is reading that report and looking at that map and claiming the 10,000 plus homes destroyed doesn’t constitute removing whole towns.
Detroit alone demolishes homes at almost that rate.  Probably nicer homes at that. 

It's a big number and I'm sure that there is plenty of injustice to go around in it, but the number also intentionally ignores the context of what most of the demolished homes in the Negev region actually are and why they are built.  That is to say they are largely tents and shacks built in areas without any infrastructure that are not the primary residence for the builders.  Go check out the ruins of Al Araqib.  Most of those "homes" that keep getting demolished have the footprint of a pup-tent.  But each one feeds into your 10,000!!!! number ... repeatedly.  Likely over half of the 10,000 number (over six years, remember) are accounted for in the Al Araqib protest alone given a few dozen "homes" removed per demolition and 20ish demolitions per year.

Your claim was "whole towns" get demolished to make room for Jewish settlements.  That claim was total crap from the beginning, and you doubled-down on the lie by claiming that sources which did not reference towns that were destroyed did so.

In fairness, I'm not sure if you knew it was untrue when you initially made the assertion or if you believed it at the time and now are just trying to backfill because it turns out not to be remotely accurate, but at this point I think it is clear that if you could have named the towns you would have.

Again, I don't think Israel is a paragon of virtue or justice or freedom.  I don't think they're pure and innocent.  I think they run their country in a way I consider unjust and disturbing in many ways.

However, it is also clear that you're willing to hold them to a standard that you wouldn't even consider for a moment holding their neighbors to.  In a sense that is a kind of compliment to the Israelis.  You believe they're capable of a society of a caliber you don't think Arabs can be expected to maintain.  I mean, it's every bit as condescendingly racist as the people who think that black Americans can't be held to the same standards as white Americans, but whatever.

zxcvbob

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2023, 02:01:52 PM »
It takes a lot of effort and words to try and explain how destroying houses of residents to import immigrants on the basis of race is the same thing as having favourable visa conditions for a non-race based diaspora!

Legit cordex you can’t be serious. Straight up demolishing thousands of homes and reserving land at a ratio of 93 percent for one race over another is not remotely the same as allowing descendants of citizens to get a visa. That’s just dishonest. As is reading that report and looking at that map and claiming the 10,000 plus homes destroyed doesn’t constitute removing whole towns.

The Jews and Palestinians are the same race; that's why they hate each other so much (although the hate mostly goes in only one directions)  It dates all the way back to Genesis, when Abraham couldn't keep his pants on -- with Sarah's blessing -- and then Sarah mistreated Hagar.  Or perhaps that's not it and it's Jacob v. Esau; also Genesis.  (I have trouble keeping my genealogies and family feuds straight)

ETA: I was right the first time, before I hedged my bet.  ;/  The Palestinians and Arabs are descendants of Ishmael.
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cordex

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2023, 02:03:24 PM »
that's why they hate each other so much (although the hate mostly goes in only one directions)
I think there is plenty of mutuality to the hate.  Especially at this very moment.

zxcvbob

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2023, 02:05:36 PM »
I think there is plenty of mutuality to the hate.  Especially at this very moment.

At this moment at least, you're exactly right.  =(
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Ron

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2023, 11:39:25 AM »
The US options are to:

1.Support Israel

2.Support Palestine

3.Support both sides

4.Support neither side

I'm going with #4

US policy seems to vacillate between 1 and 3
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

WLJ

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2023, 11:53:01 AM »
5. Glass the entire region.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

cordex

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2023, 04:54:38 PM »
5. Glass the entire region.
I think he sort of has that covered with option 3.

MechAg94

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2023, 02:54:16 PM »
Do you think maybe the fact that most non-Palestinian residents of Israel are recent immigrants from Europe and the former USSR might have anything to do with the connection?
How many of the Arabs were recent immigrants that moved into the area to work for the British during or prior to WWII? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2023, 02:57:33 PM »
The US options are to:

1.Support Israel

2.Support Palestine

3.Support both sides

4.Support neither side

I'm going with #4

US policy seems to vacillate between 1 and 3
I really don't think Israel needs our help.  We have been giving them aid for decades.  They ought to have enough weapons to do it on their own at this point. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Northwoods

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2023, 03:32:59 PM »
How many of the Arabs were recent immigrants that moved into the area to work for the British during or prior to WWII? 

Most of modern day Israel was a barren wasteland before the Jewish migrants started improving the land.  Once they developed the land and had a functioning economy the Arabs started to move there too.

If Hamas gets their way and the Jews are all killed (or least displaced) and all that land became “theirs” it would be well on its way to reverting to barren wasteland status within 20 years, tops (probably within 5 years).  Just like how Zimbabwe went from breadbasket to basket case when they dispossessed the white farmers and gave it to the blacks.

De Selby

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2023, 06:47:56 PM »
How many of the Arabs were recent immigrants that moved into the area to work for the British during or prior to WWII?

A small proportion compared to the recent immigrants from Europe. The myth that Arabs were a minority before Jews came from Europe is mainly spread for propaganda reasons, it is not taken seriously by any historians.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_census_of_Palestine

Quote
The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,890 Muslims, 83,794 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 408 Sikhs, 265 Baháʼís, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

80 percent of the Arab population was forcibly expelled in 1948 by the European immigrants.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

zxcvbob

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2023, 07:14:54 PM »
When Israel was established as a state in 1948 (?) who was the land taken from?  (my history classes in high school were a joke)  The Kingdom of Egypt, right?  That would be fine if Egypt had fought for the Axis and lost, but Egypt was occupied by Britain at the time and was actually neutral in WW2.  (that's as much as I know about it)  Some Egyptians may have fought for the Axis powers but others fought for the Allies.  And did the British unilaterally divide Egypt, or did the Egyptians willingly cede the land. Or something else?  Anybody know the details?  Mike?  Dogmush?  I'd even like to hear DeSelby's opinions  :laugh:

Arabs have hated the Jews for millennia, even before the founding of Islam.  It's a family feud dating back to Isaac and Ishmael.  The founding of Israel after WW2 just gave them a focal point.  AFAIK the Jews don't like the Arabs either, but they don't begrudge them the right to exist.
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De Selby

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Re: Where Does Apartheid Begin?
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2023, 07:20:31 PM »
When Israel was established as a state in 1948 (?) who was the land taken from?  (my history classes in high school were a joke)  The Kingdom of Egypt, right?  That would be fine if Egypt had fought for the Axis and lost, but Egypt was occupied by Britain at the time and was actually neutral in WW2.  (that's as much as I know about it)  Some Egyptians may have fought for the Axis powers but others fought for the Allies.  And did the British unilaterally divide Egypt, or did the Egyptians willingly cede the land. Or something else?  Anybody know the details?  Mike?  Dogmush?  I'd even like to hear DeSelby's opinions  :laugh:

Arabs have hated the Jews for millennia, even before the founding of Islam.  It's a family feud dating back to Isaac and Ishmael.  The founding of Israel after WW2 just gave them a focal point.  AFAIK the Jews don't like the Arabs either, but they don't begrudge them the right to exist.

Lots of different empires ruled the land prior to 1948. None of them expelled all the residents to make room for mass immigration from Europe. Jews and Arabs  lived side by side in peace for centuries in that place prior to the violence perpetrated by the early communists who came from Europe prior to the 48 expulsion.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."