Where Does Apartheid Begin?

[dogmush]

When Israel was established as a state in 1948 (?) who was the land taken from?  (my history classes in high school were a joke)  The Kingdom of Egypt, right?  That would be fine if Egypt had fought for the Axis and lost, but Egypt was occupied by Britain at the time and was actually neutral in WW2.  (that's as much as I know about it)  Some Egyptians may have fought for the Axis powers but others fought for the Allies.  And did the British unilaterally divide Egypt, or did the Egyptians willingly cede the land. Or something else?  Anybody know the details?  Mike?  Dogmush?  I'd even like to hear DeSelby's opinions 

Britain came to control Palestine during WWI.  The land had been part of the Ottoman Empire for about 400 years.  In 1917 the British troops occupied (and were offered the keys to the city by the folks there) Jerusalem, and got defacto control over the whole region.  As part of the treaties that ended WWI (Not sure if it was actually the Treaty of Versailles, or a different one) the British received a Mandate for Palestine from the League of Nations.  The land was theirs to administer and govern.  Around this time it became the official policy of the British Government to help Jews return to their "Homeland". (The Balfour Declaration was issued in 1917)  For the entire inter war period Palestine was run by the Brits, under their Mandate, as a dual Arab/Jew state, with many European Jews heading there to live. There were actually immigration limits during that time on the number of Jews that could come in.  (Limits that were not always strictly followed as the Nazi's spun up in the 30's)  Then WWII happened.  After the WWII the Brits announced their intention to leave the area, carved Israel out of the land that they had been administering for 30 years, and returned the Mandate to the UN in 1948.

So technically the Brits made Israel out of their own land, although I glossed over a fair bit of nuance of the interwar governing of Palestine by a civil authority and the Brits.

[Pb]

Personally, my ignorant opinion is that Zionism was a mistake.  Settling mass numbers of foreigners into a land and creating a country that most of the people who were born there did not want to live under just sounds like a terrible idea.

People on both sides committed acts of horrific terrorism and ethnic cleansing during the founding of Israel.  Civil wars are horrific.  The wars with the Arab nations around them led to even more massive ethnic cleansing both of Jews and Arabs.  Some of the Israeli leaders were apparently guilty of murder (the Assassination of Count Bernadotte, in which Yitzhak Shamir was supposedly involved for example).

That being said, Israel is an established nation, and trying to correct historic "wrongs" by screwing over people today (the modern Israelis) is foolish and wrong.  The Israelis have managed to create a civilization better than the Arab nations around them.  Many of the Palestinians have been unable to accept that their ancestors lost the war.  They have refused to make peace, and get on with creating a civil society.  My ancestors lost a civil war too, but we got over it and made peace.  Those who resort to terrorism are better off dead.  I hope the Israelis kill every single Hamas member.

[zxcvbob]

Britain came to control Palestine during WWI.  The land had been part of the Ottoman Empire for about 400 years.  In 1917 the British troops occupied (and were offered the keys to the city by the folks there) Jerusalem, and got defacto control over the whole region.  As part of the treaties that ended WWI (Not sure if it was actually the Treaty of Versailles, or a different one) the British received a Mandate for Palestine from the League of Nations.  The land was theirs to administer and govern.  Around this time it became the official policy of the British Government to help Jews return to their "Homeland". (The Balfour Declaration was issued in 1917)  For the entire inter war period Palestine was run by the Brits, under their Mandate, as a dual Arab/Jew state, with many European Jews heading there to live. There were actually immigration limits during that time on the number of Jews that could come in.  (Limits that were not always strictly followed as the Nazi's spun up in the 30's)  Then WWII happened.  After the WWII the Brits announced their intention to leave the area, carved Israel out of the land that they had been administering for 30 years, and returned the Mandate to the UN in 1948.

So technically the Brits made Israel out of their own land, although I glossed over a fair bit of nuance of the interwar governing of Palestine by a civil authority and the Brits.

Thanks.  I was skimming 1930s history and I should have gone back a few more years.  I wasn't sure why Egypt was part of the British empire.  I thought it might've had something to do with the Scramble for Africa in the late 1800s.

[cordex]

Settling mass numbers of foreigners into a land and creating a country that most of the people who were born there did not want to live under just sounds like a terrible idea.

Like the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.?

The wars with the Arab nations around them led to even more massive ethnic cleansing both of Jews and Arabs.

I get what you're trying to convey, and you're not totally wrong, but I thought I'd put a little context to the phrase "massive ethnic cleansing both of Jews and Arabs".

Today Israel has approximately 20% Arab citizenship (this is not including the Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank or the permanent residents of East Jerusalem).  There were about 725,000 Arabs living in the area allocated to Israel in the 1947 partition plan.  After the Arab-Israeli war there were 156,000.  Today there are 1.9 million Arab Israelis who have political representation and freedom to practice their religion.

Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Egypt, UAE, Qatar, Oman ... all have less than 0.01% Jewish populations today.  Many of those nations have zero Jews living there at all.  Some that do only have small Jewish communities that number under 100.  Iran has a larger than average contingent of Jews at under 10,000, but most Persian Arabs (to the tune of 97%) have left Iran.  For the handful of Jews living in those countries, most lack religious freedom and political representation.

Using conservative estimates, there were about 735,000 Jews living in Arab and Persian countries around the same time.  Today there are statistically none.  Israel certainly has blood on their hands and disgraceful history behind them (and probably in front of them) when it comes to mistreatment of Arabs, but if we're going to throw around terms like "ethnic cleansing", I think we should have some context about what "both sides" have done.

[Pb]

Like the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc.?

Well, from the American Indian's point of view it was a terrible idea, right?  It led to centuries of war, and their nations lost a continent, and they are a tiny minority now.

From mine, not so much... like the Isreali's.

[cordex]

Well, from the American Indian's point of view it was a terrible idea, right?  It led to centuries of war, and their nations lost a continent, and they are a tiny minority now.

I took you to be saying that there was something objectively terrible about the idea of Zionism, not just from the perspective of the Arabs that lived in modern-day Israel. 

From the perspective of the loser, all displacing migrations and wars of conquest look like a terrible idea.

[Pb]

Using conservative estimates, there were about 735,000 Jews living in Arab and Persian countries around the same time.  Today there are statistically none.  Israel certainly has blood on their hands and disgraceful history behind them (and probably in front of them) when it comes to mistreatment of Arabs, but if we're going to throw around terms like "ethnic cleansing", I think we should have some context about what "both sides" have done.

Thanks for the context.  From what I read, about 900,000 Jews fled or were expelled from the Arab nations.  From what you posted, 579,000 Arabs fled or were expelled from Israel and its conquests.  That's a lot of ethnic cleansing on both sides. 

[Pb]

I took you to be saying that there was something objectively terrible about the idea of Zionism, not just from the perspective of the Arabs that lived in modern-day Israel. 

Yeah, in my outsider opinion Zionism was a terrible idea.  Most of the people who lived their didn't want it, but they had no choice. 

I could be wrong though.

It's history now, and wallowing in past failures instead of moving on is poisonous to nations.  My ancestors lost a civil war too, and we got over it and moved on.  The Arabs need to, and stop their murderous lunacy.

[cordex]

Thanks for the context.  From what I read, about 900,000 Jews fled or were expelled from the Arab nations.  From what you posted, 579,000 Arabs fled or were expelled from Israel and its conquests.  That's a lot of ethnic cleansing on both sides.

Like I said, not totally wrong, but lacking context.  In terms of ethnic cleansing Israel might be said to have done a quick rinse whereas the Arabs have scrubbed raw, soaked in bleach, then replaced all their lightbulbs with UV-C germicidal ones. 

The only time we ever talk about the Arab's own ethnic cleansing is if we're equating it to Israeli ethnic cleansing.  It's not wrong to say that Israeli Jews have done things that can be considered ethnic cleansing, but I'm not sure it can be considered equivalent either. 

[MechAg94]

Lots of different empires ruled the land prior to 1948. None of them expelled all the residents to make room for mass immigration from Europe. Jews and Arabs  lived side by side in peace for centuries in that place prior to the violence perpetrated by the early communists who came from Europe prior to the 48 expulsion.

My understanding is neither did Israel.  I had always heard many Arabs/Moslems left Israel prior to the invasions after it was formed and Israel decided not to let them back in afterward. 
I am sure there are lots of versions depending on who you talk to.

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What I heard in one video was a claim that a portion of the Arab/Muslim population moved in to the area to work for the British after WWI.  I do not know how big that portion is.  I recall reading long ago that the population of the area was pretty small back in the late 1800's.  Jews actually started immigrating back in and buying land in small numbers back then.  It ramped up as time passed and the population of Arabs/Muslims increased at the same time.  The main point of this is I don't think anyone knows how many Muslims/Arabs have any generational claim to the area over the last 200 years any greater than the Jews who moved there during the decades prior to WWII.  The most recent history is a mixed bag prior to WWII. 

I do recall reading that there was terrorism and some fighting prior to WWII that the British tried to keep a lid on. 

[Pb]

I do recall reading that there was terrorism and some fighting prior to WWII that the British tried to keep a lid on.

Yes.  Lehi and the Irgun were two terrorist Zionist groups who assassinated people, placed bombs and committed massacres.  The Deir Yassin massacre being notable.

I haven't researched any similar Arab groups.

[MechAg94]

Yes.  Lehi and the Irgun were two terrorist Zionist groups who assassinated people, placed bombs and committed massacres.  The Deir Yassin massacre being notable.

I haven't researched any similar Arab groups.

Been years since I read about it.  Now that I think about it, I think it did mention fighting and such going both directions.  The biased source I recall said it was started by the Arabs, but who knows.  I mainly remember the British tried to ban the import of weapons, but were unable to stop that or the violence in some areas.  Whoever started it, I can see people trying to set up their own security and some looking for revenge as well.

[MechAg94]

Why the Middle East’s Borders Guarantee Forever Wars
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN4mnVLP0rU

I listened to this today.  Does a decent job of summarizing the history of the Middle East and why its current borders are what they are.