Author Topic: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS  (Read 28809 times)

xavier fremboe

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2008, 12:23:20 PM »
Africa may be taking matters into their own hands as far as medicinal research is concerned.  They've killed 23 albinos in Tanzania this year for use in witch doctor ceremonies.  That's 23 albino humans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7518049.stm
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Werewolf

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2008, 04:26:10 PM »
Maybe it's to help treat people with a terrible disease.

Yeah...
People who can't even acknowledge that AIDS is a disease; a disease that originated on their stinking cess pit of a continent and was exported to the rest of the world and GOD only knows how.

Right 40B! - 40B down the tubes! - treating people that are going to die anyway no matter what we do while spreading it to others of their ilk because they're too stupid and backwards to do something as simple as wear a freaking condom.

40B could put a lot of deserving young americans thru college.
40B could go a long ways towards solving the problem of getting cheap hydrogen for fuel.
40B could build quite a few oil refineries and pay for a lot of offshore oil rigs.

And for the bleeding hearts - 40B could feed a whole hell of a lot of hungry and homeless people in the USA.

In other words - when we've got all of our own problems taken care of then, and only then, should we be sending money over seas.

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Bigjake

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2008, 04:42:08 PM »
Maybe it's to help treat people with a terrible disease.

That's a horrible diabolical scheme I agree. Bush is really as bad as everyone says.

Then go petition YOUR government to piss whatever the equivalent in euros or pounds or whatever you use down that tube.

roo_ster

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2008, 05:53:55 PM »
Maybe it's to help treat people with a terrible disease.

That's a horrible diabolical scheme I agree. Bush is really as bad as everyone says.

Then go petition YOUR government to piss whatever the equivalent in euros or pounds or whatever you use down that tube.

Oh, the UK & other euro gov'ts will pledge $40B & more...but not deliver.

Kinda like the SE Asian tsunami. 

Unless that $40B is being used in a--ahem--prophylactic sense with regard to infection disease spread FROM Africa To the USA, I think it the fiscal equivalent of piling it up, dousing it with kerosene, and lighting it up.
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roo_ster

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RevDisk

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2008, 08:28:27 PM »
Oh, the UK & other euro gov'ts will pledge $40B & more...but not deliver.

Kinda like the SE Asian tsunami. 

Unless that $40B is being used in a--ahem--prophylactic sense with regard to infection disease spread FROM Africa To the USA, I think it the fiscal equivalent of piling it up, dousing it with kerosene, and lighting it up.

Na.  A good part of that 40b will go to improving Switzerland's economy.  The rest will be enriching former Soviet arms manufacturing companies.
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seeker_two

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2008, 12:42:33 AM »
Yep....we should keep the gov't money here....and the charity money, too.....

....after awhile, the problems of Africa will solve itself.....and we'll have an easier time getting oil and diamonds, too....


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Bigjake

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2008, 03:23:47 AM »
I may have linked this before, but it's worth re-reading

http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/essays/36/

 Let Africa Sink

Kim du Toit
May 26, 2002
1:40 PM CST

When it comes to any analysis of the problems facing Africa, Western society, and particularly people from the United States, encounter a logical disconnect that makes clear analysis impossible.  That disconnect is the way life is regarded in the West (its precious, must be protected at all costs etc.), compared to the way life, and death, are regarded in Africa.  Let me try to quantify this statement.

In Africa, life is cheap.  There are so many ways to die in Africa that death is far more commonplace than in the West.  You can die from so many things--snakebite, insect bite, wild animal attack, disease, starvation, food poisoning& the list goes on and on.  At one time, crocodiles accounted for more deaths in sub-Saharan Africa than gunfire, for example.  Now add the usual human tragedy (murder, assault, warfare and the rest), and you can begin to understand why the life expectancy for an African is low--in fact, horrifyingly low, if you remove White Africans from the statistics (they tend to be more urbanized, and more Western in behavior and outlook).  Finally, if you add the horrifying spread of AIDS into the equation, anyone born in sub-Saharan Africa this century will be lucky to reach age forty.

I lived in Africa for over thirty years.  Growing up there, I was infused with several African traits--traits which are not common in Western civilization.  The almost-casual attitude towards death was one.  (Another is a morbid fear of snakes.)

So because of my African background, I am seldom moved at the sight of death, unless its accidental, or it affects someone close to me.  (Death which strikes at strangers, of course, is mostly ignored.)  Of my circle of about eighteen or so friends with whom I grew up, and whom I would consider "close", only about ten survive today--and not one of the survivors is over the age of fifty.  Two friends died from stepping on landmines while on Army duty in Namibia.  Three died in horrific car accidents (and lest one thinks that this is not confined to Africa, one was caused by a kudu flying through a windshield and impaling the guy through the chest with its hoof--not your everyday traffic accident in, say, Florida).  One was bitten by a snake, and died from heart failure.  Another also died of heart failure, but he was a hopeless drunkard.  Two were shot by muggers.  The last went out on his surfboard one day and was never seen again (did I mention that sharks are plentiful off the African coasts and in the major rivers?).  My situation is not uncommon in South Africa--and north of the Limpopo River (the border with Zimbabwe), I suspect that others would show worse statistics.

The death toll wasnt just confined to my friends.  When I was still living in Johannesburg, the newspaper carried daily stories of people mauled by lions, or attacked by rival tribesmen, or dying from some unspeakable disease (and this was pre-AIDS Africa too) and in general, succumbing to some of Africas many answers to the population explosion.  Add to that the normal death toll from rampant crime, illness, poverty, flood, famine, traffic, and the police, and youll begin to get the idea.

My favorite African story actually happened after I left the country.  An American executive took a job over there, and on his very first day, the newspaper headlines read: "Three Headless Bodies Found".
The next day: "Three Heads Found".
The third day: "Heads Dont Match Bodies".

You cant make this stuff up.

As a result of all this, death is treated more casually by Africans than by Westerners.  I, and I suspect most Africans, am completely inured to reports of African suffering, for whatever cause.  Drought causes crops to fail, thousands face starvation?  Yup, that happened many times while I was growing up.  Inter-tribal rivalry and warfare causes wholesale slaughter?  Yep, been happening there for millennia, long before Whitey got there.  Governments becoming rich and corrupt while their populations starved?  Not more than nine or ten of those.  In my lifetime, the following tragedies have occurred, causing untold millions of deaths:  famine in Biafra, genocide in Rwanda, civil war in Angola, floods in South Africa, famine in Somalia, civil war in Sudan, famine in Ethiopia, floods in Mozambique, wholesale slaughter in Uganda, and tribal warfare in every single country.  There are others, but you get the point.

Yes, all this was also true in Europe--maybe a thousand years ago.  But not any more.  And Europe doesnt teem with crocodiles, ultra-venomous snakes and so on.

The Dutch controlled the floods.  All of Europe controls famine--its non-existent now.  Apart from a couple of examples of massive, state-sponsored slaughter (Nazi Germany, Communist Russia), Europe since 1700 doesnt even begin to compare to Africa today.  Casual slaughter is another thing altogether--rare in Europe, common in Africa.

More to the point, the West has evolved into a society with a stable system of government, which follows the rule of law, and has respect for the rights and life of the individual--none of which is true in Africa.

Among old Africa hands, we have a saying, usually accompanied by a shrug: "Africa wins again." This is usually said after an incident such as:

    * a beloved missionary is butchered by his congregation, for no apparent reason
    * a tribal chief prefers to let his tribe starve to death rather than accepting food from the Red Cross (would mean he wasnt all-powerful, you see)
    * an entire nation starves to death, while its ruler accumulates wealth in foreign banks
    * a new government comes into power, promising democracy, free elections etc., provided that the freedom doesnt extend to the other tribe
    * the other tribe comes to power in a bloody coup, then promptly sets about slaughtering the first tribe
    * etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam, ad infinitum.

The prognosis is bleak, because none of this mayhem shows any sign of ending.  The conclusions are equally bleak, because, quite frankly, there is no answer to Africas problems, no solution that hasnt been tried before, and failed.

Just go to the CIA World Fact Book, pick any of the African countries (Kenya, Tanzania, Zambia, Malawi etc.), and compare the statistics to any Western country (eg.  Portugal, Italy, Spain, Ireland).  The disparities are appalling--and its going to get worse, not better.  It has certainly got worse since 1960, when most African countries achieved independence.  We, and by this I mean the West, have tried many ways to help Africa. All such attempts have failed.

Charity is no answer.  Money simply gets appropriated by the first, or second, or third person to touch it (17 countries saw a decline in real per capita GNP between 1970 and 1999, despite receiving well over $100 billion in World Bank assistance).

Food isnt distributed.  This happens either because there is no transportation infrastructure (bad), or the local leader deliberately withholds the supplies to starve people into submission (worse).

Materiel is broken, stolen or sold off for a fraction of its worth.  The result of decades of "foreign aid" has resulted in a continental infrastructure which, if one excludes South Africa, couldnt support Pittsburgh.

Add to this, as I mentioned above, the endless cycle of Natures little bag of tricks--persistent drought followed by violent flooding, a plethora of animals, reptiles and insects so dangerous that life is already cheap before Man starts playing his little reindeer games with his fellow Man--and what you are left with is:  catastrophe.

The inescapable conclusion is simply one of resignation.  This goes against the grain of our humanity--we are accustomed to ridding the world of this or that problem (smallpox, polio, whatever), and accepting failure is anathema to us.  But, to give a classic African scenario, a polio vaccine wont work if the kids are prevented from getting the vaccine by a venal overlord, or a frightened chieftain, or a lack of roads, or by criminals who steal the vaccine and sell it to someone else.  If a cure for AIDS was found tomorrow, and offered to every African nation free of charge, the growth of the disease would scarcely be checked, let alone reversed.  Basically, youd have to try to inoculate as many two-year old children as possible, and write off the two older generations.

So that is the only one response, and its a brutal one:  accept that we are powerless to change Africa, and leave them to sink or swim, by themselves.

It sounds dreadful to say it, but if the entire African continent dissolves into a seething maelstrom of disease, famine and brutality, thats just too damn bad.  We have better things to do--sometimes, you just have to say, "Cant do anything about it.

The viciousness, the cruelty, the corruption, the duplicity, the savagery, and the incompetence is endemic to the entire continent, and is so much of an anathema to any right-thinking person that the civilized imagination simply stalls when faced with its ubiquity, and with the enormity of trying to fix it.  The Western media shouldnt even bother reporting on it.  All that does is arouse our feelings of horror, and the instinctive need to do something, anything--but everything has been tried before, and failed.  Everything, of course, except self-reliance.

All we should do is make sure that none of Africa gets transplanted over to the U.S., because the danger to our society is dire if it does.  I note that several U.S. churches are attempting to bring groups of African refugees over to the United States, European churches the same for Europe.  Mistake.  Mark my words, this misplaced charity will turn around and bite us, big time.

Even worse would be to think that the simplicity of Africa holds some kind of answers for Western society:  remember Mrs. Clintons little book, "It Takes A Village"?  Trust me on this:  there is not one thing that Africa can give the West which hasnt been tried before and failed, not one thing that isnt a step backwards, and not one thing which is worse than, or that contradicts, what we have already.

So heres my (tongue-in-cheek) solution for the African fiasco:  a high wall around the whole continent, all the guns and bombs in the world for everyone inside, and at the end, the last one alive should do us all a favor and kill himself.

Inevitably, some Kissingerian realpolitiker is going to argue in favor of intervention, because in the vacuum of Western aid, perhaps the Communist Chinese would step in and increase their influence in the area.  There are two reasons why this isnt going to happen.

Firstly, the PRC doesnt have that kind of money to throw around;  and secondly, the result of any communist assistance will be precisely the same as if it were Western assistance.  For the record, Mozambique and Angola are both communist countries--and both are economic disaster areas. The prognosis for both countries is disastrous--and would be the same for any other African country.

The West cant help Africa.  Nor should we.  The record speaks for itself.

yesitsloaded

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2008, 05:27:26 AM »
We had to burn down the village to save it.  undecided
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roo_ster

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2008, 06:16:29 AM »
We had to burn down the village to save it.  undecided

Two points:

1. We don't have to burn down the village, as the villagers are happy to do it for us.

2. Assuming we can "save" it is a false assumption.
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roo_ster

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Werewolf

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2008, 06:53:31 AM »
Nice article BigJake. Validates everything I learned during my time in Africa.

Too bad the bleeding hearts who live in a if only type of world just won't get it.

I'm forced to remember a short prayer I learned - in the Army of all places - that goes like this:

God
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
AND the wisdom to tell the difference.

The bleeding hearts seem as if they can never tell the difference.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2008, 06:55:10 AM »
Nice article BigJake. Validates everything I learned during my time in Africa.

Too bad the bleeding hearts who live in a if only type of world just won't get it.

I'm forced to remember a short prayer I learned - in the Army of all places - that goes like this:

God
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
AND the wisdom to tell the difference.

The bleeding hearts seem as if they can never tell the difference.

An excellent view of how most of Africa is run may be viewed in the movie "Lord of War".

yesitsloaded

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2008, 07:07:10 AM »
Considering one of the Africans I know here said that when she left (3 years ago) it was still stone age bats**t crazy. The people in the village killed an old lady because they thought she was a witch that stuck needles into their children at night. WTF? I'd rather find a solution, but you can only help those that want to be helped. Like it has been mentioned before, Egypt doesn't seem to have these issues and hasn't in thousands of years. They were colonizing Africa before whitey ever was on the scene.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2008, 07:09:04 AM »
Considering one of the Africans I know here said that when she left (3 years ago) it was still stone age bats**t crazy. The people in the village killed an old lady because they thought she was a witch that stuck needles into their children at night. WTF? I'd rather find a solution, but you can only help those that want to be helped. Like it has been mentioned before, Egypt doesn't seem to have these issues and hasn't in thousands of years. They were colonizing Africa before whitey ever was on the scene.

Their gold mines were in Nubia (modern Ethiopia, etc)...were they bad and evil colonial sorts as well? Smiley

yesitsloaded

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2008, 07:20:18 AM »
I wasn't there so I don't know. I always thought of a colony as a "franchise" of the parent government. They get the protection and the brand recognition, but they don't get to set the menu and have to give some of their earnings away. If the parent government treats its colonies like crap, they usually revolt. Sometimes a colony just doesn't produce and it is cheaper for the home government to "terminate the franchise agreement" than to keep paying to hold on.
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2008, 09:18:46 AM »
Africa may be taking matters into their own hands as far as medicinal research is concerned.  They've killed 23 albinos in Tanzania this year for use in witch doctor ceremonies.  That's 23 albino humans.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7518049.stm
Well, isn't that just LOVELY. Natural medicine and such. Lovely, all of it. Who are we to impose our beliefs on these people, who are WE to judge their culture? Theirs is so obviously superior to anything in the civilizsed world, that we should immedietly adopt the same practices. We need to start rapin' babies as well, that's a sure cure for AIDS. I know this because the local charlatan witchdoctor told me that.

Joe Demko

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #65 on: July 28, 2008, 12:36:27 PM »
I'm not sure there's anything can be done for Africa by outsiders.

But just for the record, those of you who so vehemently deny that you, personally, had anything to do with the excesses and evils of colonialism also had nothing personally to do with the positive achievements of Western Civilization, either.  Don't boast about it.  Don't brag about it.  Don't feel smug about it.  You had nothing to do with it.  You're part of it only by an accident of birth.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #66 on: July 28, 2008, 12:52:08 PM »
While I agree with you, Joe, it's also true that some of us embrace the positive aspects of Western Culture more than others.  Some of us try to continue the tradition, while some of us tear it down. 

Of course, it can be argued that different sides of the social divide preserve or destroy different parts of the tradition.  And I think there would be some truth to that, as well.
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Joe Demko

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2008, 01:09:27 PM »
Good and valid points, fistful.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2008, 01:46:53 PM »
Well, hey, thanks.  Reconsidering that last part, though.  There would a very little, bitty, bit of truth to it.  But not much.   cheesy
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #69 on: July 28, 2008, 02:18:00 PM »
The only potential drawback to walking away from Africa I can see is the possibility that muslim missionaries and radicalized schools will take over when we leave.

If the continent becomes a haven for radicalized terror and is capable of distributing that terror, we end up with another billion potential enemies.

I guess nothing says we can't have military operations routinely go in and out of that cesspool and decapitate the snake(s) routinely, but that's a great way to breed generational enmity that would never die.  We'd be bombing and assassinating in Africa for 500 years if that's the route we took.

Frankly, I kinda like the idea of encroaching forced colonization.  Build an international coalition and start from all the coasts and work inland, maybe 10 miles a year or so.  In 20 years the problem could be solved.
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Bigjake

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2008, 02:45:04 PM »
AZRedhawk,

I usually agree with you man, but not here.

How well, exactly, have International Coalitions worked in the past century?  Specifically ones with "UN" somewhere in the acronym?  Hell, the current crop of UN "Peacekeepers" are getting  better at the rape and pillage game than the natives. 

I see only  2 options;

Walk, and nuke the problem areas occasionally, or seriously colonize the hell out of the place, on a larger scale than we did in the Old West, and probably much more brutal.


MicroBalrog

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2008, 12:47:09 PM »
Quote
40B could put a lot of deserving young americans thru college.
40B could go a long ways towards solving the problem of getting cheap hydrogen for fuel.
40B could build quite a few oil refineries and pay for a lot of offshore oil rigs.

And for the bleeding hearts - 40B could feed a whole hell of a lot of hungry and homeless people in the USA.

None of these things are constitutional.

Why not, say, give the taxpayers their money back?
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mtnbkr

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #72 on: August 19, 2008, 06:03:16 AM »
Quote
40B could put a lot of deserving young americans thru college.
40B could go a long ways towards solving the problem of getting cheap hydrogen for fuel.
40B could build quite a few oil refineries and pay for a lot of offshore oil rigs.

And for the bleeding hearts - 40B could feed a whole hell of a lot of hungry and homeless people in the USA.

None of these things are constitutional.

Why not, say, give the taxpayers their money back?

Absolutely, but I think the point was if we're going to spend 40b, let's spend it on the US.

Chris

Werewolf

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Re: Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS
« Reply #73 on: August 19, 2008, 03:09:38 PM »
Quote
40B could put a lot of deserving young americans thru college.
40B could go a long ways towards solving the problem of getting cheap hydrogen for fuel.
40B could build quite a few oil refineries and pay for a lot of offshore oil rigs.

And for the bleeding hearts - 40B could feed a whole hell of a lot of hungry and homeless people in the USA.

None of these things are constitutional.

Say WHAT? The government paid for my college degree thru a program called JTPA. The government gives money to colleges, universities and private citizens to do research all the time. Probably haven't given money to build any refineries or offshore rigs but man do those subsidies add up. As for the homeless - I could care less if each and every one dropped dead in the next 10 seconds but I had to throw at least one bone the bleeding heart's way.

None of that is unconstitutional...
Quote
Why not, say, give the taxpayers their money back?
OK... With that I can agree.
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