Author Topic: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism  (Read 3520 times)

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« on: August 03, 2008, 06:04:53 AM »
This is pretty much as I see it, too.




http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=MDdiYTgxOGE0ZjNiZTEzZmI3OGQwMzBmYWFlNWE1MDg=

The Spoiled Children of Capitalism
In large measure our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism.


By Jonah Goldberg

Its an old story. Loving parents provide a generous environment for their offspring. Kids are given not only ample food, clothing and shelter, but the emotional necessities as well: encouragement, discipline, self-reliance, the ability to work with others and on their own. And yet, in due course, the kids rebel. Some even say their parents never loved them, that they were unfair, indifferent, cruel. Often, such protests are sparked by parents refusal to be even more generous. I want a car, demands the child. Work for it, insist the parents. Why do you hate me? asks the ingrate.

Of course, being an old story doesnt make it a universal one. But the dynamic is universally understood.

Weve all witnessed the tendency to take a boon for granted. Being accustomed to a provision naturally leads the human heart to consider that provision an entitlement. Hence the not-infrequent lawsuits from prison inmates cruelly denied their rights to cable TV or apple brown betty for desert.

And so it goes, I think, with capitalism generally.

Capitalism is the greatest system ever created for alleviating general human misery, and yet it breeds ingratitude.

People ask, Why is there poverty in the world? Its a silly question. Poverty is the default human condition. It is the factory preset of this mortal coil. As individuals and as a species, we are born naked and penniless, bereft of skills or possessions. Likewise, in his civilizational infancy man was poor, in every sense. He lived in ignorance, filth, hunger, and pain, and he died very young, either by violence or disease.

The interesting question isnt Why is there poverty? Its Why is there wealth? Or: Why is there prosperity here but not there?

At the end of the day, the first answer is capitalism, rightly understood. That is to say: free markets, private property, the spirit of entrepreneurialism and the conviction that the fruits of your labors are your own.

For generations, many thought prosperity was material stuff: factories and forests, gold mines and gross tons of concrete poured. But we now know that these things are merely the fringe benefits of wealth. Stalin built his factories, Mao paved over the peasants. But all that truly prospered was misery and alienation.

A recent World Bank study found that a nations wealth resides in its intangible capital  its laws, institutions, skills, smarts and cultural assumptions. Natural capital (minerals, croplands, etc.) and produced capital (factories, roads, and so on) account for less than a quarter of the planets wealth. In America, intangible capital  the stuff in our heads, our hearts, and our books  accounts for 82 percent of our wealth.

Any number of countries in Africa are vastly richer in baubles and soil than Switzerland. But they are poor because they are impoverished in what they value.


In large measure our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism.

And yet we hate it. Leaving religion out of it, no idea has given more to humanity. The average working-class person today is richer, in real terms, than the average prince or potentate of 300 years ago. His food is better, his life longer, his health better, his menu of entertainments vastly more diverse, his toilette infinitely more civilized. And yet we constantly hear how cruel capitalism is while this collectivism or that is more loving because, unlike capitalism, collectivism is about the group, not the individual.

These complaints grow loudest at times like this: when the loom of capitalism momentarily stutters in spinning its gold. Suddenly, the people ask: What have you done for me lately? Politicians croon about how we need to give in to Causes Larger than Ourselves and peck about like hungry chickens for a New Way to replace dying capitalism.

This is the patient leaping to embrace the disease and reject the cure. Recessions are fewer and weaker thanks in part to trade, yet whenever recessions appear on the horizon, politicians dive into their protectionist bunkers. Not surprising that this week we saw the demise of the Doha round of trade negotiations, and this campaign season weve heard the thunder of anti-trade rhetoric move ever closer.

This is the irony of capitalism. It is not zero-sum, but it feels like it is. Capitalism coordinates humanity toward peaceful, productive cooperation, but it feels alienating. Collectivism does the opposite, at least when dreamed up on paper. The communes and collectives imploded in inefficiency, drowned in blood. The kibbutz lives on only as a tourist attraction, a baseball fantasy camp for nostalgic socialists. Meanwhile, billions have ridden capitalism out of poverty.

And yet the children of capitalism still whine.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,825
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2008, 07:10:29 AM »
Yep, prosperity makes people take their good fortune for granted and forget how they got their or even feel guilty for their own prosperity.  This gets worse with successive generations. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Scout26

  • I'm a leaf on the wind.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,997
  • I spent a week in that town one night....
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2008, 11:33:58 AM »
It's amazing the number of people who just don't get it.  They go around with their fingers in their ears, screaming NONONONONONONONONO!!!!!  Even though reality keeps clubbing them over the head time and time again.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2008, 12:46:06 PM »
Excellent article. I'd never thought about poverty as the default human condition. Makes sense, though.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,982
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2008, 12:58:27 PM »
Quote
Poverty is the default human condition. It is the factory preset of this mortal coil. As individuals and as a species, we are born naked and penniless, bereft of skills or possessions. Likewise, in his civilizational infancy man was poor, in every sense. He lived in ignorance, filth, hunger, and pain, and he died very young, either by violence or disease.

Made me immediately think of Buddhist philosophy from college... the Four Noble Truths, and all that.

Perhaps capitalism = enlightenment. angel
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2008, 01:38:31 PM »
Excellent article. I'd never thought about poverty as the default human condition. Makes sense, though.

Poverty is the default human material condition.

Depravity is the default human spiritual condition.

It takes the hard work, blood, and tears of generations to change from the default.

One reason I am not so hot for utopian schmes or REVOLutionaries.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2008, 02:35:42 PM »
Quote
Depravity is the default human spiritual condition.

Maybe in your religion Comrade.

Most - 99% of the population of Earth - are not depraved or evil, or civilization would never even ESTABLISH itself.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2008, 03:22:07 PM »
Morals must be taught.  They are not innate.  Morals don't necessarily need to be religious, but historically they usually have been.

Civilization is the natural result of morals, much as prosperity is the natural result of capitalism.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2008, 03:26:51 PM »
Morals must be taught.  They are not innate.  Morals don't necessarily need to be religious, but historically they usually have been.

Civilization is the natural result of morals, much as prosperity is the natural result of capitalism.

That's quite possible. But I do not think that humans are inherently evil or any such thing.

I do not think - as many people, both religious and otherwise, seem to - that we require a complex system of rules to govern every aspect  of our lives to be moral.

I believe a person that does not do two or three things - no murdering, no stealing, no raping - is moral. I do not, unlike some people, believe human nature is completely unperfectable, or that humans are inherently evil.

The fact is, truly evil individuals are rare.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2008, 03:27:53 PM »
Micro: the depravity of man is one of the central tenents of Christianity and always has been. Implying that one who believes this is some type of Communist is idiotic. I'm sure we could all think of similarly insulting and illogical ASSumptions that could be made about Jewish bisexuals......
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2008, 03:46:48 PM »
Micro: the depravity of man is one of the central tenents of Christianity and always has been. Implying that one who believes this is some type of Communist is idiotic. I'm sure we could all think of similarly insulting and illogical ASSumptions that could be made about Jewish bisexuals......

Where did I imply Jfruser was a Communist? I assure you this was not my intent, and if JFRuser actually understood my view as such, then I apologize to him.  This was, again, not my intent.


My limited knowledge of the doctrine of the fundamental depravity of man tells me it stems from the Christian view of Original Sin - the idea that Adam and Eve's sin reflects ontologically on all mankind.

But I stress this is not a universal idea. Neither Islam nor Judaism accept this.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2008, 03:52:24 PM »
Referring to someone as "Comrade" is generally taken to be the same as calling them a Communist. Or comparing their viewpoint to that of communism, more commonly.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2008, 03:54:43 PM »
Referring to someone as "Comrade" is generally taken to be the same as calling them a Communist. Or comparing their viewpoint to that of communism, more commonly.

Or, in a general sense, as a fellow-member of a revolutionary movement. My point is, JFRuser is a revolutionary whether he admits it or not.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2008, 04:17:01 PM »
Quote
Depravity is the default human spiritual condition.

Maybe in your religion Comrade.

Most - 99% of the population of Earth - are not depraved or evil, or civilization would never even ESTABLISH itself.

100% of humanity is born morally depraved*.

Or, if you desire a secular term, "unsocialized."

It takes years of intense instruction and indoctrination to get the majority to "play well with others."  [Pray tell, how many times have you seen two toddlers in a dispute over a choice toy screaming, "Yours! Yours!" in a desperate attempt to share the toy in dispute?]

Every generation, Western civilization is invaded by barbarians  we call them "children."
----Hannah Arendt

We see what happens when just a minority portion of one generation in America is not properly acculturated/brought up/etc. in the American Baby Boomers.  They and their barbarous philosophies have run riot in America for 40 years, doing incalculable damage to the fabric of our civilization.



Comrade/Commie Business:
I was unsure of your meaning, though capital-C "Comrade" has been in use in communist countries (esp. USSR) and used as you did.  The term of address was only not used amongst those in the gulag, where they only rated being called "Citizen."**

Being unsure, I erred on the side of, "He knoweth not what he do," and blew it off.  So, no offense taken.

I am making NO assumptions about Jewish bisexuals, than you very much.



[Hey, y'all are making beau coup replies as I write mine out.  I'll have to keep up.]



Revolutionary?  <snort>

Classical Liberal, Burkean Conservative, Buckleyite, Hayekian, Federalist, & some others are all labels that I would not object to.

One might note that all the underlying philosophies are decidedly anti-utopian.

Perhaps, relative to a statist in a hell-on-earth u/dystopian project, I might be considered revolutionary. 



* IOW, Jean-Jacques Rousseau was an a depraved fool as were all those who based their philosophies on his foul writings.  I hope that SOB burns for eternity for the damage he has unleashed on Western Civilization.

** Strangely, I am very fond of the term "Citizen" and jealously guard what it implies (NOT a subject). 
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2008, 04:58:34 PM »
Quote
100% of humanity is born morally depraved.

And yet observe that most of humanity gets it rather easily. Consider that we go through life surrounded by weaponry. We have cars, knives, gasoline. With some intellect, a very impressive array of additional weapons can be fashioned from these implements. Yet civilization exists.

More to the point, society can be participated by in by Evangelicals, Satanists, Atheists, agnostics, and still function pretty well. It's easy to learn the rules  fact, 99% of humanity learns them.

America, with its gay people, hippies, legal (in some states) prostitutes, pornography, and Baby Boomers, is the nation of people who build spacecraft in their garages. And fly them. To space.

Speaking of Baby Boomers, I've been taught  and in fact, I've heard you saying it yourself on this forum  that the big problem with our society stems from the Progressive Movement, that predates the  Baby Boom by at least a few decades.

Quote
Classical Liberal, Burkean Conservative, Buckleyite, Hayekian, Federalist, & some others are all labels that I would not object to.

Classical Liberalism is not necessarily purely Burkean. Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson were plenty Classical Liberal.

The point however, remains that you support policies and political views (strict constutional interpretation, repeal of the graduate income tax, self-reliance and personal liberty) that, if enacted, would reshape of society as we know it. That's a revolution.

The only major difference between your view and mine on a philosophical level is that you are willing to let the revolution be gradual, whereas I want to find Rothbard's button and press it.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Antibubba

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,836
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2008, 06:48:58 PM »
Quote
Poverty is the default human material condition.

Depravity is the default human spiritual condition.

I think poverty is the default human spiritual condition too.  Not depravity, but deprivation.  As babies we're utterly dependent on others.  Of course, we all pass through a period of depravity, when the most important word, and concept, is "MINE!!!" (I like to think of this as the "Stewie" stage of social development.  grin )  Hopefully, we are taught about sharing and delayed gratification, but while many think of it as social(ist?) harmony, it's really about how to create a transaction, where I get what I want and someone else gets what they want, and we're both happy.  Manners and ettiquette and laws governing behavior are about conducting transactions, whether or not money is exchanged, because peace (or at least civility) is conducive to producing wealth.
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2008, 05:59:42 AM »
Quote
100% of humanity is born morally depraved.

And yet observe that most of humanity gets it rather easily. Consider that we go through life surrounded by weaponry. We have cars, knives, gasoline. With some intellect, a very impressive array of additional weapons can be fashioned from these implements. Yet civilization exists.

"Most of humanity" has reached adulthood and has been civilized or brought into some sort of ethical cultural framework that allows some degree of working well with others. 

I think you are overlooking all the time from birth required to get a human to the point where he won't just bash in someone's skull to get what he wants.  Also, I think you underestimate the level of effort required to civilize the little barbarians.  The hard work of civilization starts in the cradle with the thoroughly uncivilized infant.

Speaking of Baby Boomers, I've been taught  and in fact, I've heard you saying it yourself on this forum  that the big problem with our society stems from the Progressive Movement, that predates the  Baby Boom by at least a few decades.

True.  The BBs, however, were the first American generation that had the majority of its "talented tenth," or elite to be alienated from the principle of the Founders and the COTUS.  While the Progressive Movement was destructive and planted the seeds*, the BBs reaped the harvest when their elites took control of the levers of power.  This is not to discount all the damage done in the interim by the Hoovers, FDRs, & such.


Quote
Classical Liberal, Burkean Conservative, Buckleyite, Hayekian, Federalist, & some others are all labels that I would not object to.

Classical Liberalism is not necessarily purely Burkean. Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson were plenty Classical Liberal.

The point however, remains that you support policies and political views (strict constutional interpretation, repeal of the graduate income tax, self-reliance and personal liberty) that, if enacted, would reshape of society as we know it. That's a revolution.

The only major difference between your view and mine on a philosophical level is that you are willing to let the revolution be gradual, whereas I want to find Rothbard's button and press it.

I can find agreement with most of that. 

The labels I listed were neither exclusive nor complete.  Just a sampling.

[Side Note]
One must remember that an American "conservative" is trying to conserve classically liberal principles of the sort embodied in the COTUS & the writings of T Jeferson, Burke, Locke, etc.  and as such, are distinct from doctrinaire** libertarians and their government-less (rather than less government) utopian hangers-on.

American conservatism will value American traditions outside of the political/philosophical and will not be a total philosophy of life.  It will leave room for various lower levels of government to order their communities as they see fit, down to the "little platoons" of the family, the lowest level of organization/community.




* Quite a few seeds of which the most damaging, it can be argued, was the capture by the progressives of the public school system.

** I do not use "doctrinaire" to mean unthinking or dogmatic.  I use it more in the sense of consistent and systematic.


Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: our wealth isnt the product of capitalism, it is capitalism
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2008, 03:58:59 PM »
Here is Robert Heinlein's take on the default material state of man:
Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded  here and there, now and then  are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as "bad luck."


How many countries have followed the above model in the 20th & 21st Centuries?
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton