Author Topic: Cutting off my wife (long)  (Read 3813 times)

zahc

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Cutting off my wife (long)
« on: March 02, 2015, 12:21:59 AM »
I think that my wife has a spending problem, and I'm scheming how to take 100% control of all of the family accounts back under my name, so that my wife is specifically not able to access them. I will pay all the bills at the beginning of the month myself, and just hand my wife a stipend, in  the form of cash and/or a debit card every month. She will be physically unable to spend more than the budget. This is drastic action, but I am beginning to feel action is necessary. Has anyone undertaken such a personal-finance re-adjustment, which did not end in divorce, etc.? Tips?

because everyone will ask, more details follow.

Numbers:
It's hard being single-income, but I do make a 95th-percentile salary. We have a nice modern house in a nice neighborhood, 2 cars, zero debt except our mortgage. We aren't poor, but we will be soon if we keep overspending. The current discretionary spending budget, which does not include any bills but includes groceries, gas, clothes, household, hobbies, etc. is $1400/mo. Every time we start totaling up reasonable expected expenditures like $800 for groceries, $50 for kid clothes, $75 for gas, etc, it always adds up within-budget. She doesn't like that method, though, because it exposes that the current budget of $1400/mo is reasonable. Regardless of how reasonable it is, that's really all we have, so it just has to work. I have limited ability to wish more money into existence. And I guarantee if I got a promotion and the budget went to $1600/mo, it would be over-spent just the same.

Background:
For the first 5 years of our marriage, my wife had some job or other. For a time, when I was in grad school, she even made more than me. Money was never a real issue with us. I never told my wife what she could spend, and our finances were always shared. As long as she was making money, I didn't feel it was my place to dictate her spending. I still don't, as long as she isn't consistently over-spending. Which she is.

2.5 years ago, under mutual agreement, she quit her job to become full-time mom. She is still in charge of spending nearly all the money for the family. Groceries, clothes, household supplies, etc. And "we" have consistently over-spent the budget, every month, for the past 2.5 years. Without fail, there is $100-$500 over-budget on the credit cards every month. And because I refuse to pay credit-card interest rates, we pay the cards off every month. And in this manner, $20,000 in savings has become $10,000. This is a problem, and must be fixed. I understand that our income went down by 1/3 when she quit, so an "adjustment" or "transition" period of overspending is expected. But 2.5 years, with no improvement, is not a transition.

Since our spending is so out-of-control, I have responded by tightening down my own spending. I haven't bought a gun in...2.5 years, and no longer practice because I can't afford ammo. I dropped all my hobbies. I sold my convertible. I mow my own lawn, instead of hiring it out. Then one day when I decided to switch from synthetic oil to discount-brand conventional oil, the clueless husband in me realized that switching to cheaper motor oil to save $5 per month is not going to save this budget, and it's really my wife's spending habits that is the dominant factor here.  

We have discussed this many times. When we discuss this problem together, I get a renewed promise to do better. Sometimes I get blamed because I spent $150 on a welder or something, and that totally accounts for the whole $600 we are over-budget. It's going to be different this month, because she has some new money-tracking phone app. Or she has been listening to Dave Ramsey, and so the envelope system is totally going to work. Or it's a new year resolution. It's like somebody jumping diets, but still gaining weight the whole time. She has told me, in tears, that she does not know how to spend less money, and I believe her; I do.

The thing is, I lived with this woman back when our combined income was 1/4 what it is now. We bought cheap groceries, and didn't go out to eat because we couldn't afford it; literally did not have the money, and everything was ok. Somehow, this has slipped to where she knows we don't have the money, but also knows that the credit card has a $10,000 credit limit, and that there's money in the bank to pay it off. I have already tried implementing limits in "soft" form by doing cash-only (results in extra ATM withdrawals near end of month) and debit-card-only (results in overdraft near end of month). I think I just need to make it so she literally does not have access to more than the monthly budget...so the budget is not a target but a hard limit.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 12:30:26 AM by zahc »
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Boomhauer

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2015, 12:27:48 AM »
Pretty much the only way that control is going to be had is you taking over the finances totally, and giving her her spending money for the month and you handle everything else.
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zahc

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2015, 12:38:30 AM »
Pretty much the only way that control is going to be had is you taking over the finances totally, and giving her her spending money for the month and you handle everything else.

This just seems so odd to me, so I have been resisting the idea. My mom handled 100% of the family finances, and was a key reason my parents managed to raise 5 kids on a single blue-collar income, while even managing to improve their lot over time basically by observing "a penny saved is a penny earned" and other basic-math economics. The idea of my dad dictating a budget in the first place to my mom or arguing with her over spending was just not how it was done in my family at all.

When I used to hear other men talk about their over-spending wives, I never even understood it, like, why don't you just explain to them not to spend so much? But now I think I understand perfectly; that's like just explaining to a drunk not to drink so much. Without getting moral about it at all, it's just futile; you just have to take the booze away.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2015, 12:39:51 AM »
I'm gonna go with formal marriage and financial counseling for $1000 Alex.
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2015, 12:43:49 AM »
I'm gonna second RKL's advice there.
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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2015, 01:23:46 AM »
Lock up the good credit card. One in the wallet with an $800 limit will get either of you through most day to day stuff. Honor whatever agreement you make. I was on the other side once, that is the one getting the stipend. Theoretically. Even though it was by mutual agreement I felt out of place asking to get paid. And lesser in the relationship because of it. And I got a job within two weeks of being asked to, even though scuttling my career was the other's idea.

Good luck, but I have zero clue how two people can have an equal adult relationship without having equal means.
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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2015, 01:24:48 AM »
I'm gonna go with formal marriage and financial counseling for $1000 Alex.


I'm gonna second RKL's advice there.

Motion carried.

Another way to let her spend is to let her have something that's hers.  Part time work in one fashion or another.  That's why my wife started doing jewelry direct sales, for her own money outside the budget.

This just seems so odd to me, so I have been resisting the idea. My mom handled 100% of the family finances, and was a key reason my parents managed to raise 5 kids on a single blue-collar income, while even managing to improve their lot over time basically by observing "a penny saved is a penny earned" and other basic-math economics. The idea of my dad dictating a budget in the first place to my mom or arguing with her over spending was just not how it was done in my family at all.

When I used to hear other men talk about their over-spending wives, I never even understood it, like, why don't you just explain to them not to spend so much? But now I think I understand perfectly; that's like just explaining to a drunk not to drink so much. Without getting moral about it at all, it's just futile; you just have to take the booze away.

It's because we men like to spoil our women.  My wife has an easier time being frugal than I do, but I have a hard time telling her no on purchases (I do the budget and finances).  
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zxcvbob

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2015, 01:26:01 AM »
I can kind of relate, but not in a public forum.
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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2015, 05:06:20 AM »
I'm gonna go with formal marriage and financial counseling for $1000 Alex.


I don't want to be harsh, but I think this is only a symptom of the real problem.

You are the wage earner. You are in charge. So be in charge. Even though she is completely at fault, you, as the CEO of your family, have to make sure things are handled.
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De Selby

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2015, 06:19:47 AM »
I don't want to be harsh, but I think this is only a symptom of the real problem.

You are the wage earner. You are in charge. So be in charge. Even though she is completely at fault, you, as the CEO of your family, have to make sure things are handled.

Treating your wife like an employee is a surer path to divorce than filing divorce papers - the courts and lawyers might talk you out of the latter, but no one will spot the former from railroading through a divorce.

Zahc, counselling counselling counselling.  Your issue is one of the reasons I've always had separate accounts - can't argue about spending money that isn't there in the first place.  But that's pretty much impossible to go to from a joint account system.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2015, 07:06:35 AM »
I second (or third) what RKL, Jamis, and De Selby said.

First thing I'd do is see if she wanted to work.  You may not need the money, but she might want to work just for the social interaction and daily structure.  Unless something in your current budget changes, the money she earns is hers (if she makes good money, insist on her investing some for retirement, to be taken out automatically each pay period). 

How do I know this will work?  My wife and I went through something similar when we were first married.

Second, if that doesn't clear up the issue, go for counseling.

This isn't the 50s, taking control when you don't currently have it because "the little lady isn't good with numbers" is a sure way to new and interesting problems.

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2015, 07:15:43 AM »
I think I just need to make it so she literally does not have access to more than the monthly budget...so the budget is not a target but a hard limit.

I agree that the only way to change the status quo is to make it so that she can't spend more than the budget has set up to spend. You have valid ideas on how to accomplish that. The open question will be whether or not you can pull it off without recriminations, arguments, and possibly a divorce.

Obviously, you have discussed it and she has (apparently) acknowledged that there's a problem. Perhaps not even she knows whether she wants badly enough to correct the problem that she'll acknowledge that SHE is the problem, and that your proposal is the only way to resolve it. I'm going through this with my daughter at college right now. She gets a monthly stipend, has an ATM card, and I also gave her a credit card with a $500 limit "for emergencies." There seem to be a lot of emergencies, because there's a balance on the card every month, and she has gone over the $500 limit three times in six months.

I may just have to cut her off to make the point.

However, a father/daughter relationship is not the same as a spousal relationship. I think RKL nailed it -- you need relationship AND financial counseling. She needs to hear from an objective third party that the status quo can't continue.

Your savings account is like the church my late wife and I used to attend. Ten or 15 years ago the church had an endowment of between $6 and $10 MILLION dollars. The former pastor (now retired) told the membership it was okay to spend the principle of the endowment on operating expenses. The endowment is now down to about $300,000 and the church is in imminent danger of closing. That pastor retired about two years ago, and I'm personally certain it's because he wanted to get out before it came time to pay the piper.

You don't fund operating expenses out of savings. Part of any family budget should include ADDING regularly to savings, not spending savings. If you can't save 10% of every paycheck, make it 5% -- but not less.

Yeah -- follow RKL's advice.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 07:25:48 AM by Hawkmoon »
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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2015, 07:28:41 AM »
counseling and such.

The hard line approach is going to have major repercussions that won't end well.
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zahc

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2015, 07:50:33 AM »
Quote
Perhaps not even she knows whether she wants badly enough to correct the problem that she'll acknowledge that SHE is the problem, and that your proposal is the only way to resolve it

I want to be fair. Maybe I am part of the problem. With joint accounts, it's sort of hard to audit who is responsible for the actual overspending, because each month, both parties end up having bought things that coukd be said to contribute to the over budget condition. Maybe going to separate accounts will help me too. I'm willing to admit the possibility that I am also part of the problem, even if I know I am not a significant part since she does 80-90% of the spending, and we would still be over budget even if I spent nothing, but still. Having a budget of my own will make it impossible for me to buy something and blame it all on her, too.
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Ron

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2015, 08:00:55 AM »
Why don't you two make some goals that you can both work (or save) toward?

Instead of the focus being staying in budget, how about the focus be retire early, have X amount in the vacation fund, have x amount in the education fund etc.

I know the right things to do but often stray off the reservation. I've been motivating myself by reading inspirational material about proper money management. Currently I've been reading through a blog that is pretty fun. Maybe she or both of you can gain some inspiration from it yourselves.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-zero-to-hero-in-one-blog-post/
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2015, 08:46:03 AM »
I think you should ask your wife if she wants to work part time somewhere, she just may be bored at home and finds stimulation by shopping.

If you go all authoritative, your wife may lash out and go through the savings, take out a few credit cards and max them out.

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charby

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2015, 08:50:13 AM »
I don't want to be harsh, but I think this is only a symptom of the real problem.

You are the wage earner. You are in charge. So be in charge. Even though she is completely at fault, you, as the CEO of your family, have to make sure things are handled.

If you act that way you aren't going to be married very long, it's not 1955 anymore. One of my acquaintances tried that approach, his wife decided that retaliation was sleeping with some of his friends. Since we live in a no fault divorce stay, he pays a lot of alimony and child support when the divorce was final.
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Ron

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2015, 08:56:55 AM »
Oddly as I went to the site I  referenced earlier this was the next article in the series I'm reading. You need to have a vision and get her to buy in to it as a partner.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/25/having-the-talk-with-a-current-or-potential-mate/

*for Jocassee:
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« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 09:01:36 AM by Ron »
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

brimic

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2015, 09:07:32 AM »
RKL, DeSelby, and Charby gave you solid advice and warnings.
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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2015, 09:23:09 AM »
Buddy of mine just finished the 3rd round of this sort of thing in the past 5 years.  His wife works and makes good money.  He works 3rd shift (intentionally) and does a whole lt of Mr. Mom stuff as well - all without complaint.

The first time he simply switched accounts, got new credit cards in only his name while cancelling the old ones, and started moving her automatic deposit paycheck funds to the new in-his-name-only checking account the same day her paycheck was deposited.  He did all that after a long sit-down with his wife to show how deep a hole she had dug them into and a come-to-Jesus statement of "It's the only way."  The recovered financially, but shortly after he essentially switched back to the way things had been they were digging a new hole.

The second time he let things get worse before doing anything.  They had utilities cut off a few times, the bank and CC companies calling (which he recorded as she was working days) and otherwise tried real hard to get and keep a -250 credit score.  Then they went through debt consolidation through their credit union and climbed out the other side after about 2 years with a 6-month cushion.  They saved up for and took a 2-week family trip to Disney, Universal, and other Florida tourist traps attractions.  They even did an overnight stop at South Of The Border going in each direction.

He's now been informed by his wife that there might be a pothole forming in the road of financial bliss.  They are now about 4 sessions in with a family counselor who is supposed to have a good reputation with financial problems as the symptom situations.  They are going through some poorly kept and totally unorganized financial records that are scheduled to the the focus of the next several sessions.  It's the first time they will explore the "why" as well as the "what" of their financial issues.

There is a root cause for your wife's financial behavior.  You (meaning the 2 of you together) will need some help discovering what it is and figuring out what (if anything) you want to do about it.  That presumes that she is still considered a valuable member of the organization.  If not, treat her like any other employee that has nosedived and cannot pull out of a spin.

All a round-about way of telling you why I agree with RKL.

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2015, 09:47:26 AM »
Without fail, there is $100-$500 over-budget on the credit cards every month. And because I refuse to pay credit-card interest rates, we pay the cards off every month. And in this manner, $20,000 in savings has become $10,000.

Why can't Google find a Dave Ramsey facepalm anywhere?

Jocassee

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2015, 10:26:02 AM »
If you act that way you aren't going to be married very long, it's not 1955 anymore. One of my acquaintances tried that approach, his wife decided that retaliation was sleeping with some of his friends. Since we live in a no fault divorce stay, he pays a lot of alimony and child support when the divorce was final.

I guess it wasn't clear but I quoted RKL because I COMPLETELY agree that counseling is needed. I was trying to indicate that the money problem is the symptom.

As for my advice,
If you act that way you aren't going to be married very long, it's not 1955 anymore. One of my acquaintances tried that approach, his wife decided that retaliation was sleeping with some of his friends. Since we live in a no fault divorce stay, he pays a lot of alimony and child support when the divorce was final.

Did you read the original post? Dude's wife has been responsible for hemorrhaging out *half* of his nest egg. Drastic action is needed. I don't see any reason to leave her out permanently, but not until counseling has been done and responsibility has been established.

Either way, what I was driving at is that *leadership* is needed. When your lifeblood is tapping out you don't have a polite conversation about bandaging it with the person who put the hole in you, especially if that person has shown themselves incapable of doing such. You stop the bleeding, immediately.

I don't know what kind of person you guys think I am, but obviously the 100% top down dictatorial model of running a marriage is not only not ideal but in my religion it's frowned upon. My choosing of the CEO analogy was extremely intentional. CEO's delegate until they can't, then they jerk a knot in somebody's tail. And in a marriage where you can't fire the other person, trust should and in the vast majority of cases *can* be established. Which goes back to the counseling thing.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2015, 11:04:22 AM »
Gender is irrevelent in this. It could just as easily be zahc overspending and his wife being the earner in the family, and having to shut him down. Don't get distracted by the "Butbutbut it isn't the 1950s" bullshit.

The problem is that the overspender may see that there is a problem, but they don't see that they ARE the problem. See this key line in Zahc's post.

"Sometimes I get blamed because I spent $150 on a welder or something, and that totally accounts for the whole $600 we are over-budget"

Getting a part time job- is a good idea but it is temporarily alleviating a symptom. It'll give her her own money that she earned to blow, but what if she starts to dip into the family finances more? Plus what about childcare, transportation of kids to/from school, etc? Depending on the situation with all that, it could end up pricey to do that, especially if all of her salary goes to spending. Things to be considered, for sure.

Make no mistake, no matter how the problem is addressed, even with the finest counseling available, she's gonna be *expletive deleted*ing pissed off because she will see it as being personally blamed for a problem that isn't hers, even though the intention of the counseling isn't for the purpose of "this is your fault, you are a bad person". Hopefully she will take the counseling well but it may be a rough ride. Good luck.


« Last Edit: March 02, 2015, 02:45:38 PM by Boomhauer »
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brimic

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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2015, 12:23:17 PM »
Quote
And in a marriage where you can't fire the other person, trust should and in the vast majority of cases *can* be established. Which goes back to the counseling thing.


Oh, believe me, you can fire someone in a marriage...but it gets REALLY expensive.
The law sees each partner as owning 1/2 of everything, it doesn't matter if one person is a CEO of a successful company and the other is a stay at home mother.

My suggestion:
Take the take home pay, divide it in 1/2 and put it into 2 accounts, one for each spouse- then each is responsible for 1/2 of the living expenses. No credit cards, debit cards only.
Clamping down on the other's spending is only going to make them feel like they don't matter in the relationship and very bad things will manifest in other areas.
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Re: Cutting off my wife (long)
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2015, 02:01:18 PM »
Gender is irrevelent in this. It could just as easily be zahc overspending and his wife being the earner in the family, and having to shut him down. Don't get distracted by the "Butbutbut it isn't the 1950s" bullshit.

The problem is that the overspender may see that there is a problem, but they don't see that they ARE the problem. See this key line in Zahc's post.

"Sometimes I get blamed because I spent $150 on a welder or something, and that totally accounts for the whole $600 we are over-budget"

Getting a part time job- is a good idea but it is temporarily alleviating a symptom. It'll give her her own money that she earned to blow, but what if she starts to dip into the family finances more? Plus what about childcare, transportation of kids to/from school, etc? Depending on the situation with all that, it could end up pricey to do that, especially if all of her salary goes to spending. Things to be considered, for sure.

Make no mistake, no matter how the problem is addressed, even with the finest counseling available, she's gonna be *expletive deleted*ing pissed off because she will see it as being personally blamed despite being innocent. Hopefully she will take the counseling well but it may be a rough ride. Good luck.




half right. half wrong.

gender is irrelvent. you are correct. wife, husband, doesn't matter who the culprit is. It's still not going to end well with one spouse treating the other like a brainless twit (even if they are being a brainless twit) It's not the 1950's anymore, no matter who wears the damn pants.

The trick is, gender is relevant. A woman who has been raised in the modern ideals of a woman's role within a marriage is going to shut down a lot faster than a man and just react rather than deal with the problem. Zahc goes in to this conversation in full on "me big man, me make money, me decide!!!" and my money says she is going to go bat *expletive deleted*it on his ass.
Hell, he risks her going bat *expletive deleted*it on his ass if she even slightly senses the possibility that he is being condescending or Mr. Man in any way, shape or form.
Culturally, woman are in a really odd place right now, and one result is they get really defensive really quick.

She'll probably be a lot more receptive if their is a 3rd party involved, as long as she doesn't feel cornered.
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds