Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: gunsmith on June 05, 2011, 01:18:45 AM
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http://jasonswalters.blogspot.com/2011/06/review-patriots-novel-of-survival-in.html
Rawles is very knowledgeable, very hardcore, and very Christian, and this comes through in his novel. His characters consider daily bible study to be an important part of the post-apocalyptic lifestyle, which makes a certain amount of sense. Who would you rather have watching your back in a firefight: a hardcore Evangelical Christian, or the guy who camped next to you at Burning Man? It’s not a difficult question to answer.
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"Who would you rather have watching your back in a firefight: a hardcore Evangelical Christian, or the guy who camped next to you at Burning Man? It’s not a difficult question to answer."
Yea, it is. Religiousity is very nice. Doesn't guarantee the person is a hard worker, is an ethical person, the inclination to play well with others, or has useful skills. It just means they have faith within a particular religion, and make an attempt or proclaim an attempt to live within the guidelines of said religion.
Met atheists that were good people, and some that were bad people. Met some religious folks that were good people, and some that were bad people.
Review was interesting on one point. Religious ideals within the context of post-apocalyptia. I touched on it in my novella, of course. Shooting hippies is not a moral activity that you can suspend, just because the world's all blown up and whatnot. It's the moral and ethical duty of ALL Americans, religious or not, to do so on a regular basis. Preferably with Slayer on in the background.
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a hardcore Evangelical Christian, or the guy who camped next to you at Burning Man? It’s not a difficult question to answer.
I do not know where to even start with this.
All the people who are on the short list of people I'd want to be watching my back in a firefight are either atheists or some kind of radical anarchist crackpots. This is not due to the fact I am opposed to Christianity (although I am, for philosophical reasons), but because that's the sort of people whom I a associate with. (Although I am also opposed to atheism, for philosophical reasons nothing to do with the context of this thread).
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Just to intensify the discussion: "There are no athiests in foxholes."
Having been at the bottom of a foxhole and trying to get lower than the dirt bottom, I can pretty much guarantee you that the presence or absence of religiosity contributes nothing to the outcome of the situation. If anything, my opinion is that religiosity actually is a negative as it contributes a sort of fatalistic viewpoint - a sort of "no matter what I do the outcome is going to be determinmed by someone/something besides me and my actions". That is the absolute last viewpoint I want in the foxhole with me, or on "my" battlefield.
Religiosity/religion may be great for holding society - whether it be a Group of a dozen or so, or a few million or so - together when all the other trappings of "Life As We Used To Know It" are gone (and perhaps proved to have been utterly false, to boot). But unless you join it with something like base greed to get The Crusades it does little IMHO for instilling either a "I'm going to survive and come out better at the other end" or "If this really is the end I'm going to take as many of Them with me as possible to be my slaves in Valhalla" attitude. I'd want either/both of those attitudes on "my" battlefield. And without greed you get Jim Jones and The People's Temple - be sure to try the KoolAide.
All of that was to get to this: I think most readers and reviewers miss the boat when dealing with ,Rawles [sic]. His model is not religiosity/religion but spirituality - the same common element as found in the Founders. The application of guiding principles without resorting to davening on your knees.
stay safe.
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All of that was to get to this: I think most readers and reviewers miss the boat when dealing with ,Rawles [sic]. His model is not religiosity/religion but spirituality - the same common element as found in the Founders. The application of guiding principles without resorting to davening on your knees.
This; I don't need somebody who's going to claim an exemption from standing watch on the Sabbath or insist that limited resources be used to build a chapel. Acknowledgement of a higher power is not the same as thinking that a loving God cares more about standing on ceremony than keeping His children safe.
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"Who would you rather have watching your back in a firefight: a hardcore Evangelical Christian, or the guy who camped next to you at Burning Man? It’s not a difficult question to answer."
Not for me, anyway....I'd rather have neither....instead, I'd prefer having someone who is well-grounded in Christianity 101.....
(Religious leader) said, "That you love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and muscle and intelligence—and that you love your neighbor as well as you do yourself."
28"Good answer!" said Jesus. "Do it and you'll live."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010&version=MSG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2010&version=MSG)
If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate. 2If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I'm nothing. 3-7If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love.
Love never gives up.
Love cares more for others than for self.
Love doesn't want what it doesn't have.
Love doesn't strut,
Doesn't have a swelled head,
Doesn't force itself on others,
Isn't always "me first,"
Doesn't fly off the handle,
Doesn't keep score of the sins of others,
Doesn't revel when others grovel,
Takes pleasure in the flowering of truth,
Puts up with anything,
Trusts God always,
Always looks for the best,
Never looks back,
But keeps going to the end.
8-10Love never dies. Inspired speech will be over some day; praying in tongues will end; understanding will reach its limit. We know only a portion of the truth, and what we say about God is always incomplete. But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2013&version=MSG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2013&version=MSG)
36-37He said, "This is different. Get ready for trouble. Look to what you'll need; there are difficult times ahead. Pawn your coat and get a sword. What was written in Scripture, 'He was lumped in with the criminals,' gets its final meaning in me. Everything written about me is now coming to a conclusion."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:36&version=MSG (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:36&version=MSG)
There are a lot of people who call themselves Christian....but not as many who live like Christians....
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This; I don't need somebody who's going to claim an exemption from standing watch on the Sabbath or insist that limited resources be used to build a chapel. Acknowledgement of a higher power is not the same as thinking that a loving God cares more about standing on ceremony than keeping His children safe.
Amen. =)
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I'll read the review later, when I have time.
Who would you rather have watching your back in a firefight: a hardcore Evangelical Christian, or the guy who camped next to you at Burning Man? It’s not a difficult question to answer.
As for that, ehhhhhh. I'll have to think about that. Though I would be classified among ECs, by virtue of the church I'm a member of, I often do not trust their judgment.
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Yeah. I've known some hardcore religious types that I'd rather shoot in the back than have watch mine. And other's who I know would fight to the death to save my atheist ass. Claiming to be religious and going through all the correct motions doesn't make the character of the man, neither does not having a religious foundation.
As to the rest of the review
Through hard work and constant investment they purchase, stock, and fortify a small farm in rural Idaho.
I've lurked on several survivalist forums where city dwellers have done exactly that. And a very common thread is that when they are not present on thier property, the methheads loot it. If they can't get into it, they burn it. The remote, unattended compound theory has been quashed in the real world.
And, of course, gun info: lots and lots of lots of gun info, including proper maintenance, caliber size, modifications, manufacturer quality, and proper safety. In fact, there is so much information in Patriots that it interferes with Rawle’s writing style. ”
I have a real bone with preppers who obsess over guns. Having something easy to maintain, versatile, and powerful enough to defend yourself with is the important part of having a firearm. Being able to heashot a rabbit and clean it, and then having the balls to shoot a looter is way more important than what caliber, make, model, and modifications the gun is or has. Being shot with a .22lr doesn't sound any more pleasant than being shot by a zomg .338lapua battle riflez!!1!!!oneeleventy!
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I have a real bone with preppers who obsess over guns.
Yeah. Cause when the militant Jews and their circumcision teams kick off World War III, knives will be the deciding factor.
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I don't care what you believe, just believe in something.
[/book]
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Does the novel mention wheelbarrows at all, or duct-taping trauma plates to your back?
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I guess I should have quoted something else, here at the north western edge of NV you deal with a lot of burningman ppl. Some of them quite nice, one or two (BM) residents have a couple of guns around but do not ccw or practice.
The majority of them come out from the San Francisco area spend a ton of money for a week or two but you really wouldn't want them watching your 6. ( their politics consist of Bush/NRA are bad & Che/Obama are saints, pass the X please)
In talking with Jason he's mentioned that the book has other main characters that are in the group and are not Christians.
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I have a real bone with preppers who obsess over guns. Having something easy to maintain, versatile, and powerful enough to defend yourself with is the important part of having a firearm. Being able to heashot a rabbit and clean it, and then having the balls to shoot a looter is way more important than what caliber, make, model, and modifications the gun is or has. Being shot with a .22lr doesn't sound any more pleasant than being shot by a zomg .338lapua battle riflez!!1!!!oneeleventy!
Agreed....someone with a simple battery of reliable firearms will fare better than the tacticool bunch....in a SHTF situation like that, my go-to guns will probably be my Blackhawk .357Mag and my Romanian .22lr bolt-action rifle...both rugged and reliable....
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I have a real bone with preppers who obsess over guns. Having something easy to maintain, versatile, and powerful enough to defend yourself with is the important part of having a firearm. Being able to heashot a rabbit and clean it, and then having the balls to shoot a looter is way more important than what caliber, make, model, and modifications the gun is or has. Being shot with a .22lr doesn't sound any more pleasant than being shot by a zomg .338lapua battle riflez!!1!!!oneeleventy!
In my view, a lot of 'preppers' are not truly prepping because they seriously are preparing for a disaster, but for other - valid! - reasons having very little to do with disaster preparedness. For many of these people it is just a form of extended game of Robinson Crusoe.
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I have read Patriots: Surviving the Coming Collapse, loved it. Haven't read the newer version. He goes into a lot more than just firearms.
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In my view, a lot of 'preppers' are not truly prepping because they seriously are preparing for a disaster, but for other - valid! - reasons having very little to do with disaster preparedness. For many of these people it is just a form of extended game of Robinson Crusoe.
Correct - what would they do if something really bad happened, like the internet went down! :O
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In my view, a lot of 'preppers' are not truly prepping because they seriously are preparing for a disaster, but for other - valid! - reasons having very little to do with disaster preparedness. For many of these people it is just a form of extended game of Robinson Crusoe.
Ain't nothing wrong with a hobby. And honestly, I see the preppers are being usually more prepared than "survivalists" (of the internet keyboard kommando variety). There ARE batches of survivalists that do know what they're doing, are reasonably sane and are not complete fools (ie have a 401k and retirement investments as well as a basement full of whatever). They're just rare.
On another forum, I posted a long thing on how to accurately plan for disasters in a systematic way. Even tossed in templates for planning purposes and whatnot. Got one post. On a typical "What do I do to prepare for SHTF" thread, there's 40-50 responses with random stuff that one should obtain, with no planning or whatnot behind it. Random stuff is nice. Systematic stuff is good. Planning is better. I honestly expected this sort of reaction, and was having a beer laughing at it. I can repost here if anyone is interested. But again, I doubt they are.
Leads me to believe that folks are generally a) not serious, b) not one hundredth as prepared as they like to think or (most likely) c) they don't actually CARE about risk mitigation and just want a fuzzy security blanket to make themselves feel all warm and comfy. Think security theater. But combined with the interwebz.
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" The remote, unattended compound theory has been quashed in the real world." JJ
Yep- an isolated compound is a sitting duck -proven again and again in places like Rhodesia, South Africa, Argentina, etc.
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Well, our remote compound is fairly well attended since we live here. ;)
I'm sure that there's lot's more that we could/need to do to prepare for whatever it is we need to prepare for.
I did spend $3K on a hand pump installation just to make sure that we would have a supply of water if the power goes out. That's an awful expensive lawn ornament that I hope we don't really have to use.
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I live in an isolated compound, we prep by necessity, not on the grid at all. solar/wind feed the batts and we have back up gens that we use quite a bit.
150miles one way to do real shopping so we buy as much as we can, I do not own a 22LR but Jason has two or three, after reading this book he intends to up his supply - he has only about 800 rounds of 22LR & my reserve of 22LR is around 100 from when I had one.
The book seems like it has lots of useful stuff in it.
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The book seems like it has lots of useful stuff in it.
Yes, it has quite a bit of useful stuff. It also has some real fiction. If you are reading it to glean all the notions about how to survive the coming whatever, be sure to do some research on brands and other specific equipment suggestions, as well as the concepts of barter and trade amongst the recently heathenized. Some of our own authors have put together better suggestions that ,Rawles [sic] does in many parts of a good read.
stay safe.
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yup.
I'm trying to stock up on coffee of various kind, thru luck I've acquired about a 2 or 3 month supply of instant coffee from Starbucks, really high quality , taste like brewed.
& we/I buy coffee almost every trip to town, I figure that's always good for trade.
Ammo, tea, sugar, too.
I don't smoke or drink so I'm thinking I might stock up on booze/ciggs/tobacco for trade.
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I'm reading Rawles non-fiction book, "How to Survive the End of the World as We Know It", now.
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I'm reading Rawles non-fiction book, "How to Survive the End of the World as We Know It", now.
For us older folks, the world isn't anything like we knew it ... =|
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For us older folks, the world isn't anything like we knew it ... =|
I'm 26, and that applies to me as well =|.
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I'm 26, and that applies to me as well =|.
As I think I've told you before, "ya ain't seen nothin' yet."
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I read this book a while back. A buddy loaned it to me, I think wanting me to think that everything in there was a good idea. FWIW this buddy of mine is actually a friend's father, so he's got some years on me.
Crappy fiction, I suppose, and some "fun" stuff to think about, but like somebody already said the idea of planning for 10 years to build up this remote compound, everybody buying identical vehicles, weapons, etc, and then the collapse actually happening... eh, no, that's too much "what if" for my life.
I could see buying up some remote properties with some friends if, like, we used it as a hunting cabin or something for yearly trips, but without that there's no way I could justify it.
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Some of us just don't like to live in the city to begin with. ;)
Really it's kind of crowded around here for me. I'd rather have about 20 sections up at the foot of the Snowy Mountains. =)
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I have a real bone with preppers who obsess over guns. Having something easy to maintain, versatile, and powerful enough to defend yourself with is the important part of having a firearm. Being able to heashot a rabbit and clean it, and then having the balls to shoot a looter is way more important than what caliber, make, model, and modifications the gun is or has. Being shot with a .22lr doesn't sound any more pleasant than being shot by a zomg .338lapua battle riflez!!1!!!oneeleventy!
Agree, most non-gun people, especially those that don't have time to spend a lot of time on the range or money on guns would be best served with a Ruger 10/22, some factory mags, and a few bricks of quality ammo. MUCH easier to become proficient and stay proficient with a .22 than a centerfire weapon. Same goes for a pistol if they really want one (Ruger Mk II or Mk III guns or the Buckmarks)
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You mean a group of friends deciding to pull there resources together to help defend each other by all going to a place that is remote and fortified is bad? ??? I don't recall them all having the same vehicle, in fact I think one even had a mustang. And them all having a gun that can share mags and use the same kind of ammo, doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.
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Agree, most non-gun people, especially those that don't have time to spend a lot of time on the range or money on guns would be best served with a Ruger 10/22, some factory mags, and a few bricks of quality ammo. MUCH easier to become proficient and stay proficient with a .22 than a centerfire weapon. Same goes for a pistol if they really want one (Ruger Mk II or Mk III guns or the Buckmarks)
I just saw a post on another gun forum -- a guy looking for advice on his first rifle. He doesn't hunt, and wants something capable of taking a deer, to feed his family "in case the SHTF". :facepalm:
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I just saw a post on another gun forum -- a guy looking for advice on his first rifle. He doesn't hunt, and wants something capable of taking a deer, to feed his family "in case the SHTF". :facepalm:
Besides having no clue of how to process a deer (or any other animal), he obviously hasn't considered that other people in the area are going to also hunt said deer and the local deer population surely can't last long.
Besides that at least in my area, if you see a deer in the woods, you are generally close enough to shoot it in the head with a .22 and poach it. Distances aren't exactly vast in the often overgrown woods around here.
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You mean a group of friends deciding to pull there resources together to help defend each other by all going to a place that is remote and fortified is bad? ??? I don't recall them all having the same vehicle, in fact I think one even had a mustang. And them all having a gun that can share mags and use the same kind of ammo, doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.
Diversity is a good thing, regardless of the military's hardon for trying to do everything with 5.56. For scouts, the M16 and variants are great; light, small, low recoil. For stationary guard posts, lightweight isn't nearly as important; give them a serious cartridge, or even a good crew-served weapon. In a vehicle, short but powerful is best for the primary weapon, (AR10 or similar) and there's no good reason not to stuff a really good sniper rifle behind the seat.
Having other cartridges for the game-getters also keeps you from inadvertently using up defense ammo on hunting and vice versa. Obviously you can still use, say, .243 for defense, but it takes a conscious decision to switch rifles rather than just spray-and-pray everything in your foxhole and then realize you can't get meat anymore.
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Aye. I finished his novel in a single day. Couple of thoughts. Dude is real religious, apparently thinks everyone else is either real religious (or working at being real religious) or else they are a very bad/dangerous person.
His thinking is not very flexible. He has his way, and that are not flexible. Boris phrased it quite well. If you are not prepared to follow his type of thinking, you may find the book somewhat but not extremely useful. I am not saying it's worthless. I'm just saying it has limited amounts of use.
If you read the novel, be prepared for every stereotypical right wing fantasy. From the only liberals being communist cannibals to the UN invading/occupying the US to "Wolverines" overthrowing federal government slash UN globalist slash Jewish banking conspiracy. I noted the half hearted attempt at tokenism. Those parts made me physically cringe. Because a) it's such a simplistic view of the world that the stupidity is actually painful and b) it shows the very sharp limits of the guy's knowledge. If the above sounds awesome, it's not written as well as you think. The characters can and are often flat/hollow. The action scenes start getting written better towards the tail end, but the ending is badly written and abbreviated. "And then we wins!!! And everyone accepts religion, and we's haves gold standard, ands the economy magically fixes itself, and the wimmin know their place, ands the evil Europeans pay us to allow them to leave, and we add fifty billion Constitutional amendments" Etc, etc.
The guy may or may not be very knowledgeable about survivalism techniques and equipment. But he bases his entire life around theology, more so than anything truly objective. Yes, yes, he no doubt studies all kinds of niche "survival" skills. But at the expense of generalist knowledge of banking, commerce, economics, politics, and foreign culture. Among several dozen other fairly major spheres of knowledge. It is very apparent that the guy has significant deficiencies in his scope of knowledge. But in fairness, the areas he has applied himself to, he is quite knowledgeable.