Author Topic: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves  (Read 3767 times)

MicroBalrog

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'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« on: July 16, 2008, 12:15:15 AM »
Home owners and have-a go-heroes have for the first time been given the legal right to defend themselves against burglars and muggers free from fear of prosecution.

They will be able to use force against criminals who break into their homes or attack them in the street without worrying that "heat of the moment misjudgements could see them brought before the courts.

Under new laws police and prosecutors will have to assess a persons actions based on the persons situation "as they saw it at the time even if in hindsight it could be seen as unreasonable.

For example, homeowners would be able stab or shoot a burglar if confronted or tackle them and use force to detain them until police arrive. Muggers could be legally punched and beaten in the street or have their own weapons used against them.

However, attacking a fleeing criminal with a weapon is not permitted nor is lying in wait to ambush them.

The new laws follow a growing public campaign for people to be given the right to defend themselves and their own homes in the wake of a number of high profile cases.

In 2000, Tony Martin, the Norfolk farmer, was sent to prison for manslaughter for shooting an intruder in his home.

Earlier this year, Tony Singh, a shopkeeper, found himself facing a murder charge after he defended himself against an armed robber who tried to steal his takings. During the struggle the robber received a single fatal stab wound to the heart with his own knife.

The Crown Prosecution Service eventually decided Mr Singh should not be charged.

Until now people have had to prove in court that they acted in self defence but the changes mean police and the Crown Prosecution Service will decide on cases before this stage.

Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, said that people would be protected legally if they defend themselves "instinctively; they fear for their own safety or that of others; and the level of force used is not excessive or disproportionate.

He added the changes in law were designed to ensure the criminal justice system was weighted in favour of the victim.

Mr Straw  and other Labour ministers  have previously repeatedly blocked attempts by opposition MPs to give greater protection to householders.

In 2004 Tony Blair promised to review the existing legislation after he admitted there was "genuine public concern about the issue.

But his pledge was dropped weeks later after the then Home Secretary Charles Clarke concluded that the current law was "sound.

Two Private Members Bills on the issue were tabled by the Tories around the time of the 2005 general election, but both were sunk by the Government.

In 2004, a Tory Bill designed to give the public the right to forcibly tackle burglars was also rejected.

The new self defence law, which came into force yesterday, is contained in the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 and was announced by Mr Straw last September.

He is understood to have decided new laws were necessary after he was involved in four "have-a go incidents, which included chasing and restraining muggers near his south London home.

Opposition leaders said it offered nothing new and was merely the latest policy designed to appeal to core Tory voters.

In practice, householders are seldom prosecuted if they harm or even kill an intruder but the Act will give them greater legal protection.

Nick Herbert, the Shadow Justice Secretary, said: "This is a typical Labour con  it will give no greater protection to householders confronted by burglars because its nothing more than a re-statement of the existing case law.

Mr Straw said: "The justice system must not only work on the side of people who do the right thing as good citizens, but also be seen to work on their side.

"The Government strongly supports the right of law abiding people to defend themselves, their families and their property with reasonable force. This law will help to make sure that that right is upheld and that the criminal justice system is firmly weighted in favour of the victim.

"Dealing with crime is not just the responsibility of the police, courts and prisons; its the responsibility of all of us. Communities with the lowest crime and the greatest safety are the ones with the most active citizens with a greater sense of shared values, inspired by a sense of belonging and duty to others, who are empowered by the state and are also supported by it  in other words, making a reality of justice.

"These changes in the law will make clear  victims of crime, and those who intervene to prevent crime, should be treated with respect by the justice system. We do not want to encourage vigilantism, but there can be no justice in a system which makes the victim the criminal."

It came as it emerged that homeowners could have to wait up to three days after reporting a crime to see a police officer, according to a leaked draft of the Policing Green Paper.

It sets out new national standards for local policing for all 43 forces cross England and Wales.

Callers to the police will be given set times within which officers will attend an incident.

The paper says that this will be "within three hours it if requires policing intervention or three days if there is less immediate need for a police presence."

However, the Home Office would not comment on the plans.


Story from Telegraph News:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/2303004/Have-a-go-heroes-get-legal-right-to-defend-themselves.html
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wmenorr67

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2008, 12:44:02 AM »
Quote
In practice, householders are seldom prosecuted if they harm or even kill an intruder but the Act will give them greater legal protection.

Thought that the opposite was true.

But you have to use the bad guys own weapon instead of one of your own.  At least it is progress.
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Iain

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2008, 01:00:44 AM »
Quote
In practice, householders are seldom prosecuted if they harm or even kill an intruder but the Act will give them greater legal protection.

Thought that the opposite was true.
Too much THR

Quote
But you have to use the bad guys own weapon instead of one of your own.  At least it is progress.

Don't know how you got that from this article.

Nick Herbert, the Shadow Justice Secretary, said: "This is a typical Labour con – it will give no greater protection to householders confronted by burglars because it’s nothing more than a re-statement of the existing case law.”

Impossible. Labour would never do anything like this. All the understanding I have gleaned about the law in this area indicates that Herbert is correct, in fact to my eyes that whole article reads like a restatement of the Home Office guidelines issued a couple of years ago, the last time the 'we ain't got no rights to self-defence' crowd were particularly vocal.
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wmenorr67

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2008, 01:07:46 AM »
Quote
Don't know how you got that from this article.

Taking it more from the fact that most if not all firearms are banned and the carrying of knives also seems to be a big no no.  So the only ones that would have a weapon would be the bad guy.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2008, 01:20:21 AM »
It specifically says that

Quote
Muggers could be legally punched and beaten in the street or have their own weapons used against them.

Don't see many options, there.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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seeker_two

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2008, 01:43:25 AM »
It specifically says that

Quote
Muggers could be legally punched and beaten in the street or have their own weapons used against them.

Don't see many options, there.

Yep....I'm sure that small women, paraplegics, and the invalid appreciate the clarification of the law....  rolleyes
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MicroBalrog

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2008, 01:44:10 AM »
It specifically says that

Quote
Muggers could be legally punched and beaten in the street or have their own weapons used against them.

Don't see many options, there.

Yep....I'm sure that small women, paraplegics, and the invalid appreciate the clarification of the law....  rolleyes

As well as guys like me.

Most people, you know, are not martial artists.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

agricola

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2008, 01:58:10 AM »
Ah, the Greater Policy Zombie is raised once again from its peaceful slumber by a deliberately misleading media and desperate politicans. 

Quote
Earlier this year, Tony Singh, a shopkeeper, found himself facing a murder charge after he defended himself against an armed robber who tried to steal his takings. During the struggle the robber received a single fatal stab wound to the heart with his own knife.

The Crown Prosecution Service eventually decided Mr Singh should not be charged.

Until now people have had to prove in court that they acted in self defence but the changes mean police and the Crown Prosecution Service will decide on cases before this stage.

Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, said that people would be protected legally if they defend themselves "instinctively; they fear for their own safety or that of others; and the level of force used is not excessive or disproportionate.

Interesting... Singh was never charged, he never appeared in Court, and the Police and CPS as they have under the current system, which provides all of the protections this "new" policy claims to provide made the decision not to charge him without him having to go to Court.  Iain is quite correct, this is the usual suspects trying desperately do demonstrate how tough they are by making a whole load of noise whilst doing absolutely nothing.

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_headline=shopkeeper-tony-singh-to-faces-no-charges-over-mugger-liam-kilroe-s-death&method=full&objectid=20534825&siteid=50061-name_page.html

I do repeat my wish that people would at least recognize what they have been told instead of continually falling for these various fibs.
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HankB

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2008, 04:52:50 AM »
Quote
Mr Straw  and other Labour ministers  have previously repeatedly blocked attempts by opposition MPs to give greater protection to householders.
Perhaps this was done in an effort to protect their core constituency?
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MechAg94

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2008, 05:02:23 AM »
Ah, the Greater Policy Zombie is raised once again from its peaceful slumber by a deliberately misleading media and desperate politicans. 

Quote
Earlier this year, Tony Singh, a shopkeeper, found himself facing a murder charge after he defended himself against an armed robber who tried to steal his takings. During the struggle the robber received a single fatal stab wound to the heart with his own knife.

The Crown Prosecution Service eventually decided Mr Singh should not be charged.

Until now people have had to prove in court that they acted in self defence but the changes mean police and the Crown Prosecution Service will decide on cases before this stage.

Jack Straw, the Justice Secretary, said that people would be protected legally if they defend themselves "instinctively; they fear for their own safety or that of others; and the level of force used is not excessive or disproportionate.

Interesting... Singh was never charged, he never appeared in Court, and the Police and CPS as they have under the current system, which provides all of the protections this "new" policy claims to provide made the decision not to charge him without him having to go to Court.  Iain is quite correct, this is the usual suspects trying desperately do demonstrate how tough they are by making a whole load of noise whilst doing absolutely nothing.

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_headline=shopkeeper-tony-singh-to-faces-no-charges-over-mugger-liam-kilroe-s-death&method=full&objectid=20534825&siteid=50061-name_page.html

I do repeat my wish that people would at least recognize what they have been told instead of continually falling for these various fibs.
Regardless of if he was charged or not, I would appreciate the idea of getting it laid down in the law so I am not at the mercy of prosecutors and judges properly interpreting case law.

Also, I didn't see if it mentioned 3rd parties?  What if some guys witness a mugging and go mob the mugger and beat him senseless...er..I mean stop him?  Smiley 
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agricola

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2008, 05:23:28 AM »
Regardless of if he was charged or not, I would appreciate the idea of getting it laid down in the law so I am not at the mercy of prosecutors and judges properly interpreting case law.

Also, I didn't see if it mentioned 3rd parties?  What if some guys witness a mugging and go mob the mugger and beat him senseless...er..I mean stop him?  Smiley 

It already is in caselaw (numerous cases over the past 30 years) and guidance for the CPS (published a while back, referred to by Iain), which is why the decision was reached so quickly in the Singh case (eleven days from the incident taking place to the CPS announcing no charges would be brought).  A specific law, no doubt written by one of the incompetents that infest our Government and the House of Commons, is both unnecessary (given our Common Law system) and unwelcome (they would inevitably either use it to score points or make the situation worse). 

As for third parties, there is no distinction over here between force (up to and including lethal) used in your own defence and similar levels of force used in defence of another (where appropriate, of course).  I know a while back (ill try and find the link) a rapist was chased and caught somewhere in the north east by a gang of lads who proceeded to "effectively detain him until Police arrived"  grin grin
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Antibubba

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2008, 05:58:55 AM »
Quote
have-a go-heroes

"I say, those hooligans are going to beat that widow to death!  Nigel, care to join me as I have a go at them?"

"Let me finish my pint, chap, and I'll join in."

Is the term "Good Samaritan" now dead in the Isles?
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Leatherneck

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2008, 06:07:28 AM »
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The new laws follow a growing public campaign for people to be given the right to defend themselves and their own homes
It just makes me cringe to think of living in a country where the government can give citizens rights.  shocked

TC
TC
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2008, 07:15:33 AM »
Quote
The new laws follow a growing public campaign for people to be given the right to defend themselves and their own homes
It just makes me cringe to think of living in a country where the government can give citizens rights.  shocked

TC

Thats right, at least here in the good ole USA they just take them away a little at a time. rolleyes
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agricola

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2008, 08:12:48 AM »
Quote
The new laws follow a growing public campaign for people to be given the right to defend themselves and their own homes
It just makes me cringe to think of living in a country where the government can give citizens rights.  shocked

TC

As I said above, we already have this right and have done for many centuries - but the Government seeks to claim that it is giving us that which we already have, and a manipulative media wants to claim the credit for it.
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Iapetus

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2008, 09:41:32 AM »
Quote
have-a go-heroes

"I say, those hooligans are going to beat that widow to death!  Nigel, care to join me as I have a go at them?"

"Let me finish my pint, chap, and I'll join in."

Is the term "Good Samaritan" now dead in the Isles?

No, it just tends to be used to describe people who provide non-combat help (like e.g. the original Good Samaratin).

seeker_two

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2008, 10:58:29 AM »
Quote
The new laws follow a growing public campaign for people to be given the right to defend themselves and their own homes
It just makes me cringe to think of living in a country where the government can give citizens rights.  shocked

TC

As I said above, we already have this right and have done for many centuries - but the Government seeks to claim that it is giving us that which we already have, and a manipulative media wants to claim the credit for it.

Wow.....our nations are more alike than I thought.....just read the Heller coverage.....
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Hawkmoon

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2008, 08:05:48 PM »
"Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes three hours away."

Certainly makes ME feel all warm and fuzzy, doesn't it you?
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Manedwolf

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Re: 'Have-a-go heroes' get legal right to defend themselves
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2008, 08:08:26 PM »
Quote
have-a go-heroes

"I say, those hooligans are going to beat that widow to death!  Nigel, care to join me as I have a go at them?"

"Let me finish my pint, chap, and I'll join in."

Is the term "Good Samaritan" now dead in the Isles?

In Britain, maybe.

In Ireland, I suspect all the local pubs would empty of people coming out to take a good swing at the perp, and the local constable would swear that all the broken bones were because they'd fallen down while bothering a lady. Wink