Author Topic: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"  (Read 3758 times)

230RN

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Approximately 8:30 AM during this past week:

I was parked in the handicapped spot nearest a hardware store in Edgewater CO near Sloan's Lake, came out hobbling with my cane, opened my car door, and put the stuff in the passenger seat along with my cane.  The rest of the parking lot was mostly empty at that time in the AM.

I had been smelling what I thought was brake fluid on the way, so decided that this would be a good time to check things out under the hood.  

I opened it and looked, no brake fluid near the ABS system or the master cylinders.  Decided to get some paper towels out of the back of the station wagon to open the brake fluid reservoir, and just as I passed by my still-open driver's side door saw a guy with a store's plastic shopping bag walking in my general direction from about forty yards away.  Bus stop was in a different direction to which he was going, but there are residences that way, condos and a small mobile home park.

I was standing there watching him, and he changed direction slightly and started walking directly toward me when he noticed that I had seen him.

My learned reactions from literally dozens of "approaches" in downtown Denver kicked in, and when he was about fifteen yards from me, I said, "I don't have anything for you."  

He didn't stop, but kept coming.  At about ten yards he started to say something, but I put my left hand up palm forward and repeated loudly, "I don't have anything for you."  

Then he turned around and, surprisingly, walked back in the direction from which he had come, instead of continuing past me toward the condos or mobile homes.   I did not look around for accomplices.

After he had gone about fifty yards I got the paper towel and checked the brake fluid reservoir*,  meantime eyeballing him until he disappeared.

I had my J-frame in my pants pocket, but didn't even think about it until it was all over.  This is probably because in all my encounters in Denver, I couldn't carry because of workplace restrictions, so I had no real situation training to remember that I was armed.    

(It's a small gun, always there, and I'm not conscious of it every moment.  Like you don't think about the shoes you're wearing, if you see what I mean.)

He could have been merely wanting to help this old cripple, but then why did he change direction directly toward me when he saw I had seen him?

And why did he turn around and go back the way he came when I rebuffed him?

So.  Was I just being excessively fearful with "geriatric paranoia," or did I react appropriately?  What lessons should I learn?

Terry, 230RN

* Was OK, pedal does not go down under constant force, and I'm going to get it checked out by the pros.  In the meantime, I ain't tailgating nobody.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 12:27:10 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Boomhauer

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2014, 12:06:41 AM »
You made him. You reacted appropriately, just try to remember all the tools you have at your disposal next time.

Whether he was looking to panhandle or roll you, the sudden response to him (most would not have even seen him till he was right next to them) threw him for a loop and he aborted.

I'll take the opportunity to post a link to Southnarc's most excellent Managing Unknown Contacts. Southnarc is a streetwise cop from the ATL area who's done a lot of undercover work and does a lot of classes these days for close quarters personal defense and handling situations. It's a good read, and you ought to refresh yourself with it from time to time http://www.triangletactical.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/sncontacts.pdf


Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

cosine

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2014, 12:16:00 AM »
I've taken Southnarc's ECQC class.

Your situation was a textbook example for managing unknown contacts. Managing the approach of an unknown contact at a distance, especially when the unknown contact modifies his trajectory to intercept you, was exactly the right thing to do
Andy

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2014, 12:23:33 AM »
I've been about 3 seconds away from shooting someone who approached my car. In my case the distance was 10 yards and as soon as I opened my car door to get out the guy made a sharp 45 deg turn off the sidewalk to approach me. A strong verbal discouragement and a raised hand got him stopped, but I was in the start of a drawstroke.  :mad:  No idea what people are not thinking. In my case it wasn't paranoid, several other people who slightly knew me saw it and didn't get it either.

Is your cane hickory? If I ever get lucky enough to get old I'm going to take up stick fighting as a hobby.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Boomhauer

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2014, 12:29:18 AM »
I've been about 3 seconds away from shooting someone who approached my car. In my case the distance was 10 yards and as soon as I opened my car door to get out the guy made a sharp 45 deg turn off the sidewalk to approach me. A strong verbal discouragement and a raised hand got him stopped, but I was in the start of a drawstroke.  :mad:  No idea what people are not thinking. In my case it wasn't paranoid, several other people who slightly knew me saw it and didn't get it either.

Is your cane hickory? If I ever get lucky enough to get old I'm going to take up stick fighting as a hobby.
I've taken Southnarc's ECQC class.

Your situation was a textbook example for managing unknown contacts. Managing the approach of an unknown contact at a distance, especially when the unknown contact modifies his trajectory to intercept you, was exactly the right thing to do

And this kind of person's tactics depends a lot on getting close to you and being in your personal zone before you notice. Once they've been made at a distance it ruins their strategy.

A likely place of encounter of these types is at a gas station, too. 95 percent of the time when someone trys the "get close to him" approach it's at a gas station within a couple of blocks of a liquor store.

Quote
I've been about 3 seconds away from shooting someone who approached my car. In my case the distance was 10 yards and as soon as I opened my car door to get out the guy made a sharp 45 deg turn off the sidewalk to approach me. A strong verbal discouragement and a raised hand got him stopped, but I was in the start of a drawstroke.  angry  No idea what people are not thinking. In my case it wasn't paranoid, several other people who slightly knew me saw it and didn't get it either.

Is your cane hickory? If I ever get lucky enough to get old I'm going to take up stick fighting as a hobby.

At about 6am one fine morning I swung by my dad's business before heading to the airport to go flying. Now this is a normally deserted area at this time of the morning, and it's not a business open to the public, it's a non-descript building with virtually no signage or parking, really looks like a closed place. I had dropped by to get some gatorades from the fridge.

Right as I pulled in and was about to unlock the door, a shitty '80s model sedan suddenly swung in and blocked me in and the guy driving it and a woman in the passenger seat jumped out quickly and started to advance. They got an 870 in the face (too young to own a pistol, but could own a shotgun!) He still had the gall to try to sputter some story about gas money before I convinced him to leave...



Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

vaskidmark

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2014, 07:54:46 AM »
Can't believe nobody has said it yet:

Just because you are paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you.

Practice using your Command Voice is always good.

You left with the same number of holes as when you arrived, and apparently none of yur fluids were leaking.  Pretty much the standard definition of You Done OKTM.

Discussion of this 15-year old tome has been circulating on the inter tubez of late  http://www.amazon.com/The-Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440226198  Couple it with Southnarc's writing, even if you get no additional training, puts one at least a step ahead of the game.  Thinking about what they have to say and how you could apply some/all of it increases the number of steps.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2014, 09:40:35 AM »
Practice checking for threats.  He could have been a distraction while an accomplice was circling around.
I had a guy circle through parked cars at me while I was loading groceries with two kids under the age of 3 in tow.  I caught a glimpse of him after I'd turned to tell the "can you spare some gas money" guy to bugger off. 
I was about as close as I've ever been to opening fire when I caught the pincher move being performed, but a loud, angry command voice got them to back off.  Hand on pistol, halfway out of holster. 
JD

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2014, 10:14:03 AM »
You made him. You reacted appropriately, just try to remember all the tools you have at your disposal next time.

Whether he was looking to panhandle or roll you, the sudden response to him (most would not have even seen him till he was right next to them) threw him for a loop and he aborted.

Agreed.

You acted as appropriately as you could, considering that you forgot you had a gun:facepalm:
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Tallpine

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2014, 10:22:30 AM »
I'm glad you're okay  =)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Ben

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2014, 10:22:57 AM »
Very good situational awareness - better than my own on all too many occasions.

Out of curiosity, how was he dressed? Right or wrong, I often use that as an indicator when someone enters one of my "zones".
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

French G.

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2014, 10:39:44 AM »
Practice checking for threats.  He could have been a distraction while an accomplice was circling around.
I had a guy circle through parked cars at me while I was loading groceries with two kids under the age of 3 in tow.  I caught a glimpse of him after I'd turned to tell the "can you spare some gas money" guy to bugger off. 
I was about as close as I've ever been to opening fire when I caught the pincher move being performed, but a loud, angry command voice got them to back off.  Hand on pistol, halfway out of holster. 

Yes, i am very bad about locking on to one thing. Last time I did it was with 4 legs, I had bambi #1 all figured out, but bambi #2 popped out in the opposite side of the scene and there was no missing that one.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2014, 12:45:24 PM »
When in a situation such as that, I've found that cowering in fear works really well. I am after all, a Chair Force pansy.  :rofl: [ar15]
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

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Lee

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2014, 02:52:00 PM »
It's not my place to judge. Gut feelings are the best thing to listen to. And you best understand your capabilities and limits.
I've always lived by the "be nice to everyone, but be prepared to kill them" credo.
I've give a few bucks to panhandlers, Ive also told them "can't today man".
Ive been fortunate that I've never been assaulted. But then, for whatever reason, most people seem to thnk that Im the one who is going to assault them ha ha.

lee n. field

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2014, 04:34:09 PM »
Practice checking for threats.  He could have been a distraction while an accomplice was circling around.
I had a guy circle through parked cars at me while I was loading groceries with two kids under the age of 3 in tow.  I caught a glimpse of him after I'd turned to tell the "can you spare some gas money" guy to bugger off.  
I was about as close as I've ever been to opening fire when I caught the pincher move being performed, but a loud, angry command voice got them to back off.  Hand on pistol, halfway out of holster.  

That, and 230RN's thread starting post, reminds me of a post on THR mod Xavier Breath's blog, talking about the time he spotted a couple of human predators circling in on his 12 year old daughter in a Walmart.

I'll see if I can't find the link.  Encounter at WalMart

Quote
It seemed an eternity looking into the menacing, sneering face of the hoodlum who had began his approach from my rear. He sized up the man with the gun, a little girl behind him. I heard nothing to my rear. Not a word was spoken. Then "God damned mother *expletive deleted*er......." he snarled as he sauntered away. I said nothing. I couldn't.

(Good blog, while it lasted.)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 04:37:37 PM by lee n. field »
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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2014, 06:21:59 PM »
Very good situational awareness - better than my own on all too many occasions.

Out of curiosity, how was he dressed? Right or wrong, I often use that as an indicator when someone enters one of my "zones".

If I don't like someone's behavior, they're a threat.  The two that were looking hard at me were dressed "average poor" in my book.  Jeans, flannel shirts.  the one from the front had a hat on.  Appropriate for the time of year.  Not gang wear, not street bum.
Obviously, clothing can be an indicator though.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Tallpine

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2014, 07:10:09 PM »
I guess we're all average poor in Montana  =|
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2014, 07:21:32 PM »
I guess we're all average poor in Montana  =|

Would you feel better if I'd described it as working man's clothes?  ;/ 
Quality of said clothing has a lot to do with describing it that way.  And considering where I was (in the burbs) it was an accurate description.

JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

Tallpine

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2014, 08:18:14 PM »
Was he wearing a ball cap, too  ???   =D
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

230RN

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2014, 10:18:24 PM »
Quote
"...just try to remember all the tools you have at your disposal next time."

"You acted as appropriately as you could, considering that you forgot you had a gun.  Face Palm!"

Maybe I'm getting too used to carrying it*.  I didn't even think of putting my right hand in my pocket to prepare for a draw.  As mentioned, this is because of the many unarmed contacts I've had in Denver when I worked there for over 16 years.

Quote
"...especially when the unknown contact modifies his trajectory to intercept you, was exactly the right thing to do"

Well, that's why I posted about the situation.  He could have been an ordinary person who changed his trajectory toward me merely because he thought I was looking at him for help.  But as I said, my "Denver Reactions" took over and I automatically assumed a suspicious/defensive attitude.  Chances are 50-50 that he walked away thinking "What a crazy old coot."  But as the saying goes, it's not the odds that matter, it's the stakes involved.  His walking back to where he came from confirmed but did not prove my suspicions.

Quote
Is your cane hickory? If I ever get lucky enough to get old I'm going to take up stick fighting as a hobby.

Yes, my go-to car cane is stout hickory or birch, not sure which.  (I've got other canes for around the house, but I can make it to the car from the house without one.)  I've had to hold the cane downtown in <ahem> a non-peaceable manner several times.  (Left hand on shaft, right hand near crook.)  I've often thought of putting a lanyard on it.  You can carry a cane anyhow, though.  Put a pebble in your shoe so you limp. :)  (No, you don't really have to. :) )

Quote
A likely place of encounter of these types is at a gas station, too. 95 percent of the time when someone trys the "get close to him" approach it's at a gas station within a couple of blocks of a liquor store.

Haven't had that happen at a gas station, but it did at an unattended car wash while I was riffling through my wallet for a $5 bill.  Right after the "Hey, buddy, can you spare..." he spotted the J-frame on the passenger seat and walked away again.  Didn't see him coming while I was focused on my wallet.  (I take the gun out of my pocket while driving and the hell with the bus drivers who might spot it at traffic lights.  Perfectly legal here in CO.)  I note that Florida recently passed a law allowing brandishing in certain instances.

Quote
You left with the same number of holes as when you arrived, and apparently none of yur fluids were leaking.  Pretty much the standard definition of You Done OKTM.

Thanks, gave me a chuckle, especially since my concern was with a brake fluid leak.

Quote
"Practice checking for threats.  He could have been a distraction while an accomplice was circling around."


"Yes, I am very bad about locking on to one thing. Last time I did it was with 4 legs, I had bambi #1 all figured out, but bambi #2 popped out in the opposite side of the scene and there was no missing that one."

That was my biggest tactical error.  

I tell ya true, since I retired and no longer work in Denver, I've got a little lax about situational awareness.  First of all, I was concerned about checking the brake fluid and it was, frankly, by pure accident that I spotted him in the first place as I went around to the back of the car.   And then when I was watching him approach, I didn't "check my six," although the car was behind me and the open car door  was shielding me on the right.  Couldn't call it smart luck that I was positioned that way, so it must've been dumb luck.

Quote
"Out of curiosity, how was he dressed? Right or wrong, I often use that as an indicator when someone enters one of my 'zones'."

"The two that were looking hard at me were dressed 'average poor' in my book.  Jeans, flannel shirts.  the one from the front had a hat on.  Appropriate for the time of year.  Not gang wear, not street bum."

Just regular clothes, khaki-colored slacks, nondescript shirt, but hanging out.  Was not wearing a hat.  Just had that plastic shopping bag.  

My takeaway from this and a couple of other incidents is that I must practice not wandering around blithely in what they I guess they call "condition white," but boy, that's hard to do when you're thinking about other stuff.  I've got to remember that I'm in the most-assaulted group of people  --children, women, and the elderly.  

As I said, it was just dumb luck that I spotted him in the first place.

So I guess, from youse guys' remarks, it wasn't just geriatric paranoia... thanks.

Terry

*That's in summer.  In cooler weather I carry either a CW-9 or a 1911 in holsters under a vest or coat.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 10:44:49 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

BryanP

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2014, 12:58:14 PM »
I had my J-frame in my pants pocket, but didn't even think about it until it was all over.  This is probably because in all my encounters in Denver, I couldn't carry because of workplace restrictions, so I had no real situation training to remember that I was armed.    

I have the same situation.  When I do carry it's a J-frame in my front pocket.  My solution for keeping it in mind is that I always have something there.  When I can carry a firearm it's my 649.  When I can't, I have pepper spray in the same pocket.  It makes it easier to train  my own mind that that's where my hand should rest when I get a feeling about someone.
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Tallpine

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2014, 04:09:37 PM »
... that's where my hand should rest when I get a feeling about someone.

Um, okay ........   =|

Were you glad to see them ?   :lol:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

BryanP

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2014, 10:04:13 PM »
Um, okay ........   =|

Were you glad to see them ?   :lol:

Don't put your hand in front of the barrel.  :laugh:
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castle key

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2014, 06:58:36 AM »
A use of force progression relies on several factors that starts with situational awareness. Once the issue is identified, mere physical posture is the first use of force followed by talk. What flows from there obviously varies.

Keep in mind that the pace of change in type of force used can be VERY fast, almost instant but often presence is sufficient.
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Tallpine

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2014, 01:12:26 PM »
If I had been walking over to ask if you needed help and inadvertently scared you, I would have apologized - not just turned and walked away.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

vaskidmark

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Re: Geriatric paranoia or appropriate reactions in an "encounter?"
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2014, 01:20:19 PM »
If I had been walking over to ask if you needed help and inadvertently scared you, I would have apologized - not just turned and walked away.

Additionally, you would likely have announced your purpose.  "Hey!  You need any help?" goes a long way towards making people less edgey because they know where you are from a decent distance.

Now, as for whether or not your inquiry of a need for assistance is genuine or a distraction to close the distance?  Let the hairs on the back of your neck, or your tummy flip-flops, be your guide.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.