Post by: The Rabbi on October 07, 2005, 05:28:17 AM
In the past the gov't issued "bearer bonds" and I owned one in 1979. Now I read those are illegal since '82. What other ways are there of hiding and transporting wealth? The only thing I can come up with are gold coins. Other ideas?
Post by: Standing Wolf on October 07, 2005, 06:07:23 AM
Post by: TarpleyG on October 07, 2005, 06:10:56 AM
Greg
Post by: roo_ster on October 07, 2005, 06:27:33 AM
1. Gold
2. Money Orders (Post Office, etc)
3. Cashier's Checks (Major banks, etc)
4. Traveler's Checks (Amex, etc)
5. Cash
6. Digital Bearer Bonds+
Gems are iffy, as very few can verify colored gems & the diamond market is so controlled. Jewelry is aso suspect, IMHO.
SECURING PORTABLE WEALTH
Here's a toughie. If it is portable & you have it on you, you are one frisking by a gov't official away from losing it all*. Gold would be easy to find, as would large amounts of cash. Your only hope is secreting MO/CC/TC in a place where they would have ot pretty much destroy your clothing to find.
If I wanted to secure such portable wealth, I think I might be inclined to have just enough on hand to get me to where I would have a larger amount. For example, if I lived in NOLA, I might keep most in a relative's safe deposit box in Chicago (or pay the relative to maintain the SDB in THEIR name).
FYI
Bearer Bonds
- "Under the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of
1982 (TEFRA), any interest payments made on *new* issues
of domestic bearer bonds are not deductible as an
ordinary and necessary business expense so none have been
issued since then. At the same time, the Feds
administratively stopped issuing treasury securities in
bearer form. Old issues of government and corporate debt
in bearer form still exist and will exist and trade for
30 or more years after 1982. Additionally, US residents
can legally buy foreign bearer securities." [Duncan
Frissell, 1994-08-10]
* Corruption & opportunity during a disaster, asset siezure for carrying more cash than a narc thnks you ought to carry, etc.
+ Digital Bearer Bonds
http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.13/13.11/WhatisCryptographyGoodFor/
http://www.philodox.com/
http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue2/markets/#dbb
Quote
Digital bearer certificates are another trust instrument which provides strong anonymity. Robert Hettinga has argued that digital bearer certificates may return the method of securities exchange to its relatively anonymous state when a bond could be transferred between parties [60]. Before 1970, bonds were anonymous bearer instruments. Every bond certificate had a number of detachable coupons which could be sent in to the issuer for redemption. This meant that the bond could be exchanged anonymously and out of sight of various government agencies such as the United States Internal Revenue Service [61]. However, after legislation requiring that such transactions be reported and a 1983 SEC ruling, many bond holders do not even receive a certificate. All payments and transactions are conducted (and reported) electronically. They are called book-entry bonds and are easily traceable.
Hettinga argued that the low cost and hierarchical structure of the communications networks on which trading services occurs makes it easy for government to regulate these securities. Regulation will be all but impossible with the even cheaper and distributed nature of Internet style communications:
"So, with a digital bearer bond, you would have in effect a bundle of digital certificates. One would be for the principal and would be good for the repayment of that principal on the date the bond was called or the redemption date, however the bond offering is written. The other certificates would represent coupons, one for each interest period for the life of the bond.
These digital certificates, in combination [with] increasingly geodesic networks enabled by exponentially falling microprocessor prices and strong cryptography, theoretically allow secure, point-to-point trading of any security of any amount with instantaneous clearing and cash settlement [62]."
Hettinga argued that the low cost and hierarchical structure of the communications networks on which trading services occurs makes it easy for government to regulate these securities. Regulation will be all but impossible with the even cheaper and distributed nature of Internet style communications:
"So, with a digital bearer bond, you would have in effect a bundle of digital certificates. One would be for the principal and would be good for the repayment of that principal on the date the bond was called or the redemption date, however the bond offering is written. The other certificates would represent coupons, one for each interest period for the life of the bond.
These digital certificates, in combination [with] increasingly geodesic networks enabled by exponentially falling microprocessor prices and strong cryptography, theoretically allow secure, point-to-point trading of any security of any amount with instantaneous clearing and cash settlement [62]."
Post by: K Frame on October 07, 2005, 06:39:03 AM
Post by: The Rabbi on October 07, 2005, 06:51:43 AM
Quote from: Mike Irwin
I'm surprised that no one has said drugs.
Drugs are illegal, hard to sell, and dont keep well.I dont like diamonds because the salability is an issue.
Post by: K Frame on October 07, 2005, 06:56:39 AM
Let's face it, though.
Hiding substantial assets from a bankruptcy proceeding is illegal, too.
Post by: Justin on October 07, 2005, 07:20:39 AM
Think antique toys, furniture, and glassware.
Archeological relics?
What about The Franklin Mint Commemorative Star Trek plate set?
Post by: K Frame on October 07, 2005, 07:47:58 AM
Also, their value is much more arbitrary and subject to provenance, especially in the case of antiquities, archaelogical artifacts, and fine arts.
In order to recognize the most value out of such an object, it has to be either of extraordinary quality (a Matisse painting, for example), or it has to be a hot item in the current collector's market. For example, about 10 years ago Gustav Stickley (Mission style) furniture was HUGE. Good examples with solid provenance were bringing enormous prices. But no collecting fad lasts forever, and the over inflated market collapsed.
Another problem with these items is that they are far from untraceable and far from anonymous. Unless you get the items on the black market and sell them on the black market (shades of gray legality to EXCEPTIONALLY illegal), artwork and antiquities are generally very well tracked.
A formerly unknown Matisse, or even one that's been out of circulation for years, entering the market is going to generate HUGE scrutiny. Antiquities entering the market place more and more are generating lots of interest from the nations where they originated as they seek to reclaim parts of their cultural heritage that might have been removed illegally.
The final problem with these items is that they do have a relatively limited appeal. Serious collectors, the ones who are willing to invest a lot of money into their collections, often specialize to a very high degree. "No, I'm not interested in your $25,000 cast iron battle ship action bank because I only collect action banks with people and animals on them."
Then you also have the problem of reproductions and fakes. Unless you yourself are an expert (and sometimes even if you are an expert), you can get burned really badly on a high-ticket item that is actually worthless.
I collect a very specific kind of glassware called Eyewinker. It's a late 19th century pressed glass pattern and rare pieces can bring VERY high prices. You don't even want to know what I had to pay for the footed cake server or the oil lamp.
Unfortunately, it's now being reproduced (badly, I might add), but it's been giving collectors fits because so many people are either fraudulently or inadvertently trying to pass new material off as the real thing. This page at least states that it's reproduction, but then again, calls it a collectible (which is bullscheisen): http://pages.tias.com/11374/PictPage/1922237028.html
Unfortunately, as a result of all of the reproductions, the price on real Eyewinker has suffered. That doesn't mean, however, that I'm not willing to pay top dollar for the real thing. It just means that if I ever decided to liquidate my Eyewinker, I'd have a much harder time of it.
Post by: Justin on October 07, 2005, 07:56:29 AM
Post by: charby on October 07, 2005, 08:02:13 AM
Why not an offshore account or something like that?
Charby
Post by: K Frame on October 07, 2005, 09:43:31 AM
Cash in a safety deposit box isn't 100% portable, but it's getting closer.
Hiding the existence of the box might be a bit problematic, but it can be done.
Post by: ...has left the building. on October 07, 2005, 09:45:15 AM
Post by: K Frame on October 07, 2005, 09:47:08 AM
Oi vey...
Post by: 280plus on October 07, 2005, 09:54:23 AM
Cash is King! Think, what are you trying to gain when you sell your valuables? CASH!! Why add all the hassle? Precious jewels are probably the most transportable but who's to say you'll get near what they're worth down the line?
Post by: Vodka7 on October 07, 2005, 10:27:16 AM
Diamonds and gold are a problem because, believe it or not, people will begin to ask questions on where an average Joe such as yourself procured large quantities of them. The government will get involved. The type of people who do not ask questions are A) hard to find, and B) will give you much, much less than these items are worth. For metals, weight is also a serious concern.
If you expect to keep your wealth in things that you can sell later, assume you're going to immediately lose between 1/4th and 1/2 of their value, aside from any inherent depreciation in the item itself. What you want are things you can use to buy other things.
Cash is best. Second to cash would be Cashier's Checks drawn from major banks that aren't going anywhere, Traveler's Checks, and Money Orders. Depending on the amount and the situation, expect for these to be thoroughly verified. If you don't look right and aren't using them right, people will assume they are counterfeit.
Third is cash subsititutes--pre-paid credit cards bought with cash, and retail gift-cards bought with cash. You can use these later for your own purposes or sell them for about 80% of their value. They hold value better in the short term than things like, say, DVD players, but often come with an expiration date.
As for storage, a safety deposit box in a large metropolitan bank (at least an hour's drive from your home) is the way to go. People often procure two safety deposit boxes--one in their name and one under an alias. If you feel the heat when you're going to your real box (the one under an alias), go to the dummy one instead.
There are also a variety of banking solutions available to the online investor that are based in other countries. Fees for these are outrageous, depositing your money is often a hassle, and retrieving it can be a gamble at best, and suicide at worst. Reputation is more important than anything else, and difficult to discover. Properly done, however, total anonymity is insured.
Post by: mfree on October 07, 2005, 11:02:02 AM
Sounds like a skill. Do something that noone else can do and do it well. Do enough of those, and you'll be priceless. And very handy.
Post by: Silver Bullet on October 07, 2005, 11:11:38 AM
Quote
As for storage, a safety deposit box in a large metropolitan bank (at least an hour's drive from your home) is the way to go. People often procure two safety deposit boxes--one in their name and one under an alias. If you feel the heat when you're going to your real box (the one under an alias), go to the dummy one instead.
1. Why at least an hour away ? Are you assuming that someone (maybe the gubmint) will try and confiscate your wealth, and will start looking at nearby banks first ?2. Name and Alias boxes ? Im a little undercaffeinated today, I guess. Both boxes at the same bank ? Both boxes containing cash ?
Post by: K Frame on October 07, 2005, 11:28:11 AM
Here in the DC area a 60 mile circular radius (OK, at rush hour in some areas around here that would shrink to maybe 3 miles!) would include probably well over 2,000 financial institutions, storage facilities, etc.
Post by: SalukiFan on October 07, 2005, 11:32:04 AM
Post by: Silver Bullet on October 07, 2005, 11:45:03 AM
Quote
An hour away in many areas of the country includes an ENORMOUS number of banks that anyone investigating you would have to check.
If it were my checking account, I had to present two or three kinds of ID to the bank before they would issue an account. I would expect the government would be able to cross-check in some data base from my SSAN and locate it that way. I take it thats not the case with a safe deposit box ? Either way, I would think it would behoove one (behoove; does that mean cut off your foot ?) to not use a bank where you have any other accounts, except maybe the Alias account.
Post by: charby on October 07, 2005, 11:50:17 AM
Charby
Post by: grampster on October 07, 2005, 12:49:06 PM
PM me for my PO box # and I'll tell you where you send the $100.00 for my book.
I'll throw in the CD for free. Cash is OK, actually. I warranty that I received it or your money back.
grampster
Post by: El Tejon on October 07, 2005, 12:59:18 PM
Rare books (overlooked by theives mostly) are very portable and valuable anywhere in the world. This dodge, er, option was recommended to me by Professor Spak for Bar-Bri fame (he and Conviser taught at Chicago-Kent where I went).
Had a client a couple of years ago that owed his education to book dodge. Grandfather had rare print of Chinese painting. Rolled it up into cane and snuck into Hong Kong. From HK made it to San Fransico. Sold print in Chinatown and get set for life including endowing education trusts of his grandsons.
Bankruptcy Book Dodge: Many states provide exemptions for "family Bible". Take what money you have, buy rare Bible, declare bankruptcy, fly to Switzerland, sell Bible and buy Swiss temp citizenship, will not be hauled back for tax problems from the HC. (Those that remember Marc Rich, this is what he did, until he bought his pardon from Clinton in '00).
Post by: K Frame on October 07, 2005, 01:02:16 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on October 07, 2005, 01:32:22 PM
This is Tennesee. My wife's clients are lucky they know what a book is. I dont think we have exemption for family bibles here--just a unified dollar amount for household goods. In FL it used to be you could exempt your homestead so people bought million dollar mansions. I have a Torah scroll that is worth probably over $5k. I wonder if I could use that for my family bible. The laws are changing as of the 17th, as you know.
Books and other collectibles are difficult since their value is hard to determine. They are also subjet to things like burning and breakage. Also bulky and hard to move.
The advantage of bearer bonds was that the value was instantly recognizable. Gold coins similarly. Stones much less so.
Post by: Jamisjockey on October 07, 2005, 02:49:18 PM
If I were worried about starting over, maybe in a new place, I'd have some gold (sell it in small quantities to avoid scrutiny), extra guns that could be sold, ammo, and some sort of trade/skill that is useful and I could self-start with. I'd move to a small town where living is cheap.
Does anyone know if gold keeps up with inflation?
What about savings bonds in your childs name? Can the parent cash those?
Post by: roo_ster on October 07, 2005, 04:04:06 PM
Post by: Jamisjockey on October 07, 2005, 04:59:30 PM
Look what I found.
Post by: 280plus on October 08, 2005, 02:55:20 AM
Quote
by Adam Starchild "The significance of gold as a highly valuable substance is almost entirely the product of the fertile mind of man..."
I know that in tyhe early days of European settlement in Australia gold was just laying around on the ground, discarded as useless by the natives as it was too soft to do anything useful with. The natives were MORE THAN WILLING to pick this gold up for the white man and trade it for what THEY found as valuable, IRON. The natives considered the white man crazy for risking his life to get what to them was totally worthless.Sorry about the side track...
Post by: Guest on October 08, 2005, 06:41:21 AM
Functioning Government in place? Cash is king.
Multiple warlord fiefdoms? If you don't have thier currency, you may be out of luck, gold might be better. Gold does have a huge disadvantage in this country however, we have not had it in general circulation for so long most people will be perplexed by it .
Society totally broken down, armed gangs roving the streets? Food, clothing , and weapons .
Antiques, gems, and other esoteric items may have a high value but are not liquid in any realistic sense. The guy who has the food you need may not give a damn about your 12 century chalice. These items may work best if the intention is to get them to a secure area and swap them for cash. -if you have time.
Post by: White Horseradish on October 08, 2005, 10:21:37 AM
I used to work at a jewelry store where some items were stolen. The thief made it to Switzerland and tried to sell some. The salesman recognized the merchandise because it had been loaned to their shop just a few months before, stalled and called the cops. The thief got busted.
Post by: S. Williamson on October 08, 2005, 03:50:18 PM
Plus they're all pretty portable, and useful in a good many situations.
Post by: The Rabbi on October 08, 2005, 03:55:12 PM
Quote from: Dionysusigma
.22 ammo, cash sealed in FoodSaver bags, and cigarettes. If the chips are down and you have these, you have everything. Plus they're all pretty portable, and useful in a good many situations.
How long can cigarettes keep? I dont smoke but I have the idea they get rancid or something.
Plus they're all pretty portable, and useful in a good many situations.Post by: Antibubba on October 08, 2005, 11:37:12 PM
Post by: K Frame on October 09, 2005, 05:51:40 AM
Post by: The Rabbi on October 09, 2005, 06:45:33 AM
Quote from: Antibubba
Rabbi, as it turns out, you're in luck. As it turns out, I am the heir to a large fortune in my home country of Nigeria...
Really? Maybe you could transfer the money into my bank account and just pay me a percentage?
Post by: Guest on October 09, 2005, 07:33:27 AM
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: Dionysusigma
.22 ammo, cash sealed in FoodSaver bags, and cigarettes. If the chips are down and you have these, you have everything. Plus they're all pretty portable, and useful in a good many situations.
How long can cigarettes keep? I dont smoke but I have the idea they get rancid or something. Plus they're all pretty portable, and useful in a good many situations.Post by: XLMiguel on October 09, 2005, 07:14:10 PM
Post by: The Rabbi on October 10, 2005, 04:44:45 AM
Quote from: Mike in VA
Hmmmm. It seems that the key attributes beyond portability are liquidity (is it of recognized value and easy convertibility) and accessibility (can you get to it easily). In order to satisfy those requirements across a variety of 'social situations' it seems a diversified portfolio is in order, e.g. a mix of currency, gold, and barterable commodities that can be easily and conveniently secured. I have yet to figure what the ideal mix is . . .
the answer is lots of it, whatever "it" is.There is a story about a wealthy German Jew in the 1930s who saw what was coming. He began selling off his real estate and business and buying gems. After he got his family out it was time for him to go. He took his gems and hid them in raw potatoes, dressed himself like a beggar, and hopped a train for Switzerland. The potatoes started to rot (nothing smells worse). He was accosted by two SS men at the border and when they opened his bag and smelled the rotting potatoes they rushed him through.
Post by: roo_ster on October 10, 2005, 08:07:43 AM
I also like stories where Nazis are get the sh!t end of the stick.
Post by: K Frame on October 10, 2005, 09:43:29 AM
Post by: BrokenPaw on October 10, 2005, 09:53:04 AM
Quote
Given the Nigerian scams and all that, I'm really surprised that no one has tried to pull one involving Nazi gold...
Well, gee, thanks, Mike. There went my plans to get rich... -BP,
Post by: HForrest on October 10, 2005, 02:18:10 PM
Post by: Silver Bullet on October 10, 2005, 02:24:27 PM
Tupperware should work well, even zip-locks made for food storage.
Post by: Guest on October 13, 2005, 10:27:37 AM
SHTF scenario -The downside- You - "I want to buy that (insert desired object or sevice), I have this gold coin". Him_ "how do I know it's gold?" "how do I know it's pure?" and most important-"how do I know what it's value is? The answer is , of course, he will not know , so, in order to cover his ass while dealing with an unknown quanity, he will offer far less than what your expected valuation is. And this is going to be worse in this country than say, in India or some other place people are used to trading in gold. You may very well find yourself trading a Krugerand for a pack of cigarettes. Gold has no intrinsic value, except as a metalugical component. Same is true of gems.
A truly high value, extremely lightweight , totally transferable liquid item ?-- maybe knowledge. It can never be taken from you and is totally invisable. What is the value of a Doctor, mechanic, carpenter or gunsmith when the SHTF?
Commodity's are a definite, but they are bulky. Cigarettes, coffee, booze, all will retain value just fine. But how do you carry? The downside here is the value is enhanced in the stricken area, in the calm area it will decline.
So I guess the question is really, what do you want from the "wealth stash". Is it a trading item that continues to have value in the disaster, or is it a fund to be converted back into currency when you get to civilization?
Post by: The Rabbi on October 14, 2005, 08:13:36 AM
By definition no trading partners make a trade without it benefitting both parties. So if someone wanted a pack of cigarettes bad enough and all he had that the other party wanted was gold, then they would make the trade. If you had a bag of diamonds but no water you would be happily trading the diamonds for water after a while.
Many gold coins made expressly for bullion come with the weight and fineness stamped on them. Determining value is relatively easy.
What I am concerned with is two scenarios:
-SHTF, but only in local terms, e.g. Katrina. A person then would migrate from the affected area to the unaffected area. Gold is valuable here because it is relatively impervious to things like fire, unlike cash.
-Hiding wealth in an untraceable form. Make up your scenario as you see fit.