Author Topic: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.  (Read 7344 times)

Firethorn

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2017, 09:55:23 PM »
From the video, that cop wasn't doing command voice - he was doing nervous nellie about to poop his pants voice. I would have had my hands on the wheel and may not have even followed his commands for ID until he calmed down, or the other cop walked up.

My thinking is that, I'm not reaching for anything until the cop stops calling 'don't reach for it'.


Scout26

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2017, 11:20:46 PM »
Couple of quick points.

The Facebook Live video his girlfriend made was nothing but a bunch of lies. 


He was driving on a suspended license (and had like 52 prior moving violations), he was probably going to jail and he knew it.  (I'm not a mind reader, but that had to going through his head)

He was high and wasn't following directions. 

This is why I said, sit there with you hands on the wheel or on the ceiling.  The do what the officer tells you to do.  S-L-O-W-L-Y.   And tell him what you are going to do before you do it.   "I'm going to reach into my right rear pocket to get my Driver's License.  I'm going to open my glove compartment to get my insurance card."

No surprises.
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Put our backs to the north wind.
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Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

KD5NRH

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2017, 04:49:36 AM »
Ok, driving beaters, it wasn't all that uncommon for me to either be pulled over for a light that wasn't working quite right (last car I had, first night I had it I pulled all the bulbs and reseated them in the sockets, then properly seated the sockets in the housings because that's what got me stopped more than anything except speeding in my younger days) or have one pull up while I was working on something.

Procedure was, keep DL and CHL back to back in the wallet with insurance between them.  If stopped, turn on interior light, get wallet out and slide the stack out with both hands above the dash, (at night, just keep them in the area lit up by his takedowns) and hold it CHL up in left hand on the wheel, turn key off with right hand and put right hand on wheel.  He will look at your hands as he walks up.

If out of the car, most didn't bother to ask for ID, but one did.  I told him I had my DL and CHL in my right inside pocket, and my revolver in the left inside pocket.  He just asked me to hold the vest open with my right hand while I got the wallet out with my left.

One time when stopped, I had a PT-99 on my right hip and wallet in right back pocket.  Two DPS troopers in the middle of nowhere, appeared to be FTO and trainee.  Obviously senior officer asked me to step out and around to the far side of the car.  (Actually fairly normal for some troopers to get you where they aren't standing in the road.)  He then had me face the car, put his hand on the gun through my shirt, (tuckable Crossbreed) and asked me if I could reach my wallet like that.  I could, and all went well from there.  I think he was bladed toward me with his left hand on my gun and his right on his own, plus having the other officer about 10 feet away to my left, so a fairly effective way to handle the situation without the hassle of a disarm.

Only been disarmed twice; the first just left the gun in my driver seat (had been in the center console due to a long drive) and asked that I not open the door until he drove off. (I had pulled into the parking lot of a closed business when he lit me up, so no issues with leaving me wandering around on the roadside.)
The second was after my violent drunk ex BIL called them on me for shoving him out of the way to get out the door.  After everybody was separate and checked, they got the details, gave him a lecture on the concept of unlawful detention and the reasonableness of far-from-deadly force to stop it, (He even admitted putting hands on me first, to keep me from leaving until he was done berating me for "not being man enough to fight him."  Yeah, real genius considering I also had pepper spray and a moderately nasty crenellated-bezel tac light on me at the time.) and my neighbor and longtime friend of my mom's side of the family was actually the one to casually hand my .357 back to me with the cylinder open and the loose rounds in a baggie. 
I palmed the Comp I speedloader from the outside pocket where I kept it, (actually did think it a bit odd they pulled that out, looked at it and put it back during the initial patdown) popped it on hard enough to release the rounds just the way I'd practiced hundreds of times, and closed the cylinder as I reholstered in the Coronado vest I was wearing, then started refilling the speedloader from the baggie.  We kept talking about the idiot BIL, and as I went to do the push-and-turn to lock the rounds into the speedloader, he glanced down, stopped mid sentence, and switched to "did I really just completely miss you loading your f***ing gun right in front of me while we're still standing around with half the local PD finishing up?"  I said "well, you didn't tell me not to when you handed me the gun and ammo, so I figured you weren't too worried about me being armed right now."  To this day I'm still not sure if the head shake was for me loading up right then or himself for not noticing until what would have been way too late if I'd had hostile intent.

dogmush

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2017, 05:20:45 AM »
I love the cultural conditioning that CCW's have.

Statistically, Cops shoot folks they've stopped more then folks that they've stopped shoot cops.  So how come I have to be disarmed for their safety?*  Seems like the odds of both people going home alive (the goal, I'm told) are better if I take their firearm for the length of the encounter.  I'll leave it empty in the backseat of their cruiser.



*Rhetorical question.  I know why.  I just disagree with the idea that any random cop gets to pull me out and disarm me, (and fingerfuck my firearm) absent any articulateable threat.  "Officer Safety" this and that be damned.  You know what will keep everyone safe?  All guns stay in holsters and no one fingerfucks a weapon.  That goes for resting your firing hand on the butt and playing with the retention hood.  That's called "brandishing".

Scout26

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2017, 07:12:36 PM »
I love the cultural conditioning that CCW's have.

Statistically, Cops shoot folks they've stopped more then folks that they've stopped shoot cops.  So how come I have to be disarmed for their safety?*  Seems like the odds of both people going home alive (the goal, I'm told) are better if I take their firearm for the length of the encounter.  I'll leave it empty in the backseat of their cruiser.



*Rhetorical question.  I know why.  I just disagree with the idea that any random cop gets to pull me out and disarm me, (and fingerfuck my firearm) absent any articulateable threat.  "Officer Safety" this and that be damned.  You know what will keep everyone safe?  All guns stay in holsters and no one fingerfucks a weapon.  That goes for resting your firing hand on the butt and playing with the retention hood.  That's called "brandishing".

I totally agree.  There should be no reason to be disarmed (unless you somehow impaired, but you shouldn't be armed to begin with.)
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Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2017, 10:51:29 PM »
Has anyone else seen this idiotic commentary about the NRA being eerily, noticeably, racistly silent about Castile? ;/ I don't know what the NRA has said about similar situations, or if they really owe anyone an explanation for why one of their constituents (a CCW permit-holder) was shot by an agent of government, while (according to the NRA's detractors) peacefully exercising his 2nd amendment right. You'd think the gun control lobby would be on the spot for that one.

Anyway, I do know that when I go to https://www.nratv.com/, and search for "Philando Castile," four videos come up. Not much, but not silence. When I plug "nra responds to philando castile" into Bing.com, the second result is an unofficial commentary from an NRA webcast host.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jun/20/philando-castile-shooting-nra-response-colion-noir

Noir's comments were also reprinted (in whole or in part) by Reason.com, BearingArms.com, and many other sites.


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KD5NRH

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2017, 12:42:29 AM »
My thinking is that, I'm not reaching for anything until the cop stops calling 'don't reach for it'.

Yeah, pretty much.  Until the armed guy finishes his panic attack, just keep your hands in the least threatening place possible.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2017, 07:58:43 PM »
I haven't followed this case very much, but there are two things that help me understand the jury's decision.

1. The officer thought (for whatever reason) that he might be a particular suspect he was seeking.

2. Castile said he had a firearm, and then kept reaching toward his waist, while being told not to.

Have either of those been seriously called into question?

If not, while the cop seems to have screwed up, I would have to agree it wasn't criminal.

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zxcvbob

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2017, 10:59:07 PM »
I haven't followed this case very much, but there are two things that help me understand the jury's decision.

1. The officer thought (for whatever reason) that he might be a particular suspect he was seeking.

2. Castile said he had a firearm, and then kept reaching toward his waist, while being told not to.

Have either of those been seriously called into question?

If not, while the cop seems to have screwed up, I would have to agree it wasn't criminal.



He thought Castile might be a suspect because he had a "wide nose".  Imagine that, a black guy with a wide nose.   ;/ 
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LadySmith

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2017, 06:41:16 AM »
What chance does a permit holder have when cops are even quick to shoot one of their own?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/white-st-louis-police-officer-shoots-off-duty-black-officer/

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2017, 07:08:18 PM »
i can't view the video due to data restrictions - but can you tell me if the cop told him to retrieve DL but at the same time told him not to reach for it.
It may be that agency needs to train the cops to say "keep your hands on the steering wheel" , i have seen cops give contradictory commands before, I think philando wasn't really trained all that well.
unfortunately it is up to the ccw to be better trained than the police.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2017, 08:29:13 PM »
i can't view the video due to data restrictions - but can you tell me if the cop told him to retrieve DL but at the same time told him not to reach for it.
It may be that agency needs to train the cops to say "keep your hands on the steering wheel" , i have seen cops give contradictory commands before, I think philando wasn't really trained all that well.
unfortunately it is up to the ccw to be better trained than the police.

Kinda like when Erik Scott was told to drop the weapon when it was in his waistband and/or holster.  He had to reach for it to comply, and I suspect they would have shot him if he hadn't reached for it, for "failure to comply".  They intended to kill him no matter what.  Of course the shooting was justified, because LVMPD has *never* had an unjustified police shooting.  (I am disappointed that Erik's dad didn't assassinate anybody when it was over; he seemed to be the kind of guy with the means and connections to do that)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 08:44:41 PM by zxcvbob »
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2017, 08:38:25 PM »
Kinda like when Erik Scott was told to drop the weapon when it was in his waistband and/or holster.  He had to reach for it to comply, and I suspect they would have shot him if he hadn't reached for it, for "failure to comply".  They intended to kill him no matter what.  Of course the shooting was justified, because LVMPD has *never* had an unjustified police shooting.  (I am disappointed that Erik's dad didn't assassinate anybody when it was over; he seemed to be the kind of guy with the means and connections to do that)

LVMPD managed to get one of my cousins  a couple of decades ago. He was wearing shorts and carrying a basketball at the time the officer emptied his 9mm into his back.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2017, 08:43:05 PM »
LVMPD managed to get one of my cousins  a couple of decades ago. He was wearing shorts and carrying a basketball at the time the officer emptied his 9mm into his back.


I'm sorry.   :'(
They will continue to do that until people start shooting them.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2017, 09:25:25 PM »
What chance does a permit holder have when cops are even quick to shoot one of their own?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/white-st-louis-police-officer-shoots-off-duty-black-officer/


You haven't heard about that one? It's toward the back of the book where they list all the offenses. I don't recall the alpha-numerical code, but it's called "PWB" (Policing While Black).
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zxcvbob

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2017, 09:42:22 PM »
What will be interesting is when a black man (legally carrying a gun) shoots a cop at a routine traffic stop because he feared for his life.  There's plenty of anecdotal evidence that that fear is reasonable.
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White Horseradish

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2017, 01:51:53 PM »

Were I on the jury, the tough call for me regarding "reasonable doubt" would be not knowing what was going on inside the vehicle. Another reason I'd like to see universal body cameras. The question for me would be what it looked like the driver was doing with his hands. I only have the officer's statement in the video to go on, and that might raise reasonable doubt for me, barring any other evidence. I obviously don't know what all was presented in court.

I think it's interesting that the other cop, who was actually on the "gun side" of the driver looks completely relaxed.


He was driving on a suspended license (and had like 52 prior moving violations), he was probably going to jail and he knew it.  (I'm not a mind reader, but that had to going through his head)
Nope. His license was valid. He had a couple of prior tickets for driving on a suspended license.

His 52 violations were muffler, seatbelt, expired insurance, parking. They were all paid tickets, too.  A bunch of them are charges from the same time being busted with a suspended license. He was not going to jail.

The list of violations is in this article: http://heavy.com/news/2016/07/philando-castile-criminal-record-arrest-record-police-racial-profiling-criminal-history-rap-sheet-felon-crime-falcon-heights-minnesota-police-shooting-facebook-live-video-watch-lavish-reynolds-diamond/

He was high and wasn't following directions. 
In court, the experts refused to confirm that. The directions he got were impossible to follow in the amount of time he was allowed.

This is why I said, sit there with you hands on the wheel or on the ceiling.  The do what the officer tells you to do.  S-L-O-W-L-Y.   And tell him what you are going to do before you do it.   "I'm going to reach into my right rear pocket to get my Driver's License.  I'm going to open my glove compartment to get my insurance card."

No surprises.
It is a sad fact that we have to treat cops like dangerous PTSD-ridden tweakers.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2017, 03:42:48 PM »
IMO, in a broad sense, the whole thing of "bad shoots" and questionable shoots, dogs getting shot is a nationwide departmental culture of officer safety becoming priority #1 (weepy spouse: I just want him/her to come home at the end of every shift! etc.) which has led to over-training, or perhaps over-emphasis on some parts of training. All of this in response to the nearly uninterrupted rise in violent crime into the 1990's, before it's precipitous drop.

It was never codified outright, but it used to be understood that there was an element of assumed risk involved in being a police officer. A trade-off made in the name of a freer more peaceful society. (Fully admitting that if you were black, or a "hippie" etc. and rampant undocumented use of "hickory shampoo" happened all the time in the "good old days"...)

It was in this period that LEA's really doubled-down on the whole "YOU HAVE .05 SECONDS TO SAVE YOUR LIFE!" aspects of training. Everything got made into a Tueller drill so to speak. FATS video rubber wall shoot rooms, all that stuff. Some of it's good stuff, at least from a LEO standpoint, of suspect/perpetrator control, where you have them stand, which way they face, the verbal judo, the taser, all of it predicated on preventing the need for lethal force.

But overall, I think it's created an unintentional but unavoidable statistical outcome of how the priorities and training for police have changed. Doesn't do any good for those shot unjustly, but I suspect the backlash from it all will cause training to change, and the number of shootings will drop over the course of a decade or so.

Add to that, looking "soft on crime" has been political suicide for most elected officials, whether they're from the Left or the Right, and at least in the pre-BLM era, only a few outliers who were politically marginalized for other reasons, even within their own party (Maxine Waters types...) could reliably take that stance. So you've got a vacuum where most LEA's in combination with lawyers define their overall ratio of "officer safety" vs. "keeping the peace".
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2017, 04:02:41 PM »
Add to that, looking "soft on crime" has been political suicide for most elected officials, whether they're from the Left or the Right, and at least in the pre-BLM era, only a few outliers who were politically marginalized for other reasons, even within their own party (Maxine Waters types...) could reliably take that stance. So you've got a vacuum where most LEA's in combination with lawyers define their overall ratio of "officer safety" vs. "keeping the peace".


I listened to a relevant podcast a couple of days ago:

https://ricochet.com/podcast/criminal-justice-reform-reducing-recidivism-remarks-senate-committee-judiciary-chairman-chuck-grassley-r-ia/

They talk about the older generation of GOP congressmen being reared on a "tough on crime" stance, during the 70s and 80s, while younger guys like Cruz and Paul are more open to reform. Makes sense, given the crime rates then, vs now. Apparently, Sessions is not so open to change.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2017, 04:22:20 PM »

I listened to a relevant podcast a couple of days ago:

https://ricochet.com/podcast/criminal-justice-reform-reducing-recidivism-remarks-senate-committee-judiciary-chairman-chuck-grassley-r-ia/

They talk about the older generation of GOP congressmen being reared on a "tough on crime" stance, during the 70s and 80s, while younger guys like Cruz and Paul are more open to reform. Makes sense, given the crime rates then, vs now. Apparently, Sessions is not so open to change.

I've been harping on it for awhile now, but from both a social justice standpoint, and for making political points in the longer term Right vs. Left game of tit-for-tat... the majority of Republican controlled red-state legislatures could really put some political and fiscal hurt on their "big blue cities".

Not even getting at the impact of larger violent crimes, or the converse of LEO bad-shoots, GOP legislatures could pass a whole bunch of decriminalization measures aimed at the poor inner city. Many of these places, despite being controlled by the Left for decades, has an almost pathological process of "farming" their urban poor as a revenue source. A source at least in part that's grown up to replace the lost tax revenue as businesses and the productive classes have fled their cities over their mismanagement.

I see it as win-win-win. Except for big-city Democrat politicians that is.

1. The GOP hamstrings the Lefty nuggets of "resistance" in the big blue cities.

2. The police supposedly are supposed to want to be going after "real crime", thieves, rapists, murderers etc. and not petty-ante enforcement of tickets and warrants for non-violent offenses.*

3. The inner city gets much of the police boot off their neck, and over time, assuming someone actually plays the "long game" and has some patience, they might cooperate more with the police on solving the "real crime" in their areas.

*Big caveat: The police absolutely LOVES minor enforcement as a way to generate traffic stops while they fish for "real crime".

I can't remember the exact number, but during the height of the Michael Brown riots in Ferguson, some article somewhere pointed out that way over half, way way over, of the population of Ferguson had outstanding warrants, was on some kind of probation/supervision, or had a tangled knot of municipal citations and fines and court appearances to deal with.

And IMO, THAT is why they turned out to riot. And even with the much higher crime rates in a community like that, the majority of them can't possibly be "real criminals". Mike Brown was just the flashpoint for that angst.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2017, 07:58:36 PM »
One rather obvious question was suggested, but never voiced, during that pod-cast. The narrative was that crime rates were high, resulting in a "tough" stance that led to crowded prisons. Now that crime rates have decreased, we should consider reforms that reduce the prison population.

The obvious question is, what if the crime rate is down precisely because the prisons are crowded, and moving away from "tough" leads to a higher crime rate?

Not that I think that's the reason - it just seems like a question the reform side would not want to leave unanswered.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2017, 11:37:08 AM »
we should consider reforms that reduce the prison population.

Hard to beg for more money to "improve" prisons that are well under capacity.

White Horseradish

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2017, 05:33:33 PM »
One rather obvious question was suggested, but never voiced, during that pod-cast. The narrative was that crime rates were high, resulting in a "tough" stance that led to crowded prisons. Now that crime rates have decreased, we should consider reforms that reduce the prison population.

The obvious question is, what if the crime rate is down precisely because the prisons are crowded, and moving away from "tough" leads to a higher crime rate?

Not that I think that's the reason - it just seems like a question the reform side would not want to leave unanswered.

The easy answer to that is to see what crimes they are in prison for.

We lock up a lot of potheads whose only real crime is wasting space on some couch.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2017, 07:09:27 PM »
The easy answer to that is to see what crimes they are in prison for.

We lock up a lot of potheads whose only real crime is wasting space on some couch.


From a "tough on crime" drug warrior viewpoint, that just proves them right. That is, if we hadn't locked up the potheads, they'd have graduated to real crimes by now.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Permit, shmermit... You're dead anyway.
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2017, 10:27:11 PM »

*Big caveat: The police absolutely LOVES minor enforcement as a way to generate traffic stops while they fish for "real crime".


And the bean counters love things like red light cameras, that automate "enforcement" [i.e. robbery].
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