Author Topic: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code  (Read 5207 times)

AZRedhawk44

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FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« on: October 17, 2013, 11:27:10 PM »
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obamacare-website-violates-licensing-agreement-copyrighted-software_763666.html

They took open source code, removed the terms of use from the code, and implemented it in their cruddy Obamacare enrollment software.

The authors are going to sue.

I hope they are able to somehow block utilization of the code by FedGuv, just for grins and giggles.  Make them rewrite that part of the site and take it offline until re-written.  Because it'd take at least a decade for them to come up with an actually useful and original idea.
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lupinus

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2013, 05:33:27 AM »
hahaha

That website is a major clusterfluff. Slow, laggy, takes forever to do ANYTHING. I went through the whole thing, except for actually enrolling in a plan and opted to make them ping the NSA database instead of giving them my SS and bank/finance info. It's the absolute worst website I've been to in years. It had me begging for a long, annoying, pointless flash intro website.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

GigaBuist

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2013, 09:19:01 PM »
The authors are going to sue.

Where do you get that from?  I didn't really see any talk about it in the article.

GPL/BSD violations are pretty common. Only takes one idiot on a team to introduce code like that without understanding what they're doing.  Not that there's any huge impact.  Just put a footnote at the bottom of the pages that use it giving proper attribution and they're compliant with the BSD license.

RevDisk

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2013, 10:32:34 AM »


Uhm, no. They just have to put the copyright back on, and that's it. You can't steal something that is free, only infringe on the copyright.
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Tallpine

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2013, 11:24:56 AM »
Even with stolen/borrowed source code, they couldn't make it work right  ;/
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Levant

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2013, 12:34:41 AM »
I'm in the middle of negotiations with the vendor for the Obama Care website to do some work for us.   It's probably not going to happen.  I'm suddenly not very confident in their ability to succeed.
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Levant

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2013, 12:37:34 AM »

Uhm, no. They just have to put the copyright back on, and that's it. You can't steal something that is free, only infringe on the copyright.

Infringing the copyright is stealing.  It is a violation of the DMCA.  If you don't think using someone's intellectual property is theft, then what is?  If I steal a bottle of Scotch from the liquor store and get caught, if I give them money am I no longer a shoplifter?  If I rob a bank and get caught and they take the money back, did I no longer rob the bank?

This was theft. 
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RevDisk

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2013, 05:57:25 AM »
Infringing the copyright is stealing.  It is a violation of the DMCA.  If you don't think using someone's intellectual property is theft, then what is?  If I steal a bottle of Scotch from the liquor store and get caught, if I give them money am I no longer a shoplifter?  If I rob a bank and get caught and they take the money back, did I no longer rob the bank?

This was theft.  

No, it was copyright infringement. See Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207 (1985).

And re the other post, yes, you can just add the credits, usually. Only places that didn't comply with initial contact or refuse to comply tend to get sued. Technically, you could sue without any contact or whatnot, but it's unlikely a court will award much if anything in light of no attempt of the copyright holder to ask the infringing party to comply with the GPL terms. Each place handles it individually, but apparently "over a hundred" times likely an email or call worked. "Dude, we can tell you're using X. Show credit. - Whoops, my bad, it's on the web site and next firmware will show the GPL credits in the About box. - kthxbai"



« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 06:01:31 AM by RevDisk »
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Levant

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2013, 12:02:58 PM »
The Supreme Court also ruled that the fines for Obama Care are a tax even though Congress is specifically on record stating it is not a tax.  I don't care what the Supreme Court says; we know right from wrong.  When you take something that is not yours it is theft.  When you use software for which  you do not have a license you take something from the owner of that software - whether you take reputation and good will by having stripped their name from the credits or you steal their money by not paying them for it. 

Too many people depend on the law and the courts to tell them right from wrong.  I need neither.
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zahc

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2013, 02:24:21 PM »
Quote
When you use software for which  you do not have a license you take something from the owner of that software

This is an unsubstantiated assertion. Is your saying it supposed to make it true? Also, loaded language ("owner of that software") which begs the question.
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Levant

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2013, 03:32:21 PM »
How is that an unsubstantiated assertion?  Water is wet.... Unsubstantiated assertion.

Your statement makes no sense at all.  Are you trying to say that you can take someone's intellectual property and use it and that it doesn't take anything from them? 

If I take a Stephen King novel and publish it as my own work and sell to unsuspecting readers saying it was my own work, have I taken nothing from Stephen King?  No good will?  no sales revenue?  Nothing at all?
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zahc

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2013, 04:15:33 PM »
Quote
Are you trying to say that you can take someone's intellectual property and use it and that it doesn't take anything from them?  

Yes, in the context of the scenario under discussion, that is, "taking" software in violation of the license that the author has supposedly released it under. That is what I was saying, viz, that "the use of software in violation of its license agreement does not harm the author". Also, I don't think that intellectual property is comparable to actual property.

Quote
If I take a Stephen King novel and publish it as my own work and sell to unsuspecting readers saying it was my own work

Then that would be fraud. Nice strawman; I will not address your further questions about your invented strawman Steven King scenario. We were discussing your assertion:

Quote
When you use software for which  you do not have a license you take something from the owner of that software

I do not agree with that statement. If you would like to justify it, I would be interested to hear your reasoning, but not optimistic, since you will probably just insist you are right, because ("water is wet"). Thus I am forced to assume your real reasoning goes something like "I make more money due to copyright law, therefore copyright violation is immoral".

« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 04:20:29 PM by zahc »
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Levant

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2013, 04:35:45 PM »
We clearly have differing sets of ethics. 

The work and effort it takes to create a software package such as DataTables is as legitimate as the work it takes to create a car.  Software is the product of work just as is building a car or even buying a car. 
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Fitz

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Re:
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2013, 10:34:56 PM »
You cannot compare the theft of real money, stealing code and selling a product, to a stripped copyright and GPL notice from already free software. There's no material, monetary harm


If you think they're the same, you're in a weird reality
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RevDisk

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2013, 04:24:17 AM »
We clearly have differing sets of ethics. 

The work and effort it takes to create a software package such as DataTables is as legitimate as the work it takes to create a car.  Software is the product of work just as is building a car or even buying a car. 

Yea...  Dude, it is GPL code. It is free code. I know, because I just used it in a site I built for US Cellular.

Physical stuff != proprietary intellectual property != GPL IP
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Levant

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2013, 09:28:21 AM »
Using GPL code does not make you an expert in writing GPL code or in the value of the work that goes into GPL code.  YOu continue to assume expertise by association.  It takes more than that.

I have written some open source software.  I own the code.  I'm willing to share it.  The only thing I ask is that I get the credit by leaving my name in the code and in the About box.  Having my name in those places has real monetary value because people see my work and associate my name with the quality of the work and means I have cache that I can take to a consulting proposal or a job interview.  When you use my code without crediting me, I do not get that cache.  That has real financial implications.

Like I said.  You and I have differing ethics.  I'm not going to get into yet another long discussion with you.  I'm cancelling my subscription to this thread so have at it.  Defend the Government's theft of intellectual property to your heart's content.
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eyebrows

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2013, 11:24:23 AM »
About 10 years ago I released a online high score backend(HSHOF) for the Acknex 3d engine under GPL. Included serverside MySQL, PHP, also included .dll wrapper for the engine interface and all the relevant c-script.
It was a lot of work, couple years later I released another version(ODI) also under GPL.
I never had a problem I was aware of regarding the usage of that code and the licensing requirement(credit).
Always stoked my ego bigtime to see my name in the credits of a game I didn't make.
Had I found somebody not abiding by the requirements I would have felt like my work was stolen.

So, IMO, using code and not abiding by the licensing agreement is stealing as you are using the fruits of someone else labor and by not giving credit you a effectively telling the "lay person" that you are author of what ever function your using said licensed code for.
Gov should remedy this situation immediately and make an apology, or cease and desist usage of the code.(would satisfy me if I were author)
I'm only slightly worried the gov is using open source software for such an application filled with sensitive information. I mean, WOW, really?

RevDisk

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2013, 11:58:29 AM »
Using GPL code does not make you an expert in writing GPL code or in the value of the work that goes into GPL code.  YOu continue to assume expertise by association.  It takes more than that.

I specifically license most of my code under Apache License 2.0, rather than GPL. Apache 2 allows any extra code to be of a different license than the original code. This is supposed to be compatible with GPLv3 for dual licensing, but not v1 or v2. I'm not a fan of v3, because it was written largely to combat tivoization and I've worked on hardware projects involving FOSS code that make v3 problematic. Which is why things like Toybox have to exist, because SFC can be a bunch of fourth point of contacts.

Question, Levant. An actual serious one. Why do you always assume someone does not have specific experience, instead of asking?



I have written some open source software.  I own the code.  I'm willing to share it.  The only thing I ask is that I get the credit by leaving my name in the code and in the About box.  Having my name in those places has real monetary value because people see my work and associate my name with the quality of the work and means I have cache that I can take to a consulting proposal or a job interview.  When you use my code without crediting me, I do not get that cache.  That has real financial implications.

Like I said.  You and I have differing ethics.  I'm not going to get into yet another long discussion with you.  I'm cancelling my subscription to this thread so have at it.  Defend the Government's theft of intellectual property to your heart's content.

The first above paragraph makes a lot of sense. The second, not so much. You're apparently upset at "Government's theft of intellectual property" (which is actually a government's vendor's noncompliance of licensing requirements). Fair enough, one should be. Your concerns would be entirely solved via what everyone else said. They just need to put the licensing and copyright information back on to be compliant.

I'm not sure why you get so bent out of shape, considering you tend to be the party that makes uninformed assumptions about other people. When anyone more or less politely calls you on it, you get more bent out of shape that folks don't take your word.  Maybe I'm alone here, but it seems like you are getting upset that anyone doesn't automatically agree with you, because it is you saying so rather than the strength of your arguments. You could always just stand on "It's my subjective opinion", and you'd win the argument. Because any subjective opinion is right, to the holder of the opinion.

You could say "I think of IP infringement as legally constituting theft, even though legally no one else currently should. I would like to redefine theft to legally include copyright infringement and other intellectual property infringement, with X as the sanctions." This would be an understandable position. Folks may or may not agree, but it's obviously valid. Your beliefs are your beliefs. Problem is when you try to insist your opinion is the objective reality, apparently at times when it is not.
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Fitz

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2013, 12:10:56 PM »


Like I said.  You and I have differing ethics.  I'm not going to get into yet another long discussion with you.  I'm cancelling my subscription to this thread so have at it.  Defend the Government's theft of intellectual property to your heart's content.

"I don't like what you're saying, so I'll throw a tantrum and insinuate something that you didn't even actually SAY!"
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Balog

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2013, 02:15:11 PM »
There is a thread subscription option? Interesting, I'll have to look into that.
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Tallpine

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2013, 02:30:09 PM »
There is a thread subscription option? Interesting, I'll have to look into that.

A thread ignore option might be more valuable  :lol:
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CNYCacher

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2013, 03:32:46 PM »
Son of a bitch.

I agree with Levant.

His Steven King analogy is completely relevant.  Whether you are misappropriating money or prestige from the author makes no difference.

On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2013, 06:20:47 PM »
As do I, CNYCacher. 

These are interesting times.
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RevDisk

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Re: FedGuv/HHS steals GPL code
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2013, 06:44:24 PM »

Except Steven King has not released any GPL or Creative Commons works, AFAIK.

Perhaps I'm wrong and we have a cabel of IP anarchists here, but there seems to be a main split in terms of people that see no difference between proprietary and GPL, and folks that do see a difference. No one forces another person to GPL/Apache/PD/BSD/whatever their code. It's free and open source for a reason, because the owner so desired.

That doesn't mean one can or should be able to violate the license on a whim. There can and should be sanctions, if the party responsible refuses to maintain compliance.
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