Author Topic: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!  (Read 7348 times)

roo_ster

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Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« on: March 27, 2008, 07:12:49 AM »



Quick as a link, you're in the clink!

I hate it when I click on links and don't find what I want. Plenty of times I click on the wrong link. Or a dead link. Or I'll get those infuriating popups which sometimes hang my machine.

But imagine if they made clicking on the wrong link a crime!

Well, they have, or at least, the FBI has taken it upon itself to arrest people in pre-dawn raids for what they say is the crime of clicking the wrong link:

    The FBI has recently adopted a novel investigative technique: posting hyperlinks that purport to be illegal videos of minors having sex, and then raiding the homes of anyone willing to click on them.

    Undercover FBI agents used this hyperlink-enticement technique, which directed Internet users to a clandestine government server, to stage armed raids of homes in Pennsylvania, New York, and Nevada last year. The supposed video files actually were gibberish and contained no illegal images.

    A CNET News.com review of legal documents shows that courts have approved of this technique, even though it raises questions about entrapment, the problems of identifying who's using an open wireless connection--and whether anyone who clicks on a FBI link that contains no child pornography should be automatically subject to a dawn raid by federal police.


They could post these links, or send them out (or they could be resent to everyone on someone's mailing list), and innocent or clueless idiots might click on them without any idea that their IP numbers were being sent straight into an FBI computer, and that a search warrant would be issued.

The scariest part is that the FBI does not even care where the link-clickers got the links. Anyone might have emailed or posted them:

    When anyone visited the upload.sytes.net site, the FBI recorded the Internet Protocol address of the remote computer. There's no evidence the referring site was recorded as well, meaning the FBI couldn't tell if the visitor found the links through Ranchi or another source such as an e-mail message.

    With the logs revealing those allegedly incriminating IP addresses in hand, the FBI sent administrative subpoenas to the relevant Internet service provider to learn the identity of the person whose name was on the account--and then obtained search warrants for dawn raids.


And of course, once they've forced their way into your home, anything you've got becomes fair game:

    The search warrants authorized FBI agents to seize and remove any "computer-related" equipment, utility bills, telephone bills, any "addressed correspondence" sent through the U.S. mail, video gear, camera equipment, checkbooks, bank statements, and credit card statements.

Can this be legal? Would any American court dare actually say that a mere click on a link justifies such a raid on someone's home? Oh yes they would! Read and weep:

    While it might seem that merely clicking on a link wouldn't be enough to justify a search warrant, courts have ruled otherwise. On March 6, U.S. District Judge Roger Hunt in Nevada agreed with a magistrate judge that the hyperlink-sting operation constituted sufficient probable cause to justify giving the FBI its search warrant.

    The defendant in that case, Travis Carter, suggested that any of the neighbors could be using his wireless network. (The public defender's office even sent out an investigator who confirmed that dozens of homes were within Wi-Fi range.)

    But the magistrate judge ruled that even the possibilities of spoofing or other users of an open Wi-Fi connection "would not have negated a substantial basis for concluding that there was probable cause to believe that evidence of child pornography would be found on the premises to be searched." Translated, that means the search warrant was valid.


In other words, not only does it not matter where or how you got the link you clicked, you don't even have to have clicked it!

Some ahole drive-by stranger could have done it!

The possibilities of abuse are enormous, to say the least.

When link clicking is criminalized, we are all at risk. I don't care whether they manage to entrap the worst child molester in the world this way; that does not justify the risk of harm to a totally clueless person.

In fact, those who imagine they have nothing to fear because they're "not into that stuff" might be more at risk than actual pedophiles, as they're less likely to be cautious. If someone dared me to click a link, I'd probably click it. (Frankly, I don't think it should ever be a crime to click on a link, because of the possibility of abuse alone.)

What kind of person would set up a hyperlink system that could trap the unwary into clicking links? These scumbuckets are worse than Nigerian spammers, and if it isn't nipped in the bud, they'll probably resort to mass spammings in order to trap more people, and increase their damned budgets.

What kind of government would allow this to go on?

They call this law enforcement? These people are behaving like Soviet apparatchiks.

I'm not on the left, and I abhor socialism, but things like this make me want to write out a check right away and send it to the ACLU.

Some of what passes for law enforcement in this country is sickening.

More text that the site, to include links to other documents (if you dare click them).

One of the comments to the blog posting:
"Man, that sure could make "Rick-rolling" look pretty weak."

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Manedwolf

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2008, 08:27:38 AM »
And what if the link is force-opened on a newbie windows user when they visit an entirely unrelated site?

They still "visited" it.

How about the fact that a lot of people on cable internet don't have a static IP, and their neighbor's IP one week could be theirs the next?

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2008, 08:34:33 AM »
Instead of going after the sick bastards who are the consumers, why not spend resources finding, arresting, and prosecuting the perpetrators who are doing the deeds? 

Manedwolf

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2008, 08:38:22 AM »
Instead of going after the sick bastards who are the consumers, why not spend resources finding, arresting, and prosecuting the perpetrators who are doing the deeds? 

Because they're untouchable, they're mostly in the same countries where trafficking in child sex slaves goes on. Nigeria, Belarus...

MicroBalrog

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2008, 08:46:36 AM »
Instead of going after the sick bastards who are the consumers, why not spend resources finding, arresting, and prosecuting the perpetrators who are doing the deeds? 

Well, let's put it this way.

Suppose someone kidnaps two little children (or even one) and abuses them sexually.

If you purchase a video of this, you're funding this abuse, and are logically a collaborant.

Further, the people behind such laws believe (in part reasonably) that a consumer of this porn is in fact a potential pedophile.

On the other hand, drawings and statues of younguns in seductive positions (or in fact going at it) are legal in the US. Nobody goes after the people who buy these.
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2008, 08:52:12 AM »
Thought crime. police
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2008, 09:27:00 AM »
How about the fact that a lot of people on cable internet don't have a static IP, and their neighbor's IP one week could be theirs the next?

It is very easy to determine who had the IP and when.  I do it all the time. 

Dunno about cable, but even though my DSL ip is dynamic, it changes maybe once a year, if that.

Chris

mtnbkr

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2008, 09:27:53 AM »
BTW, this is old news.  I know for a fact that the govt was working on such things at least 7 years ago, if not longer.  I'm surprised it took this long to get noticed.

Chris

Manedwolf

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2008, 09:28:42 AM »
How about the fact that a lot of people on cable internet don't have a static IP, and their neighbor's IP one week could be theirs the next?

It is very easy to determine who had the IP and when.  I do it all the time. 


But would they bother? These are the same people who raid the wrong house due to a tip from an addict.

You really think they're that technically savvy? Or even care?

mtnbkr

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2008, 09:32:46 AM »
You really think they're that technically savvy? Or even care?

Technically savvy?  Abosolutely.  It's not exactly rocket science.  Hell, all they have to do is call the ISP (and probably show a warrant) to get the IP history.  Do they care?  Who knows...

Chris

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2008, 09:55:54 AM »
Thought crime. police

I hope you're not saying that actively seeking out and viewing sex acts (and worse) done to children is just a 'thought crime'.  Because it's far worse.  It creates a market for the distribution of this depravity.

And I agree-if you can't get the pedophile making and marketing this, definitely prosecute the consumer.  My point was that resources should first be directed at the source, where the damage is being done.


HankB

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2008, 10:18:04 AM »
Spam filtering has improved over the past few years, but I still occasionally get an email that contains objectionable material, including objectionable links.

And by objectionable, I mean stuff that even I find extremely offensive - and I'm pretty thick skinned.

And on occasion, they've managed to spoof the system to make it appear as if I sent this stuff to myself.  shocked

This cr@p is bad enough, but I'd hate to think that by unintentionally encountering something disgusting I could be targeted for a violent raid by the Feds.

(BTW, I agree that actively seeking kiddie porn is harming kids - it provides a demand for this stuff.)
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Manedwolf

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2008, 10:28:29 AM »
Spam is not going to stop unless all email is permission-based only, or we nuke Nigeria and some of the more lawless former Baltic states.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2008, 01:43:58 PM »
Thought crime. police

this is worse.  Far worse.
(Ps:  Intentionally seeking out child pornography isn't thought crime.  Its creating a demand for a product that victimizes helpless people.)

Link a is labeled as kiddie porn, link b is labeled as regular porn.  You're a little drunk, but being of a reasonable moral charcter are not going to click on the kiddie porn...but being a little drunk, your hand-eye coordination is off and you click on the wrong link.  Nope, didn't want to go there......
<knock
<knock
<crash!

FBI!  Get on the floor, you pervert!!


This goes too far. 

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erictank

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2008, 02:01:50 PM »
Thought crime. police

I hope you're not saying that actively seeking out and viewing sex acts (and worse) done to children is just a 'thought crime'.  Because it's far worse.  It creates a market for the distribution of this depravity.

That's not what I got from that article (or Bob's statement) at all - since ANYONE clicking the link, regardless of how it was placed on their computer or how it might be disguised, gets a no-knock.  A guy's 8-year old kid randomly clicks on something that showed up by email, and the next morning, the FBI breaks down the door and jacks the father up because, by God, he's a pedophile!!!!

Do you really NOT see a problem with that?

I don't think ANYONE here is supporting kiddie porn.  Haven't seen any indication of such in this thread yet, certainly, and I'd be awfully surprised, based on observations of the individuals on this board to date, if anyone DID find it an acceptable sexual outlet.  But this is FAR outside the realm of "appropriate measures" in response to that problem, from what I can see.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2008, 02:05:46 PM »
>Because they're untouchable, they're mostly in the same countries where trafficking in child sex slaves goes on. Nigeria, Belarus...<

Although a lot of the kiddie porn is produced where it's "legal", there's still a fair trade in "domestic made" stuff. The perps are just VERY careful (and usually have connections to protect themselves)...

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2008, 02:17:28 PM »
So, erictank, you see no problem with anyone 'clicking a link' that

Quote
purport(s) to be illegal videos of minors having sex,

there's the problem right there.   Anybody who would 'click' such a link needs intervention and prosecution if necessary.  Anybody who would click such a link most likely has child 'pornography' on their hard drive.

Bust 'em. Prosecute 'em.  Jail 'em. 

erictank

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2008, 02:22:53 PM »
So, erictank, you see no problem with anyone 'clicking a link' that

Quote
purport(s) to be illegal videos of minors having sex,

there's the problem right there.   Anybody who would 'click' such a link needs intervention and prosecution if necessary.  Anybody who would click such a link most likely has child 'pornography' on their hard drive.

Bust 'em. Prosecute 'em.  Jail 'em. 

How many times have YOU clicked on the wrong link?  Not one that you shouldn't click on - just one which was not the one you intended to click.  Ever?  In your whole computing life?

Congratulations.  The FBI will be with you tomorrow.  Be sure to make extra coffee, and set out the mugs so they can grab one while they're kneeling on your spine in the middle of the kitchen floor.

The point is, there are ALL kinds of reasons why this can sweep up people who ARE NOT pedophiles, who are NOT guilty of any crime, let alone one requiring an armed raid by dawn's early light.  And those involved, apparently, DO NOT CARE.

Me, I see that as a problem.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2008, 02:26:03 PM »
I don't click on links that purport to show minors having illegal sex.  If you do, you deserve what you get. Anything from computer viruses to FBI no-knocks is OK by me. 

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2008, 03:33:05 PM »
I suppose the question then becomes "Was the link purporting to be for child porn?"

 See, you can make a hyperlink say anything you want. If the link says "5 year olds gettin' it on!", then you're a sick bastard and should be hung. If it says "Click here for something unusual", it enters a grey area. And if it says "College girls gone wild", it's outright entrapment...

 The devil (as usual), is in the details.

Finch

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2008, 03:37:46 PM »
One can easily spoof an IP address or use someone's WIFI to abuse this alleged tool. I can see this being used as payback.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2008, 03:39:07 PM »
IPs can be spoofed. MACs can be spoofed. Lots of things can be spoofed.

Plus, activeX controls can force people to open behind-the-window popups without even knowing it.

Phyphor

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2008, 03:46:48 PM »
Hell, it'd be relatively simple to infect a victim with a trojan that would access the 'forbidden' link w/o their knowledge.

I applaud the removal of perverts from society, however I can see this eventually backfiring, 'for the lulz' as some would say...
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johnster999

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2008, 04:04:50 PM »
Why not just blanket the internet with phony links to non-existent illegal porn then build a list of physical addresses from the huge number of resulting IPs? The judge will approve warrants for them all. We'll kick in a thousand doors a day and if we're wrong about a few, well then we're wrong. Tough luck. It's not like you can sue the feds.

mtnbkr

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Re: Quick as a link, you're in the clink!
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2008, 04:33:00 PM »
I was in a meeting once where we discussed using my employer's honeypot product to create virtual webservers to snare child porn aficionados.

We didn't get the business for the honeypot product, but it shows it was on their minds...8 years ago.

And *Paddy*, I know you hate child pornographers, amongst everything else, but would it be ok to violate the rights of the person who clicked this link Kinky Legal Sex?

That's the problem I have with this.  While .gov's motives and implementation might be pure, what's to stop someone from posting the link in an email or another website tagged as something less illegal or even mainstream.  Who knows, the next Blueblockers link you click might take you to the fed's trap.  Do you mouse-over every link to see what it actually goes to?  If not, you'll be an easy patsy.

Chris