Author Topic: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil  (Read 50713 times)

jackdanson

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #150 on: January 07, 2010, 02:20:31 PM »
Quote
So... you don't like Japanese people? Good to know.

No, I love Japanese people, they make my oddities seem tame by comparison.

Who couldn't love a nation that celebrates cannibals?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issei_Sagawa

(all in good humor, btw... I don't have anything against most Japanese people/culture/etc.... they are generally a great people, don't quite agree with their whaling stance, cultural differences, I guess)

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #151 on: January 07, 2010, 02:24:37 PM »
I agree that South Park pretty much summed up the sea shepherd eco-extremists; it's all about publicity and trying to act tough. 

Comedy Central played that episode (coinkeedink? I think not) last night. I'm surprised I didn't wake my wife, as I was ROFLMAO!
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

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Gowen

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #152 on: January 07, 2010, 03:50:11 PM »
No, I love Japanese people, they make my oddities seem tame by comparison.

Who couldn't love a nation that celebrates cannibals?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issei_Sagawa

(all in good humor, btw... I don't have anything against most Japanese people/culture/etc.... they are generally a great people, don't quite agree with their whaling stance, cultural differences, I guess)

This has been going on for quite some time:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyboys:_A_True_Story_of_Courage
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Gewehr98

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #153 on: January 07, 2010, 05:22:11 PM »
[Subtle Hint Mode On]

Let's stick to the thread topic, and back off of harpooning fellow forum members, ok?

[Subtle Hint Mode Off]

I applaud the Sea Shepard's convictions, in light of them fighting the "research" harvesting of whales by the Japs in Aussie territorial waters.  Why the Aussies and Kiwis don't take care of the problem themselves is indeed a good question.  However, I don't particularly think the Sea Shepard gang is doing so hot in the execution phase of their plan...  This is a battle that should be fought in the UN or other world forums.  =|
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Gowen

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #154 on: January 07, 2010, 05:52:07 PM »
Ummmm.... (cough)...  Yes, though, I don't support whaling, I hold in even less regard eco-terrorist.  Whaler's 1, eco-terrorist 0. =D
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drewtam

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #155 on: January 07, 2010, 06:33:31 PM »
[Subtle Hint Mode On]

Let's stick to the thread topic, and back off of harpooning fellow forum members, ok?

[Subtle Hint Mode Off]

I applaud the Sea Shepard's convictions, in light of them fighting the "research" harvesting of whales by the Japs in Aussie territorial waters.  Why the Aussies and Kiwis don't take care of the problem themselves is indeed a good question.  However, I don't particularly think the Sea Shepard gang is doing so hot in the execution phase of their plan...  This is a battle that should be fought in the UN or other world forums.  =|

Even Greenpeace has begun to go that route. I read they were stopping the confrontations at sea, and are now focusing on winning votes/influencing gov't policy.
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De Selby

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #156 on: January 07, 2010, 06:42:45 PM »
G98 has my view in a nutshell, really.

Carebear, I don't any such defense would be available the activists.  I've been pretty consistent on that point in my posts - ramming/interefering with other ships in this manner is not legal, even for a good reason.  However, I reserve my scorn for the whalers who are creating the situation in the first place. 

The idea that the whalers would have the right to attack and sink an activist's vessel because the hippies are getting out of line is outrageous, imo,  but I've seen very nearly that view repeated many times on this thread. 

People engaged in illicit activities don't have any right to defend their pursuits.  And I don't believe this activity is legal; the convention (to which Japan is a party) allows for research, and this clearly isn't research.  Just because the whalers call it that doesn't make it so.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #157 on: January 07, 2010, 06:59:58 PM »
The idea that the whalers would have the right to attack and sink an activist's vessel because the hippies are getting out of line attempting to disable the props or rudder of a ship in choppy antarctic waters or blind the crew with high powered green lasers is outrageous perfectly rational.

911 doesn't work on the ocean.  There's no ocean police.

There's just arguing, afterwards, by interested parties.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #158 on: January 07, 2010, 07:05:15 PM »
Not likely.  Those people would probably *expletive deleted*it themselves if they thought they were going to have to dock in Somalia, Yemen, or some other unnamed cesspool.  It's easy to be tough when you know the other guy won't really fight back.

Hence the lack of PETA protests at Hells Angels rallies, eh?


De Selby

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #159 on: January 07, 2010, 07:07:25 PM »
The idea that the whalers would have the right to attack and sink an activist's vessel because the hippies are getting out of line attempting to disable the props or rudder of a ship in choppy antarctic waters or blind the crew with high powered green lasers is outrageous perfectly rational.

911 doesn't work on the ocean.  There's no ocean police.

There's just arguing, afterwards, by interested parties.

Would you be equally just as fine if the activists acquired naval weapons and sank a whaler? "Eh, whatever, there's no law here, just arguing...."  

If there're no rules to be followed and the ocean is just an anarchy zone, what're your grounds for being upset at the sea shepard types?  

I think it's fair to call the prop-roping and other techniques wrong, even criminal.  But then again I see a basis for that in law.  If it's all about strength and no rules apply, I see no rational basis for complaining about it.

Edit: Let me make an important distinction here - there's a difference between trying to cut the ropes and blasting a vessel with the hoses when that vessel is actively attacking the whaler, and heading out to sink the activist's vessel on sight to forestall those activities.  I think it's more accurate to say you have no right to preventative or retaliatory self-defense on the water if you're whaling.

Having seen the video, using the firehose on the crew after the Ady Gil was rammed is tantamount to attempted murder.  That was the most criminal act on tape if you ask me.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 07:11:30 PM by shootinstudent »
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Balog

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #160 on: January 07, 2010, 07:37:04 PM »
Quote
Having seen the video, using the firehose on the crew after the Ady Gil was rammed is tantamount to attempted murder.  That was the most criminal act on tape if you ask me.

How do you feel about the actions of the "Sea Shepherds" that actually, you know, killed someone?
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dogmush

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #161 on: January 07, 2010, 07:42:52 PM »
Would you be equally just as fine if the activists acquired naval weapons and sank a whaler? "Eh, whatever, there's no law here, just arguing...."  

If there're no rules to be followed and the ocean is just an anarchy zone, what're your grounds for being upset at the sea shepard types?  

This almost boggles the mind.

No one here is saying there's no rules in the ocean.  You made that up whole cloth.  In fact everyone's mad at the Sea Sheppards for breaking the rules.

Let me spell out the distinction here for you.

The Sea Shepherds are endangering people.

The whalers are endangering big, tasty fish

Thats why force is justified in stopping the pirates, and not the whalers.  If the world passes an international treaty that says anyone harvesting whales  are very bad people and should be sunk immidiatelly, then the Sea Shepherds would have a case.  'Till then there's international courts for this kind of thing, and they should be there.  This is akin to trying to run folks off the road because they drive Hummers.

De Selby

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #162 on: January 07, 2010, 07:50:02 PM »
How do you feel about the actions of the "Sea Shepherds" that actually, you know, killed someone?

It's criminal - they ought to be restrained from doing it and punished where they do.  But it would be best if the illegal whalers didn't create the situation in the first place.

dogmush, I was responding to AZRedhawk's post where he specifically said he recognises no such laws, rules, or otherwise, and that only force matters.

This is starting to make me think of that line in the Big Lebowski, at the end:

"Who's crying about fair? You guys are the nihilists"
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Jamisjockey

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #163 on: January 07, 2010, 07:56:00 PM »
Quote
I think it's fair to call the prop-roping and other techniques wrong, even criminal.  But then again I see a basis for that in law.  If it's all about strength and no rules apply, I see no rational basis for complaining about it.

SS, I think you don't understand how the ocean works.  A disabled vessel in the open ocean is deadly.  As soon as the vessel has no power to turn into large waves, it will be rolled broadside and capsize.  This causes the death of PEOPLE.
Also, the Sea Shepard people were using FREAKING LASERS in an attempt to blind the crew of the whalers.
You again ignore comparative arguments.  You are not justified in breaking the law to stop someone else from doing it.  You are not justified in escalating a situation by attacking another vessel. 
You're the one that just doesn't get it.
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De Selby

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #164 on: January 07, 2010, 08:04:32 PM »
SS, I think you don't understand how the ocean works.  A disabled vessel in the open ocean is deadly.  As soon as the vessel has no power to turn into large waves, it will be rolled broadside and capsize.  This causes the death of PEOPLE.
Also, the Sea Shepard people were using FREAKING LASERS in an attempt to blind the crew of the whalers.
You again ignore comparative arguments.  You are not justified in breaking the law to stop someone else from doing it.  You are not justified in escalating a situation by attacking another vessel. 
You're the one that just doesn't get it.

I'm not sure where the disagreement is - I just said all those things were criminal and that a vessel, even a whaler, has a right to stop them.  The piece you quoted said "wrong, even criminal", ie, as a response to AZRedhawk's claim that there is no such thing as a crime on the seas.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

griz

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #165 on: January 07, 2010, 08:26:04 PM »
Quote
there's a difference between trying to cut the ropes and blasting a vessel with the hoses when that vessel is actively attacking the whaler, and heading out to sink the activist's vessel on sight to forestall those activities.

Does this compare to individual self defence?  If somebody takes a shot at me then his gun jams, must I wait to he gets it operational again to shoot back?
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brimic

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #166 on: January 07, 2010, 08:29:42 PM »
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I'm not sure where the disagreement is - I just said all those things were criminal and that a vessel, even a whaler, has a right to stop them.

Then what's the problem with running over offending vessel, if even in some people's bizarro world view that the Japanese vessel deliberately turned to hit the smaller vessel? (Which once again for those who have no knowledge of ocean going vessels such an act could easily tear a hole in the hull of the bigger ship sinking it, and no Captain worth his salt would allow for, especially in the waters that they were in).


 [popcorn]
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De Selby

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #167 on: January 07, 2010, 08:31:40 PM »
Does this compare to individual self defence?  If somebody takes a shot at me then his gun jams, must I wait to he gets it operational again to shoot back?

Obviously the answer differs depending on whether you're committing a crime too, and how you both came to be involved in that situation.

If he's blocking the freeway to prevent you from stealing a car, yeah, that's illegal and dumb.  But you don't get a free pass on running him over, even if he starts to get violent and breaks the law himself.

As I've said, I think both parties involved are doing wrong.  But I think the greater focus ought to be on the whalers stopping their illegal trade.  I'm mainly responding to all the comments about how the whalers should just sink greenies on sight, and how awful the greenies are in comparison.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

brimic

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #168 on: January 07, 2010, 08:31:49 PM »
Quote
This is a battle that should be fought in the UN or other world forums.
Ha! You are right. It should be fought in the halls of the UN and other similar useless groups- no ecoterrorists or fishermen would get hurt. :laugh:
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

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De Selby

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #169 on: January 07, 2010, 08:35:07 PM »
Then what's the problem with running over offending vessel, if even in some people's bizarro world view that the Japanese vessel deliberately turned to hit the smaller vessel? (Which once again for those who have no knowledge of ocean going vessels such an act could easily tear a hole in the hull of the bigger ship sinking it, and no Captain worth his salt would allow for, especially in the waters that they were in).


 [popcorn]

It's the same crime - that's the problem.  Two crooks who injure each other can't go to court and say "hey, he was trying to hurt me!" when charged. 

Also, watching the video, responsibility for the collision isn't clear, but there is at least one obviously criminal act on that tape - the hose being turned on the crew of the Ady Gill after the collision.

Trying to blast crew off the deck of a disabled vehicle is no different from firing a rifle at them.  I'm surprised there isn't more outrage at that portion of the incident involved.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

brimic

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #170 on: January 07, 2010, 08:42:04 PM »
Quote
Also, watching the video, responsibility for the collision isn't clear, but there is at least one obviously criminal act on that tape - the hose being turned on the crew of the Ady Gill after the collision.

Trying to blast crew off the deck of a disabled vehicle is no different from firing a rifle at them.  I'm surprised there isn't more outrage at that portion of the incident involved.

Bwahaha!  I thought that part of the video was hilarious.  

Seriously, they had every right to train the water canon at the pirates as the offending vessel was moving toward the stern of the Japanese vessel- the eco-idiots had a reputation for throwing things in the water to damage props. These morons should try their stunts on a Destroyer once, I bet they get shot at with something bigger than rifles. =D
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #171 on: January 07, 2010, 08:52:08 PM »
lets cut the crap.  the aussies have issues with the japanese  started  about 1940  or so and hasn't gotten a whole lot better


When the commercial whaling moratorium was introduced by the IWC in 1982, Japan lodged an official objection. However, in response to US threats to cut Japan's fishing quota in US territorial waters under the terms of the Packwood-Magnuson Amendment, Japan withdrew its objection in 1987. However, according to the BBC, America went back on this promise, effectively destroying the deal.[14] Since Japan could not resume commercial whaling, it began whaling on a scientific-research basis. Australia, Greenpeace, the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society and other groups dispute the Japanese claim of research "as a disguise for commercial whaling, which is banned."


Norway registered an objection to the International Whaling Commission moratorium and is thus not bound by it. Commercial whaling did cease for a five year period during which a small scientific catch was made to gauge the sustainability of the stock, and resumed 1993. Only minke whales are permitted to be caught.

Norwegian minke whale catches have fluctuated between 487 animals in 2000 to 592 in 2007. The catch is made solely from the Northeast Atlantic minke whale population, which is estimated to consist of 103,000 animals (2008 IWC).

Iceland
Main article: Whaling in Iceland
Icelandic whaling vessels
Minke whale meat kebabs, Reykjavik

Iceland did not lodge an objection against the 1982 IWC moratorium, which came into force in 1986. Between 1986 and 1989 around 60 animals per year were taken under a scientific permit. However, under strong pressure from anti-whaling countries, who viewed scientific whaling as a circumvention of the moratorium,[citation needed] Iceland ceased whaling altogether in 1989. Following the 1991 refusal of the IWC to accept its Scientific Committee's recommendation to allow sustainable commercial whaling, Iceland left the IWC in 1992.

Iceland rejoined the IWC in 2002 with a reservation to the moratorium. Iceland presented a feasibility study to the 2003 IWC meeting for catches in 2003 and 2004. The primary aim of the study was to deepen the understanding of fish-whale interactions. Amid disagreement within the IWC Scientific Committee about the value of the research and its relevance to IWC objectives,[10] no decision on the proposal was reached. However, under the terms of the convention the Icelandic government issued permits for a scientific catch. In 2003 Iceland resumed scientific whaling which continued in 2004 and 2005.

Iceland resumed commercial whaling in 2006. The annual quota is set to 30 minke whales (out of an estimated 174,000 animals in the central and north-eastern North Atlantic[11]) and nine fin whales (out of an estimated 30,000 animals in the central and north-eastern North Atlantic[11][12]).


It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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brimic

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #172 on: January 07, 2010, 08:58:42 PM »
^So is what Japan is doing legal or illegal?^
If its 'illegal' what legal/government entity is allowed to do what enforcement?

It sounds like the Japanese were part of a civil contract which was breached by another party.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #173 on: January 07, 2010, 09:08:53 PM »
but but but  that would make paul watson   .... what?

this  according to his former brothers at greenpeace

Paul Watson, Sea Shepherd and Greenpeace: some facts

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Paul Watson is the founder of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society and an early member of Greenpeace. Over the last few years, Paul has become extremely critical of Greenpeace in the press and at his website. The information below is provided as a service to our supporters to get a few facts out on the table about Paul's history with Greenpeace and the nature of our disagreements.

Paul Watson became active with Greenpeace in 1971 as a member of our second expedition against nuclear weapons testing in Amchitka, and went on to participate in actions against whaling and the killing of harp seals.  He was an influential early member but not, as he sometimes claims, a founder.

He was expelled from the leadership of Greenpeace in 1977 by a vote of 11 to one (only Watson himself voted against it).

Bob Hunter (one of Greenpeace's early leaders, after whom a Sea Shepherd vessel was named) described the event in his book, the Greenpeace Chronicles:

'No one doubted his [Watson's] courage for a moment. He was a great warrior brother. Yet in terms of the Greenpeace gestalt, he seemed possessed by too powerful a drive, too unrelenting a desire to push himself front and center, shouldering everyone else aside… He had consistently gone around to other offices, acting out the role of mutineer. Everywhere he went, he created divisiveness… We all felt we'd got trapped in a web no one wanted to see develop, yet now that it had, there was nothing to do but bring down the axe, even if it meant bringing it down on the neck of our brother."
Confusion: Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd


Watson founded his own group, Sea Shepherd, in 1977.

    * in 1986, Sea Shepherd carried out an action against the Icelandic whaling station in Hvalfjoerdur and sank two Icelandic whaling vessels in Reykjavik harbor by opening their sea valves;[1]
    * in December 1992, Sea Shepherd sank the vessel Nybroena in port;[2]
    * Sea Shepherd claimed to have sank the Taiwanese drift net ship Jiang Hai in port in Taiwan and to have rammed and disabled four other Asian drift net ships;[3]
    * a Canadian court ordered Watson and his former ship, the Cleveland Armory, to pay a total of $35,000 for ramming a Cuban fishing vessel off the coast of Newfoundland in June 1993;[4]
    * in January 1994 the group severely damaged the whaling ship Senet in the Norwegian port of Gressvik.[5]

 

Each of the whaling ships noted above was refloated and refitted for continued whaling.

In a 2008 article in the New Yorker, Watson claims that Sea Shepherd has sunk ten ships since its founding, but the author of the article notes, with some skepticism, that she was unable to verify that number.

Paul Watson's and Sea Shepherd's actions have sometimes been wrongly attributed to Greenpeace, often in an attempt by others to damage Greenpeace's reputation for non-violence.

Greenpeace has never sunk a whaling ship.

Some anti-environmentalists try to use the fact that an extreme minority in the environmental movement resorts to force and sabotage to brand the movement as a whole as "terrorist." One such attempt has been specifically condemned by a Norwegian court. [7]

In 1991, we had an agreement with Sea Shepherd that we would refrain from public criticism of one another. Today, many of Sea Shepherd's fundraising communications and Paul Watson's public communications are filled with attacks on Greenpeace, our methods, our activists, and our supporters. They are often peppered with inaccuracies and outright untruths. Paul Watson is still fighting a one-sided battle that was over for Greenpeace in 1977.

In most cases, we simply don't respond to Paul Watson's criticism.  While we don't agree with Sea Shepherd's methods, we also know that stories of divisiveness within the ranks of environmental groups distract from the real issues which unite us, and we prefer that when the media writes about whaling, they write about the real issues. Although Paul Watson is a vehement anti-whaling activist, he regularly lends his support to attacks on Greenpeace -- some of them organized by the whalers themselves. [8]

Our committment to non-violence: why we don't cooperate


Paul Watson has made many public requests for Greenpeace to reveal the location of the whaling fleet or otherwise cooperate with Sea Shepherd in the Southern Ocean when the ships of both organizations have been there simultaneously.

We passionately want to stop whaling, and will do so peacefully. That's why we won't help Sea Shepherd. Greenpeace is committed to non-violence and we'll never, ever, change that; not for anything. If we helped Sea Shepherd to find the whaling fleet we'd be responsible for anything they did having got that information, and history shows that they've used violence in the past, in the most dangerous seas on Earth. For us, non-violence is a non-negotiable, precious principle. Greenpeace will continue to act to defend the whales, but will never attack or endanger the whalers.

We differ with Paul Watson on what constitutes violence. He states that nobody has ever been harmed by a Sea Shepherd action.  But the test of non-violence is the nature of your action, not whether harm results or not.  There are many acts of violence -- for example, holding a gun to someone's head -- which result in no harm.  That doesn't change their nature. We believe that throwing butryic acid at the whalers, dropping cables to foul their props, and threatening to ram them in the freezing waters of the Antarctic constitutes violence because of the potential consequences. The fact that the consequences have not been realized is irrelevant.

In addition to being morally wrong, we believe the use of violence in protection of whales to be a tactical error. If there's one way to harden Japanese public opinion and ensure whaling continues, it's to use violent tactics against their fleet. It's wrong because it puts human lives at risk, and it's wrong because it makes the whalers stronger in Japan.
 
We work with many other groups whose methods differ from ours, and we know the power of cooperation among groups with a common objective but diverse ways of working.  For decades, we have had productive working relationships with the Worldwide Fund for Nature, Friends of the Earth, International Fund for Animal Welfare, Sierra Club, Environmental Investigative Agency, and a host of other groups dedicated to whale conservation.   We would only be willing to cooperate with Sea Shepherd under the condition that it would not facilitate endangering human life.

To give one example, in 2005/2006, Sea Shepherd attempted to snarl the propeller of the Nisshin Maru with a rope and cable, as reported on their own website:
 

Two of our three zodiacs were equipped with devices we had made to foul their propeller; basically two buoys connected with steel cable and rope that we would place in front of their ship in hopes that the Maru would run it over, it would pass underneath their hull and into their propeller at the stern of their ship causing their ship to slow down dramatically or be stopped completely. The Maru was running at full speed away from the Farley. Both zodiacs deployed their devices repeatedly. None seemed to work against the goliath Nisshin Maru ship...

Running out of options and having lost both of our propeller fouling devices, all hope seemed lost of slowing the Maru...

 
Disabling a ship at sea in the Antarctic, regardless of how much one may object to its activities, is not only a callous act of disregard for human life -- it's courting an environmental disaster in one of the most fragile environments in the world.

Such tactics are not only dangerous to the whalers, they are dangerous to the cause of stopping Japanese whaling. Our political analysis is unequivocal: if Japanese whaling is to be stopped, it will be stopped by a domestic decision within the Japanese government to do so.   That's why we have invested heavily in a Greenpeace office in Japan and efforts to speak directly to the Japanese public -- 70 percent of whom are unaware that whaling takes place in the Southern Ocean at all.  A majority of those who are aware of the whaling program, oppose it.   Support for whaling in Japan has been steadily falling for the last decade. Consumption of whale meat is in decline, the cost of the program to taxpayers is being questioned by the business community, and the political costs of the program have created opposition in the Foreign Affairs department in Japan.  All of this progress could be undone by a nationalist backlash.  By making it easy to paint anti-whaling forces as dangerous, piratical terrorists, Sea Shepherd could undermine the forces within Japan which could actually bring whaling to an end.
A few facts


We've got fairly thick skins here at Greenpeace.  When you challenge powerful forces, you need to be ready to put up with accusations of ulterior motives and hidden agendas. What's unfortunate is when we have to spend time countering friendly fire -- attacks by an organization that shares the same goals as we do.  We don't mind robust disagreements, but we do object to falsehoods.

As the New Yorker article on Paul Watson noted, in his book "Earthforce!":

    Watson advises readers to make up facts and figures when they need to, and to deliver them to reporters confidently,  "as Ronald Reagan did."


Paul Watson has claimed that Greenpeace goes to the Antarctic merely to film whales being killed, to wave banners and to bear witness to their deaths -- but does nothing to save them.

This is untrue.
Greenpeace saves whales


Greenpeace has directly saved the lives of countless whales over more than three decades by maneuvering our boats between the harpoon and the whale. Many of us have risked our lives in those actions from Iceland to the Antarctic. But, while we consider it acceptable to risk our own lives for the whales, we don't believe in risking anyone else's.

In 2006, a harpoon was fired over one of our inflatables and the line fell on the boat, pulling one crew member into the freezing waters of the Antarctic. According to records kept by the whalers (we were too busy to keep records), we interfered with them 26 times in 2006. Shortly after sighting us, the whalers departed at high speed -- their own records show they lost nine days of hunting due to interference with their operations.  The whalers rammed our ships twice, hit one of our crew members with a metal pole, and used a high-powered water cannon against us. Despite this, they came in 82 whales short of their quota.  In 2008, the whalers ran from us for 14 consecutive days, days that were lost to them for hunting. Since they need to catch an average of around 9-10 whales a day to make their self-appointed quota, this action alone saved the lives of over 100 whales.

Greenpeace works to save whales around the world, all year round, and with a variety of tactics.

Along with the Worldwide Fund for Nature, we were the primary advocates that created public pressure for the moratorium on commercial whaling which was agreed in 1982.  That single piece of work has saved the lives of tens of thousands of whales and ended the whaling programs of the Soviet Union, Brazil, Peru, Chile, and Spain.

We have undertaken political work to maintain support for the moratorium on commercial whaling and counter Japanese vote-buying schemes. There have been years in which the conservation majority in the International Whaling Commission has hung by a thread,  in one case by a single vote. By lobbying conservation-minded countries to join the International Whaling Commission and successfully pressuring countries like Denmark to change their policies toward conservation, our millions of supporters and activists have worked quietly behind the scenes to save whales.

 
Working in Japan to stop whaling

Greenpeace has had an office in Japan since 1989.  As a result of hard, steady work over the years we have succeeded in making whaling a subject of domestic debate in Japan where none has existed before.  We've brought Japanese celebrities, musicians, and artists to speak out against whaling, exposed taxpayer-sponsored promotional efforts by the Japanese government -- by exposing waste and corruption in the bureaucracy that supports whaling, we've generated criticism of whaling in some of Japan's largest newspapers, and articles in the business press asking whether Japan should end its whaling program.

On May 15, 2008, Greenpeace Japan used undercover investigators and the testimony of informers to expose that large amounts of prime cut whale meat were being smuggled from the whaling ship Nisshin Maru disguised as personal baggage, labeled "cardboard" or "salted stuff" and addressed to the private homes of crewmembers. Greenpeace activists Junichi Sato and Toru Suzuki intercepted one box out of four sent to one address, discovered it contained whale meat valued at up to US$3,000, and took it to the Tokyo public prosecutor.

Their public press conference drew national attention in Japan, and a promise by the public prosecutor to "fully investigate" the charges.

Instead, Junichi and Toru were arrested for stealing the box of whale meat, and the scandal investigation was dropped by the Tokyo public prosecutor's office the same day; it was clear that the two events were connected, just as it is clear that both were politically motivated. Although Junichi and Toru had provided full cooperation to the police, it took some five weeks to make the arrests, and when they did, more than 40 officers raided the Greenpeace Japan office, with the media tipped off by police beforehand.  The Greenpeace activists learned of their imminent arrest from the TV news the same day the embezzlement case was dropped.

The two activists now face up to ten years imprisonment.  We consider them political prisoners, and believe that powerful forces have instrumented a crackdown aimed at discrediting Greenpeace in Japanese society.  This means we've hit a nerve.  We intend to put all our efforts into turning the tables, and putting the whaling interests on trial in the court of public opinion in Japan.  We see the reaction of whaling interests as conforming perfectly to the way the most successful Greenpeace campaigns play out: "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you. Then you win."
Greenpeace has too much money?

Watson likes to paint a picture of Greenpeace as enjoying vast riches, but in fact Greenpeace accepts no money from governments or corporations, and our resources are minuscule compared to the task before us. We rely almost entirely on the donations of nearly 3 million people worldwide, and we spend those hard-earned donations in ways that win campaigns for the environment.

To put our budget in perspective, in 2007 Exxon-Mobil generated more revenue in less than six hours than Greenpeace raised worldwide from its supporters for the entire year.  Our annual donations are less than the value of seven days of the global value of the illegal forest industry, or three days of the subsidies to the global fisheries industry.  The nuclear industry spends more money in advertising than Greenpeace International's entire operating budget.

The full breakdown of what we raise, what we spend, and what we spend it on is released every year in our Annual Report.

Most importantly, Greenpeace gets results.  In the three decades since our founding, we have combined our unique brand of non-violent direct action with political lobbying, scientific research, and public mobilization to bring an end to nuclear weapons testing, stop the dumping of hazardous waste at sea, secure the moratorium on commercial whaling, and win dozens of other significant steps toward our ultimate goal of a green and peaceful future for our planet.
In conclusion


Paul Watson is welcome to express his opinions about Greenpeace -- as a more progressive environmental organization, we have a wide spectrum of detractors, and we welcome fair criticism.  But, we expect fair debate to be based in fact, not falsehoods.

 

 

 

 

 



[1] New York Times, November 10, 1986: Militants sink two of Iceland's Whaling Vessels
[2] Reuters, 3 June 1994: Norway Sentences Anti-Whaling Activists
[3] Sea Shepherd Conservation Society fact sheet, Econet, spring 1994
[4] Sea Shepherd Media Release, April 12, 1994
[5] Sea Shepherd Media Release, January 24, 1994
[6] Examples: Sea Shepherd Media Release, April 25, 1994; Sea Shepherd Log, Second Quarter 1993
[7] Greenpeace Norge v. Magnus Gudmundsson and Anor, Oslo, March 17-March 21, 1992
[8] In "The Man in the Rainbow" Watson appeared alongside representatives of the pro-whaling High North Alliance and the anti-environmental Wise Use movement to condemn Greenpeace and cast aspersions on the entire environmental community. The film was deemed libellous by a German court.

It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Japanese ship deliberately rams the Ady Gil
« Reply #174 on: January 07, 2010, 09:53:10 PM »
Watson feels that "no human community should be larger than 20,000 people," human populations need to be reduced radically to "fewer than one billion," and only those who are "completely dedicated to the responsibility" of caring for the biosphere should have children, which is a "very small percentage of humans." He likens humankind to a virus, the biosphere needs to get cured from with a "radical and invasive approach," as from cancer.[18]
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I