Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Waitone on January 19, 2011, 05:47:23 PM
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I oppose ethanol mandates in gasoline as a matter of principle. Besides that, it is just plain ol' stupid to burn food in a gas tank.
Here is an article that puts facts to stupidity.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article25621.html
And the money quote: This year, the US will harvest approximately 12.5 million bushels of corn. More than 42% will be used to feed livestock in the US, another 40% will be used to produce government mandated ethanol fuel, 2% will be used for food products, and 16% is exported to other countries.
Hey, Republicans! You want to cut the budget? Here's a place to start.
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More than 42% will be used to feed livestock in the US,
All those cows and pigs do is fart and destroy the ozone, along with cars. 82% of our corn kills mother Erf!
If we weren't such meat-eating babycow and babypig and babychicken murderers we wouldn't need to grow that corn, either. :'(
Won't someone please think of the Erf-animals?
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Ethanol is welfare for farmers.
Don't expect much movement on ethanol so long as the Iowa caucuses play such a large role in presidential politics.
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I'd like to see something like this work. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/a-brave-new-world-of-fossil-fuels-on-demand/article1871149/) Until then, I fill up at one of the few places that carries ethanol free fuel. Here's a list of them. (http://pure-gas.org/)
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I can't figure out the savings in putting 10% ethanol in gas so that you get 20% less gas mileage ;/
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I can't figure out the savings in putting 10% ethanol in gas so that you get 20% less gas mileage
It's just like Biden saying we have to spend more money to keep from going bankrupt. Get it?
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The corn used for ethanol is not the corn grown for human consumption. The amount of land dedicated to food corn has not changed.
Brad
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The corn used for ethanol is not the corn grown for human consumption. The amount of land dedicated to food corn has not changed.
Brad
Correct. But that non-consumption corn is using farm land that could be used for something else. There's no way that it is not influencing the cost of other food.
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Most of the added production of ethanol uses grain that would normally have been exported. Again, no impact on the amount of grain available for the U.S. market. Also, land laid fallow through CRP, and which has been brough back into production after the program ended, has been used to make up any shortfall.
Look, folks, the ethanol vs land vs "We're Gonna Die!!!" debate is old, tired, and dead. The farmers and the commodities market is self-correcting for any potential shortfall. The debate lives because people have no freakin clue about what's actually involved in grain production and how massive that market actually is.
Brad
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I oppose ethanol mandates in gasoline as a matter of principle. Besides that, it is just plain ol' stupid to burn food in a gas tank.
Here is an article that puts facts to stupidity.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article25621.html
And the money quote:
Hey, Republicans! You want to cut the budget? Here's a place to start.
Isn't their figure of the corn harvest off by several orders of magnitude? We have something like 90 million cultivated acres of corn in a typical year; last year's yield - in my part of Minnesota - averaged 200 bushels per acre. Doing the basic arithmetic delivers 18 Billion (or 18 thousand million for the Europeans here) bushels of corn.
Jon
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Most of the added production of ethanol uses grain that would normally have been exported. Again, no impact on the amount of grain available for the U.S. market. Also, land laid fallow through CRP, and which has been brough back into production after the program ended, has been used to make up any shortfall.
Look, folks, the ethanol vs land vs "We're Gonna Die!!!" debate is old, tired, and dead. The farmers and the commodities market is self-correcting for any potential shortfall. The debate lives because people have no freakin clue about what's actually involved in grain production and how massive that market actually is.
Brad
1) Corn is a fungible resource. "It is normally exported" doesn't mean it has no effect on prices.
2) Ethanol as a whole is stupid whether we use corn or not. We are devoting land for a product that cannot stand on its own- Ethanol is subsidized, mandated, and protected against foreign competition. The US usually does one of those three to help a product. Ethanol gets all three government supports.
3) The size of the market is rather unimportant when you talk about percentages. 40% is huge. That is land that could be used for other purposes. If it were mandated fallow otherwise, then that is yet another example of how the government needs to get out of farming.
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Most of the added production of ethanol uses grain that would normally have been exported. Again, no impact on the amount of grain available for the U.S. market. Also, land laid fallow through CRP, and which has been brough back into production after the program ended, has been used to make up any shortfall.
Look, folks, the ethanol vs land vs "We're Gonna Die!!!" debate is old, tired, and dead. The farmers and the commodities market is self-correcting for any potential shortfall. The debate lives because people have no freakin clue about what's actually involved in grain production and how massive that market actually is.
::scratches head::
So you're saying the feds did not mandate that specific and quite large amounts of renewable (ethanol) fuel to be sold within each state, and plenty of states did not make it virtually mandatory in order to comply with said federal rules?
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The ethanol subsidy most definitely contributes to the rising cost of food and other commodities be influencing the demand curve for corn and moving the price higher in the PvsD curve. Pretty basic.
1. Displacement of other crops.
Before the (relatively) recent switchover from MTBE to ethanol as an oxygenator mandated by fed.gov, I recall driving through south/gulf coast Texas with cotton fields as far as the eye could see. No more. Now it is "Corn, corn, corn...nothing but corn!" (to quote Secondhand Lions). Corn also requires more water & fertilizer. Corn has displaced cotton driving down the acreage devoted to cotton and driving up cotton's price. I'll bet dollars to donuts this occurs with food crops, too.
Heck, they've even planted corn around DFW. In-freaking-sanity in a market without subsidy & mandates.
Cotton is just one example of corn displacing other crops that are more suited to the land. Growing corn on corn-unfriendly land requires greater inputs, but with subsidies and mandates, it makes sense for some landowners.
2. Increased fuel costs due to the ethanol requirement.
Ethanol is 10% of the fuel content at the gas pump, but provides less than 10% of the energy of the total volume. It costs more to make ethanol and it costs much more to ship it to a gas station.
3. Ethanol subsidies & mandates drive up the price of corn and makes livestock products (meat, milk, etc.) rise in price.
This is very easy to see in the grocery store, but not the usual inflation stats, because inflation stats do not include fuel & food for some insane reason. A new computer I can live without. Food & transport, not so much.
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The corn used for ethanol is not the corn grown for human consumption. The amount of land dedicated to food corn has not changed.
Brad
That's pretty misleading. It's true that field corn isn't the type of corn we eat when we normally think of corn, but that doesn't mean that field corn is irrelevant in feeding people.
The biggest use of field corn is livestock feed, which eventually feeds people. If you ever eat meat or dairy products then you're in competition with ethanol for your food.
There are also plenty of direct human uses for field corn, such as cornmeal, cereals, corn syrup, starch, and so on.
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This is also why you're seeing all the "throwback" cane sugar sodas. Ethanol production is raising prices on HFCS.
And of course, even if you concede to EVERY counter-claim by the farm/agribiz side of the debate, ethanol is still CRAP fuel for cars, and isn't even a 1:1 break-even net energy gain when you factor in refining, waste-water, and transport.
It needs to be killed.
And the whole rural ma & pa Kettle/farmer/middle-Americana aspects that get tied into the whole debate just help further the sham along.
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Ethanol is welfare for farmers ethanol producers.
FIFY.
When MN mandated gasoline be diluted with ethanol, investigators decided to look into whether or not legislators who pushed for the ban had gotten campaign contributions from Archer-Daniels Midland, one of the LARGEST producers of ethanol at that time.
The correlation between "mandate ethanol" legislators and ADM political contributions was nearly perfect . . .
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You can't leave the farmers out of this dynamic. They bear a major share of the responsibility for the political disaster that is ethanol. Farm politics is at the heart of it, and it's not just ADM and the other ag companies.
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I'd like to see something like this work. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/a-brave-new-world-of-fossil-fuels-on-demand/article1871149/) Until then, I fill up at one of the few places that carries ethanol free fuel. Here's a list of them. (http://pure-gas.org/)
Heh. Looked up gas stations in WA. No wonder I'd noticed better gas milage in both my truck and my wife's Camry when I'd fill up at one particular station.
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The ethanol issue causes a number of consequences not directly visible.
The farmer wants to get the most $$ possible for his work. For a while now "nothing but corn" has been the most profitable. Not rotating crops require higher inputs of fertilizers, higher use of herbicides and pesticides due to both weeds and bugs developing resistance to common chemicals.
The mess is unsubstainable in the long run. How much of a problem it creates before it falls part remains to be seen.
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The we don't eat field corn argument doesn't work. When gas and diesel went to $4 a gallon farmers had higher fuel costs to produce grain obviously. This means higher feed prices, higher meat prices, higher cost to ship meat,, all leading to higher food cost. Then the farmers make it worse by scrambling to put every acre of land into production for ethanol. Thereby holding the price of feed corn higher than it could be. It's the next bubble. Farmers bought way too much equipment to meet the ethanol rush. They have to keep us tied to it now or massive financial aid is going to be needed.
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I think we need Sally Fields' input.
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I think we need Sally Fields' input.
Only after she's drowned in the river.
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Only after she's drowned in the river.
----after she's flown over it in her nun costume .... [tinfoil]
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----after she's flown over it in her nun costume .... [tinfoil]
She was hot! :P
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what happened in Russia when all the crops were diverted? ???
oh yeah. :-X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Famines)
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I think we need Sally Fields' input.
Rendered down for fuel? Rosie O'Donnell would be much more effective.
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Bringing this one back from the dead as it seems ethanol won't die.
Just to sum-up:
1) It reduces Gas Mileage.
2) It costs more to produce.
3) It uses more energy to produce than it does when used.
4) It requires a subsidy (from taxpayers) to produce.
5) It causes gas prices to be higher (see points #2 and #5).
6) It increase food prices (42% of the US corn crop went to Ethanol).
7) The EPA fines oil companies millions of dollars for not using Cellulosic Ethanol even though not one drop of CE has ever been commercially produced.
8) And now they are pushing for E-15 which causes even worse mileage while ruining your engine and fuel lines/tanks.
What's not to love in Washington?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/15/beauprez-epas-renewable-fuel-folly/
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Whoever wrote that story needs to do a LOT better job at lending perspective, and stop using Facebook and the Wayback Machine for their facts.
1) Yes, but only by 1-5 percent, depending on ethanol concentration.
2) Only if you consider the ethanol to be the sole economically valuable result of the production process. (Like looking at gasoline as the only product of crude oil refining)
3) See response #2
4) No, it doesn't. Ethanol is plenty viable in the market without a subsidy of any kind. Vehicle fuel isn't the only market for it by a long shot.
5) See response #1
6) WTF came up with that pile of bovine feces? Uses of corn, 2012/13, Nebraska Corn Board - Ethanol 36%, Feed 27%, Exports 18%, Other processing 12%, Carryout 5%, Exports 2%. And field corn used for ethanol production IS! NOT! THE! SAME! THING! as sweet corn (the kind that us human animals eat). Also the amount of corn we export (sell cheap, or often just give away) and the amount not produced on lands set aside under CRP or shifted to more profitable use exceeds, by some estimates, the amount of corn used in ethanol production. In short, the whole "It-Drives-Up-Food-Prices-OMG-We're-All-Gonna-Die!" argument is so much uneducated alarmist hooey.
7) If your vehicle is less than ten years old then it's already set up to tolerate oxygenated fuels, including those containing ethanol. That argument had some merit back in the early 2000s when it was first proposed, but it's no longer an issue for the VAST majority of motorists. The EPA CE debacle? Completely unrelated. Stupid and decidedly moronic, but unrelated.
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Feed corn used for ethanol is also used as animal food or displaces other kinds of animal food right?
If ethanol isn't -mandated- for use in fuel then lack of demand for that particular market for ethanol for fuel by consumers (because it sucks) will either cause more to be available for booze, lowering booze costs, for animal feed, lowering the cost of meat, or other crops will be grown instead, lowering those crops products costs.
The problem is the mandate, the market should be free on general principles.
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http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10057/04-08-ethanol.pdf
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I filled up with the mandated 10% ethanol garbage we have in Maricopa County and drove around, got 16.9mpg.
I filled up with 100% real gas up in Payson. Drove around, got 18.5mpg.
Vehicle is a 2005 Dodge Ram 1500 SLT with 4.7L V8.
That's a 10% loss of fuel economy, with 10% fake gas.
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I've done the same thing. Non-ethanol gas gives my '97 3.0 L truck 10-12% better mileage depending on the kind of driving.
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http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=AZ
I'm trying to figure out how these guys in the Maricopa County area are able to sell pure gas as this site reports.
I'll spin by a couple of them over the next few days. It's supposedly a $100,000 fine and jail time to deliberately sell non-ethanol gas in Maricopa County.
If they're still pure gas, I'll make an effort to fill up at least half the time at the half dozen or so stations listed in my area.
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) No, it doesn't. Ethanol is plenty viable in the market without a subsidy of any kind. Vehicle fuel isn't the only market for it by a long shot.
Its plenty viable, if its used for anything else but fuel.
6) WTF came up with that pile of bovine feces? Uses of corn, 2012/13, Nebraska Corn Board - Ethanol 36%, Feed 27%, Exports 18%, Other processing 12%, Carryout 5%, Exports 2%. And field corn used for ethanol production IS! NOT! THE! SAME! THING! as sweet corn (the kind that us human animals eat). Also the amount of corn we export (sell cheap, or often just give away) and the amount not produced on lands set aside under CRP or shifted to more profitable use exceeds, by some estimates, the amount of corn used in ethanol production. In short, the whole "It-Drives-Up-Food-Prices-OMG-We're-All-Gonna-Die!" argument is so much uneducated alarmist hooey.
Do you actually do your own shopping? Have you noticed that the price of even the cheapest ground beef is about double what it was just a few years ago?
The corn that we are mandated to burn in our cors is the exact same corn used to feed the animals. Animals=meat.
To make this simple so that anyone can understand- the field corn used for ethanol production is in direct competition with the field corn used to make meat.
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Heh. Looked up gas stations in WA. No wonder I'd noticed better gas milage in both my truck and my wife's Camry when I'd fill up at one particular station.
Meh, Only 5 in california... :'(
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I filled up with the mandated 10% ethanol garbage we have in Maricopa County and drove around, got 16.9mpg.
I filled up with 100% real gas up in Payson. Drove around, got 18.5mpg.
Vehicle is a 2005 Dodge Ram 1500 SLT with 4.7L V8.
That's a 10% loss of fuel economy, with 10% fake gas.
There's only one problem, the math doesn't work. Ethanol energy content is roughly two-thirds that of gasoline. If you replace 10% of the gasoline with ethanol, then you are lowering the energy content of 10% of the total liquid volume by a third. A third of 10% is 3%, so you have a 3% reduction in energy content of 10% ethanol blends vs 100% uncut gasoline. You should see a corresponding 3% reduction in mileage. Your experience showing three times that much indicates something else is amiss, and there are dozens of things that it could be. Heck, it could even be a time of year issue. Crappy high-volatility summer blend gasolines can have less energy content than a winter blend 10% ethanol mix. Unless you have a direct, mile-for-mile, day-for-day, and vehicle-for-vehicle comparison, a blanket claim of efficiency reduction due strictly to the ethanol blended product is pretty shaky at best.
By the way, 18.5 to 16.9 is a reduction of 8.6%, not 10.
To make this simple so that anyone can understand- the field corn used for ethanol production is in direct competition with the field corn used to make meat.
Then let me make it even simpler. The price of corn has about as much to do with beef prices as the price of crude has to do with gasoline prices at the pump (read: very little). Those prices are independently determined by the market. Those of us who grew up in, and are still deeply involved with, the ranching industry can only wish retail beef pricing were as simple and direct as you propose.
Brad
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1) Yes, but only by 1-5 percent, depending on ethanol concentration.
Incorrect.
The "official" claims are for a 3% penalty, but personal experience - and that of colleagues at work - consistently showed more like a 10% penalty.
Used to live in Minnesota, and frequently had to make business trips from the Twin Cities down to New Ulm, about 110 miles each way; normally stayed down there for several days to a week when we were scaling up a new product in the factory. Once the MN legislature mandated alcohol dilution of gas in the Twin Cities, fuel economy dropped. Filling up in the TC and driving down to New Ulm yielded a clear difference from filling up in New Ulm and returning - a difference that didn't show up before the ethanol dilution was mandated.
Oh, and WHY is ethanol mandated? A local MN news station did a little study, and found almost a perfect correlation between legislators who pushed for ethanol dilution of fuel, and legislators who received campaign contributions or jobs for family members from Archer-Daniels Midland, then one of the largest produces of ethanol fuel in the Midwest and possibly the nation. Hmmmm . . . .
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Incorrect.
The "official" claims are for a 3% penalty, but personal experience - and that of colleagues at work - consistently showed more like a 10% penalty.
Used to live in Minnesota, and frequently had to make business trips from the Twin Cities down to New Ulm, about 110 miles each way; normally stayed down there for several days to a week when we were scaling up a new product in the factory. Once the MN legislature mandated alcohol dilution of gas in the Twin Cities, fuel economy dropped. Filling up in the TC and driving down to New Ulm yielded a clear difference from filling up in New Ulm and returning - a difference that didn't show up before the ethanol dilution was mandated.
The energy content of both liquids is known so it's a straight math problem. If the result is different than the math predicts, that means there is something else besides the ethanol to blame.
Guys, I didn't invent the chemistry or the math I just put them to a calculator.
Brad
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that stuff is nasty in small engines.
And as soon as the dictators new EO on ammonium nitrate takes effect, I would bet the price goes way up, as it takes a lot of fertilizer to grow it.
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he use of ethanol in gasoline has increased substan-
tially over the past decade. Currently, most ethanol in the
United States is produced from domestically grown corn,
and the rapid rise in the fuel’s production and usage
means that roughly one-quarter of all corn grown in the
United States is now used to produce ethanol. Since
2006, food prices have also risen more quickly than in
earlier years, affecting federal spending for nutrition pro-
grams (such as school lunches) and the household bud-
gets of individual consumers. The increased use of etha-
nol accounted for about 10 percent to 15 percent of the
rise in food prices between April 2007 and April 2008,
the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates. In
turn, that increase will boost federal spending for the
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP, for-
merly the Food Stamp program) and child nutrition pro-
grams by an estimated $600 million to $900 million in
fiscal year 2009. Last year, the use of ethanol reduced
gasoline consumption in th
e United States by about
4 percent and greenhouse-gas emissions from the trans-
portation sector by less than 1 percen
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he use of ethanol in gasoline has increased substan-
tially over the past decade. Currently, most ethanol in the
United States is produced from domestically grown corn,
and the rapid rise in the fuel’s production and usage
means that roughly one-quarter of all corn grown in the
United States is now used to produce ethanol. Since
2006, food prices have also risen more quickly than in
earlier years, affecting federal spending for nutrition pro-
grams (such as school lunches) and the household bud-
gets of individual consumers. The increased use of etha-
nol accounted for about 10 percent to 15 percent of the
rise in food prices between April 2007 and April 2008,
the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates. In
turn, that increase will boost federal spending for the
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP, for-
merly the Food Stamp program) and child nutrition pro-
grams by an estimated $600 million to $900 million in
fiscal year 2009. Last year, the use of ethanol reduced
gasoline consumption in th
e United States by about
4 percent and greenhouse-gas emissions from the trans-
portation sector by less than 1 percent
That's from a 2009 report using 2008 and prior data. A lot has changed since then.. Updates?
Brad
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http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/01/the-great-ethanol-debate/index.htm
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http://community.cartalk.com/discussion/2285295/big-increase-in-mpg-since-switching-to-ethanol-free-gas
http://www.energytrendsinsider.com/2009/03/07/fuel-efficiency-of-ethanol-in-the-real-world/
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I wonder if we would be better off taking all that field corn and bombing middle east and south west asia countries with it. :O
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The new 15% Ethanol mix is going to wreak havoc on older vehicles and air cooled engines - including motorcycles. My '90 truck isn't going to like it. Likely to void some warranties too.
I've got the carcasses of a few not-so-old air cooled tools that were destroyed by the 10% crap. That diagnosis was confirmed by two different small engine repair companies.
I used to drive a race car powered by a 2 cycle engine. Ran it on pure alcohol. Had to drain & clean the fuel system after every race day, or the alcohol would start eating parts.
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The energy content of both liquids is known so it's a straight math problem. If the result is different than the math predicts, that means there is something else besides the ethanol to blame.
Guys, I didn't invent the chemistry or the math I just put them to a calculator.
Brad
Straight energy content is not fuel mileage. It's just not that simple.
Ethanol needs higher compression to burn efficiently. If you didn't up the turbo boost... you do have a turbo, don't you... you just tossed some of your ethanol out the window.
You also adjusted your injectors to achieve the correct stoichiometric ratio, right? You need different amounts of air to burn different fuels.
Oh, and the ignition timing. You advanced that automatically based on the alcohol content of the fuel, right?
You may have a turbocharged flex-fuel car, so you can answer 'yes' to all of the above. You may not.
BTU/gal != MPG.
Polyethylene has a slightly higher energy/volume (and the same energy/mass) as gasoline. If we're only interested in energy content, shredded milk jugs should give you better MPG than pump gas.
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6) WTF came up with that pile of bovine feces? Uses of corn, 2012/13, Nebraska Corn Board - Ethanol 36%, Feed 27%, Exports 18%, Other processing 12%, Carryout 5%, Exports 2%. And field corn used for ethanol production IS! NOT! THE! SAME! THING! as sweet corn (the kind that us human animals eat). Also the amount of corn we export (sell cheap, or often just give away) and the amount not produced on lands set aside under CRP or shifted to more profitable use exceeds, by some estimates, the amount of corn used in ethanol production. In short, the whole "It-Drives-Up-Food-Prices-OMG-We're-All-Gonna-Die!" argument is so much uneducated alarmist hooey.
Allow me to introduce you to a friend of mine. Opportunity Cost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost), Brad. Brad, Opportunity Cost (http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/OpportunityCost.html).
The land used for Ethanol could, and WOULD, barring Government interference, be used to grow some other crop, likely food. (To say nothing of the fertilizer, pesticides, water, and other inputs into Ethanol corn.)
Does the Government do other things to distort the market and raise the price of food? Of course, its tentacles are in everything. That, however, does not mean we ought to support this stupid Government meddling. It just means we ought to also end those other ones as well.
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Also, Brad, humans don't eat only sweet corn. Your basic corn meal, corn syrup, corn sugar, corn starch, etc., all come from standard field corn.
Only kernel-type corn is sweet corn.
jb
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http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/08/ken_braun_ethanol_night_at_the.html
Ken Braun: Here's why ethanol is a profoundly immoral waste of money
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mygovcost.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F11%2Fcorn-prices-and-percent-ethanol-production-1980-2012.png&hash=12c3d2c8c2fa58edf9d4dec6ca01947e19567353)
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Ethanol’s champions sometimes claim it weans us off foreign oil. Yet a Cornell University ecologist revealed in 2005 that corn ethanol needs 29 percent more fossil fuel energy than the biofuel it produces. Apparently left out of many ethanol PR offensives is that the corn doesn’t grow itself and needs fossil-fueled machines to make the fertilizer, water the crop, take the corn to market, refine it into ethanol, etc …
http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/08/ken_braun_ethanol_night_at_the.html
I have read in many sources in the past that the amount of ethanol produced (measured in BTUs) is roughly 1-1.1:1 with the energy input in the United States. Corn simply isn't a dense enough energy source to be an efficient energy source. Most of the pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking (or outright lying , more likely) come from the success that Brazil has with ethanol production- which relies on sugar cane that gives a much ratio of energy produced vs energy input.
Oh, and WHY is ethanol mandated? A local MN news station did a little study, and found almost a perfect correlation between legislators who pushed for ethanol dilution of fuel, and legislators who received campaign contributions or jobs for family members from Archer-Daniels Midland, then one of the largest produces of ethanol fuel in the Midwest and possibly the nation. Hmmmm . . . .
We actually have dirty rotten s.o.b. politicians in our state that own ethanol plants.
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Ethanol's not a bad fuel, assuming you have a high-compression engine to make use of that 105 octane.
It also doesn't have to come from corn - that's just a carryover from the days of our founding fathers, who supplemented their incomes with corn converted to liquid form on their own estate distilleries.
I'm still considering converting my old Shovelhead Harley to E-85 here because it runs like crap on low-octane pump gas. There are enough E-85 stations in touring range to keep filled up.
I don't like it in my chainsaw, lawnmower, or garden tractor. I do like the fact that my uncle and cousins are getting use out of the land they were formerly paid by the government not to plant.
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I do like the fact that my uncle and cousins are getting use out of the land they were formerly paid by the government not to plant.
:facepalm:
That's trading one .gov caused problem for another.
I'm still considering converting my old Shovelhead Harley to E-85 here because it runs like crap on low-octane pump gas. There are enough E-85 stations in touring range to keep filled up.
That should actually be a pretty easy project- just rejet and reset your idle mix right? Or are there are things that need to be changed out?
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^^^I will be interested to hear if any fuel system parts need to be replaced, like the lines, to stand up to the higher ethanol percentage.
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Yes, all rubber/neoprene/incompatible tubing and hoses in contact with E85 need to be replaced. Gravity feed, so no fuel pump issues, thank goodness.
I think there's an o-ring in the big Keihin carb next to the needle valve that I'll have to swap out for something in Viton, too.
I was tired of screwing around with retarding the spark, thicker head gaskets and octane boost additives, anyway.
Those big domed pistons and hemi combustion chambers really put the squeeze on the fuel/air mix, so 105 is actually a good fit in my particular case.
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I'll have to swap out for something in Viton, too.
That's going to hurt. I've ordered viton o-rings/gaskets for labware/reactors that cost as much as my paycheck, though I'm, sure there was a 100,000% markup involved.
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That's going to hurt. I've ordered viton o-rings/gaskets for labware/reactors that cost as much as my paycheck, though I'm, sure there was a 100,000% markup involved.
Probably markup. I haven't checked the price, but we use viton materials for biodiesel compatibility so its probably not too bad.
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Ethanol will also corrode aluminum.
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Ethanol will also corrode aluminum.
Only at higher concentrations, like E-85. Anodized aluminum no problem.
http://www.ethanolmt.org/switch.html
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Only at higher concentrations, like E-85. Anodized aluminum no problem.
How do non-anodized parts fare? Pistons, heads, intakes, etc?
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How do non-anodized parts fare? Pistons, heads, intakes, etc?
I dunno, lots of cars/trucks in with hundreds of thousands of miles on them running E-10 here in Iowa. We have had E-10 since the late 1970's as an option.
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How do non-anodized parts fare? Pistons, heads, intakes, etc?
I'm not sure it matters if any of those surfaces get etched a little.
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Pistons, heads, and such do not stay in contact for long with the fuel, especially when the engine is not running. Fuel system parts are the ones that suffer. If an engine is left to sit a long time expect to see etching in the cylinder walls too from fuel laying there.
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Probably markup. I haven't checked the price, but we use viton materials for biodiesel compatibility so its probably not too bad.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#o-rings/=o3zf9e
Not cheap but certainly affordable.
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A big OEM is not going to pay McMaster Carr retail prices.
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A big OEM is not going to pay McMaster Carr retail prices.
I thought we were talking about ONE guy replacing ONE o- ring in ONE carb.
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I thought we were talking about ONE guy replacing ONE o- ring in ONE carb.
Buy 100,000 and have plenty of spares :lol:
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Shovelheads don't have much aluminum in them. Possibly just a piston? The cylinders and heads are iron iirc. I be a little more worried about my 88 Evo motor.
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Shovelheads don't have much aluminum in them. Possibly just a piston? The cylinders and heads are iron iirc. I be a little more worried about my 88 Evo motor.
What material are the carbs made from?
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I thought we were talking about ONE guy replacing ONE o- ring in ONE carb.
Then request a sample =D
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What material are the carbs made from?
usually die cast zinc