France's law banning face covering goes into action

[Balog]

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/09/23/french-court-fines-women-for-wearing-face-veils/?mod=google_news_blog

I had always heard this as a ban solely on the niqab and burqua, interesting to see it addresses all facial covering in public.

[Jamie B]

Never did like the French, especially when they banned English words several years ago.

[seeker_two]

This'll certainly make Halloween more interesting....

[AJ Dual]

Meh...

The libertarian in me is disgusted.

The libertarianism-is-not-a-cultural-suicide-pact, and pro-Western Civ side of me is in lukewarm agreement, or maybe just feeling some respect for France showing some sort of balls as taking a stand against islamification. Even if it probably won't do any good.

[MicroBalrog]

France: now not entirely different from the grounds of Al-Azhar Mosque?

[zahc]

what about beards and long hair? Are full-face helmets allowed?

[longeyes]

Maybe they're tired of their public streets being co-opted as outdoors mosques?

[Pharmacology]

I thought that all this hubbub that's rubbing people the wrong way wasn't even really such a huge deal?
Doesn't it affect only a minute percentage of France's population?

I wonder what the french translation for "HURR DURRRRR"  is/

[longeyes]

Only those who use streets.  Not to worry, Islam is your friend.

[Pharmacology]

Only those who use streets.  Not to worry, Islam is your friend.

Just looked it up.  French Interior ministry says this will probably affect about 2,000 women.

[MechAg94]

Meh...

The libertarian in me is disgusted.

The libertarianism-is-not-a-cultural-suicide-pact, and pro-Western Civ side of me is in lukewarm agreement, or maybe just feeling some respect for France showing some sort of balls as taking a stand against islamification. Even if it probably won't do any good.

So if some women are being forced/intimidated into wear head gear (but not by the govt), where does libertarianism stand on that?

[longeyes]

This isn't about burqas or occupied streets, it's about a liberal culture that is starting to feel mortally endangered by its own folly.

[De Selby]

How does a woman wearing a headscarf endanger liberty???

This law affected everyone in France - they now have their government telling them which displays of religion they can wear on their own bodies.  A burqa ban is no different from banning crosses, Jesus t shirts, or yarmulkes.

The idea that Muslims pose any threat to "western liberty" whatever is a testament to our inability to think rationally whenever race is on the table.  That goes for conservatives as well leftists.

[longeyes]

It's not about race, it's about unreason.

Muslims pose a threat to liberty when they attain critical mass in a culture and begin imposing their values.  Our concept of individual liberty is antithetical to Islam's basic principles. 

[De Selby]

It's not about race, it's about unreason.

Muslims pose a threat to liberty when they attain critical mass in a culture and begin imposing their values.  Our concept of individual liberty is antithetical to Islam's basic principles. 

Who exactly is the "our" in there?  There are no muslim French??? And why would it be ok to impose your values on them, which is what happened here?

Can anyone not see the Orwellian irony in limiting religious freedom under the banner of protecting liberty?

"to preserve religious freedom, we have to ban some religions comrades!"

[MicroBalrog]

Just looked it up.  French Interior ministry says this will probably affect about 2,000 women.

But Pharma! Tee-vee told me there are millions of burka-clad Muslims set to devour the French Republic!

[Perd Hapley]

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/09/23/french-court-fines-women-for-wearing-face-veils/?mod=google_news_blog

I had always heard this as a ban solely on the niqab and burqua, interesting to see it addresses all facial covering in public.

Which seems to somewhat counter the religious freedom issues. I kinda wonder how cold it gets in France, though.

[Pharmacology]

But Pharma! Tee-vee told me there are millions of burka-clad Muslims set to devour the French Republic!

Everyone knows that if they bite you you become infected!

[longeyes]

Who exactly is the "our" in there?  There are no muslim French??? And why would it be ok to impose your values on them, which is what happened here?

Can anyone not see the Orwellian irony in limiting religious freedom under the banner of protecting liberty?

"to preserve religious freedom, we have to ban some religions comrades!"

Because their "freedom" necessitates your lack of freedom.  As if you didn't already know.

[mtnbkr]

Because their "freedom" necessitates your lack of freedom.  As if you didn't already know.

Seems to me this law, while targeting eeevul muslims, actually detracts from everyone's freedom.  Just because you don't wear a regulated headcovering doesn't mean you might not want to in the future.  Just like even though I don't currently own a suppressor doesn't mean the suppressor laws don't affect me negatively.

Chris

[longeyes]

As I said...it's not about burqas or blocked streets, those are just the outward signs of the inner national anxiety.

[dogmush]

As I said...it's not about burqas or blocked streets, those are just the outward signs of the inner national anxiety.

This might very well be true, I know next to nothing about France's internal issues. (Didn't we have a french guy on here?)

But I will point out that historically "National Anxiety" almost never leads to good laws, or liberty.

[longeyes]

Of course, I mean France's (national anxiety), not ours.

You're right.  Anything springing from fear or anxiety or ignorance or evil intent is likely to produce bad social consequences.  My point is that the French have taken romanticism, confusion, and guilt and suffused it into immigration policies that are now eating away at the very heart of their society and culture.  What does it mean to be French?  This is what more and more French are asking, although they may well be asking it a bit too late.

[Balog]

But Pharma! Tee-vee told me there are millions of burka-clad Muslims set to devour the French Republic!

Actually I believe the point is to prevent the further radicalization of the millions of Muslim immigrants. Considering that France still remembers the invasion of Europe during Islam's expansion it's rather understandable...

[MicroBalrog]

Because their "freedom" necessitates your lack of freedom.  As if you didn't already know.

I must have skipped the part where Muslims were a monolithical cultural block with the only difference between radical muslims and regular muslims being one of degree during my History of Islam class.