Author Topic: Red Cross  (Read 1550 times)

grampster

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Red Cross
« on: January 15, 2007, 08:32:22 AM »
Did anyone hear the entire story on the Red Cross changing their logo from a cross to square?  I only heard a piece of it, but it sounded like they were not going to use the cross because they didn't want to offend anyone. 

I'll bet the Red Crescent or the Jewish version is not going to change.

If what I think I heard is true, I will NEVER give those folks a penny again!!

Anyone have the complete story on this?
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TarpleyG

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2007, 08:39:08 AM »
News to me but if there is anything to it, I'm with you.

Greg

Sindawe

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2007, 08:43:53 AM »
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16598697/

Quote
Red Cross debuts red crystal symbol
Symbol will protect relief workers, was approved over Muslim objections
The Associated Press
Updated: 9:28 p.m. PT Jan 12, 2007

GENEVA - The “Red Crystal” debuts Sunday as an emblem that can be used to protect relief workers, part of an agreement for Israel’s admission to the Red Cross movement after more than half a century of exclusion.

During decades of stalemate, stemming from the Jewish state’s reluctance to display a cross or crescent, some countries had feared that adding a red Star of David to the list of protective emblems would open the door to proliferation of other such symbols and undermine the recognition that any emblem had to protect humanitarian workers.

But it was unlikely that the crystal, a red square frame standing on one corner, would be widely displayed in the near future.

A spokeswoman for the International Committee of the Red Cross conceded Friday it will take time before the crystal will be widely enough known that medics on the battlefield will be able to work under it without fear of being targeted.

“It’s legally now a protective emblem, but there’s a lot of work to be done for it to be in reality and concretely a protective emblem because it needs to be known in the field and respected,” the spokeswoman, Antonella Notari, told The Associated Press.

Israel’s rescue society, Magen David Adom, sought membership in 1949 but objected to using either the cross or the crescent that medics on the battlefield have displayed for more than a century. The Red Cross movement refused to admit the group’s symbol, a red Star of David.


The  crystal was approved over Muslim objections in a hard-fought diplomatic conference in December 2005. The treaty authorizing the new symbol is entering into force six months after Switzerland and Norway became the first two countries to ratify it.

“We are pleased they created especially for us a new symbol that will be accepted the world over,” said Dr. Noam Yifrach, chairman of the executive committee of Magen David Adom. The Israeli organization puts the red Star of David inside the crystal’s frame.

Crystal can be used by anyone
Any national society in the international Red Cross movement can use the crystal if it wants. Military medics also can display it instead of the cross or crescent.

In combat, the crystal is supposed to stand alone, but for fundraising and identification purposes at home a society could put its own emblem inside the frame.

Israel, which became a member of the Red Cross last June after a meeting of the movement cleared the way for the new symbol, will still be able to use the star on ambulances inside Israel.

The red cross on a white background — the reversal of colors of the Swiss flag — was adopted as the emblem of the movement when it was founded in 1863 by Swiss humanitarians trying to care for battlefield casualties who otherwise would have been left to suffer.

But the symbol unintentionally reminded Muslims of the Christian crusaders, and they began using a red crescent in the 19th century.

Notari said the intent behind the red crystal was to underscore the universality of the humanitarian movement and enhance its credibility as a neutral party.

“Ultimately, the goal is to improve protection for all those who need it, be they beneficiaries of humanitarian aid or persons striving to deliver it,” she said.

What puzzles me is why some Muslems objected to the crystal?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2007, 09:18:47 AM »
Being a Christian, I'm a little annoyed by the Christian cross being used for so many things that no longer have much connection to what that symbol represents.  I.e., the Red Cross, the Swiss.

If they're not ministering to people's spiritual need for the Good News of the cross, they probably should find a new symbol. 
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Sindawe

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2007, 09:28:29 AM »
Fistful, as I understand it the cross used by the Red Cross and the Swiss is not the Christian cross, but the same image as used for the addition symbol in mathematics.  I don't associate that symbol with Christianity, but rather the image where the lower arm is longer than the other three.

vs.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2007, 09:41:14 AM »
Sindawe, there are many different "crosses" that are used to represent the cross on which Jesus was crucified.  Some of them have small cross-members at the top, for instance.  I'd be surprised if the Swiss and Red Crosses were not originally meant as Christian symbols, but then I could be wrong. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2007, 09:57:29 AM »
Doesn't a crystal as a symbol tend to have pagan or witchcraft overtones? 
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Sindawe

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2007, 10:06:01 AM »
Quote
Some of them have small cross-members at the top, for instance.

Greek and Russian Orthodox IIRC, which I think may have been derived from the device that Roman and Byzantine guards used on their shields after Constantine declared Christianity to by the state religion of the Roman Empire.  But the "cross" has been in use long before Christianity came into being, in diverse forms.  Look at the sun wheels found in Pagan Europe, the anhk used in ancient Egypt or the hooked cross (aka swastika) used in ancient Greek, Roman and modern Buddhist culture.

Quote
Doesn't a crystal as a symbol tend to have pagan or witchcraft overtones?

Natural crystals themselves have some significance to some Pagan groups and individuals, but not all.  Off hand I don't recall the crystal symbol being used by the Red Cross and other humanitarian organizations having any significance to Pagans.  But then, I'm not a student of ALL the western and non-western pagan faiths, only those I've studied and the one I practice myself.
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MechAg94

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2007, 10:07:11 AM »
Either way, I doubt the Red Crystal will go over too well with a lot of people.  I give to the Salvation Army anyway.
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K Frame

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2007, 10:10:51 AM »
I suspect the rag heads were objecting either becuase they thought it would make it easy for Isralies to gain more access, or they simply wanted everyone to adopt the red crescent.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2007, 10:13:09 AM »
They aren't doing away with the Cross and Crescent, this is just door 3 for those who don't want to drive ambulences painted with the other two symbols.

The Cross was the Christian cross, the same cross on Switzerland's flag, just colors reversed.  When it came about, Europe wasn't quite so a-religious and people still equated the symbol with peace, hope and charity; having it associated with Switzerland emphasized the neutrality of the organization.
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HankB

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2007, 10:24:24 AM »
I don't support the Red Cross anyway . . . my father and two uncles, WWII vets all, had nothing but contempt and a disdain bordering on hatred for the Red Cross. More recently, the Red Cross was caught diverting funds collected for a specific cause to some other cause (that's fraud!), and there still hasn't been a full and accurate accounting for everything that was donated after 9/11.

I support the Salvation Army instead.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2007, 10:30:30 AM »
I don't support the Red Cross anyway . . . my father and two uncles, WWII vets all, had nothing but contempt and a disdain bordering on hatred for the Red Cross. More recently, the Red Cross was caught diverting funds collected for a specific cause to some other cause (that's fraud!), and there still hasn't been a full and accurate accounting for everything that was donated after 9/11.

I support the Salvation Army instead.

Red Cross nurses wouldn't put out?

I know the Red Cross walked a tightrope of neutrality to retain access to Nazi POW camps and some didn't always make it clear who was the side "in the right".
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2007, 11:32:50 AM »
Quote
But the "cross" has been in use long before Christianity came into being, in diverse forms. 


That's not the point at all.  The first point is that the Swiss flag is, apparently, derived from the Christian symbol.  And the Red Cross flag is derived from that.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Switzerland

The second point is that, whatever it may have represented in other times and places, cross shapes are generally associated with Christianity in much of the world today.  Hence the Muslim insistence on using a red crescent. 

What I'm saying is that when the organization or country is no longer discernibly Christian, it's probably time to drop the outmoded symbolism. 
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2007, 11:39:44 AM »
How about 2 or 3 red concentric circles.  Maybe with a dot in the middle?

If the Red Cross ever dropped the cross, their donations, in this country at least, would plummet.  Someone else would need to step in as the "blood people".
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garyk/nm

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2007, 11:58:47 AM »
How about 2 or 3 red concentric circles.  Maybe with a dot in the middle.


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tellner

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2007, 01:10:59 PM »
Hey Mike, how about not calling Muslims ragheads unless you also call Jews kikes, Italians dagos, Blacks niggers and Catholics ring-kissing baby rapers. They're all at about the same level - not fit for civilized company.

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2007, 01:20:22 PM »
Quote
What I'm saying is that when the organization or country is no longer discernibly Christian, it's probably time to drop the outmoded symbolism.
I'm with Fistful on this.
Quote
Hey Mike, how about not calling Muslims ragheads unless you also call Jews kikes, Italians dagos, Blacks niggers and Catholics ring-kissing baby rapers. They're all at about the same level - not fit for civilized company.
While agree with Todd on this, the Muslim community could do themselves a big favor by not being anti Jew and anti Christian. This is especially true in Muslim countries where it is not only practiced but enshrined in their laws.

grampster

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Re: Red Cross
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2007, 01:43:10 PM »
When I was a kid, I watched my dad unceremoniously tell someone soliciting from the Red Cross to get off our property.  He had a bad taste in his mouth about that organization from WWII. 

I have never supported them, now that I think about it.  I have always sent donations to the Salvation Army.  I guess my main point today is that I'm getting pretty sick and tired of the West having to respond to requirements of Islam when our religious or cultural mores' are held in disdain by some factions within Islam.
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