Well, at least Bush is out of there...

[lone_gunman]

Harriet Myers is a non issue, without her we would not have gotten Sam Alito.

 
I disagree.  By nominating Harriet Myers initially, Bush made himself look more stupid than usual not only to liberals, but also to conservatives.  Thankfully, he got his head on straight eventually and nominated Alito, but conservatives were freaking out initially over the Myers nomination.  It cost Bush conservative confidence and support to make such a dumb nomination.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Nominating Harriet Meyers was a brilliant play.  It made Alito's nomination sail right through, which was the goal all along.

[lone_gunman]

Nominating Harriet Meyers was a brilliant play.  It made Alito's nomination sail right through, which was the goal all along.

Thats very funny

[seeker_two]

A partial list of Bush mistakes that are inarguable:

Supported renewal of AWB
Signed Patriot Act into law
Actively campaigned for, and signed Medicare Reform (ie, the prescription benefit)
Presided over the largest increases in social spending since the Great Society
Created multiple new federal bureaucracies, thus increasing greatly the size and scope of the federal government
Signed Campaign Finance Reform into law
Tried to nominate Harriet Myers to the Supreme Court
Support Amnesty for Illegal Immigrants

....and don't forget letting China have one of our advanced Navy surveilance planes in his first year in office. At least Clinton got PAID when he sent secret tech to them.... 

[Waitone]

He followed his supreme court nomination with an attempt to sell 7 ports (later shown to be 20+) to a Dubai  company linked to the government. 

And my personal favorite he adamantly refused to listen to the concerns of the taxpayer and failed to do anything substantive about the Mexican border with the US.  As a corollary he engaged in a malicious prosecution of two border patrol agents which had the effect of intimidating everyone else trying to do an honest job.  Faced with a wide ranging rebellion against his failure to do anything about the border, he went into a four corners defense by making a lot of motions about building a fence but actually accomplishing nothing.

Bush did a lot right.  He was dead wrong on the border.

[MechAg94]

....and don't forget letting China have one of our advanced Navy surveilance planes in his first year in office. At least Clinton got PAID when he sent secret tech to them.... 

Are you seriously counting that as a Bush mistake?  I hope you are joking.  A Chinese fighter pilot runs his jet into one of our planes and Bush is blamed? 

On nukular energy, a year or two back there were funds and permits issued for 10 or 12 new nuclear reactors or expansions.  I have no idea how long those will take to materialize.  The South Texas Nuke plant has plans to double its size. 

[Gewehr98]

....and don't forget letting China have one of our advanced Navy surveilance planes in his first year in office. At least Clinton got PAID when he sent secret tech to them.... 

Having known and trained with some of the crew on that EP-3, that's pretty darned lame, Seeker.

Reconnaissance missions are just a walk in the park, so if and when you personally go sign up to do them via Navy or Air Force platforms, remind them that you just don't want any extra risk. (Wish they'd told me that when I was doing it for a living...) 

The fact they got that injured bird on the ground in one piece is nothing short of phenomenal, regardless of which runway they landed it on.

They fared much better than the Chinese F-8 pilot who initiated the "thump" maneuver. 

But it's ok, GWB probably told the MiGs where to intercept the EP-3, right?    

[seeker_two]

Are you seriously counting that as a Bush mistake? 

Yes.  He basically left the Chinese to crawl all over that plane and its technology for months without even a sanction (political, diplomatic, or economic) or harsh language--much less any attempt to "secure" it. It was no different than the Powers/U2 incident....and our response was far stronger then.

In fact, Bush pretty well ignored the Chinese threat for the last eight years while they continued to build up their military with technology they got from us. Do a search for "supermagnets" (like the ones we use in our JDAMS) and look at who allowed China to move their manufacture out of the US....

[Gewehr98]

WTF?

That Aries II was forced down on the Hainan airfield by a hotshot MiG pilot who initiated a thump maneuver and failed, getting himself killed and almost doing the same to the 20+ souls onboard the EP-3.  The aircraft commander had the choice of that, or ditching that seriously overweight version of the Orion into the South China Sea - not a fun prospect regardless of how well it can be done in an Airbus 320 within sight of land. 

Do you even understand how many reconnaissance operations are flown in a given timeframe by the U.S. military in that neck of the woods?  Just a few years ago, (2003) an RC-135 was scrambled against by a North Korean MiG, and the back-seaters were listening to the MiG pilot repeatedly requesting permission from his controllers to open fire. For the record, the North Koreans aren't as friendly, stable or tolerant as the Chinese. Again, recce sorties are not just a little trip down to 7-11 for a Slurpee.

We used to carry thermite grenades on our sorties in the event we were forced down, but that was replaced by Dash One checklist procedures and equipment showing how to quickly destroy classified in an emergency situation.  That EP-3 crew was busy as hell destroying hard drives, tapes, zeroing out waypoints, everything on the way to that forced landing as the pilot, co-pilot, and flight engineer tried to keep it all together on the way down.  The Chinese didn't get much in the way of a trophy.  The entire community was thoroughly briefed and additional training initiated as a result of the EP-3 crew's experiences. That's part of the curriculum now, just as similar info is integrated whenever an incident occurs, including the USAF EC-121 that was shot down by the North Koreans many years ago.

It's bullshit to say that George W. gift-wrapped that EP-3 for the Chinese.  If I could reach out through this cable modem and bitch-slap you, I would. It's pretty darned easy to armchair-quarterback something like that, but if you haven't been there and done that, I'd seriously suggest talking about something else. Recce ops against China/North Korea/Russia have been going on for years before the last administration, and will continue in the current administration - I guarantee that. The information is too valuable not to risk it, and if you want to know what's going on with a given country's military buildup, are you going to wait for it to appear in the world edition of the Beijing People's Daily News, or are you going to send a package or three in harm's way to check it out? Nor was it the first or last time a Chinese/Nork/Soviet/Russian fighter intercepted an EP-3/RC-135/WC-135/E-3 in that neck of the woods.  It was, however, the first time that the intercepting fighter tried an intimidating manuever, botched it, killed himself, and nearly killed the other crew.   

"Ignored the threat".  Gawd, that's comedy gold, right there.  We knew what the threat was, and we got briefed before every sortie. You might not have gotten the memo, but we sure's hell did. Wang Wei (aka, "Wrong Way" ever since he removed himself from the gene pool), however, decided that he was going to try remodeling his Chinese MiG copy that day, and paid for his lack of judgement.

[doczinn]

FWIW, I think the objection is with actions after the plane was forced down.

[Gewehr98]

That's something which had been hashed and re-hashed in many departments immediately after the incident.

We were on a recce moratorium as soon as it happened, and were all ears waiting to see how it would escalate. We were out of business unless we were allowed to fly there again. No fly = no collection of info. 

So it boiled down to the White House vs. the State Department vs. National Security Advisor vs. every other player - what to do? 

Start a war?  No.

U.N. Demarche?  No.

Back-channel negotiations?  Might work.

Cooling-off period?  Sure.

Back off on sorties for a while as a show of good faith?  Yup.

We were joking in my squadron about buying a couple truckloads of spare computer parts for later resale if things escalated, because the Chinese would cut us off.  That was just one aspect of the pissing contest we could potentially enter over the whole EP-3 incident.  There were others - boy, howdy, were there others!   

[seeker_two]

FWIW, I think the objection is with actions after the plane was forced down.

Quite....the aircrew did the best they could, but Bush (as his first executive crisis) fumbled the ball in the aftermath...while I don't believe that he arranged for the Chinese to gain access to that plane, the way he capitulated to the Chinese in a situation that was clearly their fault ended up having the same result....

We were on a recce moratorium as soon as it happened, and were all ears waiting to see how it would escalate. We were out of business unless we were allowed to fly there again. No fly = no collection of info.  

Cooling-off period?  Sure.

Back off on sorties for a while as a show of good faith?  Yup.

Great plan, George.... 

We were joking in my squadron about buying a couple truckloads of spare computer parts for later resale if things escalated, because the Chinese would cut us off.

Hence the point about the supermagnets....kinda hard to fight a war when an unfriendly country is supplying you with all your high-tech weapons.... 

If I could reach out through this cable modem and bitch-slap you, I would.

Well.....at least you said it politely, Mr. APS..... 

[HankB]

. . . We used to carry thermite grenades on our sorties in the event we were forced down, but that was replaced by Dash One checklist procedures and equipment showing how to quickly destroy classified in an emergency situation . . .

Are these procedures more effective than thermite grenades?

Couldn't they be used in addition to thermite grenades, rather than in place of . . .?

I'm sorry, but it's not clear to me how letting them get their hands on wiped drives or shorted electronics is better security than allowing them to examine a melted puddle of slag . . .

[Waitone]

Just off hand I'd be hesitant to touch off a thermite grenade in flight.  That said, alternative means of destruction are appropriate.

[Beagle]

Federal per-household spending saw a near-record increase during the GWB administration. It can be reasonably claimed that the cost of our federal government increased more than 10 percent in the past eight years. On that basis alone I consider Bush to be one of the worst presidents in recent memory.

[Nitrogen]

After 8 years of poor leadership at least we are done with him... only problem is I think Obama is going to make the Bush Presidency look like the good ole days.

I think he'll do OK.  Certainly  I do not agree with many of the things he believes in, but he's thoughtful and intelligent.  I don't think he's an ideologue; and will not destroy this country the way many claim.  I do think our 2nd amendment rights are in danger to some degree for instance.  I think we'd have been far worse off with Hillary, who IS an ideologue.

But then again, it's just my opinion.  I've been wrong.  I could be, again!

[lone_gunman]

I think Nitrogen is likely correct.  Since election, Obama has actually moved to the right.  Lets hope he continues to move right.  The Gitmo closing is a bone he is throwing to supporters that will accomplish nothing, even if it ever actually closes.

[Beagle]

My opinion of Obama has very slightly improved in the last few days. Has made some choices of which I approve, including pay freezes for some government officials, closing Gitmo, and calling for examination of federal expenditures for programs which have outlived their usefulness, if they ever had any.

There are those who are unwilling to even consider the possibility of positives from this administration, and I suppose there are those who think Gitmo should remain open, federal government employees don't earn enough money, and no government programs should be shuttered. The rest of us should probably keep an open mind, at least for a while. Obama may indeed be a disaster, but we should probably let him prove it first.

[lone_gunman]

Obama may indeed be a disaster, but we should probably let him prove it first.

Thats pretty much how I feel also.  I voted against him, and am afraid of him based on his past performance.  But I really think he has moved to the right since election.  This is hopefully a sign that he does not necessarily believe in the liberal agenda as much as he believes in his own personal advancement.

I know if I was a liberal and really wanting "change", I would not be happy with Obama right now.

[Beagle]

I agree with you. He ran on a platform with which I disagreed almost entirely. Then he got elected and starting acting, dare I say it, like a leader. If the pattern holds, he may end up being an effective and useful president. The odds are still against it, mind you...

Oh, and I just checked my safe and my guns are still there. So the most fanatical of the gun owners have already been proved wrong. 

[grislyatoms]

I watched 60,000 people attend Obama's rally here. I had to move my way through them to leave work.

They will become disillusioned, then incensed. All over, not just here.

Things are going to get ugly, I fear.

I guess mark me as one of the 'tards getting in on the ground floor.

 

[Waitone]

Since election, Obama has actually moved to the right.  Lets hope he continues to move right.

Be verwy verwy careful.  President Obama is listening politely to some of the opposition.  He even says non-radical things from time to time.  We are told he appears to be moving toward the center.  Yet he nominates for his cabinet and other high level positions people who are from the hard left extending to lunatic fringe.

Watch what President Obama does, not what he says.  His hiring policy falls into the "What he does" category. 

This dude will do a shuck and jive with America by talking a moderate / centrist game and regulating from the hard left.