Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: WLJ on October 19, 2019, 11:10:45 PM
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Add another to the sunk WW-II carriers found
Hopefully they'll find the Akagi, Soryu and Hiryu soon since they should be in the same general area, although Hiryu should be a bit further to the west.
USS Yorktown was found some years ago
Deep-sea explorers find wreck of Japanese Second World War aircraft carrier sunk in pivotal Battle of Midway
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/rv-petrel-battle-midway-kaga-wreck-aircraft-carrier-ww2-paul-allen-a9161481.html
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The have announced that they think they found Akagi this weekend.
2 more to find.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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How long until someone comes along and mine them for pre atomic bomb steel.
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The have announced that they think they found Akagi this weekend.
2 more to find.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/21/humbling-wreckage-of-japanese-ships-from-battle-of-midway-found-in-pacific
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How long until someone comes along and mine them for pre atomic bomb steel.
The Midway wrecks are pretty deep, 18,000ft or so, I would think too deep to be worth the effort that would be required.
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Akagi
(https://storage.googleapis.com/afs-prod/media/b612b13cf7254a91a81224b6953b57c2/1000.jpeg)
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Amazingly intact for where it is an what it went through to get there.
Brad
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Just poking around a little on it. Kinda surprising fact: Yamamoto was its first commander.
Service record
Part of: First Air Fleet (Kido Butai)
Commanders:
Isoroku Yamamoto (1928–29)
Ryūnosuke Kusaka (1939–40)
Kiichi Hasegawa (1941–42)
Taijiro Aoki (1942)
Operations: Second Sino-Japanese War
World War II, Pacific War:
Attack on Pearl Harbor
Invasion of Rabaul
Bombing of Darwin
Invasion of Java
Indian Ocean raid
Battle of Midway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Akagi
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How long until someone comes along and mine them for pre atomic bomb steel.
I saw an article that claimed salvaging WWII warships was "illegal" since they were "sacred war graves."
Since many/most of these wrecks are in international waters, how "off limits" they are probably depends on what country the salvage operation is based in.
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I believe that by international admiralty law warships, even those sunk in international waters, remain the property of the nation that they served. I think that's a fairly recent thing, though, in large part fueled by the discovery of a Russian ship in Japanese waters in the 1980s... Supposedly it was carrying billions in gold when it was sunk during the Russo-Japanese war. Both the Japanese and Russians claimed rights to it, and I THINK that finally kicked off some treaty movement in the late 1980s/early 1990s.
I'm pretty sure, though, that the US claims all sunken US ships, no matter where they are located, as US property and under jurisdiction of US law.
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Blow-by-blow, bomb-by-bomb attack and scuttling (ordered by Yamamoto) of the Akagi:
https://warwater.blogspot.com/2015/05/sinking-of-akagi.html
Selected ("IJN" = "Imperial Japanese Navy"):
At 10:29 Captain Aoki ordered the ship's magazines flooded. The forward magazines were promptly flooded, but not the aft magazines because of valve damage, likely caused by the near miss aft. The ship's main water pump appears to have been damaged, greatly hindering firefighting efforts. On the upper hangar deck, at 10:32 damage control teams attempted to control the spreading fires by employing the one-shot CO2 fire-suppression system. Whether the system functioned or not is unclear but, regardless, the burning aviation fuel proved impossible to control, and serious fires began to advance deeper into the interior of the ship. At 10:40 additional damage caused by the rear near-miss made itself known when the ship's rudder jammed 30 degrees to starboard during an evasive maneuver.
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At 04:50 on 5 June, Yamamoto ordered Akagi scuttled, saying to his staff, "I was once the captain of Akagi, and it is with heartfelt regret that I must now order that she be sunk." Destroyers Arashi, Hagikaze, Maikaze, and Nowaki each fired one torpedo into the carrier and she sank, bow first, at 05:20 at 30°30′N 178°40′W. Two hundred and sixty-seven men of the ship's crew were lost, the fewest of any of the Japanese fleet carriers lost in the battle. The loss of Akagi and the three other IJN carriers at Midway, comprising two thirds of Japan's total number of fleet carriers and the experienced core of the First Air Fleet, was a crucial strategic defeat for Japan and contributed significantly to Japan's ultimate defeat in the war. In an effort to conceal the defeat, Akagi was not immediately removed from the Navy's registry of ships, instead being listed as "unmanned" before finally being struck from the registry on 25 September 1942
It's worth reading the full bomb-by-bomb description. Many American aviators lost their lives in beyond-brave attacks.
They're down there, too, you know.
Terry, 230RN
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Selected ("IJN" = "Imperial Japanese Navy"):
Kind of a side note
While IJN & HIJMS (His Imperial Japanese Majesty's Ship) are commonly used prefixes in books and modern discussion forums for WW-II era Japanese ships today they didn't actual have officially issued prefixes at the time like there was/is with the US Navy (USS) and British Navy (HMS) so the ships were usually referred to merely as The _______. The same goes for the German Kriegsmarine where DKM (Deutsche Kriegsmarine) is in common used today.
Modern Japan does on the other hand uses JDF (Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force) officially.
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I once looked up the various maritime designations and had to laugh at it several times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_prefix#Generic_(merchant_navy)_prefixes
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I've seen any number of speculations online as to why the wooden flight decks are gone...
Uhm... because the decks were pierced by multiple bombs, causing catastrophic fires on the hangar decks among the fueled and rearming planes...
What didn't burn off tended to get blown off.
There's some interesting footage of the BIG explosion that finally doomed Lexington at Coral Sea, and in the aftermath of it you can see clouds of small objects raining down and into the water... basically splintered flight deck.
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Hopefully they'll find the Akagi, Soryu and Hiryu soon since they should be in the same general area, although Hiryu should be a bit further to the west.
Quoting myself here
Make that to the north
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Japan/IJN/rep/Midway/Nagumo/Chart-2.jpg
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Link to RV Petrel's FB page
Lots of photos and links
https://www.facebook.com/rvpetrel/
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Kaga in 3D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA1fjovmH9g
Akagi in 3D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biPCDsPP1fw
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Kaga in 3D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA1fjovmH9g
Akagi in 3D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biPCDsPP1fw
Wow!
I knew they were built up on cruiser or battleship hulls, but I never realized just how high above the top pf the original hull the flights decks were. I'm surprised they didn't just capsize of their own accord as soon as they left the harbor.
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All planes are stored ON DECK? No elevators? How do they land? Where are the aresting cables?
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All planes are stored ON DECK? No elevators? How do they land? Where are the aresting cables?
Flight deck arrangements
Akagi and Kaga were completed with three superimposed flight decks, the only carriers ever to be designed so. The British carriers converted from "large light cruisers", Glorious, Courageous, and Furious, each had two flight decks, but there is no evidence that the Japanese copied the British model. It is more likely that it was a case of convergent evolution to improve launch and recovery cycle flexibility by allowing simultaneous launch and recovery of aircraft.[10] Akagi's main flight deck was 190.2 meters (624 ft 0 in) long and 30.5 meters (100 ft) wide,[11] her middle flight deck (beginning right in front of the bridge) was only 15 meters (49 ft 3 in) long and her lower flight deck was 55.02 meters (180 ft 6 in) long. The utility of her middle flight deck was questionable as it was so short that only some lightly loaded aircraft could use it, even in an era when the aircraft were much lighter and smaller than during World War II.[12] The upper flight deck sloped slightly from amidships toward the bow and toward the stern to assist landings and takeoffs for the underpowered aircraft of that time.[13]
Akagi on trials off the coast of Iyo, 17 June 1927, with all three flight decks visible
As completed, the ship had two main hangar decks and a third auxiliary hangar, giving a total capacity of 60 aircraft. The third and lowest hangar deck was used only for storing disassembled aircraft. The two main hangars opened onto the middle and lower flight decks to allow aircraft to take off directly from the hangars while landing operations were in progress on the main flight deck above. The upper and middle hangar areas totaled about 80,375 square feet (7,467.1 m2), the lower hangar about 8,515 square feet (791.1 m2). No catapults were fitted. Her forward aircraft lift was offset to starboard and 11.8 by 13 meters (38 ft 9 in × 42 ft 8 in) in size. Her aft lift was on the centerline and 12.8 by 8.4 meters (42 ft 0 in × 27 ft 7 in). The aft elevator serviced the upper flight deck and all three hangar decks. Her arresting gear was an unsatisfactory British longitudinal system used on the carrier Furious that relied on friction between the arrester hook and the cables. The Japanese were well aware of this system's flaws, as it was already in use on their first carrier, Hōshō, but had no alternatives available when Akagi was completed. It was replaced during the ship's refit in 1931 with a Japanese-designed transverse cable system with six wires and that was replaced in turn before Akagi began her modernization in 1935 by the Kure Model 4 type (Kure shiki 4 gata). There was no island superstructure when the carrier was completed; the carrier was commanded from a space below the forward end of the upper flight deck.[12][14] The ship carried approximately 150,000 US gallons (570,000 l) of aviation fuel for her embarked aircraft.[15]
As originally completed, Akagi carried an air group of 28 Mitsubishi B1M3 torpedo bombers, 16 Nakajima A1N fighters and 16 Mitsubishi 2MR reconnaissance aircraft.[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Akagi
They had hanger decks, also 3 flight decks....
bob
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All planes are stored ON DECK? No elevators? How do they land? Where are the aresting cables?
The planes as shown in the 3d models are as they would be positioned on the flight deck to launch a strike. You can make out the arresting wires/system on the deck under the planes. The elevators to the hanger(s) decks can also be made out.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Akagi
also 3 flight decks....
bob
As originally built they had 3 flight decks, both were rebuilt with a single ship length flight deck, thus also increasing hanger space, in the late 30s.
When originally converted to carriers you got to remember no one was really sure at the time what a carrier should look like. The Americans were the exceptions with the Lexington conversions in getting it, mostly, right on the first go with their Washington Treaty conversions.
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Akagi's hanger decks. Note the three elevators which BTW were double decked.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVA21Xv9.png&hash=903a158dc1f5f9200fb3d02297a065f2967e6688)
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*3* flight decks??? Ooooooookay. Didn't see that from the 3D or the elevators.
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*3* flight decks??? Ooooooookay. Didn't see that from the 3D or the elevators.
By the battle of midway the lower and middle flight decks had been enclosed and converted to hanger decks, and the upper flight deck lengthened to run the full length of the ship. That's why you didn't see them in the 3D animation.
Click on the wiki link and it has a good pic of her during sea trials that shows all three flight decks. It should be noted that the lower and middle decks were take-off only. Landing was done on the upper deck. It was an early try at simultaneous landing and take off operations, like the angled landing deck on modern carriers allows.
I knew they were built up on cruiser or battleship hulls, but I never realized just how high above the top pf the original hull the flights decks were. I'm surprised they didn't just capsize of their own accord as soon as they left the harbor.
Remember that most of that space above the hull is empty, or taken up with relitivly light aircraft. There's a bunch of heavy machinery, fuel, ballast and other stuff down low to keep the CG below the Center of Buoyancy.
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As originally built they had 3 flight decks, both were rebuilt with a single ship length flight deck, thus also increasing hanger space, in the late 30s.
When originally converted to carriers you got to remember no one was really sure at the time what a carrier should look like. The Americans were the exceptions with the Lexington conversions in getting it, mostly, right on the first go with their Washington Treaty conversions.
So those 3-D models linked to above were wrong. They didn't show three flight decks, only one. Or they showed the configuration after the rebuild.
Found this at Wikipedia:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/JapaneseAircraftCarrierAkagi3Deck_cropped.jpg/1920px-JapaneseAircraftCarrierAkagi3Deck_cropped.jpg)
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So those 3-D models linked to above were wrong. They didn't show three flight decks, only one. Or they showed the configuration after the rebuild.
The video pretty clearly said it was showing her as she was at the Battle of Midway. She had been refit several times between 1927 and 1942. The flight deck modernization was completed in 1938.
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*3* flight decks??? Ooooooookay. Didn't see that from the 3D or the elevators.
Both are as she was after her rebuild and at the time of her sinking.
Akagi in 1928
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Odos8LHaL._SX425_.jpg)
After rebuild
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQOQasanHFakYAbHU3K6zEPR8DJ6P60ao6yfQ0SajWo5NC8eujo&s)
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Click on the wiki link and it has a good pic of her during sea trials that shows all three flight decks. It should be noted that the lower and middle decks were take-off only. Landing was done on the upper deck. It was an early try at simultaneous landing and take off operations, like the angled landing deck on modern carriers allows.
We were still trying out that idea even later
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/11821/the-crazy-aircraft-carrier-hangar-catapults-of-world-war-ii
Hanger deck catapult launch from CV-10 Yorktown during the war
(https://the-drive.imgix.net/https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fthe-drive-staging%2Fmessage-editor%252F1498582747397-asdh5267.jpg?auto=compress%2Cformat&ixlib=js-1.4.1&s=cfd7e354d9e45e36bd96cf8ac5505b38)
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BTW: Your eyes aren't fooling you, Akagi (after rebuild) did have a port side island instead of the much more common starboard
BTW BTW: Hiryu too
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Now if you really want insane here's HMS Furious in 1918. Not only was the layout awkward for handling aircraft but pilots had a rather serious dislike to trying to land through the plume of funnel gases and superstructure air eddies.
This layout didn't last long and she was rebuild with a full length flight deck
(https://laststandonzombieisland.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/hms-furious-shortly-following-its-initial-conversion-and-in-dazzle-paint-scheme-in-1918-an-ssz-class-blimp-is-on-the-after-deck.jpg)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F67.205.157.234%2Fdrawings%2F5138%2Ffile&hash=a8b4cebaeb91d78084263bcbb50663436e6044a9)
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How long until someone comes along and mine them for pre atomic bomb steel.
Remind me why pre A-bomb steel would be worth more than current production steel of the same alloy? The tiny amount of radiation in current steel can't be a factor for anything but a very few esoteric applications.
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Low Background Steel is used in the production of sensitive instruments and some Air and Space applications. So a "very few esoteric applications" is correct. But they are expensive esoteric applications that need hard to get stuff, so folks that have that stuff can charge quite a bit for it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel
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Update
First Visual Survey of IJN Akagi 赤城 - Historic Battle of Midway Shipwreck | Nautilus Live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTBDn3-AfVM
Edit: Note- Several errors in one of the people speaking almost as if he's knows next to nothing about Akagi and didn't bother to double check
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WTF is up with those videos?
It's like the cameras are zooming in and out and moving up and down. It's almost nauseating.
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WTF is up with those videos?
It's like the cameras are zooming in and out and moving up and down. It's almost nauseating.
It looks like the ROV tether is tight and it's being tugged up and down, following the wave motion of the mothership.
Edit to correct UAV to ROV.
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The ship's at 18,000 feet. I don't think they could put it on a tight tether. I'd think that the line would part in a heartbeat if they tried that.
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I've seen that effect on lots of ROV videos. The tether isn't taut enough where it would snap with wave motion. There is a fair amount of slack in it. As the ship moves up and down, it is just putting a wave in the tether itself, and that wave is then imparted to and moving the ROV.
I should have been clearer in my explanation.
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OK, that makes a lot more sense.
I'd have thought, though, that at that depth and for what they were trying to do they would have used a stabilized ROV to get steady pictures of the ship.
Ballard was doing that on Titanic and Bismarck 30-40 years ago.
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You would think they'd use a stabilized system, but maybe they are not that well funded. Or there could be other reasons.
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Don't forget the ROV is probably fighting whatever current is down there at the same time.
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Don't forget the ROV is probably fighting whatever current is down there at the same time.
This is true.
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And forgot to add
And you probably don't want too much slack on the cables because that would greatly increase the chance of the cable snagging on something
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Here's Drach with Jon Parshall looking at the footage.
Note: Jon Parshall knows a heck of a lot more about Akagi and what he's looking at than whoever was narrating the above video (Reply 33)
The Wrecks of Midway - Diving on IJN Akagi (Sept 2023)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2GrwzNriaw
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Here's Drach with Jon Parshall looking at the footage.
Note: Jon Parshall knows a heck of a lot more about Akagi and what he's looking at than whoever was narrating the above video (Reply 33)
The Wrecks of Midway - Diving on IJN Akagi (Sept 2023)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2GrwzNriaw
Part ][
The Wrecks of Midway - Diving on IJN Kaga and USS Yorktown (Sept 2023)
https://youtu.be/2Id6Fwfmd9Q
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Kaga is F'ed up
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Kaga is F'ed up
Yep. She took up to 14 bomb hits, a combination of 500 and 1,000 pound bombs.
And then her hundreds of tons of aircraft munitions started going off. Some accounts state that there was as much as 40 tons of bombs and torpedoes scattered around the hangar deck, courtesy of the multiple switches that were made between trying to decide whether to arm the planes for another attack on Midway or to deal with the American ships.
When those munitions started going off they did immense damage to the flight deck and apparently knocked out huge sections of the sides of the ship.
She was, by far, the hardest hit of all of the Japanese carriers at Midway. In a lot of ways it's a freaking miracle that there's much left at all.