Author Topic: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!  (Read 10831 times)

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,973
Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« on: June 24, 2011, 10:57:44 AM »
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/geithner-taxes-small-business-must-rise

They just don't get it.

And they are bitterly clinging to their discredited talismans of a world and philosophy gone to dust.   ;)

And wow, the hubris! 

Quote from: Our SecTreas who doesn't understand the concept of property ownership
“We're not doing it because we want to do it, we're doing it because if we don't do it, then, again, I have to go out and borrow a trillion dollars over the next 10 years to finance those tax benefits for the top 2 percent, and I don't think I can justify doing that,” said Geithner.

Un-levied taxes are now "tax benefits." ;/

Quote from: Our SecTreas who uses the dirty "for the children" line
When Ellmers finally told Geithner that “the point is we need jobs,” he responded that the administration felt it had “no alternative” but to raise taxes on small businesses because otherwise “you have to shrink the overall size of government programs”—including federal education spending.

That's why we sent TEA Partiers to Congress.  To shrink Government.  Including Federal education spending.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,425
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2011, 10:59:55 AM »
I concur in your assessment.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2011, 11:25:35 AM »
They have their priorities; we have ours.  It's good that they are being compelled to state what they really believe.  They simply cannot imagine shrinking government, ever, under any circumstance, and they are willing to do just about anything to make sure it doesn't happen.  If it means increasingly fettering small business, well, no matter, "education" grants matter more.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2011, 05:41:35 PM »
Quote
otherwise “you have to shrink the overall size of government programs”—including federal education spending.

He got that part right - maybe that is a step in the right direction.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2011, 06:47:53 PM »
Almost every day I get a nagging feeling that Rod Serling should be reading the news
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Jim147

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,595
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2011, 11:51:56 PM »
Why do I keep hearing small business, $250,000 and top 2% in the same stories?

I know they don't have a clue, but why do the stories keep having the same numbers in them?

jim
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2011, 10:11:04 AM »
Almost every day I get a nagging feeling that Rod Serling should be reading the news

Consider if you will...a country where the average person has poor math skills and no concept of risk and long term planning...

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2011, 10:35:01 AM »
Consider if you will...a country where the average person has poor math skills and no concept of risk and long term planning...

...A condition brought about by 2 plus generations of social engineering in the public education system.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2011, 01:58:17 PM »
Consider if you will...a country where the average person has poor math skills and no concept of risk and long term planning...

That's what Mr. Geithner thinks.

He is wrong.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,625
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2011, 01:59:16 PM »
One entitlement program that must be eliminated is government's sense of entitlement to our income.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2011, 02:54:18 PM »
Un-levied taxes are now "tax benefits." ;/.

What's worse is when they describe tax cuts as reducing government revenue...and "giving money" to people.

Which would only be true if the philosophy were that all revenue is the govt's and they simply let you "keep" some of it.  I hate it when things are mentioned this way. 

longeyes

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,405
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2011, 04:04:31 PM »
What's worse is when they describe tax cuts as reducing government revenue...and "giving money" to people.

Which would only be true if the philosophy were that all revenue is the govt's and they simply let you "keep" some of it.  I hate it when things are mentioned this way. 

But that is exactly what they believe, is it not?  It's their world and we just live in it, at their discretion.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

Waitone

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,133
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2011, 06:09:11 PM »
Good news is Geithner's mask fell off, as if it needed to fall off.

Next up?  Bernacke.
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay, Scottish journalist, circa 1841

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it." - John Lennon

Lanius

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 224
  • Excubitor
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2011, 06:53:25 PM »
Why small biz?

According to statistics, real incomes for the poor fell since 1980, for middle classes stagnated, and only the ultra-rich (.5%) saw significant growth.

It's obvious that they are the ones who are running the game. That's why there's talk for tax cuts for them, to promote 'business', and tax rises for the little people.

Until mobs with torches burn down Goldman Sachs and most of Wall Street and hound these cockroaches out of the continental US.. Then the USMC  should invade the various tax havens. Until that day you're all gonna keep getting it hard, like you deserve for letting these people stay in power.

Guess which industry pays the most lobbyists..  ;)

Has anyone got a bigger tax-code than the US? And the really big corporations that reap the benefits of operating in your society, they pay what.. 3-5% in taxes? What's the point of that tax-code then?


makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2011, 01:07:31 PM »
Why small biz?

According to statistics, real incomes for the poor fell since 1980, for middle classes stagnated, and only the ultra-rich (.5%) saw significant growth. [citation needed]


I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2011, 02:41:48 PM »
Quote
Then the USMC  should invade the various tax havens.

So basically, you're giving up on ever criticising any US invasion of any place, ever. If we can invade a nation because their taxes are lower than ours, that pretty much leaves out stating any reason is too flimsy to invade.

"We invaded Iraq because it had oil. We needed it for the tax base."
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,973
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2011, 02:46:03 PM »
If we can invade a nation because their taxes are lower than ours, that pretty much leaves out stating any reason is too flimsy to invade.




I'm waiting for the USMC to invade Congress and lower taxes. [ar15]    =D
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Lanius

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 224
  • Excubitor
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2011, 03:46:11 PM »
The problem isn't that their taxes are too low. Why should we care they don't tax their own companies enough?

The problem is that tax havens are used by those corporations which believe they needen't pay taxes, but have no scrupules about profiting from a country's workforce, infrastructure, or gov't contracts.
I believe it'd be found taxes could be greatly lessened if only no one, company or individual kept dodging them like today.

The only thing worse than oppressive taxation is oppressive selective taxation.. and that's what you have in the US.

@makkatak

Quote
Between 2002 and 2007, for instance, the bottom ninety-nine per cent of incomes grew 1.3 per cent a year in real terms—while the incomes of the top one per cent grew ten per cent a year. That one per cent accounted for two-thirds of all income growth in those years. People in the ninety-fifth to the ninety-ninth percentiles of income have represented a fairly constant share of the national income for twenty-five years now. But in that period the top one per cent has seen its share of national income double; in 2007, it captured twenty-three per cent of the nation’s total income. Even within the top one per cent, income is getting more concentrated: the top 0.1 per cent of earners have seen their share of national income triple over the same period. All by themselves, they now earn as much as the bottom hundred and twenty million people. So at the same time that the rich have been pulling away from the middle class, the very rich have been pulling away from the pretty rich, and the very, very rich have been pulling away from the very rich.

Read more http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2010/08/16/100816ta_talk_surowiecki#ixzz1QVX6F6Xc

Even Greenspan, that ultimate tool of the elite, has been now heard to say it's not exactly desirable, this concentration of wealth and power.

makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2011, 03:58:36 PM »
The problem isn't that their taxes are too low. Why should we care they don't tax their own companies enough?

The problem is that tax havens are used by those corporations which believe they needen't pay taxes, but have no scrupules about profiting from a country's workforce, infrastructure, or gov't contracts.
I believe it'd be found taxes could be greatly lessened if only no one, company or individual kept dodging them like today.

The only thing worse than oppressive taxation is oppressive selective taxation.. and that's what you have in the US.

@makkatak

Even Greenspan, that ultimate tool of the elite, has been now heard to say it's not exactly desirable, this concentration of wealth and power.

Your linked article (which unfortunately provides no backing for the statistics that I can check) doesn't claim the poor have seen their real income decrease. Nor does it start from 1980.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought


makattak

  • Dark Lord of the Cis
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,022
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2011, 04:30:56 PM »
http://modeledbehavior.com/2010/07/22/income-inequality-a-deeper-look/



And my criticism still stands. Bottom has not shown a decline. Those individuals who populate the bottom 99% have become better off. They are not as much better off as those who populate the top 1%.

Incidentally, can you tell me where Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos fit on that graph? Start in 1980, if you would.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2011, 06:02:32 PM »
The whole "richest fraction" argument is provably invalid (read,well, any of sowell's books on economics).
First, it's income, not wealth that is plotted (which skews the top due to single year sales of property or equities)
Second, it's not tracking people, but rather groups of people who's members change.  If I remember correctly, in a decade, something like 40-50% of the bottom quartile move to the middle or top, and in a decade, more than half in the top quartile move down...we actually have a substantial amount of income class mobility in this country.
Third, it doesn't get broken down by age, the bulk of the lower brackets is composed of younger people, because, DUH, income increases with age/experience, which also accounts for a substantial amount of the bracket mobility.
Fourth, of COURSE ANY growth difference between brackets is going to result in an even more disparate amount relative to the total.  What you are seeing is an effect of investment growth due to this country growing more focused on services vs manufacturing, the result of which is a more investment driven (and thus, more growth for those who invest.
Fifth, the big jumps are DUE to lower taxes, as lower taxes encourage capital movement (and thus, claimed "income" due to capital gains, rather than just letting equities sit there. (see my fourth point, which is also the reason increased capital gains don't generate substantial tax revenue is those with significant assets can CHOOSE when the transaction occurs, which is why increasing them hurts the middle class the most (for whom the most capital gain transaction is a home sale, which is not nearly as flexible in terms of life timing), and also why increasing INCOME taxes on "the rich" (which I guess is now $250k/yr for a couple also doesn't change this much, since the bulk of the "income" of the wealthy isn't w-2 wages, but capital gains (something this chart, as stated before) misrepresents.
And finally, why in all that is holy is the knee jerk reaction to economic growth by those with money (which is due primarily to investment and profit generated through business, is to tax (read:punish) them?  It's the same false logic of people decrying oil company profits, while enjoying high returns on blue chip index funds in their 401(k)'s, and then whining when punitive legislation they asked for hits their investments--get a clue random people, there isn't some dude named Joe exxon-mobile out there raking it in, the bulk of most companies equity and debt is held by institutional investors...which make money on investments for, yup, anyone with a 401(k).  Since the bulk of the wealthy are in the financial sector, they make money when their clients (which, for the absolute majority of invested dollars, are retirement funds) make money, so punishing the whole for doing their job is absurd.

This kind of misappropriated "logic" is not only grounded in mistruths, but is basically laughed at by those who actually bother to learn about the economy.  And ironically, a far greater fraction of the uppernincome levels do understand the economy more than the lower levels, and use that knowledge to further their own success.  It is this part that strikes me as most sad...those that complain loudest about wealth disparity do virtually nothing to transition forward or even educate themselves as to the real facts. 

As was stated earlier...find bill gates on that income graph in 1980...or Michael Dell, or Steve jobs, or any one of hundreds of uber-rich.  Better yet, pick ANY person, point them out when they are 21, and then point them out when they are 30,40,50,60yrs old...the VAST majority of those points will move upwards, regardless of who you pick (the age argument).

In summary, this is a class-warfare baiting bulls$&t chart that has no real use or utility other than demonstrating how little the user knows about taxes, revenue, the economy, or how markets work.

And, flame off...I'm just sick of how stupid "facts" get promulgated and thus de-educate those that might have had a chance.

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2011, 06:11:24 PM »
And one more thing, before I get flamed back.  I grew up right above the poverty line, like bottom 20%.  I worked hard as hell in school, worked three jobs to put myself through college, worked two jobs after I graduated, and you know what?  My income has gone up almost 800% in 12 years (that's roughly 18% per year)...and I hope like hell to make it into the higher percentages in the future.  What is the difference between me and the "average" person you say is getting hurt by this growth...well, I work 60-80hrs a week, started my own business (which failed) went to school and worked my tail off, etc.  The trend? Hard f'ing work, something too many people seem to have a problem with (that and the acceptance of taking a risk to achieve something significant) these days and would rather just complain.  Oh, as a note, I'm 33, and let me tell you, my generation sucks (in general), bunch of whining miscreants

Fitz

  • Face-melter
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,254
  • Floyd Rose is my homeboy
    • My Book
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2011, 06:43:11 PM »
I favor taxing birdman to subsidize my vices and bad decisions!

 >:D
Fitz

---------------
I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
I no longer respect any of you. I hope the following offends you as much as this thread has offended me:
You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

-MicroBalrog

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Geitner: Tax small biz more so Govt doesn't shrink!
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2011, 06:48:20 PM »
I favor taxing birdman to subsidize my vices and bad decisions!

 >:D

Maybe...but only you.  No wait, your vices are as expensive as mine!!!