Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax

[grampster]

You won't find me disagreeing much with what you have just said.  I did really like RR, though.  He was by no means perfect.  But he was the right man at the right time.  Find me a president that was perfect.  Teddy Roosevelt another of my favorites, was a *expletive deleted*it at times as well.  Someday I'll tell you the story about when I was RR's body guard for 24 hours when he was Guv of Cali on the stump for Nixon.

[Firethorn]

I'll have to pay more. I'll have to pay more at the pump to fuel my 30mpg car and be punished because I HAVE to commute, because there is NO public transportation, and carpooling is NOT an option. And I'd have a special finger gesture for the people who made me pay more, until such time as I could vote them the HELL out of office.

Ok, let's look at your scenario here:

At what point would you replace your 30 mpg car with a more efficient vehicle, such as a hybrid?
At what point do you take a second look at carpooling?
At what point would you lobby enough that they DO put public transportation in?
At what point do you either change your career or move closer to work?

Again, we're approaching this from the idea that oil usage needs to be reduced.  Given reserves and stuff, you're going to be paying the higher prices sooner or later.  Personally, I'd save increasing taxes if we can get alternative supplies up, but in the idea of not being held hostage by the middle east, Russia, or Venezuela we should reduce our dependence on foreign oil.  At the least, reducing demand can help until we get domestic sources back up.

Or, let's put it another way - we knock up the price of gas a bit.  This increase goes towards reducing demand through providing alternatives.  At some point it works, and people actually start using alternative transit in the cities, saving billions of gallons.  This stalls further increases, allowing you to continue.  While research improves alternatives to the point of economic feasibility.

While not deployed yet, thus no guarantees, would you use a PRT system if it had a station within a 1/4 mile of your house and work, not to mention stops actually in the Mall, grocery store, etc...  Cost for commuting to your work about the same as what gas is currently costing you?  Might it even be a bit faster if it's one of the faster systems, say, 45 mph non-stop?

Oh, and my whole point is a gradual, but obvious change, encouraging people to take a long term view to reducing their gasoline usage.  Other things would be encouragements to reduce the usage of fuel oil, diesel, all sorts of stuff.

[Gewehr98]

Firethorn, I don't believe you'll get a pat answer to your questions.

I'd state that it really depends on people's comfort level, first and foremost.

I'd also state their interest in energy alternatives is directly proportional to how hard their comfort zone is being squeezed.

Which is why you'll see a lot of whining, but not much serious footwork by consumers at this point in time.  $4.00/gallon isn't quite there yet.  Just wait, petroleum is a historical flash in the pan in my estimation, a footnote historians will use to describe that period of time between the mid 20th century and when we run dry and go into panic mode sometime later.  It reminds me a lot of the song "Last Plane Out" by Toy Matinee.

Greetings from Sodom
How we wish you were here
The weather's getting warmer
Now that the trees are all cleared
There's no time for a conscience
And we recognize no crime
Yeah we got dogs and Valvoline
It's a pretty damn good time
..
Chorus
Men of reason, not of rhyme
Keep the spoils and share your crime
Goodman, Badman, lost without
A hope for passage on the last plane out
.
There was one repressed do-gooder
And a few who still believed
Yes I think there were five good men here yesterday
But they were asked to leave
So we've kept the good old vices
And laboured to invent a few
With cake in vulgar surplus
We can have it and eat it, too
.
Chorus
.
Men of reason, hide your face
Walking backwards, plays his ace
Goodman, Badman, lost without
A hope for passage on the last plane out
.
Here's a concept you can't dance to
An idea you cannot hum
There may not be an empty seat
When all is said and done
I'm not the guy who sings the hymns
No bleeding heart to mend
But I like the part where Icarus
Hijacks the little red hen
.
Someone said the Big Man
May be joining us soon
But I never was the type to hang
With the harbingers of doom
And this party is addictive
Self-destructive, no doubt
So I hope that someone saves a seat for me
On the last plane out

[Manedwolf]

I'll have to pay more. I'll have to pay more at the pump to fuel my 30mpg car and be punished because I HAVE to commute, because there is NO public transportation, and carpooling is NOT an option. And I'd have a special finger gesture for the people who made me pay more, until such time as I could vote them the HELL out of office.

Ok, let's look at your scenario here:

At what point would you replace your 30 mpg car with a more efficient vehicle, such as a hybrid?
At what point do you take a second look at carpooling?
At what point would you lobby enough that they DO put public transportation in?
At what point do you either change your career or move closer to work?

My car is MORE efficient than a flawed hybrid at highway speeds. There is no advantage to that glorified golfcart in anything but city driving. Which there is not any of there. Plus, I don't fill the landfills with thousands of pounds of toxic lithium waste when the batteries need changing out.

Carpooling? Nobody who lives near me works near me! That's how it is for most people! Plus I leave late sometimes, early others, go to meetings offsite...that makes no sense.

Public transporation? It's freaking NEW HAMPSHIRE. There are a lot of these things called "trees" and "fields" and "whole forests" between the areas of houses. You want a bus to stop at every house that's ten miles apart? Sure, it'd only take you six hours to make it to work every day.

I live where I live because it's safe. I don't want to live "closer to work" because "work" is in an industrial district. For most people here who work in Boston or the like, they can't AFFORD to live closer to work, because closer is $3000 per month for a tiny broomcloset in a bad area. So I could get a crappy job (housing areas only have service industry around them) and not afford where I live, or live closer to work in a crappy area. Please wake up to reality for how it is for most people. Because you're in an ivory-tower fog.

Or, let's put it another way - we knock up the price of gas a bit.  This increase goes towards reducing demand through providing alternatives.

By raising taxes. Which does nothing but raise taxes. You want to price people out of their private vehicles and into public cattlecars by raising taxes. You're a statist.

While not deployed yet, thus no guarantees, would you use a PRT system if it had a station within a 1/4 mile of your house and work, not to mention stops actually in the Mall, grocery store, etc...  Cost for commuting to your work about the same as what gas is currently costing you?  Might it even be a bit faster if it's one of the faster systems, say, 45 mph non-stop?

Oh, for god's sake. Yeah, those will come right after the flying cars they promised sixty years ago. Come to think of it, they promised pod-cars 60 years ago, too!

And let's see, I could drive in my car, comfortable and safe, or ride in a public pod that possibly smells like vomit and urine because someone was drunk in it, with an inexplicably wet seat and whatever virus someone sneezed all over it. Or would you raise taxes to keep them clean, too? I went to college in Miami. They had driverless buses called Metromovers. Care to guess what those smelled like?

Go back to your ivory tower and navel-gaze more. The rest of us live in the real world.

[Paddy]

Plus, I don't fill the landfills with thousands of pounds of toxic lithium waste when the batteries need changing out.

Your sense of civic responsibility is is indeed a thing of admiration.    Don't worry about it; CAFE standards will sooner or later dictate what you drive. IOW, you'll drive what is available to you and nothing else. And what is available will be determined by forces out of your control.  In the meantime, you're simply making a choice; same as the hybrid driver makes a choice.

The rest of us live in the real world.

You live in the world limited by the EPA and the Federal government. That's the real world.

[Manedwolf]

Plus, I don't fill the landfills with thousands of pounds of toxic lithium waste when the batteries need changing out.

Your sense of civic responsibility is is indeed a thing of admiration.    Don't worry about it; CAFE standards will sooner or later dictate what you drive. IOW, you'll drive what is available to you and nothing else. And what is available will be determined by forces out of your control.  In the meantime, you're simply making a choice; same as the hybrid driver makes a choice.

The rest of us live in the real world.

You live in the world limited by the EPA and the Federal government. That's the real world.

No, I just look forward to pointing and laughing as California "leads the way" in greenie transportation idiocy and people leave the state in droves.

Just because you live in a crazy place where gas is $1 more a gallon because of the "special blends" the greenies got you to be forced to use, that doesn't mean the rest of the country will follow along.

My car, due to modifications and a header, would be completely illegal in California. And I'm quite pleased with that fact, just like getting an "F" from the Bradyites. 

[Sergeant Bob]

Here ya go Maned!

Magic Highway USA

[Paddy]

No, I just look forward to pointing and laughing as California "leads the way" in greenie transportation idiocy and people leave the state in droves.

Fine by me and most of us native Californians.  We'll just scale things back to match the population.

ust because you live in a crazy place where gas is $1 more a gallon because of the "special blends" the greenies got you to be forced to use, that doesn't mean the rest of the country will follow along.

Nobody here cares what the rest of the country does.  Really.

[roo_ster]

Nobody here cares what the rest of the country does.  Really.

Paddy/Riley:
Now, now, lying is as much a sin as murder & coveting your neighbor's manservant.

Yes, you do care.  Or you wouldn't be in favor of raising taxes / implementing CAFE regs to socially engineer the rest of it.

Firethorn:
MW has your number.  You seem to have no problem with social engineering to suit your vision of how everyone else ought to live their lives.

[Paddy]

Paddy/Riley:
Now, now, lying is as much a sin as murder & coveting your neighbor's manservant.

You may have me confused with fistful.  I think that's his particular vice. 

Yes, you do care.  Or you wouldn't be in favor of raising taxes / implementing CAFE regs to socially engineer the rest of it.

It works like this:  When your activities impinge on commonly used resources (air, water), the rest of us have the duty and right to regulate those activities.  You're not going to be allowed to drive around in a 12mpg behemoth polluting the air just because you 'want to', or dump crap into landfills that pollutes the water table.  IOW, the common welfare overrides your selfish desires. 

Dependence on foreign oil is also a national security concern.  The more dependent we are, the more we're forced to enter into military conflicts around the globe, under some false pretense.  So, energy usage will have to be controlled by force of law, CAFE standards being one method.

[Firethorn]

JFUser.  Personally I believe that things are adjusting just fine - the natural(more or less) increases in fuel costs will end up doing the same things.  The only thing I'd want is to help ensure that the switchover is as gradual and well planned as possible.  I'm only advocating that, if action must be taken, that it be taken in as simplistic fashion as possible.  Sure, open up all the areas we haven't been tapping.  Build plants to extract oil out of oil shales & sands.  Build coal liquification plants.  Bypassing the unrealistic greenies isn't a bad idea.

Manedwolf, You know, your situation sounds amazingly similar to mine?  I have a 30mpg car, commute to work on a route that's 90+% highway, etc...

My car is MORE efficient than a flawed hybrid at highway speeds. There is no advantage to that glorified golfcart in anything but city driving. Which there is not any of there. Plus, I don't fill the landfills with thousands of pounds of toxic lithium waste when the batteries need changing out.

Hmmm...  Both the Civic Hybrid and Prius are rated at 45mpg highway.  Second is that current hybrid batteries are rated for the life of the car; even if they do need replacing those batteries are going to a recycling center, not the landfill.  Third is that the batteries aren't LiIon(yet), they're overwhelmingly NiMH with a few lead-acid exemptions.

Carpooling? Nobody who lives near me works near me! That's how it is for most people! Plus I leave late sometimes, early others, go to meetings offsite...that makes no sense.

I figured that.  The idea is that the tax would, eventually, on average, get people to carpool where it makes the most sense first.  

Public transporation? It's freaking NEW HAMPSHIRE. There are a lot of these things called "trees" and "fields" and "whole forests" between the areas of houses. You want a bus to stop at every house that's ten miles apart? Sure, it'd only take you six hours to make it to work every day.

Subtract the 'trees' and 'forests' and you have where I live.  I can see work from where I live, I'd just need to get up on the roof with a telescope.  Secondly, have you looked at my proposal for PRT in the cities?  Under my idea the extra charge on gasoline levels off once the wanted reduction occurs, or even drops.  Meanwhile we aren't distorting the vehicle market with artificial designations between 'truck' and 'car' as with CAFE.  

I live where I live because it's safe. I don't want to live "closer to work" because "work" is in an industrial district. For most people here who work in Boston or the like, they can't AFFORD to live closer to work, because closer is $3000 per month for a tiny broomcloset in a bad area. So I could get a crappy job (housing areas only have service industry around them) and not afford where I live, or live closer to work in a crappy area. Please wake up to reality for how it is for most people. Because you're in an ivory-tower fog.

New ideas for a new age, maybe?  If you're working in an industrial district I can see why you wouldn't have housing there, but for many downtown areas I wonder what it would be like if  they adjusted the tax codes such that building places to be 50% housing and 50% commercial was a good idea.  Build a 10 story building, 5 stories of business on the bottom and 5 stories of apartments/condos on top.

By raising taxes. Which does nothing but raise taxes. You want to price people out of their private vehicles and into public cattlecars by raising taxes. You're a statist.

Ok, fine, I'm a statist.  Who advocates opening up our own sources, that might actually decrease prices even with increased taxes.  And I'm NOT trying to get people into cattle cars.  PRT isn't 'traditional' public transportation.

What's your non-statist solution?

And let's see, I could drive in my car, comfortable and safe, or ride in a public pod that possibly smells like vomit and urine because someone was drunk in it, with an inexplicably wet seat and whatever virus someone sneezed all over it. Or would you raise taxes to keep them clean, too? I went to college in Miami. They had driverless buses called Metromovers. Care to guess what those smelled like?

Reject the pod* and take the next one, the drunk gets charged, regular cleaning is paid through fare charges.  I took public transportation quite a bit when I was younger, didn't have any problems with it.  Just use easy cleaning materials.  Keep the system up properly and you shouldn't have too much trouble.  Keep the transportation fast and convienent and you should have few problems.

*Automatically goes to the servicing depot.

[Manedwolf]

Social engineering always fails, wastes money, and makes everyone miserable. Except the social engineers, who have their heads so far up their posteriors they mistake the howls of protest for applause.



Quit taking my damned tax money for your ridiculous World's Fair utopian dreams.

[MechAg94]

At what point would you replace your 30 mpg car with a more efficient vehicle, such as a hybrid?
     It depends.  My truck is paid for and I work less than 10 miles from home.  If I got a different job further away I might change.  As it is now, the cost is not sufficient to throw away my perfectly good truck for something else. 

At what point do you take a second look at carpooling?
     Carpooling is not something you can just get up an do.  It requires at least two people who live and work reasonably close together.  Not everyone has that situation available.  I have carpooled some at a previous job, but both of us had jobs that did not have consistent hours and we lived just far enough apart to make meeting up difficult. 

At what point would you lobby enough that they DO put public transportation in?
     I live in a small town near a bunch of chemical plants.  They aren't going to start a busing system.  The workers I work with are from all over the place.  The chemical plants are located for convenience to pipelines and barges, not public transportation.

At what point do you either change your career or move closer to work?
     I will NOT live next door to the chemical plants.  I'll let you do that.  The only homes near our little plant are ratty POS's and a trailer park.  The closer you get to the port of Freeport, the worse the neighborhood gets. 


I tend to agree with Mike.  Keep your Utopian dreams to yourself.  Let the market figure it out.  All that foolish talk of targeted taxes that adjust and such are just that, foolish talk.  We are talking about greedy govt politicians here. 

[Firethorn]

Quit taking my damned tax money for your ridiculous World's Fair utopian dreams.

Nice picture.  I especially love the traditional electric train car on the 'sacrificial' table.  You know, the trains that have historically lost money left and right and suffer the problems you mentioned, not to mention insane building/construction costs?  Heck, I wouldn't find that picture out of place with the train moved up to the pillar and two girls throwing money to the flames.

Personally, I'd like to see at least a test install in some city.  There's all sorts of route proposals out there.

I think that PRT has the potential to beat most forms of mass transit AND cars.  By using lightweight track, you can use the ability to get non-stop service and higher speeds such that they'd actually be faster than cars, on average.  The smaller form factor allows cheaper construction, reducing costs.  The on-demand factor helps prevent queuing, favoring a steady stream.

MechAg94, you, like many on this board, aren't necessarily the target audience.  Not everybody needs to change - just enough to reduce usage a bit where it's perhaps not as necessary.  In your case, what about when the truck is no longer operational?  The oil issue, if it is a issue, can be worked on a replacement through attrition basis.  In addition, at 10 miles you could be served by an electric vehicle rather easily.

Hmm...  10 miles, I'll figure 15mpg for your truck.  20 miles a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year.  That's 5000 miles a year for your commute(estimated).  333 gallons of gasoline.  Figure $3.50/gallon, that's $1167 a year.  Discounting oil changes, insurance, maintenance, depreciation from the miles, etc...  If they could produce a electric vehicle with a ~50 mile range and decent speed for ~$6k it'd make sense for you buy one now.

There's a reason I said 'second look'.  I'm fully aware it's not an option for everyone.  Still, if gas gets high enough, through tax or pure cost per barrel, there WILL be others who consider it, and some who take it up.

And yes, having a safety zone from chemical plants take precedence.  but what about the people who work in standard offices?

We are talking about greedy govt politicians here.

The biggest reason it wouldn't work out.  Of course, at this point I'm having more fun arguing than anything else.  I entered this subject on the basis of opposing CAFE standards, which are far more complex and distorting.

[HankB]

In many cases, public transportation simply doesn't go between where people are and where they're going - so it's not an option. Automobiles take you from where you are to where you want to be, at exactly the time you want. Pretty efficient.

And here's another throught . . . how many public transportation systems would exist at all, even on routes with the heaviest ridership, if they were required to operate without taxes or subsidies, but by fares alone?

[Manedwolf]

PRT is a hoax and a scam. That's all it's been for the past 30 years, that's all it will ever be.

It's bullsh*t used by carpetbaggers trying to get money from naive small towns and city elected officials who don't know any better. Nothing exists but bad CG concept art and unworkable concepts.



Let it go. Go sing the Simpson's "Monorail, monorail" song somewhere else.

It doesn't exist. And if it did, it'd look more like this.

[Gewehr98]

Which explains Manedwolf's narrow view of public transportation.   Nice portrayal, but not worthy of broad brush stroke-ism.

(Used Sacramento's Light Rail many times myself - clean, polite, very convenient...)

[Manedwolf]

Light rail isn't the same as the mythical scam of "personal rapid transit" magic pods that go where you want them to.

[MechAg94]

MechAg94, you, like many on this board, aren't necessarily the target audience.  Not everybody needs to change - just enough to reduce usage a bit where it's perhaps not as necessary.  In your case, what about when the truck is no longer operational?  The oil issue, if it is a issue, can be worked on a replacement through attrition basis.  In addition, at 10 miles you could be served by an electric vehicle rather easily.

I am not your target audience, but I will damn well be the target of your idiot gas tax.  So will a lot of people who are not your target audience.  It doesn't matter how you try to narrow the geographic area, you will be taxing people who don't have options. 

[mtnbkr]

At what point would you replace your 30 mpg car with a more efficient vehicle, such as a hybrid?
When the cost of ownership of the hybrid is less than the 30mpg car.

At what point do you take a second look at carpooling?
When there are people that live near me that work at the same location and work the same schedule.  Even then it will be doubtful though.  Sometimes I have offsite meetings, need to leave work or home early for one reason or another, or have plans after work that don't coincide with my carpoolees.  I've done it before.  When everything works out, it's great.  Other times, it's a hassle.

At what point would you lobby enough that they DO put public transportation in?
When the public transportation planned is useful to me and less expensive than driving my car.  FWIW, there is a pretty extensive public transportation system here in NoVa.  It's clean, safe, and relatively inexpensive.  Unfortunately, it isn't useful for getting me from home to my current place of business and it has many of the same limitations as carpooling with regards to flexibility.

At what point do you either change your career or move closer to work?
When there is an opportunity to do so that is lower in overall cost.  Moving closer wouldn't lower my communting costs enough to offset the added housing expense at the moment though.

Chris

[MechAg94]

Hmm...  10 miles, I'll figure 15mpg for your truck.  20 miles a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year.  That's 5000 miles a year for your commute(estimated).  333 gallons of gasoline.  Figure $3.50/gallon, that's $1167 a year.  Discounting oil changes, insurance, maintenance, depreciation from the miles, etc...  If they could produce a electric vehicle with a ~50 mile range and decent speed for ~$6k it'd make sense for you buy one now. 

There's a reason I said 'second look'.  I'm fully aware it's not an option for everyone.  Still, if gas gets high enough, through tax or pure cost per barrel, there WILL be others who consider it, and some who take it up.

And yes, having a safety zone from chemical plants take precedence.  but what about the people who work in standard offices?

We are talking about greedy govt politicians here.

The biggest reason it wouldn't work out.  Of course, at this point I'm having more fun arguing than anything else.  I entered this subject on the basis of opposing CAFE standards, which are far more complex and distorting.

Where is this $6000 electric vehicle?  I will not buy some piece of crap moped.  Your options suck and you know it, no matter how nice you try to make them.  I wouldn't even ride a motorcycle to work around here and you want me to get in some piece of crap little electric vehicle.  Also, my truck hasn't cost nearly anything in maintenance the last few years and it takes me wherever I want to go without concern about finding recharging every 50 miles. 

Yes, I agree that you are having fun arguing.  It is obvious you are arguing a bunch of utopian drivel that has no basis in reality.  You need to preface all your posts with "In the world of make believe,......" for that is about all their worth.  But that is just my opinion. 

Houston has been experimenting with electric trains.  About all they have accomplished is running into cars.  I think they are struggling to get the same ridership as the previous bus route.  I think Houston is actually ideal for a well managed bus system, but they are dead set on doing trains.  I am glad I don't live there anymore. 

[Firethorn]

In many cases, public transportation simply doesn't go between where people are and where they're going - so it's not an option. Automobiles take you from where you are to where you want to be, at exactly the time you want. Pretty efficient.

I was extremely lucky as a teen - lived within a block of a bus stop that stopped by the mall on it's way downtown.  I'd sit and read a book.  I'll fully admit to NOT riding as often once I got my car.  I still rode fairly frequently though.  I'm not especially attached to driving.

And here's another throught . . . how many public transportation systems would exist at all, even on routes with the heaviest ridership, if they were required to operate without taxes or subsidies, but by fares alone?

Not many, but then, can you name a major transportation system that doesn't owe some of it's existence to taxes and subsidies? 

Manedwolf, the one you pictured definitely doesn't exist anywhere but in computers and pretty pictures, but there are some out there that have complete test tracks.



You could paint PRT as 'light rail, really really light'.  Combined with technology along the lines of how packages are routed at Fedex and UPS, heck, data packets on the internet*.  Smaller size means that automated construction methods can be used more than hand methods such as are generally used on the larger trains.  The lighter weight also means that it can be put into more areas at lower expense.

I am not your target audience, but I will damn well be the target of your idiot gas tax.  So will a lot of people who are not your target audience.  It doesn't matter how you try to narrow the geographic area, you will be taxing people who don't have options. 

MY gas tax?  I wasn't the one who originally proposed it.  I only favor it as an alternative to more CAFE restrictions, limits, quotas and such.  As for options, people always have options.  Looking at recent trends in gas prices, it looks like people are going to end up paying one way or another.

So, would you stop driving when gas hits $4/gallon, maybe $6?  $10?  It'll happen even IF we drop all the existing gas taxes.  Heck, with your short of a commute, you're a better target than Manedwolf or me.  I live in a town of 30 and have a 30 mile commute.  The idea would be to start increasing the cost of driving inside cities with the best alternate options first.  Build them if necessary, starting sooner rather than later.  Heck, I'll invest in a PRT system if I find one that I think will make it - showing construction costs in reason, developed software & hardware, good plan.  My back of envelope calculations shows that it could be a real moneymaker if done right.

Oh, and on the $6k EV - 'If they could produce'.     Gasoline either has to increase in cost by quite a bit or batteries need to get a LOT cheaper for it to make sense.  I won't demand that you ride some sort of moped.  Part of the reason I like the idea of electric rail - no batteries.

Houston has been experimenting with electric trains.  About all they have accomplished is running into cars.

That's why you'd elevate the system...  You don't want it sharing the same space with cars.

Mtnbkr, your answers are the same as mine.  My car is fully paid off, I'm saving for the next one.  I'm probably not going to replace it anytime soon unless something insane happens.  I work the numbers occasionally just because I'm the type to, and if I had to replace my car tommorow it wouldn't be a hybrid, but the numbers get closer all the time.  Figure $5/gallon gasoline and $1k less of a price difference and the figures at least start to swap.  One problem I've had with people is they object to me using a cheaper baseline car that gets higher mpg than the non-EV 'equivalent' the company produces.  I'm like 'But I don't LIKE some of the features!'.  Personally, I want a diesel for my next vehicle.

*With additional controls, of course, route should be fully predetermined before setting forth.  Unroutable courses should result in an immediate reject/clarification request.

[Manedwolf]

Are you even aware that Disney World's elevated track for the monorail cost over a million dollars per mile back in the early 1970's? And that's just a concrete I-beam with a pair of high-voltage induction rails.

Statists never understand how much things really cost.

[Gewehr98]

I think some forget our current system of roadways is also heavily subsidized with tax dollars... 

[Manedwolf]

And they're falling apart in areas where the transportation dollars get diverted from pothole repair and bridge fixes to idiotic utopian transportation schemes out of the 1957 World's Fair brochure.