Military Funerals - Flag Folding Flap

[Ben]

Another case of, "Why must people be such buttinskis?"

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http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2007/10/ap_flagfold_071026/

Words spoken in funeral flag-folding draw flap

The Associated Press
Posted : Friday Oct 26, 2007 11:38:39 EDT

RIVERSIDE, Calif.  Flag-folding recitations by Memorial Honor Detail volunteers are now banned at the nations 125 veterans graveyards because of a complaint about the ceremony at Riverside National Cemetery.

During thousands of military burials, the volunteers have folded the American flag 13 times and recited the significance of every fold to survivors.

The first fold represents life, the second a belief in eternal life, and so on.

The complaint revolved around the narration in the 11th fold, which celebrates Jewish war veterans and glorifies the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.

The National Cemetery Administration then decided to ban the entire recital at all national cemeteries. Details of the complaint werent disclosed.

Administration spokesman Mike Nacincik said the new policy outlined in a Sept. 27 memorandum is aimed at creating uniform services throughout the military graveyard system.

He said the 13-fold recital is not part of the U.S. Flag Code and is not government-approved.

Veterans and honor detail volunteers, including Bobby Castillo, 85, and Rees Lloyd, 59, are furious.

That the actions of one disgruntled, whining, narcissistic and intolerant individual is preventing veterans from getting the honors they deserve is truly an outrage, Lloyd said. This is another attempt by secularist fanatics to cleanse any reference to God.

Castillo, a Navy veteran of World War II, said its a slap in the face to every veteran.

When we got back from the war, we didnt ask for a whole lot, Castillo said. We just want to give our veterans the respect they deserve. No one has ever complained to us about it. I just dont understand.

Lloyd and Castillo are part of a 16-member detail that have performed military honors at more than 1,400 services. They were preparing to read the flag-folding remarks at the Riverside cemetery when graveyard staff stopped them.

Charlie Waters, parliamentarian for the American Legion of California, said hes advising memorial honor details to ignore the edict.

This is nuts, Waters said. There are 26 million veterans in this country and theyre not going to take us all to prison.

Nacincik said that while the flag-folding narrative includes references to God that the government does not endorse, the main reason for the new rules is uniformity.

We are looking at consistency, Nacincik said. We think thats important.

Rabbi Yitzhak Miller of Temple Beth El said he understands the ban.

It is a perfect example of government choosing to ignore religion in order to avoid offending some religions, Miller said. To me, ignoring religion in general is just as problematic as endorsing any one religion.

[Mabs2]

How retarded.
Why can't people leave tradition alone?
Although, gives me something interesting to research.
Been wanting to get a flag lately, gotta learn to fold it anyway.

[280plus]

My favorite part:

That the actions of one disgruntled, whining, narcissistic and intolerant individual is preventing veterans from getting the honors they deserve is truly an outrage, Lloyd said.

[Joe Demko]

Better care through the VA, among other things, would be showing the veterans some of the honor they earned.  Little ceremonies like this, however much Messrs. Castillo and Lloyd are attached to it, fall squarely under "too little, too late."  Whoever it was that bitched about it in the first place must not have much to do with his time, though.

[geekWithA.45]

I've been to several military funerals, and I've never encountered this flag folding/recitation thing.

I suspect it's simply not universal.

In all cases I've seen, the flag folding was performed crisply, in dignified silence.

[Len Budney]

How amazingly asinine. If an atheist serviceman doesn't want the God of Abraham mentioned at his funeral, that's his business--and I'd support honoring his wishes. Banning the ceremony so that people can't have it even if they want it... "buttinsky" is too nice a word for them.

--Len.

[Joe Demko]

In the seven years I worked in the funeral business, we buried a lot of veterans.  I never saw this little ceremony either.  The flag was folded in silence and presented to the widow or next of kin at every veteran's funeral I've ever attended.

[Paddy]

I've never understood why people always back down because of one malicious malcontent.

[Dannyboy]

I took part in a good dozen funerals while on active duty and we never once did this.  I've never even heard of it until now.

[stevelyn]

I've been to several military funerals, and I've never encountered this flag folding/recitation thing.

I suspect it's simply not universal.

In all cases I've seen, the flag folding was performed crisply, in dignified silence.

I was in the TRADOC Honor Guard. I've never heard of it. Sounds like some creative made-up BS.

[Mabs2]

What's a good place to get a flag?
The ones I've seen in Wal-Mart and even my local hardware store seem rather cheap...

[Joe Demko]

I asked my dad about this last night.  He's a vet and a member of the American Legion.  He's also never heard of this.  He says proper etiquette is to fold the flag in silence.

[Leatherneck]

I've never heard it done, and I've been to many military funerals at Arlington and Quantico.

TC

[Devonai]

I've seen the reasons why the flag is folded 13 times, but I've never been to a military funeral (thank God) so I don't know if they're recited.  Let the family decide what's said at the ceremony.

[Ben]

Hmm, interesting. Military Times doesn't seem like a Worldnet Daily kind of site, so I'm surprised they would make a to-do over this if it's not very common. Wonder if perhaps it was common well in the past and it's WW2 / Korea era Vets that are thus upset about it?

[Joe Demko]

I worked at the mortuary from 1977-1984.  We buried vets from WWI up through Vietnam while I worked there. We had honor guards from the various branches of the military, the American Legion, and police agencies.  Until I opened this thread, I never even heard of the flag folding being done in anything but respectful silence.

I think this is something Memorial Honor Detail Volunteers came up with on their own.  You may recall a fellow was dismissed from his job at a national cemetery a couple years ago over a somewhat similar controversy.

My guess is that the cemetery system administrators were willing to turn a blind eye to this irregularity until somebody complained.  Now somebody complained and the administration is enforcing uniformity.

[Sergeant Bob]

Hmm, interesting. Military Times doesn't seem like a Worldnet Daily kind of site, so I'm surprised they would make a to-do over this if it's not very common. Wonder if perhaps it was common well in the past and it's WW2 / Korea era Vets that are thus upset about it?

They are owned by Gannet (USA Today, Army/AF Times,etc) and they are in the business of making money so, I expect they print what sells papers.

If you've read any of the various "Times" lately, they are not above a bit of sensationalism to sell copy. They are just another mainstream media rag, albeit one which centers on military issues.

[OEF_VET]

I've participated in several military funerals, as pall bearer, firing detail, and flag folding detail.  I've never seen or heard of this "tradition" before now.  Given that the many vets who've replied here hadn't heard of it either, I'm guessing it's not so much a tradition as someone would like for it to be.

[Chris]

I've seen e-mails for several years complaining that the Clintons banned the practice, a liberal judge issued an injunction prohibiting the practice, etc., etc.  All of the above are correct.  The flag is folded silently.

[RadioFreeSeaLab]

I've attended two military funerals.  At both, the flag was folded in silence, and presented to the widow.

[Len Budney]

I've attended a couple two-three. Never heard 'em say a word as they folded the flag. The memory is hazy, but I do think I've read something or other that attached a meaning to each of the folds before. If they actually said it, it would add a good fifteen minutes to the length of the funeral, so I'd be surprised to see it done.

--Len.

[Gewehr98]

Maybe not funerals, but I had the recitation and flag folding done by the base honor guard at my retirement ceremony last year.  It was popular, but by no means mandatory.

Truth be known, most of the things done at a funeral or other ceremony are per the wishes of the honoree or their surviving family members.  There's a checklist of services available, one simply selects how simple or extravagant they want to go with it per the little boxes that get checked off.  Firing party, bugler, you name it, up to a limit, of course. Depending on the availability of active, guard, and reserve Honor Guard troops, you may get a detachment of veterans instead.  You may also get an electronic bugle that plays Taps at the press of a button.

I could've had a parade for my retirement, but the thought of having all those troops standing out there at attention and parade rest for however long while people bloviated and pinned medals on my chest didn't sit well with me.  So I bought a keg and finger food for after the short indoor ceremony.  The troops liked that a lot better.

As for my funeral, I'm gonna become Soylent Green, so no big deal. 

[Waitone]

Let us assume it is made up locally.  So what?  Why must we cave to tyranny of one?