Author Topic: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?  (Read 18244 times)

280plus

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2010, 08:13:27 PM »
The airplane is aerodynamics. Gravity is when the airplane isn't designed right. ;)
Nuh uhhh, it's still an anti gravity machine. When it works right. ;)
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erictank

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2010, 08:40:51 PM »
Ok, this might sound silly, but just how well does mankind (us, not Mick Foley) currently understand gravity?
Sure, I know we recognize the effects of gravity and where to find it (and why that is), but do we know what it is?


Early man certainly found uses for fire and knew many of its properties along with requirements needed for its creation (a fuel, access to open air, heat, etc).  However, they couldn't have known the smoke was a composition of oxygen, hydrogen and carbon (since they hadn't a clue what that even was) or the chemical reaction involved with the "fire" itself. At their level of understanding, they couldn't possibly have known.

Are we at this same stage in understanding gravity?   If so, when we do understand gravity at the same level that we currently understand "fire", would it be so enlightening that it could usher in a new era for mankind?

Just curious.

Nope.

We're not even at that level yet.  Cavemen could MAKE fire, even if they didn't truly UNDERSTAND it.  We have more of an understanding of gravity, by comparison- or at least we THINK we do! - but cannot create (or negate, over any practical area) gravitic fields.  AFAIK, that is.

Once we can manipulate gravity the way we can chemical reactions like flame, watch out.  To heck with the sky - the System's the limit!

MechAg94

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2010, 11:15:54 PM »
Nuh uhhh, it's still an anti gravity machine. When it works right. ;)
Nope.  Gravity is acting fully on the airplane at all times during flight.  No changes.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2010, 11:51:27 PM »
Nope.  Gravity is acting fully on the airplane at all times during flight.  No changes.


Then hows come it FLIES, genius?!  Never thought about THAT, didja?
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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2010, 11:54:15 PM »
If it was anti-gravity, it wouldn't need wings.

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2010, 12:35:24 AM »

Then hows come it FLIES, genius?!  Never thought about THAT, didja?

It flies because the wings exert force against gravity.
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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2010, 12:37:02 AM »
It flies because the wings exert force against gravity.
No, that's the injuns on the wings.

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2010, 06:09:27 AM »
No, that's the injuns on the wings.

That explains why Custer lost so badly at Little Big Horn.....flying injuns....  :facepalm:
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280plus

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2010, 07:09:57 AM »
Nobody specified exactly how we were to overcome gravity. If it has some means of canceling out the effects of gravity, regardless of what means they are, it is an anti gravity machine. Of course, once the injuns stop paddling it immediately changes roles.
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tyme

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2010, 02:33:23 PM »
I suppose by that logic hot air balloons are anti-gravity devices too.  It's easy to see how dangerous that sort of thinking is; for if you take away the atmosphere, hot air balloons would fall, and wings lose their anti-gravity magic when in motion.

One of the easiest ways to screw up Newtonian physics problems is to try to take shortcuts, rather than separately listing all forces acting on an object (including gravity) and then summing them at the end.
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280plus

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2010, 03:45:15 PM »
I suppose by that logic hot air balloons are anti-gravity devices too.  It's easy to see how dangerous that sort of thinking is; for if you take away the atmosphere, hot air balloons would fall, and wings lose their anti-gravity magic when in motion.

One of the easiest ways to screw up Newtonian physics problems is to try to take shortcuts, rather than separately listing all forces acting on an object (including gravity) and then summing them at the end.
Well, when you figure out how to take the atmosphere away I'll start to worry.  =D
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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2010, 03:55:35 PM »
Quote
Well, when you figure out how to take the atmosphere away I'll start to worry.

Haven't you been listening to Al Gore?

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2010, 04:03:39 PM »
Nobody specified exactly how we were to overcome gravity. If it has some means of canceling out the effects of gravity, regardless of what means they are, it is an anti gravity machine.

How about a machine that tell jokes?

 ;)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2010, 04:54:51 PM »
I suppose by that logic hot air balloons are anti-gravity devices too.  It's easy to see how dangerous that sort of thinking is; for if you take away the atmosphere, hot air balloons would fall, and wings lose their anti-gravity magic when in motion.

One of the easiest ways to screw up Newtonian physics problems is to try to take shortcuts, rather than separately listing all forces acting on an object (including gravity) and then summing them at the end.


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280plus

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2010, 04:58:12 PM »
Apprently when my thinking turned dangerous.  =D
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280plus

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2010, 04:59:15 PM »
How about a machine that tell jokes?

 ;)
Win!  :lol:
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tyme

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2010, 07:16:36 PM »
Um, yeah it can be dangerous.  Consider the physics of pulley systems, where it's quite easy for intuition to lead into the trap of considering gravity "canceled" in some places, which can cause major problems when the pulley starts to move or when the forces are not all linear.  Thankfully people who actually design cranes and such get that stuff right, but it's conceivable that someone who gets it wrong could cause serious physical harm to people/places/things.

Furthermore, perpetuating incorrect physics or math principles (outside of limited audiences of physics/math geeks) even as a joke can lead someone to take the incorrect concept to heart, get frustrated when they have a need to solve a related problem, and possibly even arrive at a dislike or distrust of science when their intuition causes them to take erroneous leaps and they therefore can't verify for themselves "standard" scientific results.

Same general idea as something that came up on THR.org a while back, when someone whined about incorrect unit representation and someone else whined about the first whine.  There are potentially serious mistakes that could be perpetuated by casual use of incorrect physics concepts (or units in that case).

I had some teachers in later middle school and high school who demanded correct units everywhere and took it seriously when students made stupid errors due to faulty intuition on physics and math problems, and if anything I wish they'd have been more draconian even earlier.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 07:20:27 PM by tyme »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2010, 07:41:16 PM »
Furthermore, perpetuating incorrect physics or math principles (outside of limited audiences of physics/math geeks) even as a joke can lead someone to take the incorrect concept to heart, get frustrated when they have a need to solve a related problem, and possibly even arrive at a dislike or distrust of science when their intuition causes them to take erroneous leaps and they therefore can't verify for themselves "standard" scientific results.


Wow.  I've heard of people treating science like their religion, but I don't think I've ever seen it until now. 
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tyme

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2010, 08:14:03 PM »
What does not wanting people to be scientifically incompetent have to do with religion?
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280plus

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2010, 08:24:40 PM »
What does a little joking around and calling a plane an anti gravity device have to do with scientific incompetence? And who might actually be hurt by this?

What if you actually have a device that somehow cancels out gravity and can levitate to great heights. What if whatever makes it work craps out while you are at this great height. Same effect as losing atmosphere, no? I mean splat is splat regardless of what failure got you there.  =D

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Tallpine

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2010, 09:53:45 PM »
What does a little joking around and calling a plane an anti gravity device have to do with scientific incompetence? And who might actually be hurt by this?

What if you actually have a device that somehow cancels out gravity and can levitate to great heights. What if whatever makes it work craps out while you are at this great height. Same effect as losing atmosphere, no? I mean splat is splat regardless of what failure got you there.  =D



Yeah, if the joke isn't that funny, then levity turns back into gravity  :O
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tyme

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2010, 09:58:24 PM »
Quote
What does a little joking around and calling a plane an anti gravity device have to do with scientific incompetence? And who might actually be hurt by this?

I have no idea what casual visitors or googlers might not know about physics before getting mired in a thread like this one.  The joke clearly died at post #27.  Then you came along with your T-virus and the joke started walking again, so is it really surprising that someone called in a fire mission?
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Balog

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2010, 10:11:48 PM »
Every time Wile Coyote runs in mid air tyme screams obscenities at the teewee. Religious fanatics are so funny.
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tyme

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2010, 10:20:42 PM »
Oh great; here comes the "secular humanism is a religion" brigade.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2010, 10:42:12 PM »
What does not wanting people to be scientifically incompetent have to do with religion?

Quote
Furthermore, perpetuating incorrect physics or math principles (outside of limited audiences of physics/math geeks) doctrine (outside of limited audiences of the pious) even as a joke can lead someone  to take the incorrect concept to heart, get frustrated when they have a need to solve a related problem, and possibly even arrive at a dislike or distrust of science the Bible.

It just really sounds like you're worried that someone won't ask Newton into their heart.   :P


Oh great; here comes the "secular humanism is a religion" brigade.

Well, you seem to be giving them ammunition.  When jokes about science offend you...  =| 


But to bring this plane back down to ground, there is no reason a plane can't be called an "anti-gravity" machine.  It resists the pull of gravity; therefore, "anti-gravity."  It is a semantical, not a scientifical, distinction.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 11:00:01 PM by Fistful »
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