Author Topic: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?  (Read 18240 times)

Balog

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2010, 11:08:16 PM »
Wow, I'm a brigade now? Sweet...

Also, if you prefer I could go with "obsessive fanboi" but I don't think it fully captures your zealotry.
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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2010, 11:22:00 PM »
Let's cool it on the jabs before this gets locked, ok?

GigaBuist

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2010, 12:07:16 AM »
But to bring this plane back down to ground, there is no reason a plane can't be called an "anti-gravity" machine.  It resists the pull of gravity; therefore, "anti-gravity."

But it doesn't resist the pull of gravity.  Gravity is acting upon that plane even in flight.  In fact the very operation of that plane is dependent on the force of gravity to keep the atmosphere dense enough around the planet to support its flight.

My spine keeps my head from hitting the floor but that's not an anti-gravity device either.

I understand Michael Douglas' frustration with the thread.  Physics is serious business and muddling jokes into a serious topic can be hard to swallow for people that take the topic serious.  Wade into one of the thousands of gun control threads spawned around the Interwebs today in light of the McDonald decision and see how long you can last before you're twitching in frustration at the amount of teh stoopid you run into.  It's often hard to discern joke from teh stoopid when you're close to the issue.

That said:

I think we have gravity down pretty good.  We don't really get the "how" yet but we can measure and predict the effects of it pretty good and well.  I don't think we're going to get the "how" portion until we discover how to manipulate it and we're not going to be able to manipulate it until we have a better understanding of the mass/particle vs. energy/wave aspect of our fundamental laws.  I envision experiments conducted in rather dead areas of space where a field of energy is created in an attempt to construct a gravitational pull without any significant mass being created.  The energy field would warp space/time like a massive object would, travel distance between two points could be reduced, and then we get FTL (Faster Than Light) travel.  Hopefully.  And like with fire we'll first figure out how to create the darned thing and then later on we'll figure out how the heck it actually works in great detail.

And, yes, I watched a lot of Star Trek growing up. 

Perd Hapley

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2010, 12:26:46 AM »
But it doesn't resist the pull of gravity.  Gravity is acting upon that plane even in flight.  In fact the very operation of that plane is dependent on the force of gravity to keep the atmosphere dense enough around the planet to support its flight.


Way to over-think it.  You just said that an airplane doesn't resist the pull of gravity.  =|  I was unaware that we were supposed to edit our comments such that no one, no matter how intellectually-challenged, could misunderstand.  If someone reading this actually learns from our thread that airplanes turn off gravity, or use a warp field that deflects the sub-atomic graviton particles, well, I'm not going to worry about them actually testing their theories in some bit of airspace from which they have managed to remove all atmosphere.  =)

I hope no one minds if I regard my spine as an anti-gravity device. 
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Ryan in Maine

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2010, 12:44:00 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev_%28transport%29

Will magnetism play a role in possible anti-gravity fields?

tyme

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2010, 01:07:07 AM »
But to bring this plane back down to ground, there is no reason a plane can't be called an "anti-gravity" machine.  It resists the pull of gravity; therefore, "anti-gravity."  It is a semantical, not a scientifical, distinction.

It goes far beyond the one example Giga gave.  Not only is his spine an anti-gravity device because it keeps his head off the floor, but it's an anti-gravity device for the floor because it slightly reduces the net force exerted by the Earth on his floor.

See how ridiculous this is?  Any piece of matter is an anti-gravity device under your definition, simply because of:
a) the Pauli exclusion principle (except in black holes, maybe)
b) its own gravitational effects

Anything that can create any other sort of field is also an anti-gravity device for two other objects, though it might require one of the two objects to have a special property like electrical charge...

Quote from: GigaBuist
I envision experiments conducted in rather dead areas of space where a field of energy is created in an attempt to construct a gravitational pull without any significant mass being created.

Then again, if the spaceship observing the experiment has wings, the field will have reduced effect because wings are anti-gravity devices.   [popcorn]
« Last Edit: June 29, 2010, 01:12:23 AM by tyme »
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2010, 01:37:04 AM »
See how ridiculous this is?  


[River Tam] Do you? 

Is there some secret scientific meaning to the prefix "anti" of which I am unaware?  Or when the eggheads decided that Pluto was/was not a planet, they also decreed some new, narrow definition of the term "anti-gravity"?  It has to be a magic box on a spaceship, now? 
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seeker_two

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2010, 06:15:13 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev_%28transport%29

Will magnetism play a role in possible anti-gravity fields?

That's my question...esp. considering that many of the superconducting magnets can levitate metal objects with ease.....so, anti-grav or not?....
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Jimmy Dean

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2010, 10:29:10 AM »
very few improvements have really been made on gravitational theory since Einstein's Theory of Relativity, the idea that mass is directly related to the subatomic energies of an object.  It would be a logical step that the attraction of these energies is what creates gravity, and therefore the larger the mass (more subatomic energy) the more attractive forces it has.

Now, the real question, and I have not done any research into this, and as far as Mechanical Engineering goes, the differance would be so negligable that we would neglect if it is true, is if the internal energy of an object also has an effect on it's gravitational forces,  i.e.  if lbm of 100*F water has a higher gravitational field than a lbm of 50*F water  (They have the same subatomic energy levels, but not the same atomic, or internal, energy levels....that is not completely true, but the change in energy in the subatomic level is significantly less than the change in energy in the atomic level with a change in temperature)

Monkeyleg

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2010, 06:28:50 PM »
very few improvements have really been made on gravitational theory since Einstein's Theory of Relativity, the idea that mass is directly related to the subatomic energies of an object.  It would be a logical step that the attraction of these energies is what creates gravity, and therefore the larger the mass (more subatomic energy) the more attractive forces it has.

Now, the real question, and I have not done any research into this, and as far as Mechanical Engineering goes, the differance would be so negligable that we would neglect if it is true, is if the internal energy of an object also has an effect on it's gravitational forces,  i.e.  if lbm of 100*F water has a higher gravitational field than a lbm of 50*F water  (They have the same subatomic energy levels, but not the same atomic, or internal, energy levels....that is not completely true, but the change in energy in the subatomic level is significantly less than the change in energy in the atomic level with a change in temperature)

I knew all that.

BTW, I thought you died recently. You're the sausage guy, right. ;)

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #60 on: June 30, 2010, 02:10:32 AM »
I was buried with my iPhone... :D

this is my nickname, which is yes, from the sausage....

280plus

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2010, 07:26:59 AM »
I've been away. Norwalk CT for two days. I have to go back.  [barf]

Interesting read.   =D

Right, semantics. Words games, that's all. Just trying to add a little levity to gravity.  Nothing to get excited about. =)
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MechAg94

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2010, 09:17:52 AM »
I think Fistful needs to visit an engineering school and audit classes in Statics and Dynamics.  

He will either understand or people will hear a muffled pop it won't matter anymore.   =D
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tyme

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2010, 07:10:03 PM »
That's my question...esp. considering that many of the superconducting magnets can levitate metal objects with ease.....so, anti-grav or not?....

I would not call that anti-gravity.  Gravity acts on the entire system -- the electromagnetic rails and the train -- the same as if it were a normal train.  Anything that relies on forces or conservation of mass (chemical rockets, ion propulsion, orion-type bomb shockwave surfing) cannot be called anti-gravity without creating the absurd semantic situation where everything is an anti-gravity device.

Something that smooths space-time around the device, or within an imaginary surface created by the device (one side of a plane, or a cone), is definitely anti-gravity.  Something that creates an artificial gravity well to offset existing gravitational forces might be anti-gravity, if it uses less than (hopefully far less than) the equivalent amount of energy (based on relativity) to create that gravity well.  Including any other devices/phenomena opens the definition to enough ambiguity that the term might become useless.  For instance, a device that converts energy, according to currently known physics, into a gravity well according to known equivalences, and uses that gravity well -- created by mass or energy density -- to offset existing gravitational forces, can't really be called anti-gravity either.  It would have major consequences for propulsion, but if it were called anti-gravity, you could just as easily call the moon an anti-gravity devices because when you're at the gravitational midpoint between Earth and Moon, the Moon prevents you from falling back to Earth.

It might well be that there is no way to create anti-gravity devices in the sense above.  I do not think the definition of anti-gravity should depend on whether it's possible.  I'm more concerned with defining anti-gravity so that it doesn't encompass every force-producing physical phenomenon.

Fistful, if you have a better definition, how about presenting it?

Quote from: Fistful
Or when the eggheads decided that Pluto was/was not a planet,

The options the astronomical community had were either to add several other objects as planets (a term which had never previously been adequately defined) -- and probably add even more over time -- or make a one-time adjustment by excluding Pluto -- and be reasonably sure that they wouldn't have to regularly tweak the list of planets in the future.

Any change in the status quo, that we previously assumed was static, is a shock to people.  I grew up learning Pluto as a planet, as did (almost?) everyone here.  But our understanding of the universe changes, and we shouldn't hold on to the past simply to avoid change.  "Planet" is supposed to mean something, rather than "a somewhat arbitrary list of things orbiting Sol that we picked because we saw them first".  We can't have Pluto remain a planet when Eris and other dwarf planets are excluded, unless there really are qualitative differences.  I'm sure the IAU looked carefully for a reasonable way to differentiate Pluto and allow it to remain a planet, but in the end they couldn't find one that was meaningful enough.
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Tallpine

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2010, 07:24:55 PM »
I have an anti-gravity device.

It's called a "ladder"  :laugh:
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280plus

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2010, 08:00:19 PM »
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_the_prefix_'anti'_mean

A. The prefix, Anti, can mean counter, opposing, instead, opposite, against, viruses or lots of other things

Absurd:

Main Entry: 1ab·surd 
Pronunciation: \əb-ˈsərd, -ˈzərd\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French absurde, from Latin absurdus, from ab- + surdus deaf, stupid
Date: 1557
1 : ridiculously unreasonable, unsound, or incongruous <an absurd argument>


Therefore, if an device has a means of opposing gravity, regardless of those means, it can certainly be refered to as an "anti-gravity" machine without being ridiculously unreasonable, unsound or incongruous.

So there...  :P

 =D



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Perd Hapley

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2010, 08:07:39 PM »
Quote
The options the astronomical community had were either to add several other objects as planets and so on...

I have no problem with the Pluto decision.  I just thought it would be an amusing setting in which "anti-gravity" might receive an official definition. 

As for the better definition for "anti-gravity," 280plus has done a fine job.  For a light-hearted forum thread, there's no reason we can't call a plane or a ladder an anti-gravity device.  Those who say otherwise have odd ideas about the English language, or are just wound too tight.
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280plus

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #67 on: July 01, 2010, 08:28:47 PM »
Actually, "anti gravity" might not be the correct term for what tyme is describing. He doesn't want to oppose it, he wants to cancel it out.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2010, 08:39:01 PM »
ungravity?   :lol:
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seeker_two

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2010, 08:44:04 PM »
Maybe he can vote against it in November?....
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tyme

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2010, 08:44:13 PM »
Quote
Those who say otherwise have odd ideas about the English language, or are just wound too tight.
I AM NOT BLOODY WOUND TOO TIGHT.  THIS IS A MATTER OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE TO TEH UNIVERSE.

280plus presented an alternate definition, but it doesn't address the problem, which is that "anti-gravity" becomes semantically null when you define it that way.
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280plus

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2010, 10:29:16 PM »
Semantically null? Splain please...  =)
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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2010, 09:41:27 AM »
Actually......

(rummages around, draws a force diagram for a chair)

See, the chair I'm sitting in is exerting a force on me that is equal but opposite the force being exerted on me by gravity.  So therefore, it is technically accurate to describe the chair I'm sitting in to be an anti-gravity device, as it DOES technically affect a force that cancels the force being exerted by gravity.

:P

(and now I'm gonna go build me a Tyme machine and pretend I never posted this)

=D
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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2010, 11:32:20 AM »
One possible candidate for "Dark Energy" is that gravity itself might be repulsive in nature over large extragalactic distances, and may account for some of the constant acceleration of the universe's expansion.

In that case, since gravity itself has both attributes, there's no anti-gravity to discover, no anti-gravitons, or space time "hills", as opposed to space-time "wells". It may simply be gravity behaving in both ways.

So in that case anti-gravity exists on the very macro-scale of extragalactic space, and just is not reproduceable locally to do things like lift ships off the surface of a planet easily.

Then there is also the possibility of the "big rip" as the expansion of space-time accelerates, long after all the stars are dead, the stretching of space-time may rip apart the galaxies (now mostly full of black holes, neutron stars, maybe a few ultra-long-lived 3rd or 4th generation red dwarf stars). Then eventually un-bind any planetary and multiple star systems, disintegrate planets and stars (or their remnants). And the ever accelerating expansion of space-time might overcome the strong nuclear force and disassemble atoms and particles.
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Tallpine

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Re: Do we understand gravity as cavemen understood fire?
« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2010, 11:42:27 AM »
Then there is also the possibility of the "big rip" as the expansion of space-time accelerates, long after all the stars are dead, the stretching of space-time may rip apart the galaxies (now mostly full of black holes, neutron stars, maybe a few ultra-long-lived 3rd or 4th generation red dwarf stars). Then eventually un-bind any planetary and multiple star systems, disintegrate planets and stars (or their remnants). And the ever accelerating expansion of space-time might overcome the strong nuclear force and disassemble atoms and particles.

That's not a very cheerful thought ....  =(
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