Don't Talk to the Police

[Ben]

Criminal defense attorney giving a talk to a law school class. A long video, and the guy talks really fast, but he makes some good and interesting points. He gives the last half of his talk to a cop to allow a rebuttal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc&feature=youtu.be

[vaskidmark]

It's a perennial classic.

My take has adjusted over the years from "Say absolutely nothing but "I want a lawyer" to some limited discussion of my need/desire for medical attention along with pointing out witnesses or evidence of the other guy's behavior.

Thanks to SCOTUS, we are back to needing to say "I want a lawyer" rather than just remaining mute in response to questioning.

stay safe.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

There is a pretty good analysis of that piece floating around

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

here  i think he covers both the vids in vogue
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/10/07/135211/bennett-haseltons-response-to-that-dont-talk-to-cops-video

and one of my favs is the observation that the lawyer never talks to those folks who talk and walk.  he only talks to the ones with issues who get jacked

[SteveS]

My take has adjusted over the years from "Say absolutely nothing but "I want a lawyer" to some limited discussion of my need/desire for medical attention along with pointing out witnesses or evidence of the other guy's behavior.

This is my advice to people, too.

In my state, Michigan, it is important to remember that it is illegal to lie to the police.  Therefore, you are better off saying as little as possible and being very careful how you answer any questions.

[MechAg94]

I tend to agree with that review of the video.  The video almost always uses interviews and formal questioning by police as it's examples.  It really doesn't reference initial contact with police after an incident.  The absurdity of the extreme position "I won't talk to police at all" has always been a bit weird to me.  First, I am going to call 911 if there is a shooting I am involved with.  Second, I want the cops to know my basic story.  Beyond that, I understand the dangers of continuing to babble at the police officer and I know I need to make an effort to shut up after the initial information is passed on.  Now, once I am beyond the initial incident response, then certainly I think people should lawyer up and make sure any police contact is done through the lawyer or with the lawyer present.  

And whatever you do, don't try to joke with the police officer or make any comment on marksmanship.  

I just really cannot understand the idea that someone would call the police and then not say anything but "I want to talk to my lawyer first".  IMO, you almost guarantee the initial investigation will be with you as the bad guy. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I tend to agree with that review of the video.  The video almost always uses interviews and formal questioning by police as it's examples.  It really doesn't reference initial contact with police after an incident.  The absurdity of the extreme position "I won't talk to police at all" has always been a bit weird to me.  First, I am going to call 911 if there is a shooting I am involved with.  Second, I want the cops to know my basic story.  Beyond that, I understand the dangers of continuing to babble at the police officer and I know I need to make an effort to shut up after the initial information is passed on.  Now, once I am beyond the initial incident response, then certainly I think people should lawyer up and make sure any police contact is done through the lawyer or with the lawyer present.  

And whatever you do, don't try to joke with the police officer or make any comment on marksmanship.  

I just really cannot understand the idea that someone would call the police and then not say anything but "I want to talk to my lawyer first".  IMO, you almost guarantee the initial investigation will be with you as the bad guy. 

ya think?

the one video that gets folks all tingly is done by a guy with a pony tail who is

wait for it


selling his book



and he uses the time honored concept of telling the mark what he wants to hear   its an infomercial

and they are both tilecrawlers do trust em at your own risk.

[Ben]

I tend to agree with that review of the video.  The video almost always uses interviews and formal questioning by police as it's examples.  It really doesn't reference initial contact with police after an incident.  The absurdity of the extreme position "I won't talk to police at all" has always been a bit weird to me.  First, I am going to call 911 if there is a shooting I am involved with.  Second, I want the cops to know my basic story.  Beyond that, I understand the dangers of continuing to babble at the police officer and I know I need to make an effort to shut up after the initial information is passed on.  Now, once I am beyond the initial incident response, then certainly I think people should lawyer up and make sure any police contact is done through the lawyer or with the lawyer present.  

And whatever you do, don't try to joke with the police officer or make any comment on marksmanship.  

I just really cannot understand the idea that someone would call the police and then not say anything but "I want to talk to my lawyer first".  IMO, you almost guarantee the initial investigation will be with you as the bad guy. 

Calguns Foundation has a different POV:

In case of a firearms-related law enforcement encounter, detainment, or arrest while in California:

1. Exercise your right to remain silent
2. Never consent to a search
3. Demand an attorney
4. Contact The Calguns Foundation’s Help Hotline (calgunsfoundation.org/hotline)

[Boomhauer]

One of the problems with trying to establish a very basic outline of your side of the story is that being all hopped up on adreniline and such you will probably be more inclined to keep talking more than you wanted to once you start talking. If you can keep yourself from doing that it will turn out better for you. And a lot is dependent on how the LE agency acts. In my area, for example, the sherrif's deputies are going to be a lot more amenable to your side than the city police department.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And yet how you establish that initial relationship is critical.  And you don't have to roleplay land shark. Look at Zimmerman.  Genius hes not but ultimately his initial interactions with the cops conducted without tilecrawler were pivotal to his case. In fact led to him not facing charges till the racebaiters and political folks got involved.  Even after that his own words  were instrumental in the juries decisions

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[never_retreat]

Around here I think I would call a lawyer first then call the cops. Especially if I'm not harmed and the perp is dead.
The cops really are not the problem its the prosecutors who what to spin a news story.

[SteveS]

I just really cannot understand the idea that someone would call the police and then not say anything but "I want to talk to my lawyer first".  IMO, you almost guarantee the initial investigation will be with you as the bad guy. 

This is not true.  I have had dozens of clients that thought they were more clever than the police or thought they could explain there way out of an arrest.  I can't think of any lawyer, anywhere, at any point in the history of this country that has ever said, "I wish my client would have said more to the police."  Invariably, even very smart people will say something that they thought was helpful or neutral that ends up being not so helpful. 

As for Zimmerman, I think if he would not spent hours with the police, talking with them and volunteering to recreate the events, he never would have been charged, despite the pressure.  The prosecution relied heavily on his statements.  Without them, they would have less than they had and probably wouldn't have charged him.  This would have been preferable to what happened.  His life is ruined.  I fail to see this as an endorsement for cooperation.

[MechAg94]

Everyone relied on Zimmerman's statements both ways including his 911 call.  Would you suggest someone not call 911 either?  That is recorded. 

It is important you understand the jurisdiction you live or travel in.  I can see your response might change also if you are in your home or out walking somewhere. 

[red headed stranger]

Mas Ayoob, who many people consider to be overly cautious about lethal force encounters, suggests staying pretty quiet.

He suggests simply stating:

This person attacked me
I will sign the complaint
Point out any evidence before it disappears (ie weapons that may have been dropped or tossed)
Point out witnesses
“Officer you will have my full cooperation after I have spoken with counsel.”

[Jamisjockey]

Mas Ayoob, who many people consider to be overly cautious about lethal force encounters, suggests staying pretty quiet.

He suggests simply stating:

This person attacked me
I will sign the complaint
Point out any evidence before it disappears (ie weapons that may have been dropped or tossed)
Point out witnesses
“Officer you will have my full cooperation after I have spoken with counsel.”

This right here. 

[Balog]

There's a pretty significant difference based on what kind of encounter it is. All police encounters are definitionally adversarial, but your goal in generic low level stuff (stopped for speeding etc) should be to avoid arousing suspicion. Start demanding your lawyer at a traffic stop and it will not go well for you. Someone might even create joinder!

But if you have to defend yourself saying anything other than whatever variation of "I was in fear of my life and acted in self defense. I decline to answer any questions until I speak with my attorney." that you've practiced is just dumb.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

This right here. 

Thats pretty specific to the situation being you shot someone. The least frequent situation

Good advice there

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

This is not true.  I have had dozens of clients that thought they were more clever than the police or thought they could explain there way out of an arrest.  I can't think of any lawyer, anywhere, at any point in the history of this country that has ever said, "I wish my client would have said more to the police."  Invariably, even very smart people will say something that they thought was helpful or neutral that ends up being not so helpful. 

As for Zimmerman, I think if he would not spent hours with the police, talking with them and volunteering to recreate the events, he never would have been charged, despite the pressure.  The prosecution relied heavily on his statements.  Without them, they would have less than they had and probably wouldn't have charged him.  This would have been preferable to what happened.  His life is ruined.  I fail to see this as an endorsement for cooperation.

Those dozens of clients? Were any of them actually innocent? As mentioned the encounters that end well never enter your billable hours.

And invariably? Want a mulligan on that word? 


And it was to some degree Zimmerman's openess that persuaded first cops to not charge him. And when it goes in front of a jury the perception that he was hiding something is hard to overcome.. in his case he told the truth and it did in fact set him free

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[MechAg94]

Mas Ayoob, who many people consider to be overly cautious about lethal force encounters, suggests staying pretty quiet.

He suggests simply stating:

This person attacked me
I will sign the complaint
Point out any evidence before it disappears (ie weapons that may have been dropped or tossed)
Point out witnesses
“Officer you will have my full cooperation after I have spoken with counsel.”

That pretty much fits the minimum I was thinking of.  The point for me was making sure the police heard your basic explanation and saw the evidence that you saw.  Otherwise, they migth assume you were the crook and overlook evidence important to your case. 
Ayoob generally approaches things from the perspective of living in a state hostile to guns and gun ownership; at least from what I have heard.  If you prepare with that in mind, you will be prepared fro the other states also.

[Jamisjockey]

Thats pretty specific to the situation being you shot someone. The least frequent situation

Good advice there

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

I'm assuming most of us won't be interacting with the police except for the odd speeding ticket.  Like Balog said, demanding an atty for a speeding infraction isn't really reasonable behavior.
That said, I don't like being probed. Pulled me over for speeding? Then this should be about that.  Don't ask where I'm going, because you'll get a smart assed answer "west". 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Few years back I annoyed a young Internet bad ass who told me I was real brave hiding on the Internet.  I pointed out that I posted under my real name unlike him and was local. He then told me he was coming to whup my butt. He drove over texting all the way.  Showed up in my driveway and when I came out refused to leave his car and unbeknownst to me called cops.  When 2 cars showed up i was presumed to be the bad guy.  The seperated up and started asking questions.  It was not till I told cop that junior had been making promises he couldn't keep that I got any traction. I then took cop  in the house and showed him the posts let him take screen shots. He walked by guns didn't seem to care. And we went outside to a very different situation.  I was no longer the bad guy.
I guess if I was smart I woulda followed the video advice and gone to jail. And paid bond and a lawyer.  That would not have felt smart.


Few years before that I was served a felony warrant . I went down to turn myself in after tgey called me. As I was being processed I read the document upside down. I asked deputy why I was being arrested since I wss not the guy named in the complaint.  That one ended up with a call next day from chief magistrate apologizing saying it was a mistake on their end and they would take care of iy. Which they did.

Thinking you are gonna outsmart the cops is poor thinking. Telling the truth ? Not so much. Again it helps to be truly innocent.  If your innocence is questionable silence is wise.

And never forget both videos have a vested interest in you buying their sales pitch.

Recently had a mistrial here guy shot his wife 4 times. Key to his defense were statements he made to 911 and to responding officers.  Some made sans lawyer. 



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[Ben]

I'm assuming most of us won't be interacting with the police except for the odd speeding ticket.  Like Balog said, demanding an atty for a speeding infraction isn't really reasonable behavior.
That said, I don't like being probed. Pulled me over for speeding? Then this should be about that.  Don't ask where I'm going, because you'll get a smart assed answer "west". 

I agree with Balog and Jamis. Well, mostly, because on my last speeding ticket, I sang like a canary for the most part to try and get out of it, but also clammed up when he started asking me about my ruck on the seat next to me.

The fact that I was being asked about the contents of a bag during a routine speeding ticket is one reason that I tend to side more with the attorneys here and in the video than with CSD on this subject. Many cops don't seem to know where to draw the line, or else they are so accustomed to people just spilling their guts to an authority figure, that they bristle if someone asserts their rights. Even our discussion here is starting to approach, "Why do you need a lawyer if you've got nothing to hide?"

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I think cops ask because its amazing how lucky they get. In real life they solve way more real serious crime by getting lucky on a tail light than they ever do with fancy csi or surveillance gadgets.
And even more how many they miss by not snooping a bit. A case in point is the case with pilly klass.  She was alive and hidden in the bushes close to her kidnappers stuck car when cops showed up. A lil snooping might have saved her but the cops were nice helped him get unstuck instead.
I perplex em sometimes.  Around here they like to ask "ever been arrested? "
I say yea. Lots of times. It throws em off. Many times they aren't really listening to your answers as much as reading your body language in response to the questions.  Not to bust snyones bubble but when they leave it be its probably just as much a result of then assessing that and deciding you are not trouble as it is your knowing your tights and standing on your hind legs and barking.  Though that barking isvone of the things they read. Most folks who are real dirty are real nice snd cooperative.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

[Jamisjockey]

I think cops ask because its amazing how lucky they get. In real life they solve way more real serious crime by getting lucky on a tail light than they ever do with fancy csi or surveillance gadgets.
And even more how many they miss by not snooping a bit. A case in point is the case with pilly klass.  She was alive and hidden in the bushes close to her kidnappers stuck car when cops showed up. A lil snooping might have saved her but the cops were nice helped him get unstuck instead.
I perplex em sometimes.  Around here they like to ask "ever been arrested? "
I say yea. Lots of times. It throws em off. Many times they aren't really listening to your answers as much as reading your body language in response to the questions.  Not to bust snyones bubble but when they leave it be its probably just as much a result of then assessing that and deciding you are not trouble as it is your knowing your tights and standing on your hind legs and barking.  Though that barking isvone of the things they read. Most folks who are real dirty are real nice snd cooperative.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

But see, for me and my dealings with cops, nothing raises my tension faster than a fishing expedition.  "ever been arrested?" Nope. But asking might make me defensive.  Probably a routine question.
"Where are you headed?"  To Kroger.  But why do you want to know? What law am I breaking, besides a minor traffic infraction of not coming to a complete stop? Allegedly. 

Few years back I annoyed a young Internet bad ass who told me I was real brave hiding on the Internet.  I pointed out that I posted under my real name unlike him and was local. He then told me he was coming to whup my butt. He drove over texting all the way.  Showed up in my driveway and when I came out refused to leave his car and unbeknownst to me called cops.  When 2 cars showed up i was presumed to be the bad guy.  The seperated up and started asking questions.  It was not till I told cop that junior had been making promises he couldn't keep that I got any traction. I then took cop  in the house and showed him the posts let him take screen shots. He walked by guns didn't seem to care. And we went outside to a very different situation.  I was no longer the bad guy.
I guess if I was smart I woulda followed the video advice and gone to jail. And paid bond and a lawyer.  That would not have felt smart.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

Or you could have dropped it and not invited a trouble maker and maybe even the police into your domain to begin with?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

But see, for me and my dealings with cops, nothing raises my tension faster than a fishing expedition.  "ever been arrested?" Nope. But asking might make me defensive.  Probably a routine question.
"Where are you headed?"  To Kroger.  But why do you want to know? What law am I breaking, besides a minor traffic infraction of not coming to a complete stop? Allegedly. 


why? raises tension i mean


Or you could have dropped it and not invited a trouble maker and maybe even the police into your domain to begin with?
not usually a good option  its a 12 step forum  na at that  its a small town and i make the rounds and have for decades . i'd much rather deal with him now than have someone whose name and face i don't know pop up and surprise me. plus i like home court advantage. it didn't hurt that junior was the one that drove 60 miles to my house spewing threats in the middle of the nite. and nothin i said to him rose to the level of mutual combat or provocation. this type of nonsense is all too common amongst the poseur class in na.  its why i don't go there often   or one of the reasons.  usually only go as a speaker

and now if i do end up dancing with him i am on record as him coming looking for trouble with documentation.  its funny  hes 20 years younger than me and size wise a good match.  the cops ragged on him somethin fierce

and if he was a shooter i hedged my bet a lil   that got interesting after one cop left the second one who went in my house called me on the hedging.  older guy read me/it pretty well