Don't Talk to the Police

[SteveS]

Those dozens of clients? Were any of them actually innocent? As mentioned the encounters that end well never enter your billable hours.

Yes. 

Some were and some weren't.  Out of the ones that weren't, some were charged with others things that they may not have been charged had they just shut up.

Of the ones that were innocent, I can reasonably say that they would not have been charged or they would have had their case dropped at the PT conference.

And invariably? Want a mulligan on that word? 

I'll take nearly invariably.  If you think chatting it up is going to help or that the innocent never get charged, then go right ahead.  In terms of a cost/benefit analysis, I don't see the negatives of not talking until you have spoken to an attorney.  This isn't just greedy attorneys trying to run up big fees (FWIW, criminal law, unless you represent the mob, is not very lucrative), but most prosecutors I have known have given the same advice.  Heck, most cops I know would tell their friends and family to shut up until they calm down and talk to someone.

[SteveS]

Few years back I annoyed a young Internet bad ass who told me I was real brave hiding on the Internet.  I pointed out that I posted under my real name unlike him and was local. He then told me he was coming to whup my butt. He drove over texting all the way.  Showed up in my driveway and when I came out refused to leave his car and unbeknownst to me called cops.  When 2 cars showed up i was presumed to be the bad guy.  The seperated up and started asking questions.  It was not till I told cop that junior had been making promises he couldn't keep that I got any traction. I then took cop  in the house and showed him the posts let him take screen shots. He walked by guns didn't seem to care. And we went outside to a very different situation.  I was no longer the bad guy.
I guess if I was smart I woulda followed the video advice and gone to jail. And paid bond and a lawyer.  That would not have felt smart.

No, the smart thing would have been not to get into an internet pissing match.  What would have the cops arrested you for if you didn't talk?  He was at your house. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

No, the smart thing would have been not to get into an internet pissing match.  What would have the cops arrested you for if you didn't talk?  He was at your house. 

the exchange wasn't long enough to qualify as a pissing match.  i told some other junkie to suck it up about whining about his withdrawl.  that no one ever died from it and it was like a real bad case of the flu. i made one post to our young hero and it was in response to him saying i wouldn't say that were it not the net.  i pointed out that i use my real name and was well known and in the phonebook. after that it was all his monologue. 
he apperntly told the cops i threatened him.  i could prove that was not the case.  or i coulda clammed up got a lawyer at the station.  i have plenty of experience in the back seat of cop cars. i'd rather show em what happened and go home.  now if you start to lie to em and get caught you are screwed . i've seen folks lie from a misdemeanor into a felony, and you need to stay in control of where talk goes. your goal is to create an impression

[SteveS]

i've seen folks lie from a misdemeanor into a felony, and you need to stay in control of where talk goes. your goal is to create an impression

The problem is that most police are better at this kind of stuff then the average person.  Some people are lucky and some people really are savvy enough to control the conversation, but most people are not.  The reality is that if the investigators already have a theory as to what happened, you may not talk them out of it.  I had a client a few years ago that was charged with forging a lottery ticket.  She was in her 70's, raising one of her grand kids, and had no criminal record (not even a speeding ticket).  She consistently told the truth.  The investigator from the state kept badgering her to admit that she did it.  Ultimately, she prevailed at the trial.  I don't think that not making a statement would have helped her, but clearly telling the truth didn't help. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Jurors tend to see clamming up as the actions of a criminal.  If I did that I'd have to go bench trial. I am fortunate.  Cops here are old fashioned

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[Jamisjockey]

But see, for me and my dealings with cops, nothing raises my tension faster than a fishing expedition.  "ever been arrested?" Nope. But asking might make me defensive.  Probably a routine question.
"Where are you headed?"  To Kroger.  But why do you want to know? What law am I breaking, besides a minor traffic infraction of not coming to a complete stop? Allegedly. 


why? raises tension i mean

Because I don't normally interact with the police, therefore when it goes beyond "did you know you were doing 50 in a 40?", then it makes me nervous that the cop is trying to find some reason to hang me up. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Because I don't normally interact with the police, therefore when it goes beyond "did you know you were doing 50 in a 40?", then it makes me nervous that the cop is trying to find some reason to hang me up. 

You're not wrong. They are trying. I have found that the other approach has worked for me. Many times. Sometimes even when I am guilty of minor offenses or even not so minor

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[Tallpine]

All police encounters are definitionally adversarial

Despite my current distrust and low opinion of police in general, that statement is totally false.

[Balog]

Despite my current distrust and low opinion of police in general, that statement is totally false.

In the actual definition, it is true. The cops do not have your interests at heart, they are not trying to help you, they are looking for crime (or "crime" as the case may be) to generate revenue and boost their performance review. Given that it's literally impossible to not commit crimes in this country (the average is 3 felonies a day, and given how broad and vague a lot of laws and regulations are if a cop/DA wants you to be committing a crime they can figure out something to charge you with) then everyone is a potential source of revenue/resume booster to them. They may choose not to exercise that discretion against you, but never make the mistake of thinking they have your interests at heart.

[Ben]

Given that it's literally impossible to not commit crimes in this country (the average is 3 felonies a day, and given how broad and vague a lot of laws and regulations are

Do you have any links to stats for that? I'm not calling you out, I've actually mentioned here that I'm pretty sure everyone of us at APS, and most of the US, are felons and don't even know it. It's always been conjecture on my part, but if someone did research, I'd be really interested in reading it.

[Balog]

Do you have any links to stats for that? I'm not calling you out, I've actually mentioned here that I'm pretty sure everyone of us at APS, and most of the US, are felons and don't even know it. It's always been conjecture on my part, but if someone did research, I'd be really interested in reading it.

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229

But in the meantime, let me give you an example. A machine gun is defined as any part or device that will cause a gun to fire multiple shots with one trigger manipulation. That part or device is considered the machine gun, even if it is not installed in the gun ie Lightning Links or DIAS's laying around in your house. Any self loading firearm can be made to fire multiple shots with one trigger manipulation with a wide variety of household objects depending on exactly what the gun is: rubber bands, paper clips, shoe laces, paper matches etc. So if you own a self loading firearm every single rubber band etc in your house is legally speaking an unregistered machine gun.

Is that stupid? Yep. Would that ever be enforced as written? Probably not. Is that the actual law? Sure is.

[MillCreek]

^^^ It came from this book: http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent-ebook/dp/B00505UZ4G/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1389470197&sr=1-1\

Which I read, after reading the WSJ review of it.  Here is an interview with the author: http://ulrichboser.com/how-many-felonies-did-you-commit-today-an-interview-with-harvey-silverglate/

I thought that the underlying premise of Mr. Silverglate's book was spot on: many of the Federal laws are so vague and give prosecutors such broad discretion to file charges, and that 'intent' is not a required component of the crime, we could all be inadvertently engaging in conduct that can be charged as a Federal felony.  

I don't know diddly squat about criminal law except for the required classes way back when, but I thought the book was well-argued.

PS: Oops, simultaneous post with Balog, but I am heartened to see that someone smart was thinking of the same book.

[Tallpine]

In the actual definition, it is true. The cops do not have your interests at heart, they are not trying to help you, they are looking for crime (or "crime" as the case may be) to generate revenue and boost their performance review. Given that it's literally impossible to not commit crimes in this country (the average is 3 felonies a day, and given how broad and vague a lot of laws and regulations are if a cop/DA wants you to be committing a crime they can figure out something to charge you with) then everyone is a potential source of revenue/resume booster to them. They may choose not to exercise that discretion against you, but never make the mistake of thinking they have your interests at heart.

What about the county sheriff a few years ago that handed me a check for $2500 ?   

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

What about the county sheriff a few years ago that handed me a check for $2500 ?   

Send it to me so I can return it to him

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[Tallpine]

Send it to me so I can return it to him

Our local VFD long since spent it.  It was our share for mutual aid on a series of tumbleweed fires along the BNSF track.

[Angel Eyes]

... a series of tumbleweed fires along the BNSF track.

Sparks from the exhaust or overheated brake shoes?

[Tallpine]

Sparks from the exhaust or overheated brake shoes?

Just from driving the train though deep drifts of tumbleweeds in the cuts and/or tunnel.  (believe it or not, there is a tunnel out in the middle of the prairie  ).  I don't think anything was wrong with the trains because it kept happening over and over for a while.  I guess that they finally figured out how to send somebody out to check and clear the tracks before the train.

[T.O.M.]

One of the best criminal defense attorneys I have ever seen always advocated for asking for counsel if the coversation with LEO went beyond name.  Then, after discussing the situation, he often encouraged clients to talk with the police, especially in self defense situations.  His belief was that in a defense situation, you need to tell your story.  As a potential defendant, you can tell it to the investigator, or you can wait until you are charged and tell it to the jury/judge at trial.  His goal was to avoid trial, or evwn charges if possible, so agreing to an interview with counsel was his advice.  I find it sound advice, and is my plan (and yes I have his home number in my cell phone).

[SteveS]

One of the best criminal defense attorneys I have ever seen always advocated for asking for counsel if the coversation with LEO went beyond name.  Then, after discussing the situation, he often encouraged clients to talk with the police, especially in self defense situations.  His belief was that in a defense situation, you need to tell your story.  As a potential defendant, you can tell it to the investigator, or you can wait until you are charged and tell it to the jury/judge at trial.  His goal was to avoid trial, or evwn charges if possible, so agreing to an interview with counsel was his advice.  I find it sound advice, and is my plan (and yes I have his home number in my cell phone).

I don't think most attorneys are taking the position that clients should never talk to the police.  I certainly wouldn't.  I just want to be able to talk with them first and be present when they do speak with the police.  In a self-defense situation, you really have to say something, since you killed or hurt someone.

[Tallpine]

Last deputy that I talked to came by to ask if I had seen anything that might relate to a report of a pickup being stolen.

I could have slammed the door and yelled "Come back with a warrant!" but instead we had a polite chat about the old guy across the crick who is addicted to pain killers.  (they found his pickup down in a coulee on his own property  )

At any rate, if I ever do have to use a firearm against a person in self defense, I'd like to be recalled as a reasonable rational guy 


In general, the local county mounties are too busy writing tickets on the main N/S hiway where we never go, and investigating barking dogs within the city limits of the county seat, to be of either much use or bother. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

how many of us have tried it and what were the results?

[T.O.M.]

how many of us have tried it and what were the results?

I can only give an opinion from the other side of the interview...the evil prosecutor.  I have handled cases where a statement has led to no charges being filed, and to a conviction. 

A thought comes to mind, though.  We all acknowledge not talking to the police is a good idea, but it is even a better idea to not speak with anyone about a self-defense situation except your attorney.  Anyone, not just the police, can be called to testify as to what you said in regards to an alleged criminal incident, if the statement is against your interest.  So, don't tell your best friend, your brother, your trainer, or anyone else...

[MillCreek]

^^^ Unless it is someone to which your disclosure is privileged: your spouse, your therapist, your clergy, etc.  Just make real certain that there is indeed a legally-defined disclosure protection privilege.

[SteveS]

I can only give an opinion from the other side of the interview...the evil prosecutor.  I have handled cases where a statement has led to no charges being filed, and to a conviction. 

A thought comes to mind, though.  We all acknowledge not talking to the police is a good idea, but it is even a better idea to not speak with anyone about a self-defense situation except your attorney.  Anyone, not just the police, can be called to testify as to what you said in regards to an alleged criminal incident, if the statement is against your interest.  So, don't tell your best friend, your brother, your trainer, or anyone else...

Agreed.  It is also not a great idea to air your dirty laundry on forums and social media. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i can see times where invoking is good  have done it.  i've also seen it done in situations where invoking got someone a closer look and charges that cops weren't even looking for.
in general the guys i've seen do it loud and proud did not serve their own best interests.
seen invoking let a guy literally get away with murder