Author Topic: No Cash Bail if You're Poor  (Read 1840 times)

Ben

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No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« on: November 02, 2016, 10:07:28 AM »
They keep saying "cash bail" in the article. I don't what the variations on bail are, maybe the APS lawyers can chime in. On the face of it, they seem to be saying that poor who are accused can just be on their merry way on their own recognizance. Surprisingly, CA is just getting on a bandwagon that's already rolling in other states.

One of the comments to the article talks about ankle monitors. I'm not sure if that's the replacement for cash bail, or if some states are simply saying, "well, you're poor, so you're off on your own recognizance, see you on your court date." If I were poor, or say a poor illegal alien, that was not tied down with a home, bank account, etc., and I'd committed a serious offense, or a lesser offense not worth the legal system's time, that might be my cue to get out of dodge or go underground.

I totally get that it's just as unfair for a millionaire to be able to post bail on say a murder rap, while a poor person has to sit in jail. I would just hope there would be a plan (like ankle monitors) to get them to show up to court the same as someone else who has a lot (financially) to lose.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/02/san-francisco-calls-on-state-to-abolish-cash-bail-for-poor.html
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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2016, 11:55:34 AM »
"Paging Sam Francis....Sam Francis to the multi-hued anarcho-tyranny phone..."


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wmenorr67

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2016, 12:44:39 PM »
I have a fix.

No bail for anyone.

All can rot in jail until their day in court.  Wonder how much quicker it would run if that was the case.
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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2016, 01:49:19 PM »
All can rot in jail until their day in court.  Wonder how much quicker it would run if that was the case.

Not a bit.  "Short on resources," you know.

Not short enough to drop enforcement of minor BS, but short enough to always interfere with handling of the things people actually hope they're getting taken care of for their tax money.

T.O.M.

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2016, 02:37:06 PM »
Ben, I've been working in the system for 22 years.  Only option besides cash bond I've heard of is a property bond, mainly real estate, where a court gives permission for a person to basically put up property as a guarantee of future appearances.  But, if cash bail is unconstitutional, I can only imagine that a property bond would be as well, if not more so (you can't require that only land owners be permitted to post bail, etc.).
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T.O.M.

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2016, 02:39:54 PM »
I have a fix.

No bail for anyone.

All can rot in jail until their day in court.  Wonder how much quicker it would run if that was the case.

It would probably bury the system.  At least around here, a person gets 3 for 1 credit towards the speedy trial requirements, meaning each day held in jail counts for three days towards speedy trial time.  In Ohio, speedy trial for a felony is 270 days, which becomes 90 days if the person is held.  Hold everyone, and watch how the docket demands get out of control.
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MechAg94

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2016, 02:59:20 PM »
It would probably bury the system.  At least around here, a person gets 3 for 1 credit towards the speedy trial requirements, meaning each day held in jail counts for three days towards speedy trial time.  In Ohio, speedy trial for a felony is 270 days, which becomes 90 days if the person is held.  Hold everyone, and watch how the docket demands get out of control.
I would think a better plan is to just reduce the number of felonies and require court hearings to evaluate preliminary evidence more quickly. 

I hear advertisements for concealed carry insurance stuff that talk about the cost of getting into a shoot or even the cost of just getting arrested and posting bond.  The case could get dismissed in 3 months and it could still cost $20,000.  In a couple cases I have heard of, the case was thrown out once actual evidence such as 911 calls, cameras, and such were actually reviewed.  The person still had to post bond and hire a lawyer which cost a lot of money.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2016, 03:03:27 PM »
If you realize that it is not about "justice" but about revenue generation then it all becomes clear.
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T.O.M.

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2016, 03:18:03 PM »
I would think a better plan is to just reduce the number of felonies and require court hearings to evaluate preliminary evidence more quickly. 

I hear advertisements for concealed carry insurance stuff that talk about the cost of getting into a shoot or even the cost of just getting arrested and posting bond.  The case could get dismissed in 3 months and it could still cost $20,000.  In a couple cases I have heard of, the case was thrown out once actual evidence such as 911 calls, cameras, and such were actually reviewed.  The person still had to post bond and hire a lawyer which cost a lot of money.

Part of the issue is that you have more and more appellate decisions which abuse trial court judges for dismissing cases - criminal and civil - before a jury gets to hear the evidence.  As a result, you see judges more and more cautious about throwing out cases, simply because they know there's a good chance that on appeal the court will send it back with instructions to let the case go to the jury.  The worst part is that a lot of these appellate decisions aren't based on whether or not the judge got it right, it's about allowing parties their day in court.  I swear sometimes as I read these decisions, it's like the courts are allowing jury trials to become like participation ribbons...everyone gets one.
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T.O.M.

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2016, 03:22:42 PM »
If you realize that it is not about "justice" but about revenue generation then it all becomes clear.


That would be all well and good, and probably allow me to get a replacement chair at my desk if it was true.  Bail money is held in escrow until the conclusion of the case, and then returned to the party who posted the bail.  The state can request that bond be forfeited only if you fail to appear for hearings.
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MechAg94

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2016, 06:10:19 PM »
It would be nice for additional ways to post bond without having to fork over 10% to a bail bond outfit. 

One of the guys who does the Polite Society Podcast has been making the rounds talking about an incident that happened to him earlier this year.  He was a truck driver trainer and was with a student.  Another driver was ticked at his student and was climbing up to the cab.  He yelled "I have a gun" and the guy turned around and left.  He never pulled out the gun.  He also never called 911 to report the incident (foolish).  The other guy did and lied saying he waved the gun around.  He was arrested and sat in jail for 3 days before posting bond.  Between posting bond and hiring a lawyer, I think it all cost around $20,000.  If the cops would have just viewed the security camera footage from the truck stop, they could have easily seen the other guy was lying, but they didn't do that.  It also turns out the prosecutors couldn't even locate the other driver who called in the complaint.  The case was reluctantly dropped after his lawyer pressed the issue. 

He was using it to point out the value of joining an outfit like the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network or Second Call Defense. 
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MechAg94

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2016, 06:13:09 PM »
Another example (maybe not a good example) is the judge in Waco demanding $1,000,000 bond for all the people arrested after that shooting a year or two ago.  I think after 1 year, they might have actually had bond hearings with all of them, but I am not sure. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2016, 06:15:26 PM »
That would be all well and good, and probably allow me to get a replacement chair at my desk if it was true.  Bail money is held in escrow until the conclusion of the case, and then returned to the party who posted the bail.  The state can request that bond be forfeited only if you fail to appear for hearings.
The biggest cost so I hear is bond is set very high for most people and the only way to get bonded out is to go to a bail bondmen and have to fork over 10% or so.  That is what I hear anyway.
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Ben

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2016, 06:30:24 PM »
So what is the legality / constitutionality of forcing someone, or giving them the option, to wear an ankle monitor vs posting bond? Because it seems if you're going to eliminate cash bonds for the poor, you should do so for the rich.

Bonds were created before monitoring technology. Wouldn't either serve the same purpose of what bonds were originally designed for? I'm no big brother cheerleader,  but just looking at the question. It seems like cash bonds could be argued to be not relevant or efficient given other means of "keeping someone in town". Can't law enforcement already put a flag on passports, credit cards, etc., to keep rich people from fleeing to Ecuador or wherever after they posted bond?
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De Selby

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2016, 06:59:08 PM »
The issue is a reasonable one to raise I think - there's nothing about the concept of bail that means it has to be cash.  You just need conditions that secure attendance at trial, and sometimes cash isn't that effective (note most bail bondsmen do not just rely on the cash - they use monitors, gather data, require check ins)

The parole and probation functions of most jurisdictions could adequately secure attendance at court without leaving people in jail because they can't afford $100 bail.

It's important to remember that people who are subject to this aren't necessarily criminals.  That's why we want to be sure we aren't imposing a de facto punishment just in preparation for a trial.

FWIW, cash bail is rare in Oz.  If there's a flight risk, bail is generally refused.  If there's not, it's usually given with reporting and activity conditions that minimise risk.  Breach of bail is a crime.
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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2016, 09:10:58 PM »
First thought: bail was always supposed to ensure the accused showed up for trial. It was not meant to be a penalty.

However, bail bondsman have distorted this.  If the judge sets bail at $100k, you and up paying 10%, $10k to the bondsman which you aren't ever getting back.  And yet, the state can afford to set such high bonds because of the bondsman.  Otherwise its a market thing, and how many normal people have $100k sitting around?  If the result of setting $100k bail was that everybody sat in jail, there wouldn't be space and judges would be forced to set levels that people could scrounge up.

Its not even as effective as pre-trial services, where they do things like call you the day before court to remind you. 

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2016, 11:03:04 PM »
First thought: bail was always supposed to ensure the accused showed up for trial. It was not meant to be a penalty.

However, bail bondsman have distorted this.  If the judge sets bail at $100k, you and up paying 10%, $10k to the bondsman which you aren't ever getting back.  And yet, the state can afford to set such high bonds because of the bondsman.  Otherwise its a market thing, and how many normal people have $100k sitting around?  If the result of setting $100k bail was that everybody sat in jail, there wouldn't be space and judges would be forced to set levels that people could scrounge up.

Its not even as effective as pre-trial services, where they do things like call you the day before court to remind you. 

Essentially what we've done is privatise pre-trial criminal suspect management
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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2016, 11:44:57 PM »
In Illinois there are no private bail bondsman.  You, your family, and or your friends have to come up with the 10% of the bail amount (If you don't show you then owe 100% of your bail).  If and when you do come to trial, the state keeps 1% of whatever you paid.  Which give the judges a false incentive to boost bail, to increase the funds raised that the state may keep.

Private bondsman is a better way to go.  No conflict of interest then. 
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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2016, 09:31:45 AM »
In the system I work in, the vast majority of cases have what we call a $5,000/Own Recognizance bail.  Means that the accused signs a form indicating that he/she will appear for all hearings, and failure to appear will result in a warrant being issued and the possibility of a fine of $5,000.  It also has conditions tied to it, such as reporting to Court Services (our name for pre-trial supervision officers and probation officers), no illegal drug use, drug testing, no contact with victim, etc., all depending on the charge.  In my experience, judges will look at a person's pretrial behavior in those cases as an indicator of how a person may do if placed on community control/probation.

We do not use electronic monitoring.  Reason why is that in our experience, all the monitor does is tell us when a person runs, as an alert goes out when they cut the strap for the monitor.  And, in general when a person cuts the strap and runs, it usually takes about half an hour before the right people get that information, so there's no chance of running out and catching the person before they run or do something stupid.  One case I recall, the woman cut the device off.  She wasn't planning to run, she was wanting to go see the 13 year old boy she was in love with for a hook-up.  Court services found her the next morning in bed with the boy, and she was happy because she figured she'd gotten pregnant.  In her thinking, pregnancy meant she couldn't be sent to prison.  She was wrong.
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Ben

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2016, 09:55:27 AM »

We do not use electronic monitoring.  Reason why is that in our experience, all the monitor does is tell us when a person runs, as an alert goes out when they cut the strap for the monitor.  And, in general when a person cuts the strap and runs, it usually takes about half an hour before the right people get that information, so there's no chance of running out and catching the person before they run or do something stupid. 

You guys are using the wrong kind of monitoring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbvX3elSaaY

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KD5NRH

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2016, 10:26:04 AM »
First thought: bail was always supposed to ensure the accused showed up for trial. It was not meant to be a penalty.

Lots of things that aren't supposed to be penalties are used that way now.  Legislatures need to be browbeaten into fixing that.  (Not that I suspect such a thing would ever actually happen short of a very bloody revolution, but it does need to happen.)

Quote
However, bail bondsman have distorted this.  If the judge sets bail at $100k, you and up paying 10%, $10k to the bondsman which you aren't ever getting back.  And yet, the state can afford to set such high bonds because of the bondsman.  Otherwise its a market thing, and how many normal people have $100k sitting around?  If the result of setting $100k bail was that everybody sat in jail, there wouldn't be space and judges would be forced to set levels that people could scrounge up.

Exactly.  Particularly bad when you have judges setting bail at 3+ years of the accused's pay on offenses that rarely net more than a couple months of actual jail time, if any.  Maybe your typical ghetto idiot would run on that, but the guy with a steady job and a lot of family nearby is unlikely to pack up and leave the state forever in an attempt to dodge getting 6-24 months of probation.  Even less likely if you get him turned out of the jail fast enough that he doesn't lose the steady job.

Perd Hapley

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2016, 10:28:57 AM »
One case I recall, the woman cut the device off.  She wasn't planning to run, she was wanting to go see the 13 year old boy she was in love with for a hook-up.  Court services found her the next morning in bed with the boy, and she was happy because she figured she'd gotten pregnant.  In her thinking, pregnancy meant she couldn't be sent to prison. She was wrong.


About being pregnant, about going to jail, or both?
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T.O.M.

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2016, 10:55:13 AM »

About being pregnant, about going to jail, or both?

About the pregnancy helping her avoid prison time for the sex offenses.  She gave birth in prison.
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MechAg94

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2016, 12:17:02 PM »

Exactly.  Particularly bad when you have judges setting bail at 3+ years of the accused's pay on offenses that rarely net more than a couple months of actual jail time, if any.  Maybe your typical ghetto idiot would run on that, but the guy with a steady job and a lot of family nearby is unlikely to pack up and leave the state forever in an attempt to dodge getting 6-24 months of probation.  Even less likely if you get him turned out of the jail fast enough that he doesn't lose the steady job.
And that is really where I was coming from.  Instead of spending your available funds hiring a lawyer, you have to burn it on bailing out of jail to avoid getting fired and general life destruction.  

There is a balanced way to do it in their somewhere.  I just don't think we do it very well.  I think little happens with the politicians because most people are either never arrested for anything serious or the people they hear about pretty much knew what they were getting into.  Few people are sympathetic about a drug dealer or armed robber being stuck in jail.

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Firethorn

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Re: No Cash Bail if You're Poor
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2016, 12:20:19 PM »
Maybe your typical ghetto idiot would run on that, but the guy with a steady job and a lot of family nearby is unlikely to pack up and leave the state forever in an attempt to dodge getting 6-24 months of probation.  Even less likely if you get him turned out of the jail fast enough that he doesn't lose the steady job.

And this is part of what 'pre-trial services' style parole looks at.

Dude has a family, owns a house, and otherwise has a 'lot' of resources he'd have to leave if he ran?  Odds are he won't run.