Author Topic: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month  (Read 3143 times)

BryanP

  • friendly hermit
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,808
National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« on: November 01, 2008, 09:03:37 AM »
Oh.  My.  God. 


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/31/politics/main4562416.shtml?tag=topStories;secondStory

National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month

CBS) This story was written by CBS News White House correspondent Mark Knoller

It’s the surge you won’t hear anyone boast about.

Never before in U.S. history has the national debt increased as much and as rapidly as it has over the past month.

Since September 30, the day the national debt hit the $10-trillion mark for the first time, the government has run up over $500 billion in new debt.

That’s more than the federal deficit for the entire 2008 fiscal year, which ended September 30. And it’s the most rapid increase in the national debt ever: over half a trillion dollars in less than a month - 23 days to be exact.

The government’s latest calculation of the national debt stands at $10,530,893,033,778.21 - that’s $10.5-trillion for short. It took less than four months for it to rocket to that level from $9.5 trillion on July 21.

Less than four months! To put it in perspective, consider this: it took the U.S. government over four decades, from 1940 to 1982, to run up its first trillion dollars of debt.

The second and third trillions were racked up much more quickly - each in just four years. And it only took from 1990 to 1992 for the national debt to hit $4 trillion.

On the day President Bush was sworn in, the debt stood at $5.7 trillion. Less than eight years later, the it’s within days of having swelled $5 trillion dollars on his watch - an embarrassing milestone for a president who considers himself a conservative and an advocate of fiscal discipline.

What’s to blame for the most recent surge in the debt? Above all else, it’s the federal government's response to the financial crisis.

“It’s the Supplementary Financing Program being run by Treasury to provide cash for the Federal Reserve,” says Corrine Hirsh, spokeswoman for the White House Office of Management and Budget.

By that, she means the billions of dollars disbursed by the Fed to keep the financial markets at home and abroad from collapsing. It includes the $124 billion used to keep insurance industry giant American International Group from going bust.

And this week, the Treasury Department started to spend the $700 billion dollars in the congressionally authorized bailout program, so the national debt can be expected to soar even more rapidly in the coming months.

But on January 20, it becomes another president’s problem. And unless he slashes federal spending or enacts major tax hikes, the ballooning deficit and debt leave no money for any of the big ticket programs he's promised to deliver.

Instead, the 44th president will have to deal with the problem of how to pay the interest on the expanding debt. If past practice holds, it’s a good bet the government will just borrow the money.
"Inaccurately attributed quotes are the bane of the internet" - Abraham Lincoln

Standing Wolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,978
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2008, 11:12:35 AM »
Well, heck, yes. You can just borrow from Visa to pay Master Card, and the borrow from Master Card to pay Visa.
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.

FTA84

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 364
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2008, 02:37:27 PM »
So what happens when a country goes bankrupt?

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2008, 02:42:01 PM »
Print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print ....

...HAY WHY DO WE HAVE INFLATION? GUYS?

Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

  • Webley Juggler
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,415
  • All I got is a fistful of shekels
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2008, 02:48:46 PM »
And if we don't pay up, what happens? Somebody repossesses Puerto Rico?

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2008, 02:52:46 PM »
And if we don't pay up, what happens? Somebody repossesses Puerto Rico?

We go from an AA to an A or below. It would be very hard for American companies to secure loans from foreign investors. US bonds would not be seen as a very good investment.

That would be Bad.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2008, 03:10:23 PM »
Print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print ....

...HAY WHY DO WE HAVE INFLATION? GUYS?

I'm waiting for Manedwolf to use the words "We're living beyond our means."
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2008, 03:22:20 PM »
I'm waiting for Manedwolf to use the words "We're living beyond our means."

No. It's just government intervention screwing up what would have been a market correction.

YES some people who should have not bought homes would lose them.

THAT IS LIFE. LIFE IS HARD. Stupid should hurt!

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2008, 03:23:58 PM »
No. It's just government intervention screwing up what would have been a market correction.

YES some people who should have not bought homes would lose them.

THAT IS LIFE. LIFE IS HARD. Stupid should hurt!

Yes. But the US government IS living beyond its means,. and has been for a while.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Waitone

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,133
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2008, 05:11:41 PM »
Quote
Print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print ....
Speaking of inflation
Quote
http://www.garynorth.com/public/4178.cfm
<snip>
October 24, 2008

I have never seen anything like this. The adjusted monetary base over the last eight weeks has risen at 341% per annum. The increase in the monetary base is $300 billion
</snip>
Anyone know any good books on the Weinmar Republic?
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay, Scottish journalist, circa 1841

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it." - John Lennon

Matthew Carberry

  • Formerly carebear
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,281
  • Fiat justitia, pereat mundus
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2008, 05:19:59 PM »
Speaking of inflationAnyone know any good books on the Weinmar Republic?

You mean the Weimaraner Republic?

It had the legs to go the distance.
"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

nobody's_hero

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 189
  • Fringe (Constitutionalist)
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2008, 08:14:30 PM »
Print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print print ....

...HAY WHY DO WE HAVE INFLATION? GUYS?

Inflation? Impossible. At least, that's what I read here at APS when I first voiced my concern that this 'bail-out' was a really bad idea. Also, this won't come back to somehow bite the taxpayers in their bums. =|

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2008, 04:56:18 AM »
And if we don't pay up, what happens? Somebody repossesses Puerto Rico?

The US government works just like you or I in the most simple form.  The US government takes in money.  US government spends money. 

When the US government spends more than it takes it, it floats bonds to mostly cover the gap.  They greatly vary in name (series), yield and term, but in short, the US government pays folks to loan them money.  Otherwise, no sane person would lend the US government money.  You might ask, why would people invest 10 plus TRILLION dollars into the US government's hands?   Because the US government has NEVER, NOT ONCE messed with their T-bills.  They'll lie about anything and everything under the sun before they do one thing out of line with a t-bill.  It's the only virtually risk free investment on the planet.  If you want to store lots of money for a rainy day, you wanted no risk, and you want it to absolutely be there when you need it, you bought a t-bill.

If the US government defaults on a single t-bill, they are no longer the absolute perfect place to park your money.  Folks will move hundreds of billions to another safer bond or national t-bill.  Norway has historically known to be safe, Australia and Switzerland also. 

And yes, folks could sue the US government for breach of contract.   The courts should and probably would side with the folks suing for breach of contract.  If the Executive branch complies, things would even out after the T-bill takes a knock for a few weeks/months/years/whatever.  If the Executive branch ignored the court, then no one would buy another T-bill and the price drops like a rock because everyone world wide would scramble to offload their T-bills at a discount in hopes of recovering some of their money. 

Again, we go back to the purpose of treasury bills.  If the government spends more money than it takes in, it must borrow the difference.  If no one is willing to lend the Treasury money, the government has no more money to spend.  Just like if you can't get credit and have no money, you cannot buy anything.  Governments have the option of 'printing more money', but if they were really flat broke and tried to make up the difference just by printing more money...  You get another Weimar Republic.  The US dollar becomes quickly worthless.  Even printing more money doesn't work on a medium to long term basis, because eventually no one accepts it.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2008, 06:36:33 AM »
You forget that the money supply is not limited to physical green bills. The economists include the outstanding debt of various forms and other kinds of 'virtual money' as part of the complex money supply. As such, issuing T-bonds is ALSO inflationary.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2008, 03:57:44 PM »
When economists refer to "printing money" they are not just referring to physical bills, no. It's simply a catchall term.

BryanP

  • friendly hermit
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,808
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2008, 06:03:04 PM »
Didn't mean to be a drive-by poster.  I put this up and then I've been a bit busy.

This annoys me to no end.  Especially since, as far as I'm concerned, there is no real difference between deficit spending and raising taxes. 
"Inaccurately attributed quotes are the bane of the internet" - Abraham Lincoln

ilbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,546
    • Bob's blog
Re: National Debt Soars $500B In Under A Month
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2008, 07:47:49 PM »
Quote
But on January 20, it becomes another president’s problem. And unless he slashes federal spending or enacts major tax hikes, the ballooning deficit and debt leave no money for any of the big ticket programs he's promised to deliver.

They just do not get it at all, do they. Tax hikes only produce tax revenue increases for a short period of time.
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.