Post by: Monkeyleg on September 26, 2006, 07:33:31 PM
After writing that thread, I emailed my boss from 20+ years ago (he was the nice guy, not the bitch), and asked him to give me a phone call to just talk about old times, if he was up to doing so.
Well, he called today, and we talked for nearly two hours--about photography, about the old days at his studio, about his now ex-wife, and everything else.
Here's what really hit me, after all we'd talked about: I don't know how many marriages he's been through. He may be on his second, or third.
But his bitch of an ex-wife is now on her fourth.
And her brother is now on his fifth marriage.
Just how big a cluebat do you need to hit someone with to make him or her realize that: a) he or she could probably achieved the same goals at a Super 8; b) fidelity isn't exactly in that person's DNA, and; c) he or she isn't really liked by what I would call "normal people?"
One of the funniest moments in my talk with my ex-boss was when he asked me what number marriage I was on.
I said, "what?"
He said," second, third?"
I said, "no, #1. Last June was 29 years of marriage, and 38 years since I met my wife."
I guess some people trade marriages the way kids trade baseball cards.
Post by: Northwoods on September 26, 2006, 07:46:49 PM
Anyway, my MIL is on marriage 4. First was a dumb mistake at like 17 and lasted a couple months. Then my FIL. That one lasted 13 years or so, and then she left him (he became abusive to her after they had kids). Then #3 was cut short after about 5 years by a aneurysm (he was all of 52 at the time). Can't really blame her for that one ending. Her current hubby is on marriage #3, but they've been together now for 10 years. Surprised me since they tied the knot only 2 months after they met, but hey, it's worked for them so far.
Post by: wingnutx on September 26, 2006, 07:47:48 PM
Getting sober surely helped.
Post by: Monkeyleg on September 26, 2006, 07:53:36 PM
I don't know what to say beyond that, except that things were just different when they grew up, and they taught me some of those things.
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on September 26, 2006, 08:02:41 PM
Post by: SomeKid on September 26, 2006, 08:38:18 PM
Me? 0. Staying that way. Women are for fun, not living with.
Post by: Monkeyleg on September 26, 2006, 08:47:01 PM
You'll be happy the rest of your life.
Post by: mtnbkr on September 27, 2006, 02:33:39 AM
My parents have been together for 34 years.
My wife's parents have been together for about the same.
My dad's parents were together for 58 years before my grandmother passed away last month.
My mom's parents were together for probably 25 years or more before my grandfather passed away 27 years ago.
My wife's maternal grandparents have been together for nearly 70years.
My wife's paternal grandparents have been together for close to 60 years I think.
Various aunts and uncles on both sides have been together for 17+ years.
We've been together for 5 so far, but we dated for 10 prior.
Chris
Post by: mfree on September 27, 2006, 02:48:28 AM
I don't even date anymore, there's no time left out of my week nor cash in the general fund to play some woman's silly "buy me this darling or I won't love you" game.
Post by: Brian Williams on September 27, 2006, 02:55:25 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on September 27, 2006, 02:56:32 AM
Quote
"buy me this darling or I won't love you"
You're hanging around the wrong women if that's the game they're playing.Chris
Post by: lee n. field on September 27, 2006, 03:49:45 AM
Quote
"buy me this darling or I won't love you"
You're hanging around the wrong women if that's the game they're playing.
That's what you call a "ho", right?
You're hanging around the wrong women if that's the game they're playing.
Post by: The Rabbi on September 27, 2006, 04:10:08 AM
Quote from: Monkeyleg
Just for point of reference: last month, my parents (mother 88 years old, father 89 years old), celebrated their 69th anniversary.
I don't know what to say beyond that, except that things were just different when they grew up, and they taught me some of those things.
There's a joke about an elderly couple who celebrated their 75th wedding anniversary. The next day they went to their lawyer to see about a divorce. The lawyer asked them, after 75 years why do you want a divorce now? They answered "we were just waiting until the children were dead."I don't know what to say beyond that, except that things were just different when they grew up, and they taught me some of those things.
Married 16 years, same woman, first marriage for both of us.
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on September 27, 2006, 06:09:21 AM
We're going to a 70th wedding anniversary for the parents of some friends next weekend.
I like what Zig Ziglar once said about marriage:
"You know, the redhead and I have been married 32 years and never once have we thought about divorce.
...oh, murder, now that crosses our minds all the time, but NEVER divorce."
Some people are just wired to stay together.
Isn't it true that if you come from a divorced mom & dad, you're more likely to do so yourself?
Post by: 41 Redhawk on September 27, 2006, 06:11:01 AM
Marriage is far more about commitment than love.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 27, 2006, 06:21:57 AM
Quote from: Felonious Fig
Some people are just wired to stay together.
Isn't it true that if you come from a divorced mom & dad, you're more likely to do so yourself?
Our ideas about family usually come from our own family. That's why child abuse and other forms of domestic violence pass from one generation to the next. More specifically, if a man treats his wife and daughter(s) well, the daughters expect such treatment from their romantic partners, and won't settle for an uncaring or abusive man. It is a theory of mine, that a big reason for promiscuity among young women today is the lack of a father in the household. Without proper attention from their fathers, they are looking for affection in all the wrong places, and trading way too much to get it. Women seem to tend to a low self-image, and will settle for less without proper positive affirmation. Isn't it true that if you come from a divorced mom & dad, you're more likely to do so yourself?
Edit: Yeah, guys usually are promiscuous, but the girls determine how far the boys can go.
Having said all that about family, the culture at large affects families as well. In a culture where divorce is socially acceptable, it becomes the easy way out. Loving a person can be difficult. And why worry about long-term compatability when you can get out so easily?
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on September 27, 2006, 06:46:19 AM
My parents are still together, neither of hers are (or were).
6 years next month.
Oh, and her first? He met his first "girlfriend" on their honeymoon.
Post by: AJ Dual on September 27, 2006, 06:54:06 AM
All of our parents are divorced. Mine after 5 years when I was only two. Semi-amicable, mom had to go "find herself".
My FIL left after 20 years when my wife and BIL were in college.
All are re-married, and second marriages seem to be holding.
I think that it's colored our attitudes though. Either of us would have to be an axe murderer, a junkie, or incarcerated felon, or whatnot before we'd leave the other. So perhaps it's not for some wonderful feeling of comittment, but I think we'll go the distance...
Post by: BozemanMT on September 27, 2006, 06:57:40 AM
Quote from: Monkeyleg
Just for point of reference: last month, my parents (mother 88 years old, father 89 years old), celebrated their 69th anniversary.
I don't know what to say beyond that, except that things were just different when they grew up, and they taught me some of those things.
wow!!!!!!!!1I don't know what to say beyond that, except that things were just different when they grew up, and they taught me some of those things.
that's impressive
congrats to them both.
Post by: The Rabbi on September 27, 2006, 07:18:27 AM
Quote from: Felonious Fig
Isn't it true that if you come from a divorced mom & dad, you're more likely to do so yourself?
Probably. People tend to replicate patterns they saw at home. The key word is tend.My parents had a horrible messy knock-down-drag-out divorce when I was 6. The animosity lasted 15 years until my father died. I was bound and determined not to repeat that and worked very very hard on my marriage. Similarly with abused children etc, people can outgrow their situations.
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on September 27, 2006, 07:57:56 AM
My answer? "She knows what DOESN'T work, now doesn't she? She also knows that she does not want that!"
Post by: USP45usp on September 27, 2006, 08:19:46 AM
Never met the right woman, yet (maybe, hopefully?, maybe never?). If I marry it is for life, that means if she wants a divorce then she will have to kill me (which is why I may hire a food taster if ever married
).I guess some people just aren't cut out for marriage, or having kids. Don't know if I am one of those or not. I've seen/heard of people getting married in their late 40's so I may still have a chance.
The way I figure it, if God wants me to have a wife He will issue me one lol.
For those on their first, or their second that has lasted so far, I congradulate you. Marriage now days is like Monkey said, it's like kids trading baseball cards
.
Post by: Monkeyleg on September 27, 2006, 12:35:39 PM
I was very cautious about getting married. My brother suffered a nervous breakdown after his divorce. I was just fifteen at the time, and he had the breakdown at my folk's house, right in front of me. I scared the daylights out of me to see it.
When I went to visit him in the mental ward, he was totally out of it. Went through shock therapy and everything else.
That made me determined to go into marriage ONLY if I was certain that it would work.
Funny thing is, my best friend always told me that my marriage wouldn't last, because my wife and I fought so much.
We did, but we apologized to each other even better.
Post by: Firethorn on September 27, 2006, 12:40:20 PM
"Most marriages end in divorce, but most married people never divorce"
It's like the female surgeon riddles.
What it turns out is that you're statistically far more likely to divorce again if you've already had one. I knew a guy who had been divorced eight times. So he counts in the divorce rate coloumn eight times, while those of you who've never divorced only get counted once.
Do it right the first time.
Post by: The Rabbi on September 27, 2006, 01:09:08 PM
Quote from: Firethorn
I knew a guy who had been divorced eight times.
I often think to tell people in that situation: "next time get a goldfish. With a goldfish you can just flush them down the toilet when you get tired of them."
Post by: Guest on September 27, 2006, 02:57:47 PM
I'm not opposed to marriage and can't say without a doubt that I'd never do it again but if I did, it would be because I truly wanted to be married and not because I need to conform to anything. So far, I'm a lot happier single than I can imagine being with anyone else.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 27, 2006, 05:32:22 PM
Barbara, if you were married, it's not your happiness I would be most in doubt of.
Post by: CAnnoneer on September 27, 2006, 05:39:46 PM
I think fistful is fundamentally right about female expectations being based on the father. I'd go further to say that the level of control a woman projects onto her mate often matches the level of control her mother projected on her father. So, when you look for a wife, pay attention to how her parents interact because that is what she will likely replay with you.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 27, 2006, 06:01:04 PM
Post by: grampster on September 27, 2006, 07:06:07 PM
What is a good marriage and what makes it last? I just erased about 10 paragraphs describing that. The long and short of it is that it's a promise. You looked your beloved in the eye and made a promise. So, you keep your word. If you fail to do that, you will have a millstone around your neck, even if you salvage the relationship. Better to keep your word than to live with the regret that you betrayed your word. Simple as that.
For me, after 40 years, it is incomprehensible that I be without the anchor in my life.
Post by: Unisaw on September 27, 2006, 07:45:38 PM
Post by: LadySmith on September 27, 2006, 10:16:22 PM
Post by: Guest on September 28, 2006, 12:06:04 AM
Quote
Barbara, if you were married, it's not your happiness I would be most in doubt of.
Ah, but my happiness is what's important. 
Post by: Antibubba on September 28, 2006, 03:10:34 AM
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 28, 2006, 03:26:16 AM
Post by: Monkeyleg on September 28, 2006, 12:27:35 PM
Have to agree on the trust issue.
Back in 1990 or so, I started taking my solo motorcycle trips out west. My landlord, who was pretty much of a lecherous type, said, "my wife would never let me go on a trip like that by myself!"
I answered, "and I don't blame her, Roger. But my wife knows she can trust me."
Post by: Guest on September 28, 2006, 02:03:17 PM
Post by: thebaldguy on September 28, 2006, 02:37:12 PM
Then my two sisters both got divorced - not their fault, of course. Then I laid into them about commitment.
They don't say squat anymore.
Here's a joke that the single girls hate. I love it.
Q: Do you know where diamonds come from?
A: You put a man under heat and pressure until he produces one.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 28, 2006, 02:40:24 PM
Post by: thebaldguy on September 28, 2006, 02:42:10 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 28, 2006, 02:46:37 PM
Post by: thebaldguy on September 28, 2006, 02:48:01 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 28, 2006, 02:55:08 PM
In times past, there were definite social disadvantages to shacking up, but since no one cares about marriage anymore, maybe it's not worth as much.
Post by: thebaldguy on September 28, 2006, 03:35:01 PM
I guess this hit a sore spot. I have run into way too many people who seem to think they're better than me because they believe in marriage. Especially the women. The forcing of their morals upon my relationship pisses me off. They seem to imply that I am using her and don't care about her. A piece of paper doesn't mean squat. How many married couples have gotten divorced? How many of those high and mighty married couples cheat on each other? And they tell me I'm not committed...
My relationship is my business. Right wing authoritarians, fundamentalist religous zealots, and high and mighty moral authoritarians don't push your morals on us. I don't tell people they're wrong for being married. They have no right to tell me I'm wrong about my relationship.
Post by: Zed on September 28, 2006, 04:31:09 PM
not sure I want to know how that is going to turn out...
Post by: CAnnoneer on September 28, 2006, 05:40:34 PM
Quote from: thebaldguy
What is the advantage of being married?
Tax breaks? Less paperwork in case of snafus?
Post by: Standing Wolf on September 28, 2006, 05:50:36 PM
Guns seem to be somewhat less demanding.
Post by: Antibubba on September 28, 2006, 06:49:33 PM
Quote
No, Fistful, you have to look at things in a positive way. They'd be BubbaBarbara.
Somehow, I suspect it would be "Boss" and Whassisname". :/
Post by: Monkeyleg on September 28, 2006, 07:05:01 PM
Quote from: Antibubba
Quote
No, Fistful, you have to look at things in a positive way. They'd be BubbaBarbara.
Somehow, I suspect it would be "Boss" and Whassisname". :/"Guns somehow seem to be less demanding."
Probably true.
But, I can't remember the last time my guns washed the dishes, or made me a pork roast with mashed potatoes and gravy, or snuggled up to me to keep warm.
And I really can't remember the last time I had to wipe my wife down with gun oil.
Post by: Perd Hapley on September 28, 2006, 07:31:38 PM
Quote
A piece of paper doesn't mean squat. How many married couples have gotten divorced? How many of those high and mighty married couples cheat on each other? And they tell me I'm not committed...
I find that is the real problem - that marriage means so little to so many people any more, that it is hard to blame you. If it's just a piece of paper to you, perhaps you are right to forego it.
Post by: Monkeyleg on September 28, 2006, 08:25:55 PM
My wife only wipes me down with dairy products.
(I'M KIDDING AGAIN!).
thebaldguy, a piece of paper is a piece of paper. It's no stronger a shield against a bullet than a restraining order, and no more a guarantee of matrimonial happiness than whatever warranty comes with the diamond ring.
In fact, I have my own observation: the larger the diamond on the wedding ring, the shorter will be the marriage. I base that observation only on the dozens of friends my wife and I have had, as well as the dozens or more weddings we photographed back in the 1980's.
In an earlier post, I mentioned that my parents just celebrated their 69th wedding anniversary.
There was a lot of give-and-take that made that happen. My mother was extremely close to her sisters. When GM transferred my dad from Flint, MI over here to MKE, WI, there was a promise my dad made: my mother would be able to go visit her sisters in Flint as often as the family budget allowed. And she did visit. By plane, car, or by ferry, she crossed the lake probably every couple of months to be with her sisters.
I've made promises to my own wife as well, and have only fallen short on a couple of them. I'll get around to fixing those soon.
thebaldguy, I'm not trying to push my ideas of marriage on you. Far from it. If you're happy, I'm happy. I'm just saying that I'm very happy with the choice I made.
Maybe three years ago, I was out on my motorcyle, and stopped at one of my usual, notorious biker bars to check out the awesome custom bikes.
I got into a conversation with a grizzled old rider, and he had to cut the conversation short. He said, "I gotta be over in Waterford at 2 pm. This babe I know said she was going to give me a ______."
That comment cut multiple ways. First, I can't imagine a time arrangement. Nor can I imagine anything else that comes with such time arrangements.
I have my friend, confidant, and lover for life.
If you have something that works better for you, know that I won't try to stop you.
I won't get in your way if you don't get in mine.
Post by: Guest on September 29, 2006, 12:09:48 AM
Quote
Somehow, I suspect it would be "Boss" and Whassisname".
Exhibit A in why I don't get married.
Post by: stevelyn on September 29, 2006, 03:19:48 AM
Marriage isn't something I'm going to do again. That $^!t can get expensive.
Post by: grampster on September 29, 2006, 05:37:15 AM
Regarding the size of the diamond. I gave Swmbo a rather unique looking ring that she picked out. It had just a little diamond chip settled in the middle. It cost me $65.00 in 1966. (That was about a weeks pay on the PD where I was working)
I think that's when it hit me that she was a keeper; 40 years in 9 days.
Post by: French G. on September 29, 2006, 05:41:14 AM
Post by: thebaldguy on September 29, 2006, 05:52:55 PM
In the eyes of the government, a marriage license is a legal document that says you are now responsible for each others' debts. No more, no less. I guess over time I've been jaded by watching other people have marriage problems. I laugh when people point out how those older people stayed together all those years.
Think about this for a minute. Back then, divorce was a bad thing. Something to be ashamed of. Abused spouses often stayed with their abusers, afraid to leave. The shame of divorce was worse than the physical/mental abuse. Is that a good reason to stay married? I think not. Fear is not a good reason to stay married. I think divorce may be a good thing for some.
I run into lots of young women who are in love with getting married. They like the ideas of diamond rings, gifts and presents, and being the princess and center of attention. When the party's over, the real work starts. Some of the guys they married are almost coerced into marriage. As you probably guessed, the relationship doesn't last long. I worked with such a woman who would taunt me with phrases like, "if you really loved her, you'd marry her", and "I knew he loved me when we were at the altar with all our friends and family there". They had a big expensive lavish wedding, and invited the office except for me. She milked hundreds of people for gifts.
The marriage lasted less than a year. I resisted the urge to shove her commitment comments back in her face. She never talked much to me after her divorce. Marriage does not always mean happiness and commitment forever. People forget that. That being said, my girlfriend and I have been together longer than many married couples.
If you believe in marriage, fine. Good for you. But keep morality judgements about my relationship to yourself. Don't consider me immoral because I live with my girl without a church/state approved relationship. I've had born again christian bosses look down at me because I live with my girlfriend.
Oh, and about the diamond size comment, I totally agree. I have made note about the divorce rate and the wearing of princess style tierras at weddings. If a bride wears a tierra, there's a good chance there will be problems down the road.
Post by: Monkeyleg on September 29, 2006, 06:22:32 PM
thebaldguy, I suspect that the humungous diamonds are more a statement about couples' financial status (or perceived status) than with the level of committment.
No, strike that last paragraph. I'm certain about that motivation.
Grampster's post about the ring he bought for his wife echoes my experience. My wife's ring is a 1/4 carat diamond. But the ring itself is beautiful, looks like an antique, and she's always had people stop and take a second look, or make comments. It was rather inexpensive ($500 in 1977), but it's every bit her taste.
And I don't consider your lifestyle "immoral." My wife and I lived together for several years before she finally started telegraphing hints that we should get legal. And, after everything had settled down, it seemed like a good idea.
There's one aspect about living together versus being marriage that I thought about years back. When living together, if things go south, all one has to do is say, "I'm out of here. Do you want the dog?"
Once married, there's all the legal entanglements.
So, by simply living together, it's possible that relationship may be more giving and more loving, because there's always the possibility of a one-hour disolvement.
All that, and now $3.50, will get you a cup of coffee.
Post by: thebaldguy on September 29, 2006, 06:48:14 PM
from the Simpsons:
"Diamonds. Because money equals love."
or from The Family Guy, a parody of the DeBeers diamond commerical:
"Diamonds...she'll pretty much have to."
$3.50 for a cup of coffee? I think not! I grind my own beans and make great coffee for less than 15 cents a cup! I refuse to pay coffee shop prices.
Post by: Oleg Volk on September 29, 2006, 11:51:15 PM
(The nicest person I dated was also not at all compatible with me for cohabitation or marriage.)
Post by: 280plus on September 30, 2006, 12:21:32 AM
Post by: mtnbkr on September 30, 2006, 02:10:54 AM
Quote from: 280plus
I didn't buy my wife (#2) the biggest diamond on the shelf but it's one step away from being the whitest. So it is a rare gem, just like her.
She's looking over your shoulder isn't she? Chris
Post by: 280plus on September 30, 2006, 03:18:09 AM
Post by: grislyatoms on September 30, 2006, 12:42:47 PM
Folks always say "You must be lonely/gay/antisocial/mental" etc. etc. ad nauseam. "What a lonely life you must lead."
Blech. Some folks think everyone MUST have that "special someone" or life's not worth living. Blech once again.
Folks on occasion sometimes say, "Well, that's just weird." Ahh, now a comment to which I can give creedence.
I guess preferring quiet solitude to another's company IS weird. So be it, but that's me, and in the words of that famous spinach eatin' sailor, "I yams what I yams!"
Post by: theCZ on September 30, 2006, 03:38:39 PM
Post by: Guest on September 30, 2006, 04:27:57 PM
Post by: Sindawe on September 30, 2006, 04:47:38 PM
Quote
Marriage #2, but bride #1.
I occasionally have nightmares like that. <<I'm with grislyatoms on the marriage thing. Did it once, and fortunately there was little property to divide and no issue to fight about custody and support over. The only thing I regret loosing out of that was the PCjr her father gave us. I LIKED that little machine, even though it took two floppy disks and creating a RAM-disk to load an early verson of QModem on it.
Others ask about the sex-life of a commited bachelor. Eh, I've never been ruled by my gonads, unlike the majority of my peers (who now have child support and the like to worry over). Lonely? I have friends and family to take care of that. Sleeping alone? Cats don't steal the covers and with four in the current herd, the bed is always warm.
Post by: grislyatoms on October 01, 2006, 04:17:12 AM
Quote from: Barbara
I'm going to marry grislyatoms.
Cool! I'm free on Tuesday! Can my kiddo be the flower girl?Wow, now I feel all warm and fuzzy.
Post by: The Rabbi on October 01, 2006, 04:19:13 AM
Post by: Antibubba on October 01, 2006, 08:01:49 AM
Quote
If you have kids, would they be called "GrislyBars"?
Only the sons, Rabbi. The daughters would be "GrislyBats"!
Post by: Guest on October 01, 2006, 01:45:55 PM