United Airlines initiates self-immolation

[RevDisk]

Are the airlines legally prohibited from offering cash?

The problem (for the airlines) is that cash incentives mean paying the actual value of the cash. Giving someone a ticket "worth" $800 means the face value of the ticket, not the actual cost to the airline for letting the person sit in that seat on some future flight. I have no idea what the profit margin is on a seat, but maybe that $800 voucher (if redeemed) ends up only costing the airline $500 or so.

They are legally REQUIRED to pay cash for involuntary kicking folks off the plane. And there are laws on the compensation depending on how long it takes. You have to request cash rather than voucher (they will generally not tell you cash is an option), and if you're smart, you demand a check on the spot. And get proof that you are being involuntarily kicked off the plane. Max is only $1350 however. It's federal law, and not optional.

For voluntary people opting off the plane... No regulation. They virtually always offer you vouchers, that come with restrictions and blackout periods. If you're smart, you go with a check. On the spot.

[KD5NRH]

They will be ok the government will dump a bunch of our money into them.

One can hope Trump knows the value of a bad example to the competition.  Hang their corpse out by the gate for the others to learn from.

[Andiron]

They are legally REQUIRED to pay cash for involuntary kicking folks off the plane. And there are laws on the compensation depending on how long it takes. You have to request cash rather than voucher (they will generally not tell you cash is an option), and if you're smart, you demand a check on the spot. And get proof that you are being involuntarily kicked off the plane. Max is only $1350 however. It's federal law, and not optional.

For voluntary people opting off the plane... No regulation. They virtually always offer you vouchers, that come with restrictions and blackout periods. If you're smart, you go with a check. On the spot.

Source for that one?  I don't fly anymore than I have to,  but that would be a handy thing to cite if needed.

[just Warren]

Which part of the doctor's fight or flight response was triggered here?

[RevDisk]

Source for that one?  I don't fly anymore than I have to,  but that would be a handy thing to cite if needed.

https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights

[Scout26]

Having dealt with this (not the pax part, but the need a crew ASAP part), we'd have planes mechanical on the ground.  Get the mechanics working to fix whatever was broken.  Meanwhile, the crew due to fly the plane is going to be out of hours before scheduled landing time at destination.  Need to get a new crew with hours available.   Or perhaps there was weather somewhere that caused the crew that was supposed to fly to run out of hours.   The flight hours rules are DoT regs.  You know to keep your ass safe from over-tired pilots that have been flying 24-7 without sleep.  Same DoT regs that govern how many hours truckers can drive in a day/week.  You know to keep 80,000 lbs trucks from being driven by hopped up, amphetamine filled, sleep deprived maniacs.

That's sounds like what happened here.   They went to the max offer (IIRC 400% of ticket price or in this case $800), and no one bit.  Now the Airline has a choice.  Inconvenience 4 people at ORD or 40-50 or even more people in L-ville.  

Not to mention that Doc *expletive deleted*bag was screwing with the 40-50 people on the plane he was on.  His antics caused a delay that may have costed those 40-50 people on his plane to miss connections.  

And yeah, he's a *expletive deleted*bag.  "I'm a physician."  I'm more important the the rest of you peons.  I'm ready to barf at the number of people that went into "They shouldn't bump a doctor, He's important !!"  Nope, he's just like everyone else on that plane, no better, no worst.  He played bump-off bingo and lost.

Plus, let's not lose sight of the entire Federal Felony he committed.  You know the one they clearly state before every flight.  About tampering with the bathroom smoke detectors not following the instructions of the crew.  That's why the police were called.  

and finally:

IT WAS NOT OVERBOOKED

contrary to what has been repeated in the media.   The airline needed to re-position a crew.  That takes priority over everything (if you read the fine print that you agree to when you click on "I accept", when you purchase your ticket.)   *expletive deleted*it happens, if they don't get enough people to accept the goodies offered to be bumped, then the computer gets to pick.  Those 40-50 people all took their chances, 4 lost.  3 accepted the results, grabbed their lovely parting gifts and went on their way.  One decided he was more damn important then everyone on at least 2 aircraft.   *expletive deleted*ck him.

And yeah, I've been bumped.  Even by my own damn company.  (Airborne Express, supposed to go to Wilmington for training and a meeting in the jumpseat in DC-8.  They needed a crew, so I get left on the tarmac...sucked to be me.)

And got bumped two summers ago going to Charleston (voluntary as I was the last check-in).  Got $800 from SWA and flew out 2 hours later.   Well worth it.    


And guess what.  Now flight delays are going to rise, because when (not if) a situation like this arises again, people are going to play lawsuit lottery.  (Doc *expletive deleted*bag says that to whomever he is speaking with on his phone, "Make a lawsuit against United" moments before the more famous video; when the United folks and Chicago Aviation Police were explaining the situation to him, before they put the Haebeus Grabbus on his dumb ass).  

And what a *expletive deleted*tard.  Not only was he willing to go up against the police, but the Chicago Aviation Police, which are off-duty Chicago PD.  He must not watch the news...

The should arrest his ass the minute he walks out of the hospital.  Oh, that's another thing.  All those people that are screaming "What about his patients on Monday".  Well, it's *expletive deleted*ing Thursday, and Doc Dumbass *expletive deleted*bag is still in the hospital here in Chicago.  So that's four day's worth of patients he's not seeing, screwing up their lives, instead of one days (or less).   Self-centered, self important, self righteous prick.

Yeah, and United's stock is pretty much recovered.  Down no more than usual fluctuations in that stock.

[Hawkmoon]

You offer some valid points, Scout. On the flip side -- what time did that replacement crew need to be in Louisville, and when did the flight finally arrive there after the delay of taking the guy off the plane (twice), then disembarking the entire passenger list to scrub the plane, then re-boarding everyone? Yes, you can blame all that on the doctor for being a jerk, and there's some validity to that (okay, even a lot of validity). But ... that crew still probably didn't get to Louisville in time for whatever flight they were supposed to be flying.

And I still haven't seen a single article that says United followed its printed bumping priority scheme in choosing the doctor. It sounds more like they used the computer to pull a name at random, and that's not what the contract says.

In other news, United has a new policy: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-united-boarding-20170412-story.html

Oscar now says he felt "shame" when he watched the video. That alleged shame was not well expressed in his initial high-five memo to the airline's employees immediate following the incident. United must be working with a professional damage control consultant. I doubt Oscar Munoz has ever felt a moment of shame in his entire life.

Comments on the article:

“Eliminating empty seats is a good idea because it keeps fares down,” he said. “People don’t like it because it’s crowded, but still, they care more about the price than anything.”

Perhaps some passengers care more about the price than anything, but I doubt it. People are already upset about shrinking seats, shrinking seat pitch, additional charges for carry-on items and checked bags, deteriorating (or disappearing) food, and the general hassle of flying. I seriously doubt if anyone would care at all if ticket prices were $5 or $10 higher across the board if the airline industry would reverse the current trend toward making coach class into a flying cattle car.

Rather than changing policies on overbooking, airlines should adjust their compensation policies to get more volunteers to take a later flight, he said. Currently, federal rules cap the compensation amount that airlines can pay for involuntary bumping at $1,350.

Do the federal regulations "cap" the compensation at $1,350, or is that simple the maximum they are required to pay? Would the federal government actually sanction an airline for offering $1,500 or $2,000 to induce volunteers for bumping?

[wmenorr67]

Heard last night, may have already been brought up, but everyone on that flight was reimbursed for the price of their ticket.

[Fly320s]

Perhaps some passengers care more about the price than anything, but I doubt it.

Look at the world around you.  When you go to buy a product or service do you factor in price?  Do you look for a cheaper option?  Do you use coupons or discount codes?  Maybe you don't, but I bet 90% of people do.

[KD5NRH]

Same DoT regs that govern how many hours truckers can drive in a day/week.  You know to keep 80,000 lbs trucks from being driven by hopped up, amphetamine filled, sleep deprived maniacs.

Yeah, because those work so well.

They went to the max offer (IIRC 400% of ticket price or in this case $800)

$800 voucher.  Worth very little to plenty of people.  I fly commercial when it can't wait for a drive and I can't find a GA pilot wanting some flight hours at my expense.  Funerals, other people's weddings and similar events don't wait.  That means getting there RFN is the only concern, and a voucher for something I do maybe once every 3-4 years, likely non-transferable and expiring before I will need it is literally not worth the paper it's printed on to me.

Not to mention that Doc *expletive deleted*bag was screwing with the 40-50 people on the plane he was on.  His antics caused a delay that may have costed those 40-50 people on his plane to miss connections.

Oh sure, it's like those self righteous bastards that fire guns in residential areas just because they have a burglar.

IT WAS NOT OVERBOOKED

Yes, it was, as long as it was on their options list as a crew taxi.  That's like saying if I have a tanker truck and fill the fuel tanks with product to get a little extra space, I wasn't over capacity and it's nobody's fault that I had to dump a few hundred gallons of product to get the fuel range needed.

Yeah, and United's stock is pretty much recovered.  Down no more than usual fluctuations in that stock.

How's their market share?  A lot of people saw the chance to grab cheap stock, and that got the price back up for the moment, but if even half the people saying they're going to Southwest from now on are telling the truth, United is going to be losing even more market share, and the stock will drop again as the investors see the long term effects of driving away a large number of customers.

[Ben]

Just saw the news conference with the guy's attorney. It appears they are only suing United. Interesting, since the entire physical portion of the incident was between him and government employees.

[makattak]

Just saw the news conference with the guy's attorney. It appears they are only suing United. Interesting, since the entire physical portion of the incident was between him and government employees.

I've read that if United didn't have the right to kick him off the plane (which appears to be in dispute), then their request that the police intervene was illegitimate, meaning they are also at fault for the police response.

Of course, I'm not sure why he's not also suing everyone else he can, but that MAY be why.

[Hawkmoon]

Look at the world around you.  When you go to buy a product or service do you factor in price?  Do you look for a cheaper option?  Do you use coupons or discount codes?  Maybe you don't, but I bet 90% of people do.

Of course I factor in price. But for a difference of $5 or $10 I'll always pick a better airline over a cheaper airline. My late wife was from Chile. Basically, the two airlines we could choose from were LAN Chile (now LATAM) and American. We flew American once -- and said "Never again." After that flight from hell, price didn't matter -- EVERYTHING about LAN Chile was better, so we never considered American again. And if the entire industry boosted prices by $5 per coach seat, so they could give us back enough legroom for a normal male to actually sit straight in the seat, and make flying just a little bit less of a torture than what they've created over the past few years, people would never notice. What we notice is that a few years ago we could check two bags for free, now it's only one -- and they want a LOT of money for the second. (Some airlines charge for even the first checked bag these days -- and then they wonder why people have more carry-on bags than can possibly fit in the overheads.)

In many cases, price isn't the deciding factor. Maybe only one airline flies the route. Or maybe only one airline has a flight that fits the schedule the passenger needs to follow. At that point, price isn't even a secondary factor -- it doesn't enter into the equation at all.

I live on the east coast. After the miserable experience I had flying to Las Vegas for the SHOT Show in January, I doubt I'll ever fly anywhere in the continental U.S. again. I'd rather rent an economy car and blow three days driving -- it would only be a day longer than the flight eventually took me, it'll be far more comfortable, and it'll be cheaper. Back in the 1960s and 1970s I loved flying. Now I hate it. Flying is to be avoided at all costs -- and the airlines have mostly done it to themselves. (With a bit of help from the TSA, of course.)

[Hawkmoon]

Heard last night, may have already been brought up, but everyone on that flight was reimbursed for the price of their ticket.

That's nice, but how is that going to induce future flyers to choose United over an airline that doesn't "re-accommodate" passengers on a gurney?

[Hawkmoon]

I've read that if United didn't have the right to kick him off the plane (which appears to be in dispute), then their request that the police intervene was illegitimate, meaning they are also at fault for the police response.

Of course, I'm not sure why he's not also suing everyone else he can, but that MAY be why.

The passenger had a contract with United Airlines, not with the Chicago Airport Police. My guess is that, since they cops (or security personnel -- whatever their status is at ORD) were essentially enforcing a United Airlines policy at United's request, they were acting as agents of United Airlines rather than enforcing an Illinois or federal law.

[MechAg94]

I thought this one was really funny, but I am not quite sure why.

[MechAg94]

I heard he isn't Chinese, but why interrupt a good joke with facts.

[MikeB]

United may have complied with the law and they may have complied with their policies. That appears to be debatable; but let's assume its true. The Doctor is probably a Jackass; and seems to have some questionable history. Doesn't really matter. This was still wrong. Just because the law allows something or company policies state something especially in fine print doesn't make an action morally correct.

They would have to offer me a lot more than 400 or 800 in vouchers I would likely never use to get me out of my seat. I had at one point about 250,000 miles on American when I was traveling back and forth to India and never used those miles. It would likely also be a major hassle for me to have travel extended 24 hours like that. I have a small farm; Chickens, Ducks, occasionally pigs, etc. never mind the cats and dogs. It can be a major hassle just to get someone to feed and water for me when I have to travel for work. Trying to get someone to cover another day or even two may not be possible. And make no mistake he may not have gotten out the next day either. I did this deal once when I was younger; they said next flight in two hours I could get on. Next thing I knew I was staying in the airport overnight as they actually could t find a flight that wasn't full to get me on as I was considered standby for all of them. Not worth it; and I never even did use that voucher.

[bedlamite]

Next thing I knew I was staying in the airport overnight as they actually could t find a flight that wasn't full to get me on as I was considered standby for all of them. Not worth it; and I never even did use that voucher.

My aunt worked for Delta years ago, she always said standby means you stand by and watch your flight take off without you.

[RevDisk]

Perhaps some passengers care more about the price than anything, but I doubt it. People are already upset about shrinking seats, shrinking seat pitch, additional charges for carry-on items and checked bags, deteriorating (or disappearing) food, and the general hassle of flying. I seriously doubt if anyone would care at all if ticket prices were $5 or $10 higher across the board if the airline industry would reverse the current trend toward making coach class into a flying cattle car.

Do the federal regulations "cap" the compensation at $1,350, or is that simple the maximum they are required to pay? Would the federal government actually sanction an airline for offering $1,500 or $2,000 to induce volunteers for bumping?

The regs are the minimum for involuntary overbookings. The airlines would not be sanctioned. But few if any airlines would ever go above the regulated minimum for involuntary bumps.

There is no min or max for volunteers taking a bump. Hence why most of the time they'll push vouchers on you.

[MikeB]

My aunt worked for Delta years ago, she always said standby means you stand by and watch your flight take off without you.

I've heard that before. That flight voucher I never used ended up costing me watching two flights I think leave and a night sleeping on the floor at Stapleton then finally getting out sometime the next day. Also the person picking me up had to wait hours before I could tell them I wasn't getting out and then take a day off work to come get me the next day. Before the days of everyone having cell phones so difficulties communicating too. They needed to up the bidding and it needed to be cash on the spot and if the law doesn't allow that it needs to change. There shouldn't be any limit in the law to what they have to pay, just what it takes until someone on that plane says yep that is worth it to me.

[wmenorr67]

The Kentucky doctor who was dragged off a United Airlines flight on Sunday received a significant concussion and broken nose, and also lost two front teeth, his lawyer revealed Thursday.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/04/13/united-doctor-suffered-concussion-while-being-dragged-from-flight-lawyer-says.html

Damn, dudes don't even take ass beatings like this in Fight Club.

[Hawkmoon]

Judge Napolitano has now weighed in.

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/5397409460001/?#sp=show-clips

He seems to be responding to a press conference by the doctor's attorney, which I haven't seen. Apparently the doctor suffered injuries far beyond just a split lip.

So much for "Fly the friendly skies."

Also Judge Jeanine (fast forward to about 2:45):

http://video.foxnews.com/v/5395410894001/?intcmp=obnetwork#sp=show-clips

[Ben]

How's their market share?  A lot of people saw the chance to grab cheap stock, and that got the price back up for the moment, but if even half the people saying they're going to Southwest from now on are telling the truth, United is going to be losing even more market share, and the stock will drop again as the investors see the long term effects of driving away a large number of customers.

I think their market share will do fine. The media and everyone and their brother are making a circus of this right now. In the end, United is a large carrier. There are plenty of airports in the country where you're pretty much flying United (or American or Delta) to certain destinations or nothing. Unless they lose hubs, they're likely not losing business when everyone forgets this ever happened in a month or so when some bakery doesn't bake a cake again.

[Scout26]

Yeah,

How's their market share?  A lot of people saw the chance to grab cheap stock, and that got the price back up for the moment, but if even half the people saying they're going to Southwest from now on are telling the truth, United is going to be losing even more market share, and the stock will drop again as the investors see the long term effects of driving away a large number of customers.

Southworst is notorious for overbooking.  Hence, my free $800 for my bump to Charleston flight.

Again, it's not overbooked.  Full, yes.  Having to reposition a crew is usually fairly last minute, like day of.  Read the fine print.