Become a deadbeat, because solidarity and social justice

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/non-corinthian-students-say-theyre-willing-to-put-financial-future-at-risk-to-show-solidarity-2015-06-05

We've discussed the story about students whiny little brats from Corinthian College who want the government to magic away their student loan debt.  Because why should they be held responsible for their own bad decisions, amirite?

Now there are 1,000+ additional students lazy deadbeats, who have absolutely nothing to do with Corinthian College, who are all promising not to repay their own student loans as a show of solidarity with the Corinthian deadbeats.  They basically just want to skip out on their own loan payments, but they're trying to sell it as a high moral stand for social justice.  And people are taking them seriously, treating them as if they're doing a good deed.

It's more of Rooster's Orwellian social justice doublethink.  War is peace.  Man is woman.  Delinquency is virtue.

[Boomhauer]

The push among the 'tards is for student loan debt forgiveness. *expletive deleted*ing morons.

[Perd Hapley]

Most of my debt is in non-educational loans. Can I have that forgiven, too, or is it just student loans that should be free?

So confused.

I will, of course, await a panel of subject matter experts to supply me with an opinion on this.

[brimic]

Most of my debt is in non-educational loans. Can I have that forgiven, too, or is it just student loans that should be free?

So confused.

I will, of course, await a panel of subject matter experts to supply me with an opinion on this.

Well, your loans are probably collateralized which means the banks are going to collect on you one way or another.
Too bad the SJWs couldn't be sterilized and lobotomized as collection on their loans.

[vaskidmark]

I would be happy to forgive their student loans.

Do it along the lines of the old National Defense Student Loan program - year for year forgiveness if you got the loans for education in specified fields and then worked in those fields.  Or 33% forgiveness if you worked in certain specified public service (not necessarily public sector) jobs like building houses on reservations or being a career test dummy for specified medical issues.

I'd open it up to low-level no-tech public infrastructure jobs. like tearing down blighted housing, painting schools, litter patrols.  Maybe 10% for each full work year (2000 hours completed within 52 consecutive weeks).

The beauty of this plan, besides getting them out from under those oppressive loans at oppressive rates that they voluntarily contracted for, is that it gives them work experience they can use when eventually applying for a "real" job.  ("Yes, sir!  I know how to show up for work on time, and how to follow instructions, and how to get along with other people without being a [expletive deleted]bird that gums up the ability to meet the objectives.)

Long live the 99%!  Because they will need to live a long time to pay off those debts.

stay safe.

[KD5NRH]

Do it along the lines of the old National Defense Student Loan program - year for year forgiveness if you got the loans for education in specified fields and then worked in those fields.

Where do I sign up?  Year for year would be a better deal than I can afford to do out of my take home pay after taxes and child support.

[MillCreek]

Skid, I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[tokugawa]

I would be happy to forgive their student loans.

Do it along the lines of the old National Defense Student Loan program - year for year forgiveness if you got the loans for education in specified fields and then worked in those fields.  Or 33% forgiveness if you worked in certain specified public service (not necessarily public sector) jobs like building houses on reservations or being a career test dummy for specified medical issues.

I'd open it up to low-level no-tech public infrastructure jobs. like tearing down blighted housing, painting schools, litter patrols.  Maybe 10% for each full work year (2000 hours completed within 52 consecutive weeks).

The beauty of this plan, besides getting them out from under those oppressive loans at oppressive rates that they voluntarily contracted for, is that it gives them work experience they can use when eventually applying for a "real" job.  ("Yes, sir!  I know how to show up for work on time, and how to follow instructions, and how to get along with other people without being a [expletive deleted]bird that gums up the ability to meet the objectives.)

Long live the 99%!  Because they will need to live a long time to pay off those debts.

stay safe.

 IMO, this is what they will do- but we will get a surprise on what those jobs are gonna be- imagine a whole host of poorly educated, indebted and beholden kids ready to do anything the gov asks. I guarantee you, those jobs won't be anything like the things you think need to be done.

[vaskidmark]

Where do I sign up?  Year for year would be a better deal than I can afford to do out of my take home pay after taxes and child support.

You have Fauxahontas' phone number, don't you?  Just remember to keep saying "progressive".

stay safe.

[Scout26]

That's a better deal then my ROTC scholarship.  I had to do two years for each year they paid for....

[RevDisk]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/why-i-defaulted-on-my-student-loans.html?_r=2

Older person recommending the old "max out the credit cards and then bankruptcy/default" direction. Yeah, sounds like a good plan. Instead of say, going to a more affordable school and getting a useful degree.

[MillCreek]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/why-i-defaulted-on-my-student-loans.html?_r=2

Older person recommending the old "max out the credit cards and then bankruptcy/default" direction. Yeah, sounds like a good plan. Instead of say, going to a more affordable school and getting a useful degree.

^^^I would point out that Corporate America makes the same sort of business decision every day, in terms of loan defaults or bankruptcy filing. 

[KD5NRH]

Older person recommending the old "max out the credit cards and then bankruptcy/default" direction. Yeah, sounds like a good plan. Instead of say, going to a more affordable school and getting a useful degree.

Lots of four year colleges would take a huge hit if lenders were allowed to say sensible things like "There's a community college a half mile away that offers everything you need for your first two years of that degree plan at a third of the price.  We'll loan you enough to go to the CC and review your grades each year to see if we're willing to loan enough to finish up at the four year."

Frankly, I'm pretty sure freshman and sophomore enrollment at the local four-year would be cut by about 80% and the community college would have to expand accordingly.  I could see a whole new college education model arising from something like that, where it would become standard for every four-or-more year degree plan to spend the first two years in something like a community college, then move on to a school that can focus more effectively on the specialized higher level courses.  (The higher level school would also benefit from having most of the hard-partying potential dropouts eliminated before they get there.)

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

^^^I would point out that Corporate America makes the same sort of business decision every day, in terms of loan defaults or bankruptcy filing. 

No they don't.  Not without consequences.

Back when I was involved in the family business back home, people would say that sort of thing all the time.  "But businesses renege on their loans all the time and it never hurts them."  It isn't true.  They don't default nearly as often as some imagine, and it is NEVER without consequences to their future business dealings.  It usually costs them more in the long run.  Business works on reputation, a bad actor becomes known, word gets around.  And it always costs more in the long run.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

To expand on this idea further, that it should be OK to skip out on your student loans, I think I would be a lot more understanding if there was better transparency, better reporting requirements.  

Maybe we should make a student loan defaulter explain to prospective employers why he didn't honor one of the first big business deals he ever made.  

Maybe we should keep student loan defaults in credit histories for life.  It doesn't need to affect your credit rating forever, maybe just have a line item that makes it visible, makes it known.

If you think it's fair and decent to cheat the guy who bought you your education, then fine, do it.  But do it openly and be prepared to justify your actions afterward.  If you're willing to do that then maybe it's a reasonable thing to do after all.

These clowns aren't willing to own up to their actions.  They're trying to hide fromtheir actions.  You can see it in the gyrations they go through trying to rewrite their story.  "I wasn't breaking my word, I was taking a stand for justice!"  Horse *expletive deleted*it.  

[MillCreek]

No they don't.  Not without consequences.

Back when I was involved in the family business back home, people would say that sort of thing all the time.  "But businesses renege on their loans all the time and it never hurts them."  It isn't true.  They don't default nearly as often as some imagine, and it is NEVER without consequences to their future business dealings.  It usually costs them more in the long run.  Business works on reputation, a bad actor becomes known, word gets around.  And it always costs more in the long run.

This really applies primarily to small business.  Recent years have shown us that when you are 'too big to fail' and/or get bailouts from the taxpayers, the moral hazard you describe does not come into play very much.

[vaskidmark]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/why-i-defaulted-on-my-student-loans.html?_r=2

Older person recommending the old "max out the credit cards and then bankruptcy/default" direction. Yeah, sounds like a good plan. Instead of say, going to a more affordable school and getting a useful degree.

Perfect solution - except that in bankruptcy student loans are not cancelled/forgiven/whatever the term is.

Bringing back debtor's prison is another way we could get these deadbeats a low-paying job so they could pay off their obligation.  Some jurisdictions already put folks who cannot make child support or court costs & fines on the County Farm.

stay safe.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

This really applies primarily to small business.  Recent years have shown us that when you are 'too big to fail' and/or get bailouts from the taxpayers, the moral hazard you describe does not come into play very much.

I don't know about all corporate sectors, but I know about a few.  It certainly applies to engineering.  Pull something stupid, rig a design, falsify data, whatever, nobody will hire you again.  If you're especially egregious and you have a PE stamp they can throw you in jail.

It applies to Wall Street.  Major multimillion dollar bonds trades are done on a phone call or a hand shake.  Equities go back and forth over computer networks with nothing more binding than that, too.

I know bond a trader who thought he could get away with breaking his word.  Minor trade, maybe a hundred thousand or something, he wouldn't honor it, didn't want to eat the loss.  He lost his job, then his house, then his wife and kids.  His company lost some big time customers worth far more than that one stupid deal.  And everyone heard about it.  I'm not even in the bond business and I heard about it.

You don't get away with this stuff in the real world.  Not for long.  People who are good a their business know who they can do business with.  It applies at all levels, from top to bottom.

Maybe the medical world is different.  I dunno.  Scary thought, if it is.

[roo_ster]

HTG:

One bond trader is easily identifiable, too small, not rich enough, and has vulnerable interpersonal relations.

Many companies/corporations do not have those weaknesses,  have advantages like political pull, and those looting them and/or their subsidiaries manage to come off just fine.

Not sure how old you are, but I recall the corporate raider LBOs / junk bond kings back in the 1980s.  To see the sort of morality of these folk, watch the Wolf of Wall Street, where white-shoe super-WASP firms are taken over by entryists and a whole new moral code is regnant.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

I don't know about all corporate sectors, but I know about a few.  It certainly applies to engineering.  Pull something stupid, rig a design, falsify data, whatever, nobody will hire you again.  If you're especially egregious and you have a PE stamp they can throw you in jail.

It applies to Wall Street.  Major multimillion dollar bonds trades are done on a phone call or a hand shake.  Equities go back and forth over computer networks with nothing more binding than that, too.

I know bond a trader who thought he could get away with breaking his word.  Minor trade, maybe a hundred thousand or something, he wouldn't honor it, didn't want to eat the loss.  He lost his job, then his house, then his wife and kids.  His company lost some big time customers worth far more than that one stupid deal.  And everyone heard about it.  I'm not even in the bond business and I heard about it.

You don't get away with this stuff in the real world.  Not for long.  People who are good a their business know who they can do business with.  It applies at all levels, from top to bottom.

Maybe the medical world is different.  I dunno.  Scary thought, if it is.

Medical world is different. My bros shrink helped his ex wife kill herself. Admitted it and got some basically administrative punishment and probation. He was able to go to california and practice immediately.
I got no problem with that or him but from a legal standpoint i was surprised



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[De Selby]

I don't know about all corporate sectors, but I know about a few.  It certainly applies to engineering.  Pull something stupid, rig a design, falsify data, whatever, nobody will hire you again.  If you're especially egregious and you have a PE stamp they can throw you in jail.

It applies to Wall Street.  Major multimillion dollar bonds trades are done on a phone call or a hand shake.  Equities go back and forth over computer networks with nothing more binding than that, too.

I know bond a trader who thought he could get away with breaking his word.  Minor trade, maybe a hundred thousand or something, he wouldn't honor it, didn't want to eat the loss.  He lost his job, then his house, then his wife and kids.  His company lost some big time customers worth far more than that one stupid deal.  And everyone heard about it.  I'm not even in the bond business and I heard about it.

You don't get away with this stuff in the real world.  Not for long.  People who are good a their business know who they can do business with.  It applies at all levels, from top to bottom.

Maybe the medical world is different.  I dunno.  Scary thought, if it is.

You'd think all the law firms would be out of business by now, given the high standards of honesty and old timey handshake deals described in this post.

Breach of contract (including loan contracts) happens all the time for business reasons.  It's just that it only becomes a moral issue when consumers do it. 

If only the banks took such a moral approach to managing consumer accounts!

[RoadKingLarry]

Lots of four year colleges would take a huge hit if lenders were allowed to say sensible things like "There's a community college a half mile away that offers everything you need for your first two years of that degree plan at a third of the price.  We'll loan you enough to go to the CC and review your grades each year to see if we're willing to loan enough to finish up at the four year."

Frankly, I'm pretty sure freshman and sophomore enrollment at the local four-year would be cut by about 80% and the community college would have to expand accordingly.  I could see a whole new college education model arising from something like that, where it would become standard for every four-or-more year degree plan to spend the first two years in something like a community college, then move on to a school that can focus more effectively on the specialized higher level courses.  (The higher level school would also benefit from having most of the hard-partying potential dropouts eliminated before they get there.)

I agree in principle and whole heartedly support the concept. Problem my daughter ran into was that even among state colleges not all her credits would transfer. State College A required "basket weaving 101" but they wouldn't accept "basket weaving 101" credit from State college B.
College quite being about education a long time ago. They are now little more than money mills and/or life support systems for sports teams.

[roo_ster]

I agree in principle and whole heartedly support the concept. Problem my daughter ran into was that even among state colleges not all her credits would transfer. State College A required "basket weaving 101" but they wouldn't accept "basket weaving 101" credit from State college B.
College quite being about education a long time ago. They are now little more than money mills and/or life support systems for sports teams.

This is one thing Texas does well:
http://www.tccns.org/

Most community colleges' and state schools' credits transfer easily.  Heck, even lots of private schools are part of Texas Common Course Numbering System

You'd think all the law firms would be out of business by now, given the high standards of honesty and old timey handshake deals described in this post.

Breach of contract (including loan contracts) happens all the time for business reasons.  It's just that it only becomes a moral issue when consumers do it. 

If only the banks took such a moral approach to managing consumer accounts!

Got to agree with DS on this one. 

What we have here is an insular group with a morality that is inclusive of only their own kind and exclusive of those outside their bounds.  The prevailing morality is, "Whatever is good for me/mine" and has zero regard for those outside the group.  This insular group also uses the moral code of those outside the group against them, a moral code that is more objective, action-oriented, and which has little regard for group membership.

Such college courses as "business" ethics and "legal" ethics are less concerned with right/wrong than with what can one get away with without risking jail time in the conduct of business and lawyering.

[MillCreek]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/06/09/government--erase-student-debt--corinthian-students/28729969/

From the article:

can also request an immediate discharge, because the government's findings which showed Heald was misleading students about their chances of getting jobs, was enough proof to entitle those students to forgiveness of their loans.

If this is the basis for school loan forgiveness, then a whole lot of law schools are shaking in the boots this morning.  What with the misleading statistics on finding a legal job after graduation.

[RevDisk]

Perfect solution - except that in bankruptcy student loans are not cancelled/forgiven/whatever the term is.

Bringing back debtor's prison is another way we could get these deadbeats a low-paying job so they could pay off their obligation.  Some jurisdictions already put folks who cannot make child support or court costs & fines on the County Farm.

We have a thoroughly corrupt legal system already, and where it's not corrupt, it's pay to play. We already DO have already debtor's prisons for poor people. If you're fined by a judge and you don't or can't pay, you go to jail. Mandatory prison work pays between $0.23-$1.15 (inside UNICOR), non-UNICOR varies but can be as low as $0.12.

Working at $0.12, you will never realistically pay any debt. If one worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, you'd make $3,679.20. While theoretically unnecessary, some percentage of that would realistically be needed to buy basic supplies (toothpaste, socks, whatever) from the commissary which has significantly inflated prices.

Chris could tell you in much more detail than I, but we already have a legal system is overwhelmingly pay-to-play. Let's give an example.

Two girls are basically found guilty of whatever. Same crime at the same time. Vandalism or destruction of property. First time offenders, no serious background. Just dumb kid stuff. 

One girl comes from an alright family, not rich but solid middle class. Parents pay for an alright lawyer. Not cheap, but not hideously expensive.  Family isn't hugely important or anything, but belongs to a decent sized church, knows plenty of neighbors, etc. Not someone the prosecutor is actively afraid of, but could be a decent number of lost votes. Lawyer asks judge to agree to repayment for damages, therapy at the family's expense, community service. Think a judge is going to turn that deal down? Nope. Family drops $10k ish and the girl has to do hundred hours of community service, which guaranteed isn't breaking rocks.

Other girl has a single mother with a not great but not terrible, doesn't have great credit and gets a juvvie public defender. Doesn't have the cash for expensive therapy, and the government program is insanely overbooked.

Your solution is, what..? Throw the kid in debtor prison? The mother? Suppose the kid or mother is an absolute master craftsman and makes the absolutely top and unrealistic prison wages of a buck an hour. If the damage was a grand and court fees were $4000 (not unrealistic), that's two and a half years in prison. At a more realistic $0.30 wage, you're talking 16,666 hours of labor or 8 years in debtor prison. Possibly a lot more, because prisons now charge fees for plenty of things.

If you think any part of the above is not standard procedure now, please let me know and I'd be happy to go into more detail.

You'd think all the law firms would be out of business by now, given the high standards of honesty and old timey handshake deals described in this post.

Breach of contract (including loan contracts) happens all the time for business reasons.  It's just that it only becomes a moral issue when consumers do it. 

If only the banks took such a moral approach to managing consumer accounts!

Banks give millions to the politicians to get elected, help draft the laws, then put their people into the regulatory slots. So, yeah. It's just a moral issue when folks who can't buy the government break the law or contracts.

List of some of the Sachs folks in the current administration.
http://www.nachumlist.com/goldmansachsobama.htm