Author Topic: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist  (Read 7477 times)

roo_ster

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2012, 09:46:07 AM »
The scientific community has done a poor job of policing its ranks and reeling in those who use their theory to incite panic through hyperbole.

Climate scientists have become the useful idiots of the collectivists.

The warmers policed their ranks, alright.  But, the did so with the intention of excluding any analysis or data contrary to their own notions.  Their own emails damn them.

So again, most scientists in this field believe that the world is warming, and that this warming is caused by CO2 emissions mainly from humans. 

But that position is a conspiracy.  It's just that the academy is so well policed it controls all of its members to the tune of a 90 plus percentage rate.

The field is supported almost solely by gov't grants and is populated with leftists.  They already have their answers, they just need to find supporting data.

Would that folks who are so skeptical of claims by private companies be as skeptical of the warmers and their enablers.

And the academy is policed rather ruthlessly.  Any dissent is attacked and the dissenter vilified.  Just ask Bjørn Lomborg, who went of the reservation a smidge and is now no longer welcome in the warmer clique.

Yeah, except that it doesn't explain why no one busts the conspiracy once in, by publishing papers that dispute it and prove how much junk the science is that's behind it.  That could be done in scientific journals, and done in a way that isn't possible in "feminist studies" journals.  

Have you been in a cave?  Many have been published.  Many of the Climategate I & II emails were explicit and damning.  You just have been filtering out contrary data and analysis.



Take it from someone who uses and develops stochastic, event-driven simulations describing physics phenomena for a living: their models and methodology are indubitably, self-admittedly crap.  Their data has now been impeached and they can not defend it.  They have no pot to piss in, save the ears of gullible warmers who take their priestly uttering on faith.
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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De Selby

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2012, 10:03:45 AM »
See, "climategate" I think was a good example:  no one in the scientific community seems to think it changed anything, the emails themselves that I read and read about seemed innocuous, but there're people who are absolutely certain it was part of a conspiracy.  Apparently the various university investigations into the emails that concluded nothing was wrong, and that they didn't show falsification of any data or positions, were just proof of the extent of the conspiracy?

That's one of the oldest tricks in conspiracy theories - expand the conspiracy so that everyone who could debunk it is part of it.

If you can spot the holes in their science with your background, I see no reason why you couldn't publish a refutation that demonstrably embarrasses all of the climate scientists publishing this stuff now.  Unless you think the journals are in on it too, and that no scientists anywhere are willing to examine your conclusions honestly and support them.

Like I said, seems more than a little improbable.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2012, 10:19:10 AM »
no one in the scientific community seems to think it changed anything,

well you are not factually challenged  just disingenuous.

many in the scientific community already knew it was manure and chuckled at how the suckers intellectual poseurs bought it.  like dad said about the scientists who signed up to back the manure.  thats ones a gerontologist.  that ones a butterfly specialist. what a load.  and ironically dad and his colleagues worked on and developed the "models" the scam artists and their willing marks get wood over
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Ron

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2012, 11:22:08 AM »
At least some scientists aren't convinced we are at the edge of the AGW Apocalypse.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2012/05/31/sorry-global-warming-alarmists-the-earth-is-cooling/
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

HankB

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2012, 02:17:00 PM »
. . .
Anybody watch the movie The 300 about the Persian invasion of Sparta? You know the narrow pass that was defended by the 300 Spartan warriors? I have friends in Greece and in a recent discussion this somehow became a topic. They told me that if you visit that site today, you can't possibly understand what the battle was all about, because at the time the sea came right to the cliffs and the beach was only a narrow strip, exposed at low tide. Today, the beach is several kilometers wide and if the Persians were invading today they wouldn't even consider going through the pass -- they'd simply drive right by on the beach.

So much for rising seas.
Some photos can be found here:  http://www.battle-of-thermopylae.eu/main_battlefield.html?PHPSESSID=c80fde8262ec39d61546ee71a03d48b6
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roo_ster

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2012, 07:08:28 PM »
See, "climategate" I think was a good example:  no one in the scientific community seems to think it changed anything, the emails themselves that I read and read about seemed innocuous, but there're people who are absolutely certain it was part of a conspiracy.  Apparently the various university investigations into the emails that concluded nothing was wrong, and that they didn't show falsification of any data or positions, were just proof of the extent of the conspiracy?

That's one of the oldest tricks in conspiracy theories - expand the conspiracy so that everyone who could debunk it is part of it.

If you can spot the holes in their science with your background, I see no reason why you couldn't publish a refutation that demonstrably embarrasses all of the climate scientists publishing this stuff now.  Unless you think the journals are in on it too, and that no scientists anywhere are willing to examine your conclusions honestly and support them.

Like I said, seems more than a little improbable.

It doesn't require a conspiracy to understand the whitewashing done in response to Climategate I & II, just an understanding of human nature.  Both the AGW-boosting "scientists" and their administrative boosters are hogs at the public trough.  If AGW is shown to be bunk, the gravy train stops, people get fired and have to find useful employment.  I would expect such an investigation to produce the same results if you were to have fellow welfare-check receiving slugs "investigate" their neighboring dole-ists.

Also, there is one small problem with your "publish a refutation" deal: the AWG-boosting "scientists" are unwilling to release the entirety of the source code that they wrote while consuming taxpayer dollars.  This is in contrast to real, actual, science and modeling & simulation practice where code, methodology, and data are open to audit when claims are made.  Despite thei, some have produced well-documented refutations and criticisms that the AGW fraudsters can counter only with accusation & hand-waving.

My background in this area gave me some insight before the Climategate revelations, given the actions & attitudes of the AGW-fraudsters.  Refusing to allow one's code, data, and methodology to be examined are the actions of someone who knows their work is crap.  Then, one of the "deniers" FOIA-ed an executable (but not data or source code) and found that the input data was not all that important, given that randomly entered data produced the "hockey stick" chart so touted for years. 

Toss on top of that my other major was history, with a Dark-Middle Age focus.  I have read some of the primary sources from WAY back, some with anonymous authors, some with cool names like "Notker the Stammerer."  When the AGW fraudsters began going all 1984 with regard to history and wiping out commonly known and undisputed temperature changes like the Medieval Warming Period, was a sign their underlying data could not retrodict past climate changes.

Then, the Climategate email and source code snippets came out.  The emails were damning enough, but the source code & in-line comments were the stuff that really blow a hole below the waterline on the AGW-fraudster ship.  There were plenty of places where the code writer/maintainer wrote comments to the effect of, "I have no idea what os going on here.  Dr. Mann says the original data is lost.  So, I'll just plug the results in from YearX to YearZ."

I had one of those "will you get out of my brain" moments reading one of esr's post a few years back.  An excerpt:
Error cascade: a definition and examples

...
I use the term “error cascade” in a meaning halfway between the restricted sense of the medical literature and “information cascade”, and I apply it specifically to a kind of bad science, especially bad science recruited in public-policy debates. A scientific error cascade happens when researchers substitute the reports or judgment of more senior and famous researchers for their own, and incorrectly conclude that their own work is erroneous or must be trimmed to fit a “consensus” view.

But it doesn’t stop there. What makes the term “cascade” appropriate is that those errors spawn other errors in the research they affect, which in turn spawn further errors. It’s exactly like a cascade from an incorrect medical diagnosis. The whole field surrounding the original error can become clogged with theory that has accreted around the error and is poorly predictive or over-complexified in order to cope with it.
...
In extreme cases, entire fields of inquiry can go down a rathole for years because almost everyone has preference-falsified almost everyone else into submission to a “scientific consensus” theory that is (a) widely but privately disbelieved, and (b) doesn’t predict or retrodict observed facts at all well. In the worst case, the field will become pathologized — scientific fraud will spread like dry rot among workers overinvested in the “consensus” view and scrambling to prop it up. Yes, anthropogenic global warming, I’m looking at you!
...
There an important difference between the AGW rathole and the others, though. Errors in the mass of the electron, or the human chromosome count, or structural analyses of obscure languages, don’t have political consequences (I chose Chomsky, who is definitely politically active, in part to sharpen this point). AGW theory most certainly does have political consequences; in fact, it becomes clearer by the day that the IPCC assessment reports were fraudulently designed to fit the desired political consequences rather than being based on anything so mundane and unhelpful as observed facts.

When a field of science is co-opted for political ends, the stakes for diverging from the “consensus” point of view become much higher. If politicians have staked their prestige and/or hopes for advancement on being the ones to fix a crisis, they don’t like to hear that “Oops! There is no crisis!” — and where that preference leads, grant money follows. When politics co-opts a field that is in the grip of an error cascade, the effect is to tighten that grip to the strangling point.

Consequently, scientific fields that have become entangled with public-policy debates are far more likely to pathologize — that is, to develop inner circles that collude in actual misconduct and suppression of refuting data rather than innocently perpetuating a mistake. The CRU “team” isn’t the only example of this....

So…how do you tell when a research field is in the grip of an error cascade? The most general indicator I know is consilience failures. Eventually, one of the factoids generated by an error cascade is going to collide with a well-established piece of evidence from another research field that is not subject to the same groupthink.
...
Consilience failures offer a way to spot an error cascade at a relatively early stage, well before the field around it becomes seriously pathologized. At later stages, the disconnect between the observed reality in front of researchers’ noses and the bogus theory may increase enough to cause problems within the field. At that point, the amount of peer pressure required to keep researchers from breaking out of the error cascade increases, and the operation of social control becomes more visible.

You are well into this late stage when anyone invokes “scientific consensus”. Science doesn’t work by consensus, it works by making and confirming predictions. Science is not democratic; there is only one vote, only Mother Nature gets to cast it, and the results are not subject to special pleading. When anyone attempts to end debate by insisting that a majority of scientists believe some specified position, this is the social mechanism of error cascades coming into the open and swinging a wrecking ball at actual scientific method right out where everyone can watch it happening. [Yes, that is you & your AGW buddies, DS---roo_ster]

Do read the whle thing.  Well worth your while.



Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

lee n. field

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2012, 07:32:43 PM »
Quote from: roo_ster
Do read the whle thing.  Well worth your while.
Bookmarked.  I will read the whole thing, RSN.

Quote
When anyone attempts to end debate by insisting that a majority of scientists believe some specified position, this is the social mechanism of error cascades coming into the open and swinging a wrecking ball at actual scientific method right out where everyone can watch it happening

At the risk of thread veer, willing to apply that to, say, ID or Darwinism?
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De Selby

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2012, 07:57:43 PM »
In other words, you offer what you think is evidence of the conspiracy - this stuff doesn't explain how scientists fail to notice all this evidence that the Heartland foundation and whoever wrote that post think is so obvious. 

Essentially, they all have to be in on the politics that shape the IPCC for it to make sense.  You'd think at least some would not care about politics, and also be capable of spotting the purported flaws.  Yet they don't.

How likely is that? 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2012, 09:06:23 PM »
In other words, you offer what you think is evidence of the conspiracy - this stuff doesn't explain how scientists fail to notice all this evidence that the Heartland foundation and whoever wrote that post think is so obvious. 

Essentially, they all have to be in on the politics that shape the IPCC for it to make sense.  You'd think at least some would not care about politics, and also be capable of spotting the purported flaws.  Yet they don't.

How likely is that? 

Nice way to misconstrue my post, deliberately or otherwise. 

I know a way for the AGW-boosters to clear the air: release all their source code, data, methodologies, and assumptions.  The taxpayers paid for them; we ought to see it all.

You keep waving "you think it is a conspiracy" around like some sort of argument-dispelling weapon.  It ain't as powerful as you think it it is, especially to those trained in the hard sciences and accountable to customers for data, methodology, and results.  Also, AGW fraudsterism requires no conspiracy. Error/information cascade, plus mere human nature explain it quite well enough.  This is not the first time such has occurred and it is not the only one occurring at the moment.
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2012, 09:30:34 PM »
Bookmarked.  I will read the whole thing, RSN.

At the risk of thread veer, willing to apply that to, say, ID or Darwinism?

Applying it to ID is a waste of time.  ID is not science, period.  Might as well force a beagle to take a calculus test.  ID has done good work impeaching Darwinism, though, showing where it has little/no explanatory power and the Darwinists resort to hand-waving.  In that sense, it is performing a function that science ought without being science itself.

Yes, Darwinism suffers from some of the ailments esr describes.  Not nearly as badly as AGW fraudsterism, though.  Darwinism, evolutionary biology, etc. could be vastly improved by a good scouring: keeping what is provable, being honest about what is conjecture & wishful thinking.  Maintaining Darwinism as a soup-to-nuts scientific edifice against the scary fundies has crippled investigation into the areas it is weakest.

I am open to epistemology that includes revelation(1).  Any subsequent claims to knowledge so revealed being "scientific," ought to be laughed out of the county.  This includes such masturbatory adolescent constructions as Marxism, Freudianism, and such. 






(1) FTR, I am a creationist.  I believe God created a complete, mature universe and a complete, mature Earth.  In six days.  A few thousand years ago, give or take.  Look to Adam for an example: Adam was a mature, grown man as created by God.
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

gunsmith

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2012, 11:46:43 PM »
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/06/02/1930s_greenland_glacier_retreat/

the glaciers were melting recently ... well geographically speaking .... [popcorn]

Scientist agree, AGW skeptics are smarter.
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HankB

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2012, 11:52:22 AM »
  . . . But what is anti-civilization is the idea that climate is changing AND it is due to human activity AND the only proper response is to cut emissions. transfer money from your pockets to those of Al Gore and others of his ilk.
FIFY. (Every "solution" to AGW I've seen involves wealth transfer - from me to someone else. I guess $$$ in my pockets cause AGW, but once they're in the hands of the proper people, they're good again.)
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HankB

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Re: AGW skeptics as smart or smarter as AGW alarmist
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2012, 12:21:55 PM »
I want to take the quiz but no link to it
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/05/28/global-warming-skeptics-know-more-about-science-new-study-claims/
http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/nclimate1547-s1.pdf

The quiz includes 14 questions on numeracy and 8 on scientific literacy. None are difficult, a few of the numeracy questions require a little thought, the scientific literacy questions are trivial.

I noted that the authors classify some people as "egalitarian communitarians" . . . I first looked up the word "communitarian" during the Clinton administration, thinking it was something a Clintonista made up; not so. My old Webster's New Word Dictionary defines a "communitarian" as "a member or advocate of a communistic community."   

Words mean things; I wonder if the authors of this study know what the word means.

(BTW, "individualists" scored slightly better than "communitarians" on both the numeracy and science portions of the quiz.)
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain