Author Topic: Question for electronics folks (Read 3967 times)

Monkeyleg · « **on:** May 07, 2013, 11:41:56 PM »

I"m trying to get my guitar and amp setup to sound more like Stevie Ray Vaughan and some of the 70's guitarists. I've been asking on guitar forums about gear, and the suggestion is almost always to get a tube amp from that era. I have a modern one, but it has clipping circuitry, which defeats the purpose of overdriving the tubes. Pushing the tubes to their limits is apparently what gives this classic "big" yet soft sound.

Anywho, I can get a 1960's or 1970's era Fender amp easily enough, but it would be waaaayyyy too loud to play in the house. Without the amp cranked to near full volume, though, it won't sound right.

I'm trying to think of something that could be in the speaker circuit that would drain off some of that power, while still having the tubes being driven. I've put large resistors in stereo circuits to provide impedance on empty channels, but never tried to drain off power into something that didn't make noise.

Any idea what could be substituted for a speaker, having the same impedance?

Jim147 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 07, 2013, 11:49:07 PM »

You just need to get one that goes to 11.

jim

RoadKingLarry · « **Reply #2 on:** May 08, 2013, 02:21:52 AM »

My electronics theory is a little rusty but you should be able to put a big honkin' resistor in the circuit "down stream" of the amps. But, think it would screw up your impedance matching.
I'm kind of thinking the sound you want is kind of a package deal with amp tubes near overdrive and the volume.

You'd think that someone could duplicate the tube amp sound with modern digital equipment. If you get the sample rate high enough most anyone that says they can tell a difference are lying or delusional.

230RN · « **Reply #3 on:** May 08, 2013, 03:47:11 AM »

Brad Johnson · « **Reply #4 on:** May 08, 2013, 10:00:06 AM »

Get a tube pre-amp and use the big amp as the final.

Or use the Fender as a pre-amp and play through something smaller.

Brad

Monkeyleg · « **Reply #5 on:** May 08, 2013, 12:32:19 PM »

The Fender Super Reverbs have a distinct sound, especially when the tubes are driven to the limit and start compressing the sound. Contemporary amps have circuitry that doesn't allow this. Anyway, that's what I've been told.

The resistor ("attenuator", as guitarists apparently call them) would work, but there's other ways I found to cut the volume on that amp without affecting the sound. You can remove certain tubes, or swap tubes, and reduce the volume while keeping the sound. Apparently you can also disconnect two of the four speakers without damaging the amp. I didn't think that was possible.

Anyway, I'm going to keep my eye out for one of these. They're nearly fifty years old, but still sell for anywhere from $1200 to over $2000. That's how much in demand they are. They probably sold for a couple hundred new.

Balog · « **Reply #6 on:** May 08, 2013, 12:39:38 PM »

I have an older US made Fender Pro Jr I'm not using Dick, I'd be happy to swap.

That said, the best solution is getting a low powered amp and then cranking it. Lot of good 5watt designs out there. I don't know how it is for guitar amps, but for bass amps anyway a tube amp is a tube amp is a tube amp, old or new. The soft clipping from driven tubes is an integral part of the appeal and is not designed out. You can get good tone from using a tube pre and driving it hard, into a SS power amp. And the modern digital emulators are pretty much indistinguishable from real toob amps in blind tests, althought the good ones aren't cheap.

geronimotwo · « **Reply #7 on:** May 08, 2013, 01:27:48 PM »

i used to lay the amp face down on the floor.

zahc · « **Reply #8 on:** May 08, 2013, 02:16:46 PM »

The circuit you are looking for is known as an "L-pad".

However, it's not just the tubes that give you the "overdriven sound"...some if it comes from thrashing mercilessly on that speaker by dumping the distorted waveform through it. YMMV.

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 08, 2013, 02:37:16 PM »

Tubes actually do contribute a lot to it, because their output is considerably different than transistors, especially when it comes to clipping.

There are also small tube guitar pre-amps, and tube overdrive pedals that are solid-state, yet emulate tube waveform without buying a big Marshall or Fender tube amp stack.

I'm a big fan of the GE 6550 Power Pentode in my own amps. SRV kinda sold me on that.

Monkeyleg · « **Reply #10 on:** May 08, 2013, 02:53:38 PM »

I have a couple of pedals--a TS9 TubeScreamer and a Boss BluesDriver. The TS9 is what SRV used, sometimes using two or three in series.

I have a tube amp right now, and I can't get that soft clipping sound. It's a Peavey Classic 30, and it's designed for distortion, so when it's pushed it starts to distort, then clips if pushed too far.

For those of you who have guitars and amps, listen carefully to the sound of SRV's guitar on "Pride and Joy", then try to duplicate it with your gear. I've tried on a few different amps, and haven't been able to. I have the guitar set up the same, the TS9 pedal, but the amps haven't had the same sound. I had someone on a guitar forum explain it to me very well. I don't know that another amp would come close to nailing it. I could be wrong, but not according to a couple of moderators on that forum.

Fender has a reissue of the 1965 Super Reverb that almost identical, but much lower in price than an original. I may take a look at that.

I don't know why I'm even considering this, as I can't play all that well yet. It just bugs me to play songs and not have them sound right, I guess.

Balog · « **Reply #11 on:** May 08, 2013, 02:57:02 PM »

A lot of tone is in the hands. You could go onstage at an SRV concert and use his rig and it'd still sound different cause you ain't SRV.

Does the Classic 30 have a Gain and a Master Volume? Cranking the gain and leaving the volume down can also get you where you need to be.

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 08, 2013, 03:48:32 PM »

It's infuriating, isn't it, ML?

I've been trying to reproduce the fat distortion of Jimmy Page on Zeppelin's In Through The Out Door.

He ain't talkin'.

Monkeyleg · « **Reply #13 on:** May 08, 2013, 05:41:36 PM »

Quote from: Balog on May 08, 2013, 02:57:02 PM

A lot of tone is in the hands. You could go onstage at an SRV concert and use his rig and it'd still sound different cause you ain't SRV.

Does the Classic 30 have a Gain and a Master Volume? Cranking the gain and leaving the volume down can also get you where you need to be.

The Classic 30 has a dirty channel with gain and a clean channel. The Ibanez TubeScreamer does a better job, though.

I'm not trying to copy SRV. Nobody can. I just would like to get that amp tone, not just for Pride and Joy, but for songs by other guitarists, too.

I don't know that it's infuriating, but it's educational. Every time I get involved in a new hobby, I dive in the deep end first. I learn a lot, but make a lot of mistakes, too.

Azrael256 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 08, 2013, 08:08:27 PM »

Wait... Aren't you single now? Why would that be too loud?

280plus · « **Reply #15 on:** May 08, 2013, 08:24:33 PM »

I'd be more inclined to just look for my own sound. Take a SRV or Led Zep tune and "make it your own". I rarely play electric so the whole electronics thing is somewhat beyond me.

Monkeyleg · « **Reply #16 on:** May 08, 2013, 10:21:57 PM »

Quote

Wait... Aren't you single now? Why would that be too loud?

My neighbors can hear me, even when they're inside their houses. I need to get the tubes driven, but need to keep the volume down.

280plus, I'm sure I'll find my own sound in time. Right now I'm just trying to figure out how to get a certain tone that my current amps can't produce.

280plus · « **Reply #17 on:** May 09, 2013, 07:13:44 AM »

Much as I hate to say it, there might be an "app" for that. Lots of apps out there designed to mimic old sounds. A lot of guys are just running their guitars through their "IPhone" or whatever small device like that they are using.

Monkeyleg · « **Reply #18 on:** May 09, 2013, 12:02:54 PM »

Quote from: 280plus on May 09, 2013, 07:13:44 AM

Much as I hate to say it, there might be an "app" for that. Lots of apps out there designed to mimic old sounds. A lot of guys are just running their guitars through their "IPhone" or whatever small device like that they are using.

280plus, when Stevie Ray Vaughan became popular, someone noteworthy made the comment that millions of guitarists were going to drive themselves insane trying to sound like him.

I've read hundreds of threads from forums discussing how to sound like SRV, and I'm sure there's thousands or even tens of thousands more threads. Anybody who could come up with a quick way to duplicate the sound would become wealthy very fast.

There's a zillion things he did: use really heavy strings, hit the strings very hard (his brother, Jimmy Vaughan, once said that SRV played like he was trying to escape from prison), played VERY loud, and even held his pick differently. He use the wide part of the pick to hit the strings, not the pointed end. I thought the person who told me that was pulling my leg until I tried it.

Scout26 · « **Reply #19 on:** May 09, 2013, 01:12:32 PM »

I thought SRV finger picked.

280plus · « **Reply #20 on:** May 09, 2013, 03:46:31 PM »

No, I meant the sound of any particular vintage type amp that you might be looking for. I listen to this CD of I think "the best of SRV" all the time. I don't know, I guess I never got into trying to sound exactly like someone else. I more like "borrow" a few of their moves and incorporate it into my own stuff. I'm thinking about putting some tracks of myself down wailing some BS on my '72 Ovation Tornado. If I do I'll figure out how to get it onto youtube

Monkeyleg · « **Reply #21 on:** May 09, 2013, 07:35:26 PM »

Scout26, he did finger pick on some songs, and mixed finger picking and picks on others. He probably played with all three corners of picks, used light picks, heavy picks, steel picks, whatever. He seemed to experiment a lot.

280Plus, I'm using Pride and Joy as an example, because I've been practicing the song for over a year (just like me to pick something that's way over my head to start with). I can get certain notes and chords to sound like the album (I like this one on vinyl rather than CD), but not the whole song. Chords and notes on the B and high E strings are too hot, even when the A or D strings are sounding warmer and softer. Adjust to get softer, warmer tones on the high strings and the A and D strings sound muted.

I've often thought that it should be possible to make an amp (or stereo or whatever) sound like one particular model by utilizing an app of some kind, but the tone and the character of the vintage stuff comes from analog equipment. It's like vinyl vs. CD's. I don't know that the 0's and 1's in the CD's can ever really capture what the vinyl does.

I just want to nail that tone. It would work nicely on a lot of different songs.

280plus · « **Reply #22 on:** May 09, 2013, 11:25:14 PM »

Yea, I was hoping one of the gurus would chime inand tell me why a digital app just aint the same. What did he play, a tele or a strat? I'm thinking try some different brands of strings. Or maybe mix them

Monkeyleg · « **Reply #23 on:** May 10, 2013, 02:43:56 AM »

Stevie Ray Vaughan played Stratocasters. He had one from about 1954 or so that was beat to hell, with no finish left above the pickguard, as he'd worn it away with his extremely aggressive style of hitting the strings. That one was named "#1", IIRC. His cleaner one was white, and he'd named it "Lenny" after his first wife. When they divorced, he changed the name to "Scotch". I don't know what he called it after he gave up drinking.

He used heavy strings--11 or 13, 15, 19, 28, 38, 58 instead of the usual 9 or 10, 13, 17, 26, 36, 46--which gives a richer, throatier sound. It also lessens string breakage, which helped with the bends he did so often.

He used a lot of different brands, but I see GHS Rockers mentioned a lot. They have a nice sound. I've tried quite a few different brands and gauges of strings. The standard size strings are a lot easier to play. By the time I finish a song with the 13 to 58 strings, both hands ache.

280plus · « **Reply #24 on:** May 10, 2013, 07:30:24 AM »

Yea, I like superslinkys myself. .009s. I like to bend the crap out of them and they never break. (So far). I did bust a brand new 3rd string (I'm not going to say "G" string.
Not on THIS board anyways!

) on a guy's guitar. I was sitting in for him and I think the adrenaline got the best of me. I was bending it up 2 stops. lol.

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Author Topic: Question for electronics folks (Read 3967 times)