So much for ...

[Hawkmoon]

... render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto the Lord that which is the Lord's.

I have always understood that to mean that we are supposed to follow secular law where it applies, and Biblical "law" where that applies.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/23/us/california-immigrant-safe-houses/

So what part of Biblical law tells us to intentionally violate federal law and hide illegal aliens from the ICE?

[RoadKingLarry]

There is a point where following bad law is ethically abhorrent and good people should disobey.

Currnet US Immigration law is not in that category.

[Hawkmoon]

Agree on both points.

[K Frame]

Uhm... you are your brother's keeper?

[makattak]

Uhm... you are your brother's keeper?

That's actually NOT a commandment (Obama's belief notwithstanding), but even if it were, being "my brother's keeper" does not translate into "aiding and abetting him in committing a crime."

[K Frame]

I never said it was a commandment.

I'll also point out that this isn't a commandment, either...

"render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto the Lord that which is the Lord's."


As for aiding and abetting, remember, not everyone has the same view of various infractions...

I'll give these people marks for exercising their consciences, even if I don't agree with those actions.

[charby]

I'll give these people marks for exercising their consciences, even if I don't agree with those actions.

I feel the same way. Kind of like the folks who hid the Jews from the Nazi's

[Hawkmoon]

I feel the same way. Kind of like the folks who hid the Jews from the Nazi's

Slightly different. Trump is only sending illegals back where they came from. The Nazis were exterminating people who were citizens.

[K Frame]

Slightly different. Trump is only sending illegals back where they came from. The Nazis were exterminating people who were citizens.

Conscience is conscience.

Remember these words?

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..."

And that little faldarah was primarily over taxes...

[Perd Hapley]

I'll also point out that this isn't a commandment, either...

"render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto the Lord that which is the Lord's."

Uh - do you mean not a commandment, as in not handed down from Sinai? Or do you mean not a commandment, as in Jesus was only spit-balling so don't take Him seriously on that one? 'Cause it does look like something He was telling us to do, and not just witty repartee. (Though it was that, too.)

[Ron]

Uhm... you are your brother's keeper?

Yep, and I want to keep the my brother safe by having strong borders and a people that respect the rule of law.

Economic migrants aren't refugees.

If you are a true refugee you don't break into the country illegally. You apply for asylum.

It's the American way for both previous immigrants who are now Americans and future American wannabees.

How many economic migrants are enough before the open borders folks say enough?

Probably just enough to ensure the permanent Democratic majority is let in and safely ensconced in the cocoon of the welfare state.

How about they practice their religion or compassion with somebody elses country?

How about having some compassion for the folks in the country right now, ya know, Americans.

[Ron]

... render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, render unto the Lord that which is the Lord's.

I have always understood that to mean that we are supposed to follow secular law where it applies, and Biblical "law" where that applies.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/23/us/california-immigrant-safe-houses/

So what part of Biblical law tells us to intentionally violate federal law and hide illegal aliens from the ICE?

Because confused people think that Joseph and Mary were refugees and that Jesus wants his commandments enforced by the government, unless it has anything to do with your genitals.

[Perd Hapley]

Because confused people think that Joseph and Mary were refugees and that Jesus wants his commandments enforced by the government, unless it has anything to do with your genitals.

In fairness, they could be compared to modern-day refugees when they fled Herod's realm for Egypt. Presumably, Pharaoh Trump wasn't talking about deporting them, or buidling a wall. I guess Israel was no longer on Egypt's Terror Watch List Axis of Divine-Wrath-on-the-Firstborn.

[charby]

Slightly different. Trump is only sending illegals back where they came from. The Nazis were exterminating people who were citizens.

Some of them are coming from areas where people there do want to kill them.

[Ron]

Some of them are coming from areas where people there do want to kill them.

How many oppressed/persecuted/threatened third worlders should we let in?

Until we reach 15% of our total population, 20%, 30%? Oh wait, we're practically at 30% already since 1965. We've already absorbed a record number of immigrants since 1965 without pause.

Where does it end?

Do you agree with Bill Kristol that the legacy white Americans need to be replaced by new Americans?  

Who does the USA exist for? US citizens? potential US citizens? The world? The governing class?

What do you call the demographic replacement of a population of a nations founding people? Why is that even a government policy?

Open borders for you, gated communities for the oligarchy.

[charby]

How many oppressed/persecuted/threatened third worlders should we let in?

Until we reach 15% of our total population, 20%, 30%? Oh wait, we're practically at 30% already since 1965. We've already absorbed a record number of immigrants since 1965 without pause.

Where does it end?

Do you agree with Bill Kristol that the legacy white Americans need to be replaced by new Americans?  

Who does the USA exist for? US citizens? potential US citizens? The world? The governing class?

What do you call the demographic replacement of a population of a nations founding people? Why is that even a government policy?

Open borders for you, gated communities for the oligarchy.

How about we punish the folks who employee undocumented worker in a way that is extremely painful. Raise the ceiling on dollar amounts for the H2B by job class. Also double or triple the quarters to be "vested" in social security/disability.

Go after the easy reasons why folks come her for economic gains, this would still allow for approved refugees and legal immigration.

Also I don't believe in keeping this white American legacy. We are all humans, not a mixed species.

If we left it just to the European dissent to keep our population growing, we would be looking like Japan right now.

[Ron]

How about we punish the folks who employee undocumented worker in a way that is extremely painful. Raise the ceiling on dollar amounts for the H2B by job class. Also double or triple the quarters to be "vested" in social security/disability.

Go after the easy reasons why folks come her for economic gains, this would still allow for approved refugees and legal immigration.

I agree with you

Also I don't believe in keeping this white American legacy. We are all humans, not a mixed species.

If we left it just to the European dissent to keep our population growing, we would be looking like Japan right now.

That is fine with me, it isn't realistic to try and get back to 95% white European descent.

But that still doesn't answer the question about who this countries government is supposed to be protecting. I don't conflate the economies numbers with the people.

The economy has done fine for some people but not for those in flyover (mostly white and legacy Americans), hence Trump.

[Perd Hapley]

Ron & charby, you're neither of you being very clear about what you mean with this "white legacy" stuff.

Found a source for Kristol's comments:
http://www.publiusforum.com/2017/02/12/replace-white-working-class-mexican-immigrants-says-weekly-standard-editor-bill-kristol/


I can see where Kristol is coming from, but he's nuts. I mean, sure, there are many good qualities among our immigrant friends, but come on.

[MechAg94]

Some of them are coming from areas where people there do want to kill them.

Right now, they are prioritizing ones who have committed crimes here.  Why should we care? 

One comment I heard a while back is:  Americans generally have a very liberal view toward immigrants because they don't border a country like India or Pakistan.  If we did, people would have a different view.

[MechAg94]

I would also add, when did the refugee system start?  Wasn't it mostly a Cold War thing to let in victims of Commie oppression?  At this point, I don't know why we let any in.  I would rather just give them guns and send them back where they came from. 

[Ron]

Ron & charby, you're neither of you being very clear about what you mean with this "white legacy" stuff.

Just a snarky way of referring to the founding fathers posterity. You know, the people the constitution and country was actually set up for and left to.

[Hawkmoon]

Some of them are coming from areas where people there do want to kill them.

Those can apply for asylum.

[Hawkmoon]

How about we punish the folks who employee undocumented worker in a way that is extremely painful. Raise the ceiling on dollar amounts for the H2B by job class. Also double or triple the quarters to be "vested" in social security/disability.

Go after the easy reasons why folks come her for economic gains, this would still allow for approved refugees and legal immigration.

Also I don't believe in keeping this white American legacy. We are all humans, not a mixed species.

If we left it just to the European dissent to keep our population growing, we would be looking like Japan right now.

How about we just eliminate H2B visas, and just enforce the immigration laws -- meaning, you don't immigrate unless/until you get a visa? I haven't heard anyone say they are anti-immigration -- it's ILLEGAL immigration that's the problem.

And let's not forget that being here as an "illegal" (there's that word again) is, by definition, a crime. ALL illegal aliens are criminals.

Lastly, why do we need to keep our population growing?

[charby]

I agree with youThat is fine with me, it isn't realistic to try and get back to 95% white European descent.

But that still doesn't answer the question about who this countries government is supposed to be protecting. I don't conflate the economies numbers with the people.

The economy has done fine for some people but not for those in flyover (mostly white and legacy Americans), hence Trump.

Sorry for the no reply, norovirus hit me Friday night, finally feeling better.

So of the flyover isn't coming back unless there is something drastic changed at the federal level. I'm not talking the old factory towns, but small towns in agricultural areas. Farm programs starting in the 1960s started that trend, farm lending went from small local banks to government backed lending, push was made for farmers to go from livestock and crops to just row crops or large scale confinements. Diversity was gone from ag. Used to be much of the corn from farms stayed on the farms as feed and what little surplus there was was sold to the feed mill or local elevator. Yes, yields did improve a lot in the 1960s but government meddled and now farmers were selling grain and buying their grain back as feed so they can take advantage of the commodity/insurance/subisidy programs.

What does this mean, well the small town banks started closing up because the control of the money switched, this lead to less of a reason for folks to come to town. Also feed mills shut down, slaughter houses closed or got bought up by bigger outfits, giant grain elevatators began to appear, livestock auction houses disappeared because the packing industry went to contract buying, etc.

So small towns got smaller, hardware stores closed, restaurants closed, etc.

in the Midwest 80's ag crisis happened, it was like 2007 for many Midwestern states. Small towns lost their small equipment manufacturing base due to the buyers having not money or equipment was too small for the bigger producers who weathered the crisis.

Also the packing house unions were busted about that time, so wages went from a decent living to crap. Have you noticed a big change in price for meat from the 1980's to now? Also the big packing houses moved from urban areas to more rural areas where they can be closer to the livestock producers but also could pay a lot less because there were a lot of out of work people in the rural areas.

[charby]

How about we just eliminate H2B visas, and just enforce the immigration laws -- meaning, you don't immigrate unless/until you get a visa? I haven't heard anyone say they are anti-immigration -- it's ILLEGAL immigration that's the problem.

And let's not forget that being here as an "illegal" (there's that word again) is, by definition, a crime. ALL illegal aliens are criminals.

Lastly, why do we need to keep our population growing?

Be easier to go after the employers, then the incentive to illegally immigrate is reduced.

There is a need to H2B visas, but they need to stop being abused because people don't want to pay market wages for talent.

If you need certain skilled workers, they you should pay market wages, if not your company is not as successful are you think it is, perhaps pay your management team a little less?