Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: vaskidmark on November 27, 2008, 11:01:25 AM
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2138289/posts
Get out the popcorn and pull up a chair. We're going to have a chance to see a company "Zumbo-ed" - but I doubt there will be any chance of them redeeming themselves.
The comments are pretty much what one would expect. I wish more folks had indicated they emailed the company and expressed how they felt about the decision to hire Horiuchi.
stay safe.
skidmark
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did they hire him?
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I understood they simply printed a glowing testimonial from him on the back of their catalog.
I cannot conceive of who in marketing thought that would be a good idea.
In some cases, in some communities, there is such a thing as bad press.
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sadly not everyone remembers
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Body of email sent to H-S Precision (info@hsprecision.com):
"The Federal agent who shot Vicki Weaver in the face, deliberately, while she was unarmed and holding her child is named Lon Horiuchi. Remember that name. He is still walking around loose. That man must eventually pay for his crime, here or hereafter. Lon Horiuchi."
----Jeff Cooper
I included the words of Jeff Cooper because it seems you have forgotten what Mr. Horiuchi did, as is evidenced by your employment of the man (or merely his endorsement) as "FBI Program Manager & COTR."
A scan of your catalog can be found here, with Mr. Horiuchi's name and his title at your company toward the bottom.
http://www.angelqueen.org/images/misc/hs_precision.jpg
Since you do not hold the killing of innocent women against prospective employees, perhaps I can be of use to H-S Precision's HR department. I would require only the standard headhunter fee to provide more like Mr. Horiuchi from such exotic locales such as the former Yugslavia, Darfur, various South American countries, and other far-flung places. Just think of the diversity claims you can make once you have a certified mother-killer on your payroll from every continent! Just think of the colorful endorsements they can make as to the efficacy of H-S Precision's products at killing mothers from inconvenient and despised groups.
I eagerly await your response to my recruiting proposal.
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did they hire him?
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Did anyone even bother to verify this as real and not a photochop before beating on the company?
Because Free Republic has never, ever had fake stuff put up...
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It's been verified by bloggers who have called the company and asked them...
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would it be more accurate/truthful to say they printed and endorsement letter as part of their catalog?
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C&SD, why are you being so damned obtuse (again)?
H-S Precision used Lon Horiuchi's endorsement on the back cover of their catalogue.
It didn't matter whether he's on their payroll or not.
They used an endorsement from the Lon Horiuchi, which is in no uncertain terms a huge marketing blunder, even if that catalogue is for law enforcement use vs. their normal commercial venue.
It's similar to using O.J. Simpson to endorse cutlery, or Jeffrey Dahmer to endorse cookware.
I'm somewhat saddened that my Remington 700PSS has an H-S Precision stock, honestly.
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i suspect either they decided with their market horiuchi's fbi creds and endorsement were more asset than liability (unlikely but possible) or that someone whose raison d'etre is not guns was hired to produce a catalog and handed a folder full of material to work with. sadly very few folks know or care about horiuchi or more importantly the folks who wrote, signed off on and then tried to cover up the rules of engagement at ruby ridge
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sadly not everyone remembers
Remember HELL!
Ask a 1000 people on the street who Lon Horiuchi is and what he did and you'll be lucky if even 1 can answer.
Its not that everyone doesn't remember its that most never even knew.
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too true most don't know what ruby ridge was much less the players. nor do they care
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I'm somewhat sadened that my Remington 700PSS has an H-S Precision stock, honestly.
Well, I was considering HS Precision for a stock for when I build my precision rifle...
Needless to say, I'm not anymore.
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Revisiting the story of RR and actors involved has ruined my Thanksgiving. I needed to reflect on our recent history. All of us should teach the kids those facts the gov will leave out of the written history they do not teach in schools.
This subject makes me physically ill.
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So when Horiuchi boasts of the accuracy of the rifle, does that mean that every shot he took with said rifles hit exactly what he was aiming for?
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Good Lord, at least all HK did was put the rounds in backwards. This is just about the worst thing I've ever seen a gun company do. Idiots :mad:
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Is this really all that hard to believe? I don't expect a gun company marketing dept. (or whatever contractor they might hire) to know anything about Lon Horiuchi, except for the law enforcement credentials he gave them.
Or is it customary to google these people, or do a background check, before you put their endorsement ALL OVER the back of your catalog? Which, now that I think about it, makes perfect sense.
The first hit I got when I googled him was the Wiki entry, which basically says, "He's an FBI sniper who got in hot water for killin' a chick at Ruby Ridge, and may have shot some people at Waco." I wouldn't be accepting any endorsements from him, after reading that.
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Gotta go with Fistful.
Even if you're just a marketing droid, isn't the finished artwork for the company's biggest promo piece something you'd at least run by the execs? Especially if it has a cool endorsement?
And, if you're a company exec, what are the odds you don't know the names of all the famous (and notorious) long range precision shooters out there?
Someone screwed the pooch on this.
That's gonna leave a mark.
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Any statement out of the company?
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In the thread on arfcom (HERE (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=793025)) one of the guys who called them was told that the owner is a personal friend of Horiuchi.
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In the thread on arfcom (HERE (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=793025)) one of the guys who called them was told that the owner is a personal friend of Horiuchi.
Well, isn't that just awesome. =|
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So when Horiuchi boasts of the accuracy of the rifle, does that mean that every shot he took with said rifles hit exactly what he was aiming for?
:lol: pwnd!
In the thread on arfcom (HERE) one of the guys who called them was told that the owner is a personal friend of Horiuchi.
If this is true then this would shoot down Mr. Tactical pants otherwise excellent post.
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Why the hell would you care what the commoners think when you are selling to the Kings Men?
I would refer all of you to Gerry Spence's Book on Ruby Ridge, an excellent account.
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Supposedly, that back cover catalogue endorsement was for an LE-only catalogue.
Regardless, the LE I worked with and know still consider Horiuchi a base criminal, at best.
This will not bode well for H-S Precision.
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If he was the one that shot Vicki Weaver, does anyone remember who shot the Weaver's 13 year-old son in the back?
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wasn't it the dead marshall? deagan?
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wasn't it the dead marshall? deagan?
From what I've read, Degan did shoot the Weaver's dog (the event that allegedly triggered the firefight between the Feds and Weaver and Harris that day), and may have been the one to shoot Sam in the back, as well. The latter point is subject to MUCH conjecture, from what I can tell - lots of different stories floating around out there.
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true its the most convenient story
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I would say that a lot of people know what Ruby Ridge is, but most don't know the names involved. I didn't. You have to read a bit more than the summary accounts to remember the names.
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I would say that a lot of people know what Ruby Ridge is, but most don't know the names involved. I didn't. You have to read a bit more than the summary accounts to remember the names.
But even if they did - read the accounts, learn the names and take the time to think about it how many would care? How many would say Weaver got exactly what he deserved and it's just too bad about his wife and son? they wouldn't believe he was set up at all.
IMO most would say the governent was just doing it's job enforcing gun laws and write the whole thing off as an if you can't do the time don't do the crime situation.
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But even if they did - read the accounts, learn the names and take the time to think about it how many would care? How many would say Weaver got exactly what he deserved and it's just too bad about his wife and son? they wouldn't believe he was set up at all.
IMO most would say the governent was just doing it's job enforcing gun laws and write the whole thing off as an if you can't do the time don't do the crime situation.
That's because most don't take the time to learn the facts.
Thankfully, the civil action saw right through that. Though, I'm sure that the Weavers would much rather have their family back.
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Remember HELL!
Ask a 1000 people on the street who Lon Horiuchi is and what he did and you'll be lucky if even 1 can answer.
Its not that everyone doesn't remember its that most never even knew.
1000 people on the street might not know. But I'd bet if you asked 1000 gun owners (i.e. H-S Precision customers), then many would in fact know.
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Anybody hear anything from the H-S Precision side yet?
(Conspicuously quiet...)
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1000 people on the street might not know. But I'd bet if you asked 1000 gun owners (i.e. H-S Precision customers), then many would in fact know.
Indeed. I'd always heard of H-S as a rather high end precision rifle place. More serious shooters, less FUDDs. I'd imagine among those serious about long range rifle work the name of that murdering bastard would be well known.
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Anybody hear anything from the H-S Precision side yet?
(Conspicuously quiet...)
I sent them an email stating my displeasure about their choice of who endorses their products the same day I posted this topic. No response yet. Nothing seen on any of the other boards that anyone else communicating with H S has gotten a response. Very quiet indeed.
stay safe.
skidmark
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I suspect H-S is in full "damage control" mode . . . probably trying to figure out how to defuse the outrage without actually apologizing for using Horiuchi's endorsement. ("We can do no wrong . . . ")
It won't surprise me if they initially come out with an "explanation" rather than an "apology" . . . something along the lines of the "Absolut" vodka company's response to criticism of their ad which showed a good part of the USA as belonging to Mexico. :rolleyes:
As for me . . . I noticed that Brownell's had a couple of pages of H-S gunstocks listed in their catalog, so I dropped a note to their customer service people, just letting them know what one of their vendors is up to. :angel:
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autoeroticism aside what is it folks imagine they accomplish is this supposed to hurt horiuchi? hes gonna be upset that a letter he wrote several years ago migt get pulled from a catalog?
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Its important that people not forget what happened at RR and never forgive those in positions of power who were responsible for its use.
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i'm just curious about how lil noise is made about all the other players in that tragedy. of course part of the problem with folks looking at ruby ridge is they need to shovel a ton of manure to get to it. much sturmfront and tinfoil to fight through
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i'm just curious about how lil noise is made about all the other players in that tragedy. of course part of the problem with folks looking at ruby ridge is they need to shovel a ton of manure to get to it. much sturmfront and tinfoil to fight through
I think few here believe Randy Weaver was the sort of guy they'd like to have as a neighbor (though I've had worse) - his separatist beliefs kill his popularity. Understandably, a lot of people don't want to listen to him about that, and the general media is not about to put the Weavers on a pedestal. Now, if he were an ACLU member, maybe things would be different . . .
Nonetheless, he & his family aren't viewed as the sort of criminals that merited death at the hands of government operatives . . . government operatives that many believe got away with murder.
In the case of Horiuchi, they believe that was literally what happened.
That the Weavers were paid around $3,000,000 by the government in the aftermath is a good indicator of who was really in the wrong.
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i think its strange how the marshalls service started the killing and the atf the original case with the informant and yet they get less stick than the fbi. and the amount of noise this case generates is amazing. folks will talk about how they've read up on it and (gasp) seen the videos and still claim horiuchi killed sammy. this case is a textbook example of how not to.
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I don't think anyone who's written to HS is trying to hurt Horiuchi by doing so. I think the idea is to hurt HS for getting in bed with him.
And the reason he gets the most hate is A. He has a name and a face as opposed to "the ATF" & B. He shot an unarmed woman in the face. If you can't understand why that would rile people up a bit.......
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i take it then you are amongst those that believe that was his intended shot?
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I'm with HankB in that I don't care for Randy Weaver even a little, BUT, we're supposed to have the right to be left the hell alone as long as we're not bothering anyone else. He wasn't, but the Feds wanted to make use of him and when he declined their offer (read: attempt at coercion) they decided to screw him, and did. They screwed themselves in the process, got people killed, and we the taxpayers had to pony up blood money for their mistakes. I don't begrudge him or his children the money (even though it surely won't bring his wife and son back so what's the point?), I just would rather the people that did it had had to cough up.
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He wasn't, but the Feds wanted to make use of him and when he declined their offer (read: attempt at coercion) they decided to screw him, and did.
seems you over looked him and the sawed off shotguns.
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CSD:
The FBI is larger and generally takes over when incidents take too long to resolve or are larger than the initial federale agency wants to handle.
The Feebs also set the standard for other agencies to follow.
In the case of RR, the dog-shooting and the son-shooting are outrageous, but are overshadowed by the killing of the unarmed mother.
In the case of Waco, the ATF started the mess, but it was the Feebs who were in control when they decided to storm the place and turned a bunch of kids into crispy critters.
And don't underestimate the contempt in which the ATF is held. Not only are they evil, but they are incompetent in the way that a bunch of untrained kool-aid drinkers were able to give them a shellacking.
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One gun, theoretically 3/8 of an in or so too short, and we only have the feds word it was like that when sold.
But yeah, that fraction of an inch of wood justifies shooting his kid in the back and his unarmed wife in the face.
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He wasn't, but the Feds wanted to make use of him and when he declined their offer (read: attempt at coercion) they decided to screw him, and did.
seems you over looked him and the sawed off shotguns.
No, I didn't.
The Feds got one of their informants to pester Weaver to saw off and sell him the shotguns. He refused several times and then did it to get the guy out of his hair and off his nerves (and like Balog said, we only have the Feds word that they were too short when sold). Then the Feds came to him and said, "We gotcha, buddy. But, go to work for us and we'll overlook this little matter." He told 'em to screw and holed up in his cabin, and the rest eveolved from there.
Entrapment, and done not because he was a dangerous criminal or even potentially one based on any evidence, but because they wanted to make use of him.
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i feel for him on his loss. but its not like he didn't know that he was breaking the law and would be jammed up if caught.
if this was his legal defense
"Rather than seek a legal means to solve his problems, the Weaver family mounted a letter-writing crusade against the FBI. In February 1991, Vicki mailed two angry letters to the U.S. Attorney's Office in Boise. One was addressed to "The Queen of Babylon" and stated in part:
"A man cannot have two masters. Yahweh Yahshua Messiah, the anointed One of Saxon Israel is our law giver and our King. We will obey Him and no others. ... "a long forgotten wind is starting to blow. Do you hear the approaching thunder? It is that of the awakened Saxon. War is upon the land. The tyrants blood will flow."
The other letter was addressed to "Servant of the Queen of Babylon, Maurice O. Ellsworth, U.S. Attny." The greeting read:
"Yah-Yahshua the Messiah of Saxon Israel is our Advocate and our Judge.The stink of your lawless government has reached Heaven, the abode of Yahweh our Yahshua. Whether we live or whether we die, we will not bow to your evil commandments."" he had a shot at not guilty by reason of mental defect but not a good shot
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I don't see anything mentally defective about that.
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Not only was she married to a gun nut, she is a person of religion. Can't have that, can we?
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I see your point, casd, but don't entirely agree with it.
Near-lunatic fringe religious nutjobs, yes. But, he took his family to the real lunatic fringe nutjobs' church and didn't like it so he never went back. They may be birds of a feather in some ways but he didn't flock with them.
Dangerous criminals, no. He knew when the Feds showed up post-haste after the shotgun sale that it was a setup. The whole shitbag happened because the Feds were pissed that he didn't kowtow when they put his nuts in a wringer.
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so you are trying to assert that he was unaware that the shotguns were illegal?
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Don't be deliberately obtuse. It's not entertaining to anyone but you.
I'll restate, since you are making an effort to not get it although several of us have pointed it out in different ways: Maybe he cut them down to the illegal length because he thought he was doing a small favor for an an acquaintance while also making a buck. Maybe he made a mistake in the length when he cut them. Maybe they were legal when cut and the Feds re-cut them so a case could be made. In any event, the whole deal was a set-up by the Feds of a man who wanted nothing to do with them, so much so that he'd moved his family to the boondocks to avoid them. But they were miffed that he wouldn't bend his knee when they told him to and had to show him who was Boss. Now do you get it, or should I use smaller words?
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generally when someone answers a yes or no question with a paragraph they are trying to avoid an answer that leads where they don't want to go. is wife and kid died
don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
i think its a crying shame his wife and kid died.
and its a damn shame the government couldn't let him be. but as someone observed you will be judged by the company you keep. i admire him for not turning informant and i'll wager he wishes he hadn't allowed himself to be conned by the informant. but one truism i've observed is you can't con a truly honest man. and weaver was no dummy not too many green berets that aren't bright
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Three Million Dollars.
Damages.
For wrongful death and stuff.
I think the point was made, regardless of any failure to prosecute.
I presume that whoever awarded that judgment had more facts at hand than I do.
I bow to their better informed opinion.
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Three Million Dollars.
Damages.
For wrongful death and stuff.
I think the point was made, regardless of any failure to prosecute.
I presume that whoever awarded that judgment had more facts at hand than I do.
I bow to their better informed opinion.
$3.1 million, actually. Randy Weaver got $100,000, each of the three surviving children got $1 mil.
And all of the original charges were dropped against Randy Weaver, save for missing his original court date. Seems to me that the charges wouldn't have been dropped unless there was something seriously wrong with the foundations of the charges related to the short barrel shotguns.
In other words, either he was entrapped or he didn't actually do it.
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You do of course realize that Weaver was ultimately acquitted of the gun charges? Not that I care either way, of course.
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you do realize the cash was an out of court settlement?
and i agree the case was fubar coulda been tossed if the gov didn't drop it on their own uncle sam is funny bout not showing for court though
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you do realize the cash was an out of court settlement?
Why do you think people settle?
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generally 2 reasons. cost and to keep dirty laundry private.
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Why do you think people corporations and ABCs settle?
generally 2 reasons. cost and to keep dirty laundry private.
Fixed it for ya.
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people settle for the same reason. why do you think weaver settled?
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Why do you think people settle?
generally 2 reasons. cost and to keep dirty laundry private.
The real question is, if they had any case at all, why did THE GOVERNMENT, with armies of lawyers, unlimited time, and an unlimited budget, decide to settle?
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see above posts for why
you don't think weaver had ambulance chasers fist fighting for his case? dead son unarmed wife shot in head while holding the baby? there was lawyer drool on the floor.
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Now do you get it, or should I use smaller words?
Try'n keep it civil!
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I think few here believe Randy Weaver was the sort of guy they'd like to have as a neighbor (though I've had worse) - his separatist beliefs kill his popularity. Understandably, a lot of people don't want to listen to him about that, and the general media is not about to put the Weavers on a pedestal. Now, if he were an ACLU member, maybe things would be different . . .
We did have one of that sort here, Brown, the tax fraud nut who swore to kill the families of law enforcement.
Though we also have a shockingly competent marshal here who managed to capture a "you won't take me alive" sort who was constantly armed...without a shot fired and without anyone getting hurt, simply by outsmarting him.
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Generally, people who are being deliberately obtuse are just doing it to entertain themselves and be a puddin' stick.
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Generally, people who are being deliberately obtuse are just doing it to entertain themselves and be a puddin' stick.
generally folks hate when they use a quote that works against em so well. the one about being judged by the company you keep vis a vis weaver and those nice aryan nation boys he was "helping out" with the sawed offs being a case in point
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Rass.
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i just don't seem to be able to grap the subtle shadings that make a company like hs using a letter of endorsement from a person of rank in a government agency that chose their product is bad because the guy who wrote the letter did something horrific. where as randy weaver chosing to go several times to see the boyscouts at the aryan nation and agreeing to supply them with weapons (that you gotta figure a a guy smart enough to be a green beret knew were illegal) is ok. and that he should get a mulligan on those actions
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goin' nowhere fast...