Author Topic: Interesting article about UAV pilots  (Read 8400 times)

mellestad

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Interesting article about UAV pilots
« on: October 14, 2009, 04:43:32 PM »
http://www.esquire.com/features/unmanned-aircraft-1109

Article has some rough language and non-descriptive adult situations.

French G.

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 04:54:14 PM »
It always cracks me up that in every internal military mag, and also in this article, the pilots of the UAVs always are sporting flight suits. Just in case their computer console bursts into flames I suppose.  :lol: The CDI factor is ever present it seems. I am trying to imagine the leather aircrew jacketed UAV jockey flying the bar pick-up mission. Will he be careful to mention that he never leaves the ground? Will the story be enthralling, with a hint of cool in the face of mortal danger? Or will the F-15 driver out him amid much raucous laughter. Tune in next time on "So there I was..."
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Gewehr98

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 05:40:24 PM »
Ahem.

Know of which y'all speak, ok?

USAF UAV pilots are indeed rated pilots who've earned their wings in the cockpit of manned aircraft via Undergraduate and Graduate Pilot Training.  Some go right to UAVs, others fly manned aircraft then rotate to that duty later. They are, in fact, real pilots in every sense of the word. I cannot speak for Navy and USMC UAV pilots, but I do know how it works for bluesuiters.

I think it's safe to say they can wear flight suits with no disgrace, even though their current jobs lack the substance of G-forces and JP-8.

Before I retired from the B-52 and WC-135 world, I heard many sob stories about pilots who were being relegated to flying UAVs from trailers.  Due to the demands on the platforms by their customers, cockpit aviators have no choice when assigned UAV duties - the needs of the Air Force outweigh an individual's personal preferences.  Until such time as they can create a non-rated UAV pilot career field, that's how it'll be.  In the meantime, I wouldn't disparage the airmanship skills of UAV pilots, because chances are good the guy/gal was a former Fighter/Tanker/Transport/Bomber/Recce pilot before getting assigned his video game job...



« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 05:47:42 PM by Gewehr98 »
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mellestad

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 05:46:46 PM »
Ahem.

Know of which y'all speak, ok?

USAF UAV pilots are indeed rated pilots who've earned their wings in the cockpit of manned aircraft via Undergraduate and Graduate Pilot Training.  They are, in fact, real pilots in every sense of the word.



Yea, it even states in the article that there is not a single large-UAV pilot in the Air Force that is not a 'real' pilot.  It does say they have a pilot program where they are training people to fly UAVs who have never been in a cockpit though, and that they seem to be performing as well as the traditionally trained pilots.

MillCreek

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 05:55:52 PM »
Yea, it even states in the article that there is not a single large-UAV pilot in the Air Force that is not a 'real' pilot.  It does say they have a pilot program where they are training people to fly UAVs who have never been in a cockpit though, and that they seem to be performing as well as the traditionally trained pilots.

I have read about this also.  It is being done due to the shortage of UAV pilots.  It is thought that skipping conventional pilot training will dramatically shorten the training times.  I will be real interested to follow this to see the results.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 05:58:46 PM »
So, an unmanned air force can be deployed 24/7 around the world by 9-5 soccer dad pilots.

Hundreds of aircraft, tens of thousands of miles apart, can be controlled from a single facility in the Nevada desert.

So you can knock out all those UAV's by nuking the Nevada control facility.

Or bombing any single communications relay point that has no immediate redundancy.

I giggled at the guy in the flight suit, too.  This particular pilot happened to be a former F-16 jockey.  The next generation of 'em won't be though.
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mellestad

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 06:08:31 PM »
So, an unmanned air force can be deployed 24/7 around the world by 9-5 soccer dad pilots.

Hundreds of aircraft, tens of thousands of miles apart, can be controlled from a single facility in the Nevada desert.

So you can knock out all those UAV's by nuking the Nevada control facility.

Or bombing any single communications relay point that has no immediate redundancy.

I giggled at the guy in the flight suit, too.  This particular pilot happened to be a former F-16 jockey.  The next generation of 'em won't be though.

I doubt they plan on using human-controlled UAVs in any serious high-tech war, because of the limitations mentioned they seem to be more for 'counter-insurgency'.  They have great points about how much more effective a UAV is for that work than a F-16 though.  Cheaper ('only' a few million per aircraft), more hours in the sky (24 opposed to 1 or 2) and more accurate (because they can spend more time lining things up).  They are just using a more appropriate tool for the jobs in question. 

It will be interesting to see if the next generation of air to air fighters start leaning towards local computer control.  From my lay-persons perspective, it seems like you could make a good fighter platform by having a person tell the drone to go hot, then letting local programming take over to engage the target.  Even if it is not as effective on a 1-1 basis, you can probably get a handful of drones in the air for the price of every manned fighter.  Especially since 'dogfights' seem to have fallen to missile engagements.  I might be talking out my butt though.

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 06:14:35 PM »
I might be talking out my butt though.

I doubt it. It seems to me that the advantages of full or partially self-controlled AI aircraft will be in a position to beat the hell out of manned craft before too long. especially since their will be no need for highly experienced pilots who are all too mortal.

AJ Dual

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2009, 06:26:30 PM »
It's also a culture issue.

The Army is having no problems with teenaged UAV pilots who are enlisted. The operating paramaters and difficulty of certain UAV systems may well be different and require an expereinced pilot, but this is not the way things are headded.
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drewtam

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 06:32:44 PM »
It really depends on what enemy we are preparing to fight.

Somalia, Afghan, etc are not going to break our encrypted controls for remote UAVs. Remote UAVs are the way to go for these fights.

But a China could definitely put remote directed UAVs in disadvantage by cracking or jamming the communications signal.

To counter a superior threat like that, we would require real pilots or self directed AI. As far as I know, both are available. I do not know how much the AI has been deployed/tested. [Aerial AI is much easier than the ground combat AI that is still in development.]
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Leatherneck

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2009, 06:41:56 PM »
Interesting issue.

As an attack pilot, I tend to giggle at the presumptive fighter jock wannabees. But they do a good job at what they do. I would say this: some warfare is changing. UAVs are useful tools for some combat situations--long, boring surveillance missions with a limited strike capability for instance.

They're still fighting for our country; don't lose sight of that.

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mellestad

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 07:07:06 PM »
It really depends on what enemy we are preparing to fight.

Somalia, Afghan, etc are not going to break our encrypted controls for remote UAVs. Remote UAVs are the way to go for these fights.

But a China could definitely put remote directed UAVs in disadvantage by cracking or jamming the communications signal.

To counter a superior threat like that, we would require real pilots or self directed AI. As far as I know, both are available. I do not know how much the AI has been deployed/tested. [Aerial AI is much easier than the ground combat AI that is still in development.]
Interesting issue.

As an attack pilot, I tend to giggle at the presumptive fighter jock wannabees. But they do a good job at what they do. I would say this: some warfare is changing. UAVs are useful tools for some combat situations--long, boring surveillance missions with a limited strike capability for instance.

They're still fighting for our country; don't lose sight of that.

TC

Those two posts pretty much sum it up.  The military as a whole needs two separate doctrines, one for first world confrontations and one for the kind of thing going on in Afghanistan.

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 07:19:17 PM »
UAVs are useful tools for some combat situations--long, boring surveillance missions with a limited strike capability for instance.

TC

And frontline recon both land and sea. Smaller UAVs like the Silver Fox can be launched from a 50 cal mount and operated with pretty minimal training. The ground station goes wherever you go, and the UAV is expendable if recovery isn't an option.

As for the flightsuits, I'd expect those are simply the assigned Uniform of the Day, no?
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French G.

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 08:11:05 PM »
I know they are real pilots ok! I was just cracking wise about the propensity for pilots to wear flight suits at any possible excuse. Technically in the Navy you wear them if you are on the flight schedule that day. At sea, who cares, just wear something more than shower shoes please. It was always hilarious watching the CO(also a pilot) of our shore squadron get irritated when the entire stick puller legion would show up to a no-fly day safety standdown in flight suits. If asked they would to a (wo)man claim to be on the duty crew.  =D
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RevDisk

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 08:21:17 PM »
It's also a culture issue.

The Army is having no problems with teenaged UAV pilots who are enlisted. The operating paramaters and difficulty of certain UAV systems may well be different and require an expereinced pilot, but this is not the way things are headded.

Army enlisted teenagers have a better track record than rated USAF pilots on not bending the birds.  No, I'm not kidding.

1) Apparently the kiddos are willing to let the drone autopilot more often.  They're comfortable punching in "Point A, Point B, go"  Rated pilots tend to statistically want more direct control, which increases the likelihood of an accident.
2) The teens have autoland on their UAV's.  The USAF expressly did not want that feature.  Single biggest cause of UAV fatalities is landing.
3) Culture.  The Army kiddos love their shiney UAV's and it's not unlikely they know at least someone that they are supporting.  It's a voluntary MOS, with a lot of folks who want to do it.  Few if any US Army UAV operators were forced into the job.  USAF pilots tend to be less than pleased about being assigned to UAV duty.  I'm not claiming the USAF personnel are unprofessional, but motivation does matter.


And I've never heard it publicly stated, but I think communication matters.  The teens piloting a UAV tend to be deployed in theater.  USAF domestically operate deployed UAV's.  The kiddos generally have more complete information as they're physically in the same country as the UAV's, as they are often within stone's throw of the TOC if not in the same building.  

Another problem for the USAF is that the US Army did not fully disclose information and lessons learned to the USAF.  It has been alleged that this was retaliation for the USAF trying to dismantle the US Army UAV project. 

LC, you remember John Young's comments?


Disclaimer:  I work for a UAV manufacturer.  All comments and opinions are my own, and I do not speak for any current, past or future employers.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 08:27:39 PM by RevDisk »
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Gewehr98

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2009, 08:28:13 PM »
Must be a Navy thing.  I seldom wore anything other than the Nomex flight suit in day-to-day operations, save for when we had formal occasions requiring dress blues, or on details requiring BDU/ACU uniforms.  If you're rated, you're also going by the "gate" system, and drawing flight pay regardless of how many hours/month you've accrued once you've met certain "gates". So you're still earning your flight pay while wearing the uniform.

After 9/11, even the rated aircrew types assigned to Air Staff were required to wear their flight suits as their everyday uniform. I liken it to occupational badges/uniforms, and the requirement to wear what your career field calls for.
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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2009, 09:17:48 PM »
My experience in the Army & later in industry mirrors RevDisk's.  In teh Army, it is enlisted folk who jockey the UAVs.  And a lot of them are gals.  There is no stigma or second-rated-ness attached to the job.

Do not expect autonomous engagement any time soon.  Our .mil leaders still want a human in the loop to drop the hammer and will until some enemy shows that to be untenable.

Tack on appropriate disclaimers.
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mellestad

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2009, 09:27:17 PM »
Do not expect autonomous engagement any time soon.  Our .mil leaders still want a human in the loop to drop the hammer and will until some enemy shows that to be untenable.

Can you imagine the PR nightmare about the headline, "Military robot goes berserk, kills busload of nuns"?

Still, it has to be awfully tempting to let the genie out of the bottle in some limited capacity.

roo_ster

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2009, 09:52:48 PM »
Can you imagine the PR nightmare about the headline, "Military robot goes berserk, kills busload of nuns"?

Still, it has to be awfully tempting to let the genie out of the bottle in some limited capacity.

My stock phrase with regard to the "CNN Effect" and strict rules of engagement often is "busload of hemophiliac nuns."

Think about it:
1. We use some sort of autonomous engagement.
2. Either through espionage or trial & error, the enemy figures out what sets off the engagement logic.
3. Enemy dresses up the "busload of hemophiliac nuns" with heat sources and/or IR masking to look like a threat to an IR sensor--but still obviously a busload of nuns to the naked eye.  Say, an AAA unit or C2 unit.
4. Our Robo-plane blasts the hell of it while hte enemy videotapes it.
5. Footage ends up on CNN of our UAVs cruelly and deliberately targeting hemophiliac nuns, orphans, and the Iranian delegation to the Special Olympics.
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roo_ster

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mellestad

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2009, 09:57:56 PM »
My stock phrase with regard to the "CNN Effect" and strict rules of engagement often is "busload of hemophiliac nuns."

Think about it:
1. We use some sort of autonomous engagement.
2. Either through espionage or trial & error, the enemy figures out what sets off the engagement logic.
3. Enemy dresses up the "busload of hemophiliac nuns" with heat sources and/or IR masking to look like a threat to an IR sensor--but still obviously a busload of nuns to the naked eye.  Say, an AAA unit or C2 unit.
4. Our Robo-plane blasts the hell of it while hte enemy videotapes it.
5. Footage ends up on CNN of our UAVs cruelly and deliberately targeting hemophiliac nuns, orphans, and the Iranian delegation to the Special Olympics.

The article has a good quote where the UAV pilots have video demonstrating that already.  They hit a guy who was launching mortars and his buddies throw all the weapons away so it looks like a civilian casualty.

I think you might see engagements though where a human hits the go button and then the machine takes over actual combat, especially in the air where IFF is probably simpler.

Terminator is a long ways away though...just because of what you are saying.  From a technical standpoint, there really isn't any reason why we couldn't plunk a machine down right now that follows a patrol path and shoots anything that moves, and do so far faster than a human can react.

MillCreek

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2009, 10:01:51 PM »
Over the past year or so, I have read a number of articles in Aviation Week and Space Technology arguing that the F-22/F-35/Foreign equivalents may be the last generation of manned fighters.  Given the long service life of contemporary airframes and the advances in UAVs, human- or autonomous- controlled UAV fighter or attack airframes may come within our lifetimes or almost certainly that of our children. 
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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2009, 11:38:27 PM »
This thread discussion brings to mind this quote by Gen. Patton.

"All of this talk about super-weapons and push-button warfare is a pile of junk.  Man is the only war machine.  Man has to drive tanks, fly planes, crawl through the mud, pull the triggers, and push the buttons.  We must train to be strong in body and in mind.  Always remember man is the only war machine."           

General George S. Patton, Jr. 

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2009, 12:04:25 AM »
From a technical standpoint, there really isn't any reason why we couldn't plunk a machine down right now that follows a patrol path and shoots anything that moves, and do so far faster than a human can react.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybaPJ51u1sI

And that was made by a kid.  A bored kid.
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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2009, 12:59:38 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybaPJ51u1sI

And that was made by a kid.  A bored kid.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Interesting article about UAV pilots
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2009, 01:01:14 AM »
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