Ahh... more unintended consequences...

[jackdanson]

watched them raise their lil angel the "right way" . chasing the lil heathen around the yard trying to beg good behavior from him.   some of you might hav heard of the lil angel  he murdered the 8 year old neighbor girl and stuffed her corpse under the water bed.  and mommy and daddy defended him to the end.  daddy the shrink was extra special.  it was the ll girls fault  she shouldn't have come over

That is a freak occurence.  Go to an adult prison and see how many inmates parents thought spanking was a good idea.  Guarantee you it is more than the average population. 

[Marnoot]

I'll guarantee that those in prison who were spanked were also abused either through excessive/unreasonable spanking, or likely through other means such as good old fashioned beatings. Not a good sample population to make a general statement that spanking = maladjusted adult.

[AJ Dual]

Correlation does not equal causation.

It could also be that criminaly preidposed children act out and engender more corporal punishment from their parents.

[brimic]

One alternate view: For reasons unknown, some parents are blessed with good kids who don't merit spanking or anything beyond admonishment and explaining things, while other parents have bad kids who require more discipline including spanking as punishment.

I have one of each.

I don't think a 3 year old can comprehend it in that manner.  They just associate "you didn't something I don't like" with "I hit you".

Believe me, 3 year olds are much smarter than you think they are. The 7 year old in my house is fairly responsible, honest, and well behaved most of the time. The 3 year old is very good at lying, hiding her actions, and manipulating adults. She not only knows that she is doing something wrong when she's doing it, but she is smart enough to try to cover it up or disguise it as some other activity.

Trying to discipline both in the same manner is punding square pegs into round holes. You need to do what works for each individual. My 7 year old son can be easily leveraged with the threat of taking away the Wii or TV for a day or a week, likewise its also the carrot if he does his chores. The 3 year old pushes her boundaries much harder and needs more correction at times, especially if she does something potentially dangerous.

[Jocassee]

What Ambulance said.

[brimic]

That is a freak occurence.  Go to an adult prison and see how many inmates parents thought spanking was a good idea.  Guarantee you it is more than the average population.

Just about all kids were spanked up until about 20 or so years ago when the new age child psychology became popular. I high percentage of 30 year olds in prison were spanked, but doubtfully any different than the percentage that are not in prison.

[Perd Hapley]

You are indirectly teaching a child that it's OK to cause physical pain to somone who behaves in a way you don't like.

So you'll teach your kids that it's OK to put someone in time out, when they behave in a way you don't like? 

I rarely meet someone who wasn't spanked who has serious behavior issues as an adult.

I find it hard to believe that you know anything about the type of discipline used by the parents of most people you meet. 

As I stated my wife somehow manages to keep 10 one to five year olds in line without laying a finger on them.

Of course she doesn't lay a finger on them.  She's not allowed to.  My wife is also a pre-school teacher.  She knows the methods.  But she's not opposed to spanking, in principle. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

That is a freak occurence.  Go to an adult prison and see how many inmates parents thought spanking was a good idea.  Guarantee you it is more than the average population. 

do share with us/me your experience's in the house of many doors. your guarantee has questionable value.particularly to me.
 there are 13 kids in my drug court group   12 of them unspanked

[Balog]

What Ambulance said.

This.

Just about all kids were spanked up until about 20 or so years ago when the new age child psychology became popular. I high percentage of 30 year olds in prison were spanked, but doubtfully any different than the percentage that are not in prison.

Also this.

[jackdanson]

I've never heard of a child pyschiatrist reccomending spanking.  C&S I have a hard time believing that twelve of thirteen kids in a drug program have no physical abuse in their past.  In fact I'm certain they do have some sort of history... Or in the very least parents who are addicts. (or they are kids who got busted with a joint once and aren't really addicts)

There are waaaay more factors in these things than whether or not a kid was spanked.  My parents somehow managed to raise two normal well adjusted kids without hitting us.  My wife was spanked in a reasonable manner and it has effected her in a negative way. (I don't want to get too personal)

I just think it's messed up, I can't imagine spanking my dog, much less my child.  ( and yes, my dog behaves great!). I know it can be traumatic for the child and permenantly effect the way they think.

It also seems like subcultures who support physical punishment are the same ones who have higher violent crime rates.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

It also seems like subcultures who support physical punishment are the same ones who have higher violent crime rates.
\


you mean thats what you imagine right?  as opposed to being able to support with facts?
Youth Violence on Rise in Germany

The pint-sized but burly 12-year-old made clear what he had in mind when he dragged a 13-year-old female classmate to a remote corner of the schoolyard after school let out -- "If you don't play along, I'll make you dead," he told the terrified girl. After beating her nearly unconscious, he raped her.

The incident, uncovered recently by horrified teachers at a small-town school near Munich, would have triggered banner headlines across Germany a decade ago. Instead, it was either ignored or buried on inside pages -- just another routine statistic reflecting the drastic rise in violence among German youth.

"While violence at our schools and among our youth generally is constantly becoming more brutal, for some reason it's a taboo subject," editorialized Munich's mass circulation daily TZ. "But keeping quiet about it will not stop the spiral of violence."

According to government data, youths between the ages of 14 and 18 accounted for a record 13 percent of the total felonies committed in Germany in 1998. Children under 14 committed an unprecedented 6.6 percent of all serious offenses during the same period, and preliminary findings indicate a similar trend for 1999 and last year. While most of the offenses committed by youths are in the category of shoplifting, theft or burglaries, more and more youngsters also are being charged with blackmail and robbery as well as grievous assault causing bodily harm.

Even more unnerving, murder and criminal manslaughter increasingly appear on the list of juvenile crimes:

    * The principal of a boarding school at Bad Aibling, southeast of Munich, was shot dead last year by a 16-year-old pupil angry because he was expelled from school for bad behavior.
    * Five passers-by were killed and several seriously injured when a 16-year- old boy shot at them with an automatic rifle from his home at Bad Reichenhall, a south German health spa. Before police could overpower him, the youth committed suicide.
    * A teacher was stabbed to death in a Meisson (eastern Germany) classroom by a 15-year-old in front of 24 classmates.

longer article here

http://www.cyc-net.org/today2001/today010321.htmlpanking   heck yelling at your kids is verbotten  its working great!

the kids in drug court weren't spanked  some were abused but they weren't spanked  often mommy was a new age single mom trying to compensate.   sorry my reality isn't supportive of your theory

my 8 year old has been whacked 3 times  she is still outraged over it.  but if you ask her when was last time she can't really tell you it was 5 years ago or more.  you hopefully shouldn't have to hit em often but them knowing you will if they push their luck is a great stick when balanced with praise for doing well and fostering an attitude where they enjoy making mommy and daddy happy by being good.  i can say 3 words in a non loud voice but a serious tone of voice and my critters toe the line .  i on the other hand was a hellion got tagged regular and didn't give a hoot.

[Perd Hapley]

 In fact I'm certain they do have some sort of history... Or in the very least parents who are addicts. (or they are kids who got busted with a joint once and aren't really addicts)

You're "certain" about details you couldn't possibly know?  You're certain that the kids were either spanked, abused, had parents who were addicts or are not really addicts, or one of the above?  My head hurts from trying to follow all of these things you're so certain about. 

There are waaaay more factors in these things than whether or not a kid was spanked.  

But you have been talking as if spanking ruins kids, and crediting a lack of spanking for people's good behavior.    Which is it? 

My parents somehow managed to raise two normal well adjusted kids without hitting us.

 

That's good, but we were talking about spanking, not hitting. 

I just think it's messed up, I can't imagine spanking my dog

Huh?  Why?

I know it can be traumatic for the child and permenantly effect the way they think.

Do you?

It also seems like subcultures who support physical punishment are the same ones who have higher violent crime rates.

But you said there were waaaaaay more factors.   

[jackdanson]

It could also be that criminaly preidposed children act out and engender more corporal punishment from their parents.

Well if they are criminals the spanking obviously didn't have the intended preventive effect.

you mean thats what you imagine right?  as opposed to being able to support with facts?

Black parents are more likely to use physical punishment.  (a whoopin, if you will) Black adults are more likely to commit violent crimes.  Not saying that is a cause and effect, but it seems as though any subculture that supports physical punishment also tends to have more violent adults.  Meanwhile there are many countries in western Europe that ban or frown upon corporal punishment and their violent crime rates are significantly lower than the U.S.  Once again, not necessarily a cause and effect, but you seem to be implying that without physical punishment our society would go to hell in a hand basket, when that is obviously not the case.

often mommy was a new age single mom trying to compensate.

Unstable home.... shhhocking.  I'm sure new age single moms don't have any drug addled boyfriends around to influence the child.  I'm sure if new age mom just spanked the child they would straighten up right quicklike, regardless of their bad home life.

You're "certain" about details you couldn't possibly know?  You're certain that the kids were either spanked, abused, had parents who were addicts or are not really addicts, or one of the above?  My head hurts from trying to follow all of these things you're so certain about.

C&S stated himself that many were abused. (I'm either psychic or I kind of know what I'm talking about)  And not every person that was molested or hit is going to tell you about it.  People who are addicts follow a common line.  They are sexually or physically abused, or had a parent who used drugs.  Obviously this isn't 100% of the time, but frankly I've never met an addict who didn't fall into one of these two categories.  Notice I said addict.  A 17 year old getting busted with a one hitter and a baggie of weed isn't necessarily an addict and every one of us did things of varying stupidity in our younger days.

That's good, but we were talking about spanking, not hitting.

Spanking is hitting.. same thing.  OK, it's open-hand hitting. 

Quote
I just think it's messed up, I can't imagine spanking my dog
Huh?  Why?

Well for one, she has no butt to spank.  Secondly, for some reason I feel bad about hitting something that is defenseless.  Furthermore my dog behaves just fine without punishing her in any pain-causing way.  Snap my fingers or say "NO" and she stops what she is doing.  I tap her (like the dog whisperer) on occasion, but that is the limit of my physical punishment.  I don't slap my wife no matter how crazy she's acting.  At what age do you stop spanking?  What if your child has a mental handicap and the intellect of a 3 year old?  Could you then hit spank a 19 year old?

Quote
I know it can be traumatic for the child and permanently effect the way they think.
Do you?

I had a girlfriend who's dad spanked her a couple times (when she was under 10 years old).  When he would do it she would try to stop him so he'd hold her hands down with one hand and spank her with the other.  This manifested itself later in her life in a sexual manner.  Things that are traumatic as a child can be arousing as an adult.  She didn't realize the correlation until I pointed it out.  She was literally re-enacting the exact same thing down to very minor details.... seriously... efffed... up.  And she wasn't "abused" and her dad wasn't a bad guy, but she did tell me that when he did it she was terrified.  Women will act out sexually, men will act out violently when abused.  Being caused pain by someone who you are terrified of is traumatic.  And by it's nature spanking is meant to cause physical pain and fear. 

I know we aren't going to come to an agreement on this, I really understand where you are coming from, but I really just don't agree.  I've never seen any data that shows spanking a child is more likely to result in a well-behaved adult.  I have seen things stating the opposite.  I talked to many people at both my jobs today about this.  One girl stated "I know spanking "kidsname" doesn't prevent him from doing something bad in the future, but it really can relieve some stress".  Unfortunately for every person that uses physical punishment "appropriately" it seems there are many more who use it as a way to vent anger.  I've never seen a kid spanked calmly in public, it's always in an irresponsible and immature manner.  I don't think that using physical punishment in a responsible manner on very rare occasions is going to result in damage to the child.  I do believe that it is a possibility though, I would not risk that with my own children.  As I stated, my parents never spanked me.  They did spank my sister for a few years before I was born, she had significantly more behavior problems as a child than I did.  I don't think the spanking caused it, but I don't think it would have stopped it either.

[S. Williamson]

I was spanked sporadically after the age of five.

I was hit once.  And that one time, I actually deserved it.  I won't go into details, nor do I hold it against the hitter, for they apologized profusely the next day and I got free ice cream. 

There is a difference.  When I unknowingly broke the rules, my parents had the good graces of explaining to my why it was wrong.  If I did it again, despite the intelligent discourse beforehand, that's when the spanking was given.  Things like using a riding lawnmower as a go-kart, no explanation was needed and it was an immediate "go fetch the wooden spoon."  Racial epithets got the discussion, and never needed a spanking afterwards (I was ridiculed a LOT as a kid for my size, and was able to draw a correlation pretty well).

As a result, I was able to see how and why every spanking I got was justified.

Spanking is wrong only when it is done without the kid knowing why.  If I have kid(s), I plan on using exactly the same technique my parents used with me, as it seemed to work pretty well.

[KD5NRH]

What do you do when the time-outs, the sticker chart behavior system etc. don't work?

http://www.taser.com/products/law/Pages/TASERXREP.aspx

How about when you've got four kids about the same age acting that way?

http://www.chiefsupply.com/Law_Enforcement/Chemical_Munitions/Chemical_Munitions/32CSRBG

Spankings don't sound so bad anymore, do they?  After all, if you're not going to discipline them effectively, you might as well get them ready for what they'll be getting later in life.

[zahc]

Unfortunately for every person that uses physical punishment "appropriately" it seems there are many more who use it as a way to vent anger.

Venting anger isn't appropriate? When I was a child, I learned that it was not a good idea to make my parents angry.

[BridgeRunner]

Venting anger isn't appropriate? When I was a child, I learned that it was not a good idea to make my parents angry.

So did I.  It's amazing how much a person's whole life can change without the parents' knowledge when the parents have done their best to make sure the kid is afraid to tell the parents anything that might make them angry. 

Further, according to a family law judge of my acquaintance, most girls seeking judicial override of the need for their parents consent to an abortion are seeking it simply because tehy are afraid of their parents' anger. 

No, I don't want my kids to be afraid to make me angry.  Best way I can think of to guarantee I am denied essential information down the road.

[Balog]

Spanking your kid as a means of stress relief is abusive. If hurting your child makes you feel good you need serious help.

[Fjolnirsson]

Spanking your kid as a means of stress relief is abusive. If hurting your child makes you feel good you need serious help.

Binog. I'd say the same about yelling at them. Sooo, if not spanking your kid causes you to yell at them, because well, SOMETHING must be done, where does that leave us?

So, here's the question. Sometimes children do things which warrant immediate correction. Running into traffic, touching the stove, etc. You can't always hover right there over your child. There needs to be some way to stop the behavior before they are seriously injured. Say I catch my 2-3 year old about to touch a stove. Should I give him a time out? Do you think that will work?

I'm not willing to gamble skin grafts, so I spank. My kid gets time outs, and lectures, and things taken away, as well. The right tool for the job. So far, she's five and a half, and speaks more intelligently than most adults I've known. Who knows, maybe she'll grow up with a predilection for being spanked. Worse things exist, I'll say that.

[jackdanson]

Spankings don't sound so bad anymore, do they?  After all, if you're not going to discipline them effectively, you might as well get them ready for what they'll be getting later in life.

Yes, because spanking is the only effective discipline.  :rolleyes: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corporal_punishment_in_Europe.svg

That's why all the countries who have banned it have such crazy citizens... I mean think of all the trouble Sweedish and Icelandic children are getting into because their parents aren't allowed to spank them.  Those are countries full of maniacs!  And their crime rates?  OUT OF CONTROL!!! And don't get me started on New Zealand, barbarians, they are!! /sarcasm

I am stating that you can quite effectively discipline without resorting to physical punishment, not OMG everyone who was spanked once is now a crazy man!!

Venting anger isn't appropriate? When I was a child, I learned that it was not a good idea to make my parents angry.

Venting anger by slapping your kids?  Great Idea.  Don't forget you teach through actions, not words.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051114110820.htm

Also I'd like to ask what you do when spanking doesn't work?  My father was spanked as a child.  Around the age of 8 my grandmother started to spank him for some minor thing... he started laughing... she started hitting him with a wood spoon... he laughed harder... alright wait until your dad gets home... dad gets home and spanks him... he laughs... dad gets angry and spanks harder... he laughs harder... dad gets very angry, grabs him by the neck and slams him into the hardwood floor, knocking the wind out of him and making him "see stars"... apparently he still had a grin on his face... followed through with a punch to the eye.  Do you guys see a problem with that?  Furthermore it did nothing to make my father behave, he was a trouble maker into his teens.  He still resents his father for that incident.  So what is your "escalation of force" with spanking?  What do you do when it quits working?

[Fjolnirsson]

The point of it is, you start early, apply consistently, and the child learns you are the authority figure in the household. Over time, the child learns appropriate behavior, and spankings become less and less needed as a form of discipline. As someone else said, you teach them to act civilized until they are civilized. A 2 year old doesn't learn through theory. An 8 year old can. And in the case above, an 8 year old clearly learned to manipulate the people who obviously didn't use appropriate methods. Spanking an 8 year old is unlikely to work very well, particularly if it's a grandmother doing the spanking. By the time the father got home, the plan was to laugh regardless of what happened.

My daughter rarely gets spanked now. She's learned appropriate behavior, and not to touch dangerous items, so she gets time outs and lectures. Sometimes, I have to count backwards from five.

[slugcatcher]

LOLs

I was never spanked and I never had any serious behavior problems.  In fact every study done on the subject shows that spanking effects behavior NEGATIVELY, not positively.  My wife was spanked as a child and I know it had negative effects upon her.  Furthermore my wife is a preschool teacher and claims that she has a lot more problems with kids who's parents' spank, they tend to be more aggressive with other students.  Spanking isn't needed, she doesn't spank her students and can keep 10-12 of them in line at a time.

I've seen similar results due to parents who don't know when to spank or spank to let off some steam (taking their problems out on their kids). Spanking when it's appropriate works and very well at that. How many of the "spanking=bad" studies were actually done by people who didn't have an agenda? In my early school years (k-3) I went to school when spanking was allowed. Kids behaved. The ones that didn't got spanked and then behaved.  Then spanking was banned by all but the principal and then only with written parental permission. Oddly enough the kids that didn't behave also weren't allowed to be spanked per the parent(s). The kids that got spanked before now got sent to the counselor's office. No change in behavior. They were usually sent home right after being sent back to class as the rest of us couldn't learn due to the disruptions.

[Harold Tuttle]

Heck, the active issue I saw in my kids Maryland school, was 3rd graders that were beaten by their older siblings.

These kids brought a real lord of the flies vibe to the classroom

[Jamisjockey]

Oh sweet holy hell, enough.