Author Topic: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go  (Read 8941 times)

Balog

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3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« on: November 07, 2013, 12:48:40 PM »
It's fired 50 rounds and is still working apparently. They printed the barrel too, impressive. http://www.solidconcepts.com/news-releases/worlds-first-3d-printed-metal-gun-manufactured-solid-concepts/
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MillCreek

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2013, 01:04:59 PM »
Ohhh, would it have killed them to attach a picture of the finished product to the news release?  Inquiring minds want to know!  Not to mention we can now start to argue over the advantages and disadvantages of laser sintering vs. investment cast vs. MIM vs. forged!
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41magsnub

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2013, 01:43:41 PM »
Ohhh, would it have killed them to attach a picture of the finished product to the news release?  Inquiring minds want to know!  Not to mention we can now start to argue over the advantages and disadvantages of laser sintering vs. investment cast vs. MIM vs. forged!

TL,DR version - pics or it didn't happen :)

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lee n. field

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2013, 03:13:41 PM »
This is what I am talking about!

http://techcrunch.com/2013/11/07/3d-printed-gun/

http://3dprintboard.com/showthread.php?439-First-True-Working-Metal-Gun-3D-Printed!

Quote
It fires just like a real semi-automatic pistol

Because that's exactly what it is.

Quote
The finished product needed a great deal of finishing including the removal of support material and modifications to the chamber.

Typical 1911.  Gotta hand fit everything.

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The printers cost over $500,000

Awwww.

On the other hand, the CNC machines my one customer buys used are a one to two hundred grand.  So it's not an insane price.  Just too high for the garage "entrepreneur".


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RevDisk

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2013, 05:18:42 PM »

Laser sintering has been around for a while now. Very expensive. Used a lot in the aerospace industry, because you can melt powders that don't normally like to alloy. Less likely to get undesired voids or other internal flaws.
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Nick1911

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2013, 05:23:17 PM »
Honestly, it boggles my mind why this "3D print guns" has captured any real attention.

The traditional material removal methods are cheap and available, and have been for a very long time.  Well within the reach of the individual.

DustinD

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2013, 06:19:38 PM »
Nick: It is largely ignorance, but partially because you can't find instructions or very many examples of home made firearms anywhere. Other than cheap zip guns, receivers, and a few accessories, you can only find a few exotic home made weapons. I can almost not find any how to instructions either. Most people don't even know that making your own firearm is legal.

Now There's A 3D-Printed Gun Made Out Of Metal, And We're Doomed I am linking to it largely because I love that title.

From http://www.guns.com/2013/07/01/3d-printing-community-updates-liberator-with-rifle-pepperbox-and-glock-powered-shuty-9/ A few plastic printed goodies. None of which have ever been tested as far as I know.

some relevant websites:
http://forums.defcad.com
http://www.weaponeer.com
http://www.practicalmachinist.com
http://www.tacticalmachining.com
http://www.cncguns.com
http://www.homegunsmith.com
http://www.diyguns.com
http://www.silencertalk.com
http://ak-builder.com
http://www.northeastshooters.com

The undetectable firearm act will sunset on December 9, 2013, unless renewed. It has not gotten any press in the last few months. The two bills are in committee in the House and Senate.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 06:53:00 PM by DustinD »
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Balog

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2013, 06:27:04 PM »
Honestly, it boggles my mind why this "3D print guns" has captured any real attention.

The traditional material removal methods are cheap and available, and have been for a very long time.  Well within the reach of the individual.

I think a lot of it is: the perception that 3D printers require no extensive machinist training while traditional methods do, and the conflation of $600k monsters like the one that made this gun and the inexpensive home units.
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lee n. field

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2013, 06:59:18 PM »

The undetectable firearm act will sunset on December 9, 2013, unless renewed. It has not gotten any press in the last few months. The two bills are in committee in the House and Senate.

So, you listened to Alan Korwin on Armed American Radio the other week, too?
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DustinD

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2013, 07:17:27 PM »
No, I have been following this issue since September 2012. Edit: Listening to it now though.

Does anyone who knows the current overall political landscape better than I do think this will come up for votes, or go away quietly? Ten years ago it passed out of the blue with the same lack of co-sponsors as it has now. This time however the expanded bill will screw the big magazine manufactures over. I am wondering if that issue will be addressed, or maybe cause the bill to fail.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 07:23:48 PM by DustinD »
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MechAg94

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2013, 09:21:19 PM »
This just doesn't seem special to me.  I want to see pictures of the unfinished parts.  I want to see one with only the critical surfaces and parts finished out.  This looks like a run of the mill production gun. 
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AJ Dual

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2013, 08:21:32 AM »
I think many people intuitively understand that 3D printers have a more computer or electronics-like potential for a Moore's Law-ish progression to commoditized home units.

To the people who who like to say: "Pfft, why is 3D printing such a big deal, CNC's been around for ever?..." I'll say the following:

- CNC machinery requires expensive bits and tool-heads that wear out.
- CNC machinery requires a certain minimum amount of space to move it's tools and the work to access it from various directions.
- CNC machinery requires a certain size and mass that it's difficult to get below, and power of motors to do the work.
- CNC machinery often requires constant sprays of baths of liquid coolant/lubricant which is messy.
- CNC machinery requires solid billet or bar stocks which are expensive, and wasteful. (tons of chips you can't re-use)
- CNC machinery can only work with different materials in the same piece if they're joined or forged together beforehand.

On the other hand:

- 3D printers only have one "tool", the print head, or the laser,
- 3D printers can be much smaller in size/mass/footprint/weight for the same size of work-piece as a CNC machine.
- 3D printers do not need constantly circulating lubricant.
- 3D printers could in theory re-use the powders or waste feedstocks. And such powders and feedstocks are much easier to transport/ship/sell in a consumer/commodity model with large economies of scale (i.e. standardized bags, buckets, boxes, or bottles of powder, or spools of plastics) since the only variable is different amounts of them that people might want, instead of different sized semi-custom forgings or billets.
- 3D printing can in theory shift between materials in the same workpiece.
- 3D printing can make shapes, voids, and interlocking pieces that are impossible for cutting, machining, or a CNC machine to produce.

Yes, CNC machinery can be "shrunk" and made more cheaply, and that's already showing some signs that is going to be part of the "revolution". And I know there are probably always going to be certain kinds of parts that will only work if CNC'd from solid metal stock. However, CNC still comes up against certain physical limitations that make them less suitable for ubiquitous use and distribution. You need billets and raw forgings to start with, you can't pour the shavings or chips back into the CNC machine and get more parts, the machine needs to be a certain minimum size to move it's tool heads and/or the work platform around in multiple axes. It has to be a certain weight, size and strength to handle the pressure and torque of the motors to cut into the work and the friction of the tools.
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Ben

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2013, 09:32:38 AM »
Honestly, it boggles my mind why this "3D print guns" has captured any real attention.

I submit it's not the guns themselves (other than to the hoplophobes). I submit, that to the average person, it's anything made on a 3D printer. How many people even know what a CNC machine is? Let alone any other machines used in the manufacturing of many things. Everyone "knows" what a 3D printer is, because it's just like that thing sitting on their desk where all they have to do is press a button or click a mouse and it prints out what they want.

What's that old saying about, "sufficiently advanced technology will appear as magic..."
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2013, 10:02:04 AM »
This whole article is fail.

Quote
“We’re proving this is possible, the technology is at a place now where we can manufacture a gun with 3D Metal Printing,” says Kent Firestone, Vice President of Additive Manufacturing at Solid Concepts. “And we’re doing this legally. In fact, as far as we know, we’re the only 3D Printing Service Provider with a Federal Firearms License (FFL). Now, if a qualifying customer needs a unique gun part in five days, we can deliver.”

Who gives a fig that you're doing it legally?  Besides the ATF, that is.

The whole point of the 3D desktop revolution and its relationship to guns is to demonstrate the draconian infringements of the 2A while relating it to the 1A by proxy of a device typically thought of as a 1A tool:  A printer.

Flush your FFL paperwork down the toilet, raise a middle digit to the shiny badges, and then print.  I'll be impressed, then.
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Balog

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2013, 10:07:00 AM »
Until you're willing to publicly flaunt the fact that you're committing felonies then I don't think  you have room to talk AZ.  They're a business not an outlaw motorcycle gang / anarchist lobbying group.
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RevDisk

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2013, 10:15:27 AM »

This is actually a very useful service, that I hope makes buckets of money. They'll be able to make specialized parts or receivers that would be uneconomical via other methods. Suppose I want a receiver with more or less metal in certain places for... I dunno, whatever reasons. These guys could crank one out and mail it to my FFL in days. Traditional places, IF they wanted the custom work, would likely take longer and cost more.

It's not revolutionary, but it's great if you want customized gear.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2013, 10:19:48 AM »
Until you're willing to publicly flaunt the fact that you're committing felonies then I don't think  you have room to talk AZ.  They're a business not an outlaw motorcycle gang / anarchist lobbying group.

They're trying to ride on Cody Wilson's coat-tails with the "zomg you can have a 3d printed gun how cool is that?" sentiment, but the actual point of Cody's work is to reduce the power and intimidation of the State.

In most technical ways, a 3d printed gun is going to be inferior to a gun milled from a solid piece or cast into a particular shape from molten material.  The ONLY point to it, is to disembowel the State.  

When they start renting out their 3D printers at $100 an hour with an open library of files for the user to choose from.... or start selling their 3D printers to people that want to rent them out to others hourly... then they're doing freedom a service while still engaging in commerce.  Right now, they're just opportunistic lost souls who don't understand the real importance of Cody's work.
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AJ Dual

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2013, 10:27:50 AM »
I see no problem with them exploring the possibilities with 3D printing and commercial/regulated firearms.

It has no impact on whether or not DIY printer-anarchy Def-Distributed type homebrew solutions are or are not pursued by people.
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Balog

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2013, 11:31:43 AM »
They're trying to ride on Cody Wilson's coat-tails with the "zomg you can have a 3d printed gun how cool is that?" sentiment, but the actual point of Cody's work is to reduce the power and intimidation of the State.

In most technical ways, a 3d printed gun is going to be inferior to a gun milled from a solid piece or cast into a particular shape from molten material.  The ONLY point to it, is to disembowel the State.  

When they start renting out their 3D printers at $100 an hour with an open library of files for the user to choose from.... or start selling their 3D printers to people that want to rent them out to others hourly... then they're doing freedom a service while still engaging in commerce.  Right now, they're just opportunistic lost souls who don't understand the real importance of Cody's work.

Still doing more than you are, so again: put up or shut up. If you aren't willing to goto PMITA fed prison by brazenly flaunting your many felonies, then it's beyond hypocritical to complain about them not being willing to do so.
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Nick1911

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2013, 11:37:33 AM »
Why would it be illegal to print a firearm without an FFL?

Q: Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

Unless you're intending on selling them, print away!

Balog

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2013, 11:56:37 AM »
Because they are intended for resale, would be my guess. And it gets complicated when multiple people are involved. Who "made" the gun? The guy who programmed the printer? The one who put the materials in? The one who hit the print button? The one who knocked off the rough edges and assembled it?
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

HankB

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2013, 01:54:43 PM »
The link in the OP (besides having a link to a story about what gun owners and racists have in common) also asserts that guns like the infamous "Liberator" were made of plastic.

Funny, the "Liberators" that I've seen looked like metal. Cheap metal, but metal nonetheless.



I think it would be very interesting if someone began renting out time on these laser metal sintering machines . . . or perhaps leasing them out for anywhere from a few hours to a few days at a time.  >:D
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AJ Dual

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2013, 01:55:59 PM »
DEFCAD/Defense-Distributed also calls their early version single-shot polymer 3D printed pistols "Liberator".

That might be cause for the confusion.
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erictank

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Re: 3D printed metal 1911 is a go
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2013, 03:11:46 PM »
They're trying to ride on Cody Wilson's coat-tails with the "zomg you can have a 3d printed gun how cool is that?" sentiment, but the actual point of Cody's work is to reduce the power and intimidation of the State.

In most technical ways, a 3d printed gun is going to be inferior to a gun milled from a solid piece or cast into a particular shape from molten material.  The ONLY point to it, is to disembowel the State.  

When they start renting out their 3D printers at $100 an hour with an open library of files for the user to choose from.... or start selling their 3D printers to people that want to rent them out to others hourly... then they're doing freedom a service while still engaging in commerce.  Right now, they're just opportunistic lost souls who don't understand the real importance of Cody's work.

Re: "inferior to milled or cast" - my understanding is that turbine blades made by a similar process are in the testing pipeline for certification by the FAA. Not exactly a low-stress environment there. I'm thinking this has real potential. Granted it will take a number of years for the technology to be cheap enough to put such a printer in the average garage (said garage will undoubtedly have a plastic 3d printer and likely a CNC machine as well, first), but it WILL happen.