Author Topic: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.  (Read 4578 times)

vaskidmark

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These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« on: September 06, 2015, 08:09:29 AM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/05/us/at-west-point-annual-pillow-fight-becomes-weaponized.html?_r=1

West Point plebe pillow fight at the end of summer camp turns bloody.  Seems the "advisory" to wear a helmet did not address the keeping of said helmet on the head and not putting it inside the pillow case.

Quote
“If you don’t come back with a bloody nose,” a male first-year cadet said his upperclassman commander told him, “you didn’t try hard enough.”

West Point pillow fights have existed since at least 1897, according to testimony in a 1901 congressional inquiry on hazing at the school, but there have been no other reports over the decades of injury until recently.

In 2012, a cadet put a lockbox in a pillowcase, injuring others, and in response, the 2013 fight was canceled, cadets said.

Similar violence has occurred at the United States Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs during ceremonial warfare traditions in recent years.

During the first winter storm of the year, Air Force freshmen try to throw their cadet leaders into the snow. But in 2012 the snowball fight turned into a brawl, and 27 cadets were treated for concussions, cuts, broken bones and a bite wound.

The Air Force did not punish any cadets at the time, choosing to treat the episode as what a spokesman called “a teachable moment.”

"Teachable moment"?  How about teaching that honor has meaning?

These events will not effect how our future military leaders deal with the enemy but will form the basis for how they treat their subordinates and troops.

I wonder how long it will take ring knockers to weigh in on this.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

cambeul41

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2015, 09:47:20 AM »
A parallel practice might be fraternity hazing. Some of it is benign, but some . . . ?
I have heard of paddling with cricket bats to the point of broken bones, and I have seen the marks left by hot-branding.
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dogmush

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2015, 09:50:02 AM »
<- NOT a ring knocker.

It has been my experience in the Army that officers don't come out of West Point with much, if any, leadership, and such as it is, their "style" will be forged in the first couple years in the real Army by their Plt Sgts, Company CDR's, and 1SG's.


I consider actual West Point Cadets like feral puppies. If you get one early, and carefully train it, it can turn into a real asset, and be loyal. But some just have to be put down.

HankB

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2015, 11:49:09 AM »
My Dad told me that during WWII, most of the West Pointers he encountered were "teachable" . . . with a few notable exceptions. (Nobody he knew liked or respected MacArthur.)

And one martinet out of West Point insisted on proper respect for officers . . . so the enlisted men took to saluting him at every opportunity. He enjoyed this proper respect for about a week . . . until the CO took  him aside and informed him that by being constantly saluted, he was being identified as a priority target for any Jap sniper that happened to be looking.

He eventually came around . . .
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230RN

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2015, 03:32:43 PM »
I'm reminded of the adage, "If you're going to a fair fight, you're not prepared."

Maybe these kids took that to heart.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Hawkmoon

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2015, 03:44:31 PM »
A parallel practice might be fraternity hazing. Some of it is benign, but some . . . ?
I have heard of paddling with cricket bats to the point of broken bones, and I have seen the marks left by hot-branding.

Yep. Why I didn't join a fraternity in college. I was pledged to the fraternity my father had belonged to when he attended the same college. Once I began to see that hazing was nothing more than ritualized abuse and assault, I unpledged myself and dropped out. I did the same thing with OCS in the Army. Maybe that makes me a quitter, but I just couldn't see how I was gaining anything or learning anything by shining a barracks floor with a toothbrush.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2015, 03:47:58 PM »

It has been my experience in the Army that officers don't come out of West Point with much, if any, leadership, and such as it is, their "style" will be forged in the first couple years in the real Army by their Plt Sgts, Company CDR's, and 1SG's.


I consider actual West Point Cadets like feral puppies. If you get one early, and carefully train it, it can turn into a real asset, and be loyal. But some just have to be put down.
In my one term of enlistment I went through five company commanders. The only really good one was a mustanger -- former enlisted who converted to officer. Don't know if any of the others might have been West Pointers, but I know for sure that two of them weren't. One of those was a decent guy but a lousy officer, the second wasn't even a decent guy.
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Firethorn

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2015, 04:34:43 PM »
I'm reminded of the adage, "If you're going to a fair fight, you're not prepared."

Maybe these kids took that to heart.

On the other hand, you have LOAC - Law Of Armed Conflict. 

Basically, by doing something like putting a lockbox into your pillowcase you're doing the equivalent of loading up glass rounds or something, violating the rules of warfare.

Which should be treated as a serious, serious violation.

Phantom Warrior

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2015, 04:49:17 PM »
I'm reminded of the adage, "If you're going to a fair fight, you're not prepared."

Maybe these kids took that to heart.



On the other hand, you have LOAC - Law Of Armed Conflict. 

Basically, by doing something like putting a lockbox into your pillowcase you're doing the equivalent of loading up glass rounds or something, violating the rules of warfare.

Which should be treated as a serious, serious violation.

I'll take the Law of Common Sense on this one.  Putting a Kevlar in a pillow case and swinging it at someone isn't much different than hitting them with a baseball bat.  Not if you get a full swing into it.  I'm not the least bit surprised by the number of broken bones alleged in the Tweet.  If a cadet had taken a solid shot to the head they could have been KIA before they even graduated.  This wasn't contact with an armed enemy.  This was a pillow fight with their own classmates.  That anybody thought this was a good idea is pretty asinine.


Hawkmoon

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2015, 09:12:58 PM »
That anybody thought this was a good idea is pretty asinine.

IMHO, anyone who thought this was a good idea should be sent home immediately ... and permanently.

For the good of the service.
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BobR

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2015, 11:56:13 PM »
IMHO, anyone who thought this was a good idea should be sent home immediately sent out as an enlisted 11B until their obligation is done... and permanently then separated.

For the good of the service.

FTFY


bob

Andiron

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2015, 07:49:35 AM »
FTFY


bob

Seconded.  Go have fun with the grunts if you want to play retarded games.
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vaskidmark

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2015, 08:55:05 AM »
Why do you guys hate the grunts?

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Andiron

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2015, 12:08:16 PM »
Nothing but love for grunts, but line companies are a whole nother culture.
"Leftism destroys everything good." -  Ron

There is no fixing stupid. But, you can line it up in front of a wall and offer it a last smoke.

There is no such thing as a "transgender" person.  Only mental illness that should be discouraged.

230RN

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2015, 12:12:21 PM »
It was sarcasm.

<sarcasm>Ran afoul of Poe's Law for the 16,197,294,316,039,031,399,877,980,868,725th time.</sarcasm>

Terry, 230RN
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Hawkmoon

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2015, 12:15:35 PM »
Quote from: Hawkmoon
IMHO, anyone who thought this was a good idea should be sent home immediately sent out as an enlisted 11B until their obligation is done... and permanently then separated.

For the good of the service.

FTFY

I accept the gentleman's amendment to my motion.
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Phantom Warrior

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2015, 12:50:06 PM »
It was sarcasm.

<sarcasm>Ran afoul of Poe's Law for the 16,197,294,316,039,031,399,877,980,868,725th time.</sarcasm>

Terry, 230RN

The sarcasm tags make everything so clear!  Thanks!  :)

I've actually never heard of Poe's Law until now.  And honestly, some people are dumb enough to say something like that and mean it.  Appreciate the clarification.

EDIT TO ADD:  Both Weapons Man and SOFREP have weighed in with "Yarrr, good training!  That'll make men out of 'em!  Stupid liberals with their wimpy attitudes about some youthful hijinks!"
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 02:56:28 PM by Phantom Warrior »

zxcvbob

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Re: These are going to be our new leaders? Thanks but no thanks.
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2015, 12:52:42 PM »
<- NOT a ring knocker.

It has been my experience in the Army that officers don't come out of West Point with much, if any, leadership, and such as it is, their "style" will be forged in the first couple years in the real Army by their Plt Sgts, Company CDR's, and 1SG's.


I consider actual West Point Cadets like feral puppies. If you get one early, and carefully train it, it can turn into a real asset, and be loyal. But some just have to be put down.

I'm curious how Texas Aggies do in general.
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