Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: WLJ on June 19, 2023, 10:50:00 AM
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Not much in the way of details yet nor word on how many are on board.
Reportedly these trips can cost upwards of 200,000 pounds ($256,000).
Don't take much for things to go south real quick at 12,500ft
A submersible used to take people to view the wreck of the Titanic has gone missing in the Atlantic Ocean, sparking a search and rescue mission.
The Boston Coastguard told the BBC on Monday that an operation to find it was under way.
It is not clear how many people, if any, were on board at the time it went missing.
Small submersibles occasionally take paying tourists and experts to view the wreck of the Titanic.
Titanic tourist sub goes missing sparking search
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872
TITANIC PANIC Titanic tourist sub goes MISSING sparking frantic search as vessel used for £200k trips to view wreck vanishes
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22741214/titanic-tourist-boat-missing-atlantic/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sunyoutubestories
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I don't know if there is currently a way to recover a minisub from that depth. I tend to doubt it, but hope I am wrong. The company likely advertises the tours as, "You pays you money and takes you chances."
If it's a loss of propulsive and/or control power then it will be a long, tedious death for the passengers and crew. If the sub imploded, it was all over in a small fraction of a second.
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65953872
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/8768/production/_130146643_titsn_submarine_2x640-nc.png.webp)
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The company has not yet commented on the missing sub, which uses Elon Musk's Starlink for its communications so far out at sea.
Among those onboard is billionaire Hamish Harding, CEO of Acton Aviation in Dubai. His step-son confirmed he was on the submarine on Monday morning, a day after he excitedly posted to social media about being there.
Looks pretty tight in there
Titanic tourist submarine used to take people to see wreck of liner 12,500ft below surface of Atlantic Ocean for $250,000 a ticket goes missing with five people onboard
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12210873/Tourist-sub-taking-groups-Titanic-wreckage-goes-missing.html
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The odds of recovery, let alone rescue/survival are infinitesimally small.
If it imploded it would be a near instantaneous death in such a small craft.
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The submarine was built in Everett and my wife and I went to see it a couple of years ago.
https://www.heraldnet.com/news/oceangate-sub-crew-missing-while-exploring-titanic-shipwreck/
https://www.heraldnet.com/business/for-250k-this-everett-company-will-take-you-to-the-titanic/
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how awful.
Prayers for those folks
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Reportedly ~60 hours of air left.
This was posted an hour ago.
The crew launched at around 4am yesterday but lost communication with the mothership a short while afterwards. According to OceanGate's website, the sub can last for up to 96 hours underwater with five people consuming oxygen.
Titanic tourist submarine 'may be stuck in ship's wreckage 12,500ft below Atlantic: Cold War sonar plane and second sub deployed in race against time hunt for vessel that has 60 hours of air left and has been missing for more than 24 hours
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12210873/Tourist-sub-taking-groups-Titanic-wreckage-goes-missing.html
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It lost contact 1 hour and 45 mins into yesterday's dive at 4am - it has now been underwater for well over 24 hours
Trying to find out how long it take to go down. Articles do say the dives can last 10 hours but not sure how much of that is going down then up.
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Everything is speculation at this point. Hard fact, they are out of touch and have been. This will either end badly or they will make a movie out of it.
Even if they wanted to use the USN DSRV out of San Diego it would take a while to get it to North Island, onto a transport, fly to Canada, put on a ship and chug out to where they believe the missing sub is. Even with 60 hours of air left it seems kind of bleak.
bob
Added info, USN DSRV is only good for 5000 foot depth (published).
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Everything is speculation at this point. Hard fact, they are out of touch and have been. This will either end badly or they will make a movie out of it.
Even if they wanted to use the USN DSRV out of San Diego it would take a while to get it to North Island, onto a transport, fly to Canada, put on a ship and chug out to where they believe the missing sub is. Even with 60 hours of air left it seems kind of bleak.
bob
Added info, USN DSRV is only good for 5000 foot depth (published).
DSRV no longer in service, replaced with SRDRS and it's only good to 2,000 ft.
Wouldn't do them any good anyway, no way to link up.
If the sub is in intact something would have to latch on to it and haul it up.
Would inflation bags work?
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I thought that most of these smaller research submersibles were positively buoyant with a metal ballast that could be dropped for an emergency surface. If the sub were intact, and not hooked on the Titanic's wreck, I'd expect it to have bobbed up by now.
If it's hooked on wreckage, or not intact, there's nothing anyone can do in time.
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People turning highly specialized and somewhat dangerous endeavors (space flight, deep submergence) turned into tourist trips are bound to have a few hiccups along the way. A few deaths here and there can't be that unexpected. Hell, airplanes still fall out of the sky and ships sink and we have been sailing and flying a lot longer than these other things.
bob
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I thought that most of these smaller research submersibles were positively buoyant with a metal ballast that could be dropped for an emergency surface. If the sub were intact, and not hooked on the Titanic's wreck, I'd expect it to have bobbed up by now.
If it's hooked on wreckage, or not intact, there's nothing anyone can do in time.
Yep, the sub has an emergency drop weight. So it's either it trapped for some reason, maybe on the the Titanic's wreckage, or something catastrophic happened
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There are plenty of research ROVs and submersibles on the Eastern seaboard that could make the depth without breaking a sweat, but I'm not sure what kind of manipulator arms they would have for attaching cable, and that's only if the sub is sitting unstuck and unentangled (but then as Dogmush alluded, why did they not then drop ballast?). And if they know where it is. It should have a transponder in addition to their Starlink comms. If that's not pinging, that's bad.
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For all the reasons mentioned above I'm not hopeful. Hope I'm wrong.
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Once they reach the surface, there is no way to get out, as those inside are locked in with 17 bolts from the outside.
Can't get out on their own if on the surface. Have to wait for someone to open the hatch from the outside.
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One would think an emergency beacon bouy that could be released to float to the surface and start screaming for help would be part of the submersible’s equipment.
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One would think an emergency beacon bouy that could be released to float to the surface and start screaming for help would be part of the submersible’s equipment.
Both of the boats I served on had "rescue buoys" they were always welded down.
=D
Sea pressure at 4000 M is over 5800 psi
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Both of the boats I served on had "rescue buoys" they were always welded down.
=D
Sea pressure at 4000 M is over 5800 psi
Well you were doing Blind Man’s Bluff *expletive deleted*it though :rofl:
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What did Harding have on the Clintons?
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What did Harding have on the Clintons?
The Titanic did not sink itself
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Well you were doing Blind Man’s Bluff *expletive deleted*it though :rofl:
I have no recollection of those events.
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More info
The sub is suppose to send a ping to the mother ship every 15 minutes. Last ping was heard when the sub was directly over the Titanic around 10:00 EST yesterday (Sunday).
Air is expected to run out sometime around 07:00 EST Thursday
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12212545/Titanic-tourist-sub-five-aboard-just-wreck-communications-went-dead.html
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It's understood that Titan communicates by sending a ping to the Polar Prince every 15 minutes - the last of which was received while the submersible floated above the Titanic wreckage at about 10am EST yesterday (3pm UK time).
It was at that moment that chaos ensued. A distress call was sent to the US Coast Guard at 9pm, whose Boston branch is leading an operation to carry out what would be the deepest undersea rescue mission ever.
Did they wait 11 hours to send the distress call after receiving the last ping? They say these trips take ~10hrs and lost comms after an hour and 45 minutes. I suppose they could have just assume it was a comms issue and didn't start to fear the worse until the sub didn't surface a couple of hours after it was due.
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I'm at a loss as to why anyone would pay $1/4Mil just to say they saw the wreck with their own eyeballs, regardless of one's personal wealth.
Come to think of it, I'm at a loss as to why anyone would pay a buck and a quarter just to say they saw the wreck with their own eyeballs, regardless of one's personal wealth.
There must be a mess of images and movies available for safe viewing even on the net.
If the thing did implode, at that pressure, over 400 Atm (over 6,000 pounds per square inch), they possibly would have been instantly incinerated by the Diesel effect. It only takes about 20 Atm (~300 psi) to ignite Diesel fuel.
I understand from a news report I just saw (0200) on TV, that they've had a lot of mechanical problems with the sub, with a series of aborted expeditions. According to one news person invited on one of the trips, they had to abort after descending only 37 feet.
Terry, 230RN
REF (Whimsically related):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailors%27_superstitions
An appetizer for you whistlers:
"Whistling is usually considered to be bad luck with the possible exception of the sources mentioned below. It is said that to whistle is to challenge the wind itself, and that to do so will bring about a storm."
On the other hand, black cats aboard ships are considered good luck. Go figure.
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Checked the news upon waking. Nothing new other than more info about the 5 on board
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12213257/One-Pakistans-richest-men-son-trapped-Titanic-sub-passengers-family-reveals.html
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Tourists who pay $250,000 to descend almost 13,000 feet below sea level to view the wreck of the Titanic must sign a waiver saying they accept the submersible is not approved by any regulatory body, it has been revealed.
It was last heard from on Sunday morning, one hour and 45 minutes into its mission.
Reaching the wreck usually takes two and a half hours.
So they still had some distance to go.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12212461/This-experimental-vessel-not-approved-regulatory-body-Titaniac-waiver.html
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I'm at a loss as to why anyone would pay $1/4Mil just to say they saw the wreck with their own eyeballs, regardless of one's personal wealth.
Come to think of it, I'm at a loss as to why anyone would pay a buck and a quarter just to say they saw the wreck with their own eyeballs, regardless of one's personal wealth.
There must be a mess of images and movies available for safe viewing even on the net. . . .
Probably for the same reason that some people pay more than $75,000 for premium Super Bowl tickets, when the best view of the game will be on the big 4k flat panel TV in their living room. They just want to say "I've got the money to do that!" Pretty expensive to peer through a little porthole for a little while. (When the channel broadcasting the game turns their camera on the crowd, notice how a lot of people in the stands are "live streaming" the game and watching on their phone or tablet? And the executive boxes have TVs in them!)
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There is absolutely something beyond bragging rights you can get from travel when you're able to actually be someplace and experience a place of interest.
I'm not saying that is how I'd personally spend a quarter of a million, but pretending that pictures and videos are the same thing as going someplace consequential is small minded and sour grapes.
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There is absolutely something beyond bragging rights you can get from travel when you're able to actually be someplace and experience a place of interest.
I'm not saying that is how I'd personally spend a quarter of a million, but pretending that pictures and videos are the same thing as going someplace consequential is small minded and sour grapes.
Along those lines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn9eqcqr64k
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So they still had some distance to go.
Indicates catastrophic failure. With entanglement or power loss, there are too many safety failsafes to not have at least one activate. Comms, transponders, auto-release ballast, auto-release emergency beacon (I'm assuming like an EPIRB). All that stuff should have some kind of backup power.
That comms went dark and nothing activated seems to indicate something big happened. No flotsam seems kind of strange though, if that's what happened. Big ocean though.
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Indicates catastrophic failure. With entanglement or power loss, there are too many safety failsafes to not have at least one activate. Comms, transponders, auto-release ballast, auto-release emergency beacon (I'm assuming like an EPIRB). All that stuff should have some kind of backup power.
That comms went dark and nothing activated seems to indicate something big happened. No flotsam seems kind of strange though, if that's what happened. Big ocean though.
What I was thinking. If the times are anything to go by they were ~2/3 of the way down so even if they lost power they could still have manually dropped ballast and risen to the surface. Last ping was received at the 1 hour 45 minutes mark so something catastrophic probably happened shortly after that.
If they did implode or other wise spring a leak it's going to be a bear finding what's left in the Titanic's debris field.
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Always the remote possibility they are bobbing around on the surface and just haven't been found yet and I think that's what's many are hoping for. Currents could have carried them far away from the mother ship on the way up. Again remote but can't be overlooked. I would think there would be emergency transponders that would have been picked up long before now but this thing seems from reports to have been somewhat Jerry-rigged so who knows.
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Sorry, but "bragging rights" don't cut it for me. Stet on "I'm at a loss..."
Parallel?
Depth-testing of the USS Thresher submarine.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uss-thresher-submarine-disaster-navy-documents-released/
The crew indicated it was attempting to empty ballast tanks in an effort to surface. The crew of an accompanying rescue ship heard something about the "test depth." Then the sailors listened as the sub disintegrated under the crushing pressure of the sea.
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Resting on the ocean floor at a depth of 8,500 feet, the Thresher looks as though it went through a "shredding machine" and is spread out over a mile, University of Rhode Island oceanographer Robert Ballard told The Associated Press in 2013. Ballard used his 1985 discovery of the RMS Titanic as a Cold War cover for surveying the Thresher.
Not everyone was satisfied with the Navy's conclusions.
Terry "That's just me," 230RN
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Can't compare the Navy's reasons for testing a cold war submarine to why people would risk their lives and pay $$$$$ to visit the world's most famous wreck. Apples and oranges. Why do people still line up to climb Mt. Everest despite the fact many still die to this day in the attempt?
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Why do people still line up to climb Mt. Everest despite the fact many still die to this day in the attempt?
Because they don't know about Google Maps.
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The most likely result now is a dead crew that is never found. I suspect that it will come out that the company needed the paid fare to continue operating. The cut corners that attend to that pressure will be huge.
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One day some other Titanic explorers will come across new debris scattered in and around the Titanic debris field. It will be from the imploded tourist sub.
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Since Oceangate is headquartered and the vehicles are manufactured in Snohomish County, I will be interested to see the lawsuits against them filed in the local Snohomish County Superior Court or in the Western District of Washington in Seattle for the Federal suits.
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Since Oceangate is headquartered and the vehicles are manufactured in Snohomish County, I will be interested to see the lawsuits against them filed in the local Snohomish County Superior Court or in the Western District of Washington in Seattle for the Federal suits.
Can a lawsuit get around the waiver they have to sign?
Tourists who pay $250,000 to descend almost 13,000 feet below sea level to view the wreck of the Titanic must sign a waiver saying they accept the submersible is not approved by any regulatory body, it has been revealed.
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Can a lawsuit get around the waiver they have to sign?
Absolutely. Depending on the specifics, many waivers are not enforceable in court, especially in Washington state.
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Absolutely. Depending on the specifics, many waivers are not enforceable in court, especially in Washington state.
The CEO will be crushed.
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Tourists who pay $250,000 to descend almost 13,000 feet below sea level to view the wreck of the Titanic must sign a waiver saying they accept the submersible is not approved by any regulatory body, it has been revealed.
There is probably no regulatory body for deep sea human habitable submarines and submersibles.
Much like there is no regulatory body for human spaceflight capsules. NASA is not a regulatory body, and the FAA simply requires the launch to offer no undue threat to the rest of the public. "Man rated" spacecraft are a myth and NASA's human rating system is not an official stamp of any kind of competency.
This incident has the potential to stymie human spaceflight progress with any legal precedent. I rather hope that heirs and descendants accept the word of their lost loved ones, and the honor of their commitments. I rather doubt they'll be rejecting the legitimacy of the activated Wills and Trusts due to this event... these people wanted to further human exploration of new frontiers and risked their lives for it. Maybe they were rich bastards, but then again so was Shackleton. Stuff doesn't get discovered by poor commonfolk. And I sure would like a new age of discovery.
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This incident has the potential to stymie human spaceflight progress with any legal precedent. I rather hope that heirs and descendants accept the word of their lost loved ones, and the honor of their commitments. I rather doubt they'll be rejecting the legitimacy of the activated Wills and Trusts due to this event... these people wanted to further human exploration of new frontiers and risked their lives for it. Maybe they were rich bastards, but then again so was Shackleton. Stuff doesn't get discovered by poor commonfolk. And I sure would like a new age of discovery.
Qft.
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Well, nobody can say that the CEO won't pay a price.
OceanGate CEO Stockton Rush among 5 onboard missing Titan submarine, company says
An OceanGate spokesperson tells Fox News' Tamara Gitt that the company's CEO, Stockton Rush, is among the five people who are now missing after its Titan submarine vanished during a dive Sunday to the wreck site of the Titanic.
“OceanGate can confirm that CEO Stockton Rush is aboard the submersible as a member of the crew," the spokesperson said.
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Well, nobody can say that the CEO won't pay a price.
The CEO will be crushed.
Prescient.
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Coast Guard saying even if they found the sub there's really nothing they can do.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12215585/Coast-Guard-admits-not-able-rescue-five-people-board-missing-Titanic-tourist-sub.html
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Coast Guard saying even if they found the sub there's really nothing they can do.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12215585/Coast-Guard-admits-not-able-rescue-five-people-board-missing-Titanic-tourist-sub.html
So, they finally caught up and said the quiet part out loud?
bob
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So, they finally caught up and said the quiet part out loud?
bob
One way to put it.
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I fail to see what observational contribution the occupants of the sub could make unless they spot a previously unnoticed shell hole. (sarcasm)
There is absolutely something beyond bragging rights you can get from travel when you're able to actually be someplace and experience a place of interest.
I'm not saying that is how I'd personally spend a quarter of a million, but pretending that pictures and videos are the same thing as going someplace consequential is small minded and sour grapes.
I think I'm insulted. (And don't give me that high school sopohomoric line about you're not insulting me, you're describing me.) One thing I was actually excited about seeing in person was Meteor Crater. No photo can capture that. I imagine Grand Canyon might be like that.
Anyhow, unless they bobbed to the surface somewhere, it looks like they're permanently lost by now with the Coast Guard admitting they cannot do anything.
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One thing I was actually excited about seeing in person was Meteor Crater. No photo can capture that. I imagine Grand Canyon might be like that.
The Taj Mahal is something no photo can do justice to.
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I fail to see what observational contribution the occupants of the sub could make unless they spot a previously unnoticed shell hole. (sarcasm)
I think I'm insulted. (And don't give me that high school sopohomoric line about you're not insulting me, you're describing me.) One thing I was actually excited about seeing in person was Meteor Crater. No photo can capture that. I imagine Grand Canyon might be like that.
Anyhow, unless they bobbed to the surface somewhere, it looks like they're permanently lost by now with the Coast Guard admitting they cannot do anything.
I was made aware of Meteor Crater recently (again maybe). A good reason to go back to Arizona at some point.
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Experts in submersible vehicles wrote a letter warning the CEO of OceanGate that their approach could end in 'disaster' years before their vessel vanished.
The letter, obtained by the New York Times, warned that 'the current 'experimental' approach' of the company could result in problems 'from minor to catastrophic.'
It was sent by the Manned Underwater Vehicles committee of the Marine Technology Society, a 60-year-old trade group that aims to promote ocean technology and educate the public about it.
But it is unclear if any employee or Rush himself responded to the letter, and there was no further detail on why the approach was considered dangerous.
It comes after DailyMail.com revealed that OceanGate refused to put their submersible through an independent inspection process and fired a director in 2018 after he asked for more rigorous safety tests.
Bosses fired David Lochridge, who was Director of Marine operations for the Titan project, after disagreeing with his demand for more rigorous safety checks on the submersible, including 'testing to prove its integrity'.
The company also opted against having the craft 'classed', an industry-wide practice whereby independent inspectors ensure vessels meet accepted technical standards.
'He was warned': Submersible experts wrote to OceanGate's missing CEO Stockton Rush in 2018 warning company's 'experimental' approach could lead to 'catastrophic' disaster
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12215855/Submersible-experts-wrote-OceanGates-missing-CEO-Stockton-Rush-2018.html
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More along those line on the same site.
Don't know how much of this and the above are internet exaggerations
The site said it suffered further problems in 2020 and had to be completely rebuilt after tests showed signs of 'cyclic fatigue' that reduced the hull's depth rating to 3,000 meters, which was well short of what it required to get close to the Titanic.
The vessel, built of carbon fibre and titanium was originally designed to take five people to depths of 4,000 metres (13,123 feet).
Titan sub is like a 'kit car built from Amazon parts': Observers say 'flimsy' vessel uses camping shop lights, 'off the shelf' cameras, salvaged metal pipes for ballast and a Playstation controller - with a comms team in a ship previously traded on eBay
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12214617/Titanic-sub-like-kit-car-built-Amazon-parts.html
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-submergence_vehicle
Link above is a neat list of various DSV's and their rated dive depths. There are a few vehicles around the planet that could reach the Titan, though none could dock with it. Unknown if any have remote manipulators or other tools that could free it from entanglement if that is the issue.
I don't think any of them are small enough to be air transportable to be on site within the required time frame though.
My money is on some sort of catastrophic failure that ended the dive explosively and tragically.
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AZRedhawk44 remarked,
"My money is on some sort of catastrophic failure that ended the dive explosively and tragically."
I was thinking about that yesterday and, compared to the outside pressure, the pressure inside both that vessel and the USS Thresher was essentially, an absolute vacuum.
I remembered what happened when a large TV picture tube broke, and why they were so dangerous to handle. It doesn't just collapse, it usually throws fragments all over the place at high velocity. And that's with just a 14.7 psi pressure difference in the case of the picture tube. Maybe that's why the Thresher's parts were scattered so widely.
Terry, 230RN
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If they were caught in the Titanic wreckage most likely they would have communicated somehow by now. Sonar ping, release of an emergency beacon, something.
Contact was lost 1.75 hours into the dive. From what I read that would indicate likely around halfway, give or take, to the depth of the Titanic. Far too shallow to be stuck in wreckage. If that timeframe is when something anomalous happened it would indicate likely catastrophic structural failure as the most likely scenario.
Or they *expletive deleted*ed around with Cthulhu and found out.
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I had assumes many subs like that used a tether of some kind. I guess not.
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Viewing panoramic vistas of mountains, an enormous meteor crater, the Taj Mahal, African wildlife in its natural habitat, the skyline of a major city . . . there are a LOT of things worth seeing in person rather than viewing pictures, and not all of them require a major risk to life and limb.
Paying a quarter million dollars to peek through a little porthole in murky water while risking your life in a Rube Goldberg submersible contraption isn't one of them.
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If they were caught in the Titanic wreckage most likely they would have communicated somehow by now. Sonar ping, release of an emergency beacon, something.
Contact was lost 1.75 hours into the dive. From what I read that would indicate likely around halfway, give or take, to the depth of the Titanic. Far too shallow to be stuck in wreckage. If that timeframe is when something anomalous happened it would indicate likely catastrophic structural failure as the most likely scenario.
Or they *expletive deleted*ed around with Cthulhu and found out.
Yeah, every time I heard 40 some hours of air left today I thought no it has zero air left since about two hours after diving.
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Contact was lost 1.75 hours into the dive. From what I read that would indicate likely around halfway, give or take, to the depth of the Titanic.
If my math is right (questionable), pressure at 6000 ft would be would be about 181 bar (2650 psi). That's a lotta squeeze.
Brad
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So we put death by CCC (Climate Change COVID) on the report then
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If my math is right (questionable), pressure at 6000 ft would be would be about 181 bar (2650 psi). That's a lotta squeeze.
Brad
https://bluerobotics.com/learn/pressure-depth-calculator/
At 13123ft/4000m sea pressure would be 5823 psi. An implosion would have result in essentially instantaneous death for the passengers and the vessel being torn to shreds and scattered over more than a square mile of sea floor.
When the USS Thresher died my educated guess (I served on that class of submarine) is that the implosion would have taken place at a depth of less than 4000 ft. The forces from that event scattered the wreckage over more than a mile of sea floor.
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Too soon? One of the reasons that Oceangate built their vehicles in Everett was to take advantage of the local knowledge in creating larger carbon fiber/composite vehicles. The local Boeing plant pioneered construction of the 787 with the carbon fiber/composite fuselage. Oceangate hired several former Boeing workers to build the autoclave and construct the composite body sections of the submersible. They also consulted with NASA on construction as well.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/355123558_10159374294367093_5495392358323858375_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=mgsf7zKLk3IAX-_ntft&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=00_AfAEcWN4cwv595O-PAEd66G7uIUuM4Lx0lOifIAZOvQElg&oe=649759B0)
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Viewing panoramic vistas of mountains, an enormous meteor crater, the Taj Mahal, African wildlife in its natural habitat, the skyline of a major city . . . there are a LOT of things worth seeing in person rather than viewing pictures, and not all of them require a major risk to life and limb.
Paying a quarter million dollars to peek through a little porthole in murky water while risking your life in a Rube Goldberg submersible contraption isn't one of them.
Agreed.
It is beginning to appear that there was more than a bit of corporate (or maybe individual) hubris involved.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12215003/OceanGate-REFUSED-independent-inspection-missing-sub-fired-worker-raised-safety-concerns.html
OceanGate hired a British expert to help manage their safety program, then fired him when he wanted to make the thing safe.
In a blog post titled 'Why Isn't Titan Classed?', OceanGate suggested classification would take too long.
The post said: 'While classing agencies are willing to pursue the certification of new and innovative designs and ideas, they often have a multi-year approval cycle due to a lack of pre-existing standards…
'Bringing an outside entity up to speed on every innovation before it is put into real-world testing is anathema to rapid innovation.'
The company said its 'innovations' included a real-time (RTM) hull health monitoring system which is 'not currently covered by any classing agency'.
OceanGate suggested its own in-house safety protocols were sufficient. The blog concluded that 'by itself, classing is not sufficient to ensure safety'.
Sadly, it seems they were ... what's the word? Ah, yes: WRONG!
I don't really mean to make light of it. Five people being squashed under two miles of ocean isn't something to laugh about. It's fine if someone like Stockton Rush wants to build a submersible in his garage and try to dive two miles deep. If he ends up killing himself (as it appears he has done), that's his misfortune, but he knew the risks. Unfortunately, despite all the weasel words in the disclaimer the company makes the tourists sign, I'm sure that at some level the customers were of the opinion that the company wouldn't be sending the thing down if it wasn't safe.
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Too soon? One of the reasons that Oceangate built their vehicles in Everett was to take advantage of the local knowledge in creating larger carbon fiber/composite vehicles. The local Boeing plant pioneered construction of the 787 with the carbon fiber/composite fuselage. Oceangate hired several former Boeing workers to build the autoclave and construct the composite body sections of the submersible. They also consulted with NASA on construction as well.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/355123558_10159374294367093_5495392358323858375_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&cb=99be929b-3346023f&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=mgsf7zKLk3IAX-_ntft&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=00_AfAEcWN4cwv595O-PAEd66G7uIUuM4Lx0lOifIAZOvQElg&oe=649759B0)
Beech was filament winding carbon fiber for the Premier 1 biz jet fuselage in the 90’s.
Regardless, an inherent risk of composites is you don’t know how strong they really are until they break. And any even seemingly minor damage dramatically reduces the ultimate strength, and such damage can be difficult to detect. Plus moisture degrades mechanical properties over time.
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^^^Based on what I have read in the Seattle media about the Boeing 787, composites can be difficult, and even Boeing can have problems with it.
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We had carbon fiber WRAPPED air bottles in the fire service. They were service life limited despite having an inner aluminum core.
The insanity of building a completely carbon fiber submersible especially a deep diving submersible is insane.
And then they cheated out on it with possibly the most damning evidence of being too cheap to buy the properly engineered view port. Insanity and stupidity collide.
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We had carbon fiber WRAPPED air bottles in the fire service. They were service life limited despite having an inner aluminum core.
The insanity of building a completely carbon fiber submersible especially a deep diving submersible is insane.
And then they cheated out on it with possibly the most damning evidence of being too cheap to buy the properly engineered view port. Insanity and stupidity collide.
My understanding is it was carbon wrapped titanium.
Otherwise, spot on.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q9JXAF2uFU
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Or maybe the video game controller they were using to drive the sub crapped out.
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But wait, there's more.
This company is looking more and more shady
A Florida couple sued the CEO of Titanic tourism company OceanGate Expeditions, accusing him of misleading them about their trip to visit the wreck and refusing to refund their $210,258 when they complained.
Marc and Sharon Hagle, who made their fortune in commercial real estate, are well known for their philanthropy and their adventurous spirit. In March 2022, they were on the fourth Blue Origin passenger space flight and became the first married couple to become space tourists.
In 2016, while on a trip to the South Pole, they decided their next adventure would be underwater. In 2017 they were announced as among the first customers for OceanGate, which was founded in 2009 by Seattle-born aviator and businessman Stockton Rush, now 61.
But they never got to take their trip, and in February this year sued Rush, accusing him of selling the adventure knowing it was not on schedule, and refusing to refund their cash.
REVEALED: Missing OceanGate CEO was sued for FRAUD by Florida couple who accused him of taking $210,000 to see Titanic wreck when he knew the vessel was not ready
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12216669/Missing-OceanGate-CEO-Stockton-Rush-sued-FRAUD-Florida-couple-paid-Titanic.html
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One thing I was actually excited about seeing in person was Meteor Crater. No photo can capture that. I imagine Grand Canyon might be like that.
It is !
Also, it may be much smaller. but looking down those nearly vertical walls at Royal Gorge (where bungee jumping got its start) and looking straight down to the river 1,200 feet below is pretty impressive to a 12 y.o. =D
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Update, maybe signs of life
Note:unconfirmed at this point. I'm dubious of the source (Rolling Stone)
A Canadian Aircraft, part of the enormous search mission looking for the missing Titanic tourists, heard 'banging' at 30-minute intervals in the area the submarine disappeared.
The banging was noted in emails exchanged with the US Department of Homeland Security and seen by Rolling Stone.
Richard Garriot de Cayeux, President of The Explorers Club, confirmed in a Tuesday night social media post that 'there is cause for hope.'
In a statement he said: 'We have much greater confidence that 1) There is cause for hope, based on data from the field - we understand that likely signs of life have been detected at the site.'
'Likely signs of life have been detected': Rescue plane hunting missing Titanic submarine with five on board 'hears banging' coming every 30 minutes from near wreck site - raising hopes men are ALIVE as search enters make-or-break day
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html
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If my math is right (questionable), pressure at 6000 ft would be would be about 181 bar (2650 psi). That's a lotta squeeze.
Brad
I previously mentioned that the pressure at Titanic's depth was about 800 atmospheres.
I recollect a photo of a string strung from wall to wall inside a sub getting slack as the hull got squooshed by the water pressure.
I know there are some submariners on this board, but tell ya true, I'd get pretty spooked about riding in any sub.
I was going to add in my Meteor Crater remarks that I didn't have to view it locked in my car looking out my windshield with only 100 or so cubic feet of air.
And someone's remarks about watching a game on handhelds while sitting in $75K seats kind of made my point. I'm just not into bragging rights although I can certainly appreciate the after-game partying with friends. If I could say I walked along the Great Wall of China, what about me would be enhanced? Or would I still just be the ordinary pain in the ass shnook I am?
(https://media-cldnry.s-nbcnews.com/image/upload/t_nbcnews-fp-1200-630,f_auto,q_auto:best/streams/2012/October/121004/4141356-pb-121004-wall-da.jpg)
I'm the tall guy at the top of the picture. I got there a little late.
Terry, 230RN
Pic credit in properties
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Wait a minute, WTH does Rolling Stone have access to US Department of Homeland Security e-mails?
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CNN now reporting on the banging sounds.
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I recollect a photo of a string strung from wall to wall inside a sub getting slack as the hull got squooshed by the water pressure.
I know there are some submariners on this board, but tell ya true, I'd get pretty spooked about riding in any sub.
Even though there are many more airplanes in the sea vs submarines in the air I was much happier searching for the subs from the air. I was offered a 7 day excursion on a sub out of Point Loma, kind of a personnel exchange. Submariners came with us and some of us went with them, I politely declined.
bob
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I recollect a photo of a string strung from wall to wall inside a sub getting slack as the hull got squooshed by the water pressure.
A experiment/demonstration I have witnessed with my own eyes.
Did it in the torpedo room as it was the most open space forward of the engineering spaces (nuke land).
Used about a 25' length of paracord tied off to brackets mounted on hull frames.
Went from taught at periscope depth to about an 8" sag at test depth.
The fun part is performing an "emergency blow" from test depth.
THAT is a *expletive deleted*ing ride!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOqalX5FJ2c
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The pressure required to blow the submersion tanks (sorry if incorrect nomenclature) in a regular submarine has to be greater than the water pressure at that depth, right?
Otherwise, the air won't force out the water to increase the sub's buouyancy, right?
So the pressure reservoir must carry enough air at high enough pressure to empty the submersion (ballast?) tanks.
At 380 atmospheres for the Titanic sub, that's a hell of a lot of air at a hell of a high pressure.
Does anyone know if it could surface by blowing ballast tanks (unlikely), or was it strictly maneuverable up-and-down by diving planes? If so, a stoppage of the motive power would disable diving planes and would leave it stuck wherever it was when the motive power quit.... right?
Terry, 230RN
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The fun part is performing an "emergency blow" from test depth.
THAT is a *expletive deleted*ing ride!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOqalX5FJ2c
Heh, heh ... they used that clip toward the end of the submarine comedy film Down Periscope.
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The pressure required to blow the submersion tanks (sorry if incorrect nomenclature) has to be greater than the water pressure at that depth, right?
Otherwise, the air won't force out the water to increase the sub's buouyancy, right?
So the pressure reservoir must carry enough air at high enough pressure to empty the submersion (ballast?) tanks.
At 800 atmospheres for the Titanic sub, that's a hell of a lot of air at a hell of a high pressure.
Does anyone know if it could surface by blowing ballast tanks, or was it strictly maneuverable up-and-down by diving planes? If so, a stoppage of the motive power would disable diving planes and would leave it stuck wherever it was when the motive power quit.... right?
(Gruesome thought: I wonder if they killed the CEO to conserve air.)
Terry, 230RN
If you're referring to the lost submersible, it's maximum sped is (was) 2 knots. From the photos, it appeared to me that propulsion and lift were provided by small thruster propellers mounted to the outside of the hull.
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My understanding is it was carbon wrapped titanium.
Otherwise, spot on.
I thought the nose dome was titanium and the main hull cylinder was all carbon-fiber.
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If you're referring to the lost submersible, it's maximum sped is (was) 2 knots. From the photos, it appeared to me that propulsion and lift were provided by small thruster propellers mounted to the outside of the hull.
Yes, the "Titanic sub," and thank you for the outside propeller information. So if either the main battery or the "joystick" quit, that was it.
Sounds like another case of too much theory and not enough engineering.
Terry, 230RN
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Haven't seen any updates on the banging story.
Is the story actually confirmed? Rolling Stones is the source?
If true how long have they heard the sounds.
Are they occurring every 30 minutes on the money, which would generally rule out something natural, or not
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The Titanic sub has ballast weights, so it doesn't have to blow tanks in an emergency.
As for the "hammering", I think they heard something else. If the occupants were alive to hammer, they would be alive to use comms or deploy the emergency beacon. Of course this is predicated on a submersible that was built with an ounce of thought. It's beginning to sound like this contraption is the equivalent of the guy with the lawn chair and the helium balloons.
Also on the hammering:
https://youtu.be/Hvjt0VAk_48?t=2516
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Even though there are many more airplanes in the sea vs submarines in the air I was much happier searching for the subs from the air. I was offered a 7 day excursion on a sub out of Point Loma, kind of a personnel exchange. Submariners came with us and some of us went with them, I politely declined.
bob
When I was in Hawaii (Business conference on the Big Island) I took a brief excursion on a tourist sub - think of a bus with a long row of portholes along the sides and a big dome at the end. IIRC the sub dove to around 100 - 125 feet and we saw some fish. That was my sole sub experience. I think this was it: https://www.hawaiitours.com/to-do/submarine-dive/
Someone asked the tour guide how deep the sub could safely dive, and she said 1200 feet. I'm very skeptical about that, but since we weren't putting it to the test that day, I didn't argue.
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IF the banging sound story is true.
If they lost power that would explain the lack of comms/pings among other things.
BUT, if they lost power why didn't they then abort and drop the emergency ascend weights which isn't suppose to require power to do. This is assuming it was actually installed and/or worked, and/or someone on board actually knew how to work the darn thing. From what I'm reading on how this thing was Jerry-Rigged together I'm having doubts on all three.
Edit: Of course this all assuming they didn't implode on the way down as an explanation
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If they lost power that would explain the lack of comms.
If built with an ounce of brainpower, there would be backup power for comms/transponder. In fact the transponder(s) would have an independent power source.
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If built with an ounce of brainpower, there would be backup power for comms/transponder. In fact the transponder(s) would have an independent power source.
You would think.
Okay, first confirmation I seen about them hearing something I halfway trust. Still doesn't prove it's from the lost sub.
Coast Guard has shared information about banging noises with Navy, commander says
https://www.cnn.com/americas/live-news/titanic-missing-sub-oceangate-06-21-23
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It's republican billionaire Elon Musk fault and an an investigation should be launched.
Yeah.....
"@OccupyDemocrats
BREAKING: Republican billionaire Elon Musk is thrust into another nightmare PR disaster as it's revealed that the missing Titanic submersible company previously praised his satellite communication company Starlink — and said that it would be "relying on" the service to "provide the communications" for the Titanic Expedition. The world lost all communication with the submersible and its crew shortly after it began its journey towards the sunken wreck. A massive search-and-rescue effort is currently underway but prospects look grimmer by the hour. The crew has limited oxygen and cannot exit the craft without outside help. It must be stated that at this point there is no direct indication that Starlink failed or was the cause of this terrifying and possibly tragic incident. That said, given Musk's long history of screwups and reckless dishonesty, an investigation should be launched. RT and if you demand an investigation — and consider investing in Tribel, a “woke” new Twitter competitor that is currently doing a round of equity crowdfunding and just blew past $1.4 million raised from 3,600 of its users. If you want to own a small piece of what is quickly becoming the “next big thing” in social media, here is the link to do so, http://wefunder.com/Tribel. You can invest as little as $100 — or as much as you’d like. Here’s the link to download the new Tribel app that Elon Musk is so afraid of: http://tribel.app.link/okwPIHYCIqb"
Excuse me while go found something stronger to put in my morning coffee
@OccupyDemocrats get rightfully dragged for ghoulish attempt to tie Elon Musk to missing Titanic sub
https://twitchy.com/amy/2023/06/20/occupydemocrats-gets-community-noted-for-ridiculous-attempt-to-tie-elon-musk-to-missing-submersible-n2384685
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BUT, if they lost power why didn't they then abort and drop the emergency ascend weights which isn't suppose to require power to do.
I would presume the e-ascend weights would be magnetically tethered. That way, they release automatically if power fails. If not all weights, then at least enough to achieve some amount of non-overridable positive buoyancy.
Brad
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I would presume the e-ascend weights would be magnetically tethered. That way, they release automatically if power fails. If not all weights, then at least enough to achieve some amount of non-overridable positive buoyancy.
Brad
I've seen mention of magnetic releases, hydraulic cable cutters, and simple latch release handles. Not sure which system the Titan has/had
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Even if they are alive the chance is still slim of getting them…if they even find them in time
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From BBC news
As usual take with a internet size grain of salt
Submarine search and rescue expert Frank Owen told BBC News on Wednesday morning that “banging sounds” that have been detected by floating sonobuoys in the search could suggest the Titan could be at the surface.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6492dff71babaa614a472d30%26What%20happens%20if%20sub%20reaches%20the%20surface%3F%262023-06-21T13%3A12%3A06.031Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:4aacfe40-5f8e-41d7-b44e-9f0f40158902&pinned_post_asset_id=6492dff71babaa614a472d30&pinned_post_type=share
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Does anyone know if it could surface by blowing ballast tanks (unlikely), or was it strictly maneuverable up-and-down by diving planes? If so, a stoppage of the motive power would disable diving planes and would leave it stuck wherever it was when the motive power quit.... right?
Terry, 230RN
Generally speaking submersibles (as apposed to submarines) do not use ballast tanks with variable seawater volumes to adjust buoyancy. That system is used on submarines, because they are self sufficient, and have a lot more variables that effect buoyancy, and so need a more adjustable system. Submarines also don't travel at the depths where they would need 10k psi of air to blow the tanks.
Submersibles, on the other hand, are short duration vehicles that require surface support, and can dial their weight in for the load and water conditions each dive, and need less adjustability. In general (specific details on the Titan are hard to find) submersibles will be ballasted so as to be neutral, or very slightly buoyant at the target depth of the dive. This will put them at slightly more buoyant during the decent/ascent (because they are slightly bigger at the surface and displace more water). They will use their vertical thrusters to overcome this and descend and to hold them at depth. This is done so that if they DO lose all power, they will slowly surface on their own. Additionally, the metal ballast that is used to set buoyancy can be dropped from inside the craft, resulting in significant positive buoyancy on the craft and a one way trip to the surface.
So if she's not bobbing around on the surface somewhere, odds are very high that she's either hooked on something, or there was a catastrophic structural failure that compromised the hull, and she filled with water. Assuming even a modicum of sense from her designers.
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Assuming even a modicum of sense from her designers.
Continuing to assume that, I'm just seeing an incredibly low probability of them being snagged. There should still be some kind of comms available, and assuming "one is none" redundancy, they should have still been getting acoustics from a transponder. The fact that the transponder signal just stopped is part of my "catastrophic failure" supposition.
While not an expert, I did seven missions with the Navy's Phantom DHD2+2 ROV with NFESC/NBVC as the nav guy, which made me responsible for the acoustic transponders. At least on ROV's, they are freakin' rugged, and also independently powered. You plug them in to charge just like charging a phone. One on the ROV, another on the depressor, so if one went out, you could still get a signal from the other one and kinda know where the ROV was. I always set mine for three second pings for mapping, which is another weird thing with this sub: Fifteen minute pings seems stupid. There's absolutely no reason to set the pings that long. Fifteen seconds would be long. You're using practically no data, and it's not like you have to listen to pings like they do in the movies - you can just watch the dot blink on the computer screen on the ship.
So to me (again, assuming redundancy), no acoustic transponder means something bad happened really fast.
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According to this protocol is to bang for 3 minutes every 30.
The ocean is full of sounds, but reports suggest that the “banging” picked up by the rescue team is regular and so may be produced by a human source.
On board the missing craft is a retired French diver, who would know the protocol to alert search teams is to bang for three minutes every half an hour.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=64930267f2e5745fd8a78156%26Hopes%20of%20a%20rescue%20rise%20slightly%20-%20but%20numerous%20challenges%20remain%262023-06-21T14%3A06%3A56.382Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:4e1373f3-8527-4d41-995b-8c1fe9c28504&pinned_post_asset_id=64930267f2e5745fd8a78156&pinned_post_type=share
Also at that link
It must be stressed that in previous undersea rescue attempts – such banging signals have been checked and found to be fake, notably in 2017 when the Argentinian submarine, ARA San Juan.
Now who the heck would fake something like that? People are......
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https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2023/06/submarine-missing-near-titanic-used-a-30-logitech-gamepad-for-steering/
I am real curious what went into the design of this craft. Are there mechanical backups to these controls? Also seems pretty cramped for 5 people.
(https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/sub_gamecontroller_hero_1-800x450.jpg)
(https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/FzEiw2KaQAAmX2m-640x938.jpg)
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I have a piece of equipment that is missing it's remote control. In figuring out what I was going to do about it, I learned that playstation controllers have an SPI interface and are fairly easy to interface to.
Which is great for some dude messing around in his garages. I did not expect to find it on a deep water submersible, however.
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I am real curious what went into the design of this craft. Are there mechanical backups to these controls? Also seems pretty cramped for 5 people.
Fair questions. I'm also curious about how many deep dives this submersible made before going missing.
ETA:
The CEO of OceanGate, which is operating the missing Titanic tourist submarine, explains that the company didn’t want to hire any experienced “50 year old white guys” because they weren’t “inspirational.” :facepalm:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1671372833979785217
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https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2023/06/submarine-missing-near-titanic-used-a-30-logitech-gamepad-for-steering/
I am real curious what went into the design of this craft. Are there mechanical backups to these controls? Also seems pretty cramped for 5 people.
I think mechanical backups for fly-by-wire systems are pretty rare these days. You wouldn't want extra holes in the pressure hull for added mechanical lines either, if you could help it.
Much hay has been made on the internet about using the COTS Logitech controller to control the thrusters, and of all the things to pick on this sub and company about, that's one I don't get.
The thrusters are controlled by a computer (pretty much all submersable thrusters are). You need an input device to tell the computer which direction you want to go so it knows which thrusters to engage. Why is the Logitech pad worse than whatever DOD funded Bespoke joystick DSRVs have, or the touchscreen the Crew Dragon uses? Logitech has been making reliable input devices for decades. If they'd torn the keyboard off of a ToughBook, and the guy was just hitting W-A-S-D would anyone be scoffing at the controls?
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You guys are fixating a lot on manual backups. Manual backups to the wireless joystick controller, manual backups to the ballast release, manual backups to beacon releases...
The sub capsule is completely sealed. 100%, no holes anywhere. It's an integrally wound carbon fiber hull... I assume a layer of titanium tube gives the CF its starting dimensions and it is wound to 5 inches thickness for strength. Two titanium endcap flanges are mated to the CF tube with a high pressure epoxy. The only holes on either flange are for the fore and aft caps, for bolts to seal the cap to the tube.
All control to the motors and other electronics mounted on the hull are through wireless signals transmitted through the hull. It seems they have separate power sources for interior systems and exterior systems. It's an inventive solution to a common problem they have in space, how to pass control cables through a pressure hull to equipment outside. In space you're only fighting 1 bar of pressure though. Here it's 400 bar. Space solutions are insufficient to the challenge.
I actually think that having ballast in the form of metal poles on racks is rather brilliant. It's a mechanical failsafe that doesn't rely upon a hole in the hull for control. Just spin the hull by adjusting internal weight: have the passengers hug a wall until the sub rotates and drops the pipes. Just make sure nothing critical is likely to be impacted or tangled by the falling metal weights in the new orientation.
I bet they have fully redundant control systems. Two joysticks. Each is paired to a different bluetooth interface, on a separate computer outside. Each of those computers are capable of controlling the external propulsion and dive surfaces. Each is given dedicated primary power, with some sort of relay or diode reversible cross-draw to the other system's power supply.
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I use that same Logitech F710 wireless game pad on my gaming PC. It uses two AA alkaline batteries and goes through them pretty quickly. The joystick controls get wonky as the battery voltage drops. It would be a hell of a note if it's simply a case of the batteries being depleted and they didn't carry spares.
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I use that same Logitech F710 wireless game pad on my gaming PC. It uses two AA alkaline batteries and goes through them pretty quickly. The joystick controls get wonky as the battery voltage drops. It would be a hell of a note if it's simply a case of the batteries being depleted and they didn't carry spares.
From what I've read wouldn't surprise me one bit.
Anyone else here old enough to remember a short live show back in the 70s with Andy Griffith where he built a spaceship from junkyard parts?
Salvage 1, couldn't remember the name, had to look it up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvage_1
The Vulture
Harry builds a spaceship dubbed Vulture, made completely from reclaimed salvage and powered by a chemical called monohydrazine. The main body of Vulture is composed of a Texaco gasoline semi-trailer tank truck with a cement mixer as the capsule. This is augmented with three shorter rocket boosters placed 120 degrees around the main tank.
This sub reminds me of that
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Great analysis, dogmush, especially pointing out the variable bouyancy due to changing volume of the entire craft under various pressures.
On the joystick, I wondered if the tiny resistors or potentiometers (1/4 Watt, 1/2 Watt ?) would handle any substantial load for very long. Even if used to control a fly-by-wire computer control. I could just see him hooking them up to the control motors directly... "Hey, this works great!"
(Too much theory, not enough engineering.)
I don't know how many in the world would know this tiny bit of Morse code, but if it were me, I would tap out:
taptaptap...tap...tap...tap...taptaptap repeatedly.
Yeah, I know, it's supposed to be SOS, not S O S, but if you don't have a key under your fist, that tap sequence will work.
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Still got to find it let alone find out what kind of condition it's in
We heard this afternoon about the arrival of a French underwater Robotically Operated Vehicle (ROV), the Victor 6000.
Its role will be to search for the Titan and to remove any obstacles that are stopping it from floating to the surface.
It will take two hours to prepare the ROV once it arrives and the operation is likely to take several more hours – and time is not on the side of a rescue operation.
But the head of the organisation that operates the Victor 6,000, Jan Opderbecke, of the French Research Institute for Exploitation of the Sea, told BBC News that “where there is still hope, we have to try”.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6493182d1babaa614a472d7b%26Two%20hours%20to%20prepare%20the%20Victor%206000%262023-06-21T15%3A39%3A47.263Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:f68e4112-d7d7-47e6-8854-fbeb022102c9&pinned_post_asset_id=6493182d1babaa614a472d7b&pinned_post_type=share
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Great analysis, dogmush, especially pointing out the variable bouyancy due to changing volume of the entire craft under various pressures.
On the joystick, I wondered if the tiny resistors or potentiometers (1/4 Watt, 1/2 Watt ?) would handle any substantial load for very long. Even if used to control a fly-by-wire computer control. I could just see him hooking them up to the control motors directly... "Hey, this works great!"
(Too much theory, not enough engineering.)
The Logitech F710 is a wireless controller that operates close to the Bluetooth frequencies. The receiver is a little USB dongle. I've found through experience that that dongle has to be pretty much line of sight and fairly close to the game pad for the pad to operate correctly. It's also important to keep any Bluetooth devices several feet away from the game pad and receiver. Any loss of signal or interference causes control problems.
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Maybe we'll get some answers
Press conference in 30 minutes
The US Coast Guard will share the latest on the search in 30 minutes, at 18:00 BST.
Captain Jamie Frederick, the First Coast Guard District response coordinator, will provide an update on the ongoing effort to find the missing submersible.
Stay with us for updates. You'll be able to stream live at the top of the page.
13:00 EST
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464
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There is a lot of speculation on the noise. With a CP-140 and possibly a P8 on scene if someone were to start banging for 3 minutes straight it would give them plenty of time to get a fix. A 5x6 sonobouy patern (5 rows of 6 bouys) with a 10 nautical mile spacing would give you a large area of coverage. If they are using bouys that you can get direction from you can plot from several bouys and get a pretty accurate fix, just ask Ivan from the Cold War in his submarine. Banging noises and other odd noises are often present in the ocean. I think they (the news and other ill informed spokespeople) should just say the search is continuing. In all reality unless they are found, even bobbing on the surface very soon there time is limited. Of course that assumes they did not have a catastrophic event.
bob
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Thanks, RocketMan. That (Reply # 108) would seem to eliminate any direct connection problems.
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Listening in on the press conference.
He doesn't know what the noise were and he's doesn't know about the 30 minute thing, just that the P-3 heard something. I suspected as much.
No new info otherwise so far.
Press keeps asking about the noise. It was noise basically is the answer.
I'm still thinking except for the investigation into what happened and possible recovery of debris this was over Sunday. Hope I'm wrong.
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(https://images.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/TITAN-Manned-submersible5.jpg)
This diagram was published in today's Seattle Times: https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation/canadian-aircraft-has-detected-underwater-noises-in-search-for-missing-sub-near-titanic/
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More of the sub is/was a piece of junk we've been hearing but this caught my attention
With Loibl inside, the Titan travelled around the wreck twice and once even touched down on its deck, he said, before making the return journey.
That bothers me to no end, not only are they disturbing the wreck but are also adding needless risks to the lives of the passengers. If they did make it down to the Titanic they very well could be trapped by debris if this was routine.
'I went on Titan - it was a SUICIDE mission!': German who paid OceanGate to see Titanic wreck in 2021 says he was 'incredibly lucky' to make it after one sub 'didn't work', there were 'electrical problems' and a piece of the vessel FELL OFF
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12218125/German-paid-OceanGate-Titanic-wreck-2021-says-incredibly-lucky-make-it.html
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Listening in on the press conference.
He doesn't know what the noise were and he's doesn't know about the 30 minute thing, just that the P-3 heard something. I suspected as much.
Theoretically, that noise could be in a sound tunnel and be a thousand miles, or more, away from the site. Just a nit-pick, the Canadians don't have P3s. They have the CP140 which when designed many years ago was a P3 airframe with S3 avionics. The USN no longer has any active squadrons with P3s, they have all switched to the P8. Even the training squadron in Jacksonville is sundowning their last P3 in a few days. But why would a Coastie know about other countries and our aircraft? Accuracy perhaps.
bob
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. . . The CEO of OceanGate, which is operating the missing Titanic tourist submarine, explains that the company didn’t want to hire any experienced “50 year old white guys” because they weren’t “inspirational.” :facepalm:
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1671372833979785217
So rather than hire The Skipper or even The Professor, they went with . . . Gilligan.
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Another press conference is about to start
We're set to hear from Horizon Maritime Services and Miawpukek Horizon representatives.
These are the groups behind the Polar Prince ship, which the Titan submersible launched from.
We're expecting a brief statement and will bring you updates as they happen.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464
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So rather than hire The Skipper or even The Professor, they went with . . . Gilligan.
Only if he is a person of color and buys his Bud Light at Target.
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So rather than hire The Skipper or even The Professor, they went with . . . Gilligan.
Interesting feelings about experienced 50 year old white guys given that he was a 61 year old experienced white guy: https://oceangate.com/about/leadership/stockton-rush.html
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As far as backups go, they can take any form. However, going into a deadly situation like that, I would expect a system that has plenty of backups and fail safes to avoid getting stranded. I don't know enough about this craft to know what went into it. The design might have a lot of that covered. And until or unless we find the craft, we won't know what happened.
It would bother me that there is a potential to be floating on the surface and die of asphyxiation or CO2 poisoning because there is no way to get out of the sub.
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As far as backups go, they can take any form. However, going into a deadly situation like that, I would expect a system that has plenty of backups and fail safes to avoid getting stranded. I don't know enough about this craft to know what went into it. The design might have a lot of that covered. And until or unless we find the craft, we won't know what happened.
It would bother me that there is a potential to be floating on the surface and die of asphyxiation or CO2 poisoning because there is no way to get out of the sub.
Then again, if you could get out of the sub but your launch ship had lost track of you, how long do you think you'll survive bobbing around in arctic Atlantic seawater?
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If and when things shift from rescue to recovery, I wonder if anyone will stick around the site to actually attempt a recovery? Will any of the passengers' families or the company itself make any efforts, now or later, to recover of the sub? Of course, this assumes that the sub isn't already in little tiny pieces scattered around the Titanic debris field.
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As far as backups go, they can take any form. However, going into a deadly situation like that, I would expect a system that has plenty of backups and fail safes to avoid getting stranded. I don't know enough about this craft to know what went into it. The design might have a lot of that covered. And until or unless we find the craft, we won't know what happened.
It would bother me that there is a potential to be floating on the surface and die of asphyxiation or CO2 poisoning because there is no way to get out of the sub.
I seem to recall seeing a snorkel on the boat. That would at least allow for fresh air if on the surface.
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If and when things shift from rescue to recovery, I wonder if anyone will stick around the site to actually attempt a recovery? Will any of the passengers' families or the company itself make any efforts, now or later, to recover of the sub? Of course, this assumes that the sub isn't already in little tiny pieces scattered around the Titanic debris field.
I’d guess that will be a “no”.
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I seem to recall seeing a snorkel on the boat. That would at least allow for fresh air if on the surface.
And another potential point of failure at depth.
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As far as backups go, they can take any form. However, going into a deadly situation like that, I would expect a system that has plenty of backups and fail safes to avoid getting stranded. I don't know enough about this craft to know what went into it. The design might have a lot of that covered. And until or unless we find the craft, we won't know what happened.
It would bother me that there is a potential to be floating on the surface and die of asphyxiation or CO2 poisoning because there is no way to get out of the sub.
Even if you did build some sort of internal dog system to keep the hatch closed, you'd be pretty hard pressed to pop it and get the hatch open before pressure equalized inside and outside the sub, which would happen sometime after the sub started it's newest descent. I'd have to pull out my Damage Control formulas for the weight of seawater holding an 8.5ft in diameter hemispherical hatch closed at the surface, but off the top of my head it's more than you can reliably push with just a couple people.
I seem to recall seeing a snorkel on the boat. That would at least allow for fresh air if on the surface.
I think that was the fairing covering the vertical thrusters. The pics of it I've seen in depth testing pretty clearly show a sealed pressure hull with no openings.
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I seem to recall seeing a snorkel on the boat. That would at least allow for fresh air if on the surface.
That's not a snorkel, and it's not close enough to the pressure vessel to be a snorkel.
My guess is it's a periscope. Again, digitally linked through wireless rather than a mechanical linkage through the hull.
(https://images.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/TITAN-Manned-submersible5.jpg)
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Who thing makes me think of this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw) (not a rick roll)
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And another potential point of failure at depth.
There are already a portal/view point. Engineering design problems to solve. If you want to dive to 12000 feet in a sealed cylinder with no view, be my guest. That doesn't appeal to me.
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The mast at the back is almost certainly the antenna for coms with the tender. The periscope was a Camera at the front by the hatch seam, and not on that diagram.
You can see the antenna cable going to the mast and the periscope bracket on the pic of testing with no fairings on. THen the actual camera/periscope on the later pics.
(https://cdn.geekwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Titan-on-Platform_preview-1260x840.jpeg)
(https://cdn.geekwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Titan-Dive-Prep_preview-1260x840.jpeg)
(https://cdn.geekwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/titanrender.png)
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Anyways, they all had it coming.
https://twitchy.com/dougp/2023/06/21/the-new-republic-reminds-us-ceo-missing-in-titanic-sub-had-history-of-gop-donations-n2384721
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Also brings up the fact that was brought up in earlier articles the sub relies on comm ties with the mothership to navigate and it's basically lost without it.
Sub-standard: Mexican actor shares how doomed Titan submersible's batteries suddenly drained during 2022 trip to Titanic, forcing tour to end early - with communications also blacking out for two hours
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12219589/Missing-Titans-sub-battery-suddenly-DRAINED-2022-Titanic-trip-cutting-expedition-short.html
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Maybe crazy ideas based on the above.
They lost comms but decided to continue anyway and hit the Titanic and could be stuck or lost power and was pushed into it by the currents.
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Maybe crazy ideas based on the above.
They lost comms but decided to continue anyway and hit the Titanic and could be stuck or lost power and was pushed into it by the currents.
That would be remarkably stupid.
Also brings up the fact that was brought up in earlier articles the sub relies on comm ties with the mothership to navigate and it's basically lost without it.
Sub-standard: Mexican actor shares how doomed Titan submersible's batteries suddenly drained during 2022 trip to Titanic, forcing tour to end early - with communications also blacking out for two hours
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12219589/Missing-Titans-sub-battery-suddenly-DRAINED-2022-Titanic-trip-cutting-expedition-short.html
I'm not sure how else one would navigate unless you had an Inertial Nav system. They make them small enough to fit in aircraft, so theoretically they could have installed one, but I have no idea how power hungry one is, and if the .mil has released them to civilian use. Short of that, I'm not sure what other tech exists to navigate under water except getting range and bearing from a known location (Tender w/ GPS).I agree that 15 min between pings is ludicrously long for this application.
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That would be remarkably stupid.
Since when has that stopped anyone?
Pilot could have thought, "I've done this before so I know where it is" and they already had a bunch of embarrassing failed runs. Like I said crazy idea, just something that popped into my head after reading the above
Oh and couldn't you use sonar to navigate with known points say like the Titanic? Don't think this sub was equipped with sonar though.
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Still got to find it.
This is the machine that could pull the sub to the surface
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=64936b671babaa614a472d9b%26This%20is%20the%20machine%20that%20could%20pull%20the%20sub%20to%20the%20surface%262023-06-21T22%3A54%3A37.478Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:5c592c46-8f84-4b01-af82-74e6e891d187&pinned_post_asset_id=64936b671babaa614a472d9b&pinned_post_type=share
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A Titanic connection in the family
The wife of the CEO of OceanGate, who was piloting the missing Titanic tourist submersible, is descended from a wealthy New York couple who drowned on the Titanic.
Wendy Rush's husband, Stockton, is among five people inside the sub, which went missing on Sunday during a trip to visit the Titanic wreckage.
Wendy's great-great-grandparents Isidor and Ida died in the 1912 disaster.
In the 1997 James Cameron film, they were depicted lying on a bed embracing as the icy waters rose around them.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12220775/Submersible-pilots-wife-descendant-famous-Titanic-couple-died-arm-arm.html
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I'm not sure how else one would navigate unless you had an Inertial Nav system.
GOOGLE MAPS, of course!
:duh:
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Oh and couldn't you use sonar to navigate with known points say like the Titanic? Don't think this sub was equipped with sonar though.
Like a sidescan sonar? Maybe. The ones I've used to map harbors were kinda rough to use for navigation. It'd be easy to pick the wrong blob to navigate to. Since I made that first post however, I poked around and you can get a commercial grade INS for between $5k and $8k, which, if I were building a sub for open water use seems like a pretty solid investment.
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Like a sidescan sonar? Maybe. The ones I've used to map harbors were kinda rough to use for navigation. It'd be easy to pick the wrong blob to navigate to. Since I made that first post however, I poked around and you can get a commercial grade INS for between $5k and $8k, which, if I were building a sub for open water use seems like a pretty solid investment.
Alvin which was used to explore the Titanic in the 80s. Note the sonar. How useful it was for nav I don't know but in the the case of the Titanic it may have been aim for big blob
https://www.bluebird-electric.net/submarines/alvin_dsv_submersible_woods_hole_oceongraphic_institution_us_navy.htm
(https://www.bluebird-electric.net/submarines/submarine_pictures/Alvin_DSV-2_WHOI_submersible_cutaway_diagram.jpg)
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Sidescan for navigation enhancement is still prototypical and pretty complex.
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2306/2306.06822.pdf
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Commentary from a man who has been there and done that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIbtKU6RAxg
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When I was in, in 76, the NR-1 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_submarine_NR-1) was the new hot *expletive deleted*it. It was super secret and was moored right next to us at the New London/Groton, CT Nuke sub base (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Submarine_Base_New_London). They floated a tarp out next to the pier and something surfaced under it. They unzipped a flap in the tarp and tied up then disembarked. All the while, armed US Marines and UDT Divers guarded the sub and the pier with "shoot to kill" orders!
We later went out, met a tug who transferred the end of a line to us and left. We tied off the line to the stern cleats and towed the line to Holy Loch, Scotland, never once seeing the NR-1 attached to the other end of the line. We COULD, however, hear the sub communicating with our ship via some strange, encrypted, acoustic system that you could hear through the hill of the ship.
Imagine my surprise at seeing the NR-1 on full display, with schematics, in a National Graphic article in a Dr's office a decade or 3 later!
The USS Nautilus (https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/ships/submarines/uss-nautilus.html) was across the pier from us when she was brought in for decommissioning.
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I hope they brought toilet paper.
Not a joke. Just pointing out the umentionable necessities for that long a period. We talk about CO2 scrubbing and food supplies and air supplies, but nobody's mentioned the necessary bodily functions for that long a period.
For that reason, among many others, I hope it was a sudden catastrophic merciful end to the mission on Sunday.
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Still completely unclear on whether or not this supposed "banging" sound is/was every 30 minutes or not. Some reports say it was then another implies it then another doesn't even mention it and then I see one where they say it wasn't.
Then to add to the confusion one reports says it's was/is banging noise then the next says it was just a noise or something or even if it occurred once, twice, or whatever.
Until I see a clear unambiguous report from the Coast Guard or similar that clearly states it was a banging sound every 30 minutes I'm still thinking this was all over Sunday.
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Still completely unclear on whether or not this supposed "banging" sound is/was every 30 minutes or not. Some reports say it was then another implies it then another doesn't even mention it and then I see one where they say it wasn't.
Then to add to the confusion one reports says it's a banging noise then the next says it was just a nois or something.
Until I see a clear unambiguous report from the Coast Guard or similar that clearly states it was a banging sound every 30 minutes I'm still thinking this was all over Sunday.
I place almost zero stock in news reports of such occurrences. I’m going to concur in it imploded Sunday and going to postulate that the cheaped out on window is what did it. Utter stupidity to cheap out on such a vital aspect of the design.
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I hope they brought toilet paper.
Not a joke. Just pointing out the umentionable necessities for that long a period. We talk about CO2 scrubbing and food supplies and air supplies, but nobody's mentioned the necessary bodily functions for that long a period.
For that reason, among many others, I hope it was a sudden catastrophic merciful end to the mission on Sunday.
People may laugh but that is a very serous concern.
Same for space flight. People laugh but it's a very serious subject and must be dealt with.
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Still completely unclear on whether or not this supposed "banging" sound is/was every 30 minutes or not. Some reports say it was then another implies it then another doesn't even mention it and then I see one where they say it wasn't.
Then to add to the confusion one reports says it's was/is banging noise then the next says it was just a noise or something or even if it occurred once, twice, or whatever.
Until I see a clear unambiguous report from the Coast Guard or similar that clearly states it was a banging sound every 30 minutes I'm still thinking this was all over Sunday.
That "30 minutes" looks to be our trusty news services. The USCG only confirmed that sounds were heard. Refer to what BobR said about sounds in the ocean.
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The vagary about the banging reminds me of the Mysterious Morse Code-like signals picked up in the movie "On The Beach" (1959). Even knowing the ending, I still enjoy that movie when it shows up on the Old TV Channels.
Spoiler Alert:
After much effort and agony searching for the incomprehensible "Not-Morse" signals in a San Francisco power plant...
"A crew member discovers the power source is still running on automatic control. Nearby, a telegraph key has become entangled in a window shade's pull cord and a half-full Coca-Cola bottle, and is being randomly pulled by an ocean breeze, causing the radio signals." (Wiki)
That's not the actual dramatic ending of the movie, so I don't feel bad spoiling that part of it.
But this "banging" "sound" reminded me of it... a variable ocean current swinging an anchor against a sunken hull? A ringing buoy in otherwise pretty calm water... perhaps only disturbed by passing wakes?
(https://savethewater.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/18125888370_1291bf7cb2_o.jpg)
I would bet we find out what the "banging" is/was before the mystery of the submarine is solved.
Terry, 230RN
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Has anyone seen anything on whether or not the every 15 minute "phone home" pings were done automatically or manually?
Reason I ask is if done manually and something happened to the air supply and incapacitated the crew that could explain the loss of contact and the lack of a emergency weight drop.
Just trying to come up with other possibilities other than implosion. Not discounting implosion but think other possibilities should be explored as well.
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What happened to the air supply is it was replaced with sea water at high pressure.
Boomhauer I think has nailed it, that bitch had a catastrophic leak that filled her and sank her faster than a coms message could be sent out. Odds are very high everyone on board died before they were even noticed missing.
I also agree that when they find the wreck, it's likely to show wither the port failed, or the hatch seals.
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I'm still thinking implosion is the most likely explanation and have from the start. Just think we shouldn't blind ourselves to other possibilities.
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I also agree that when they find the wreck, it's likely to show wither the port failed, or the hatch seals.
If an implosion did occur may not be enough left intact for that. Pieces could be so intermingled with the Titanic debris field we may never find much if anything.
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Implosion is, IMHO, less likely.
For it to implode, the pressure hull would have to fail at a depth significantly shallower than it's test and previous dives. Sure, that could happen, but the hull itself is actually pretty well designed and 5" of carbon composite is strong enough to hold the pressure barring damage.
I'm assuming what caused the sinking also caused the commo loss (Occam's razor and all that), so whatever happened happened 1.5 to 1.75 hours into the dive, which shoulf have been only(?!?) 6000 or so feet deep.
On the other hand, is she sprung a leak, either a failed hatch seal (or improperly sealed hatch) or the aforementioned not quite up to snuff porthole, then the water would rapidly start filling up the hull, decreasing buoyancy and speeding up the descent. Things would rapidly accelerate as the sub got heavier, and more air was replaced by water, but by the time she got to hull crush depth the inside would be full of water, and the pressures equalized, so no implosion. If that porthole gave way, all that would have happened in seconds.
So that's my money: She sprung an unsurvivable leak that filled the inside with water and she sank from about halfway into the dive. She's probably sitting half buried in the muck she augured into full of water and 5 bodies. But that's just me betting on the odds.
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Assuming implosion. Whether we find debris, and in quantity sufficient to determine the cause of the failure will depend largely on how far from the bottom the failure occurred. If they were basically on the bottom then the debris field should be fairly compact depending on the currents and size/weight of the debris. If they were 1/2-3/4 of the way down, so still several thousand feet above the bottom the debris field could be many miles long. And with such a small vessel you’d only ever find the biggest pieces.
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Breaking Debris field found - US Coast Guard
A debris field has been discovered within the search area by an ROV near the Titanic, the US Coast Guard has just announced.
Experts within the unified command are evaluating the information.
We will bring you more details shortly.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=64946dc7f2e5745fd8a782db%26Debris%20field%20found%20-%20US%20Coast%20Guard%262023-06-22T15%3A50%3A32.421Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:021873ea-55df-41f9-9de5-926aaf985678&pinned_post_asset_id=64946dc7f2e5745fd8a782db&pinned_post_type=share
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I'm assuming what caused the sinking also caused the commo loss (Occam's razor and all that), so whatever happened happened 1.5 to 1.75 hours into the dive, which shoulf have been only(?!?) 6000 or so feet deep.
Though again, if they used the same transponders that other ROVs and AUVs use, it would be a tube 3" diameter by 20" or thereabouts attached to the outside of the hull and with an independent internal power source. If sinking caused commo loss, the transponder should take a licking but keep on ticking. That both the transponder and commo went out is what leads me to believe catastrophic event.
Although also again, these guys are appearing not to be the sharpest knives in the drawer, so who know if they were using "best practices" for the transponder. We already saw they weren't with the ridiculous 15 minute ping intervals.
As to the manual vs automatic question, transponders are programmed, so basically automatic.
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Implosion is. IMHO. less likely.
For it to implode, the pressure hull would have to fail at a depth significantly shallower than it's test and previous dives. Sure, that could happen, but the hull itself is actually pretty well designed and 5" of carbon composite is strong enough to hold the pressure barring damage.
I'm assuming what caused the sinking also caused the commo loss (Occam's razor and all that), so whatever happened happened 1.5 to 1.75 hours into the dive, which shoulf have been only(?!?) 6000 or so feet deep.
On the other hand, is she sprung a leak, either a failed hatch seal (or improperly sealed hatch) or the aforementioned not quite up to snuff porthole, then the water would rapidly start filling up the hull, decreasing buoyancy and speeding up the descent. Things would rapidly accelerate as the sub got heavier, and more air was replaced by water, but by the time she got to hull crush depth the inside would be full of water, and the pressures equalized, so no implosion. If that porthole gave way, all that would have happened in seconds.
So that's my money: She sprung an unsurvivable leak that filled the inside with water and she sank from about halfway into the dive. She's probably sitting half buried in the muck she augured into full of water and 5 bodies. But that's just me betting on the odds.
At 12,000 ft it's pretty much an all or nothing affair. No real such thing as a small leak at those depths
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Assuming implosion. Whether we find debris, and in quantity sufficient to determine the cause of the failure will depend largely on how far from the bottom the failure occurred. If they were basically on the bottom then the debris field should be fairly compact depending on the currents and size/weight of the debris. If they were 1/2-3/4 of the way down, so still several thousand feet above the bottom the debris field could be many miles long. And with such a small vessel you’d only ever find the biggest pieces.
If the above debris "field" found report pans out we'll see
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More
Coast Guard to give update on debris field at 15:00 local time
With the breaking news of a debris field being found in the search, US Coast Guard has announced it will hold a press conference at 15:00 local time (20:00 GMT).
A statement from the Coast Guard says the Horizon Arctic’s ROV (remotely operated vehicle) found debris on the sea floor near the Titanic wreck.
Rear Adm. John Mauger, the First Coast Guard District commander and Capt. Jamie Frederick, the First Coast Guard District response coordinator, will be speaking.
Edit: 15:00 EST (03:00pm) When they say local time I guess they mean Boston not New Newfoundland.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=649470571babaa614a472eb4%26Coast%20Guard%20to%20give%20update%20on%20debris%20field%20at%2015%3A00%20local%20time%262023-06-22T16%3A06%3A57.896Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:4dd9dd6f-3b87-4ded-8079-cd29e9ce415f&pinned_post_asset_id=649470571babaa614a472eb4&pinned_post_type=share
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Jeeze, I hope it wasn't my guns.
(Tasteless but irresistible joke... sorry!)
We'll see what happens at the CG conference, but it's looking like it was sudden, thank G-d.
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Lets be clear here
It's a reported debris field and may have nothing to do with the Titan.
But the fact they've already scheduled a news conference makes me wonder. Could have been a previously scheduled update though
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Lets be clear here
It's reported debris field and may have nothing to do with the Titan.
But the fact they've already scheduled a news conference makes me wonder. Could have been a previously scheduled update though
Looking at ADSB exchange I don't see any aerial searching underway in the area and there is a CG plane headed from Newfoundland back to the SW (Boston?). There is a possibility they have stopped the surface search already. Even if the debris field is not the submersible they are looking for the odds of them still being alive is about none to nearly none IMO. Of course, the O2 estimates were based on 5 people exchanging O2 for CO2, less people would make it last longer if anyone were alive. Sounds like a movie plot.
bob
bob
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Looking at ADSB exchange I don't see any aerial searching underway in the area and there is a CG plane headed from Newfoundland back to the SW (Boston?). There is a possibility they have stopped the surface search already. Even if the debris field is not the submersible they are looking for the odds of them still being alive is about none to nearly none IMO. Of course, the O2 estimates were based on 5 people exchanging O2 for CO2, less people would make it last longer if anyone were alive. Sounds like a movie plot.
bob
bob
I've check FlightRadar24 a few times and never saw any on site search aircraft show up.
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Looking at ADSB exchange I don't see any aerial searching underway in the area and there is a CG plane headed from Newfoundland back to the SW (Boston?). There is a possibility they have stopped the surface search already. Even if the debris field is not the submersible they are looking for the odds of them still being alive is about none to nearly none IMO. Of course, the O2 estimates were based on 5 people exchanging O2 for CO2, less people would make it last longer if anyone were alive. Sounds like a movie plot.
bob
bob
Unless they started killing folks not much they could do to extend the O2 supply, if they were alive after comm loss and before this morning.
If they were on the surface and they had some means to get fresh air they could still be alive.
But, the debris field, and circumstantial evidence before it was found pointed to a sudden catastrophic failure shortly after the last ping.
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Addendum to my above post:
I just finished listening to a twitter space with some submersible design experts from Woods Hole (I think they said). They talked about the brittleness of the carbon composite causing basically very small stress fractures on each dive, which would lead to a catastrophic pressure hull failure (implosion) at significantly less than test depth. Basically, where metal is elastic and squeezes and gets bigger, the composites will crack a little bit every time they are compressed until they give unexpectedly. They said it was very tricky to get the composite just right to avoid this.
I'm not a materials engineer, so I'll take that expert at his word. This puts the likelihood of an implosion during the descent phase as the new "most likely" explanation. If that's the case, and it jives with a large-ish debris field on the bottom, I'm not sure anyone will bother to try and raise enough pieces to definitively say either way. At least it would have been quick.
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Addendum to my above post:
I just finished listening to a twitter space with some submersible design experts from Woods Hole (I think they said). They talked about the brittleness of the carbon composite causing basically very small stress fractures on each dive, which would lead to a catastrophic pressure hull failure (implosion) at significantly less than test depth. Basically, where metal is elastic and squeezes and gets bigger, the composites will crack a little bit every time they are compressed until they give unexpectedly. They said it was very tricky to get the composite just right to avoid this.
Recall seeing that mentioned in one or more of the news articles I scanned where they were criticizing the building of the sub.
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Addendum to my above post:
I just finished listening to a twitter space with some submersible design experts from Woods Hole (I think they said). They talked about the brittleness of the carbon composite causing basically very small stress fractures on each dive, which would lead to a catastrophic pressure hull failure (implosion) at significantly less than test depth. Basically, where metal is elastic and squeezes and gets bigger, the composites will crack a little bit every time they are compressed until they give unexpectedly. They said it was very tricky to get the composite just right to avoid this.
I'm not a materials engineer, so I'll take that expert at his word. This puts the likelihood of an implosion during the descent phase as the new "most likely" explanation. If that's the case, and it jives with a large-ish debris field on the bottom, I'm not sure anyone will bother to try and raise enough pieces to definitively say either way. At least it would have been quick.
That is correct about composites. Hence why safety critical composites are life limited usually, and often require regular (non destructive) inspections. Fatigue analysis is tricky with metals due to the large amount of scatter in the data. Composite materials, due to the process dependent nature of their strength properties is even worse for analysis accuracy. So large safety factors are needed, and/or frequent inspections.
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Got curious about what other ships have sunk in that area and came across this site
zoom in and out as needed. Ship names appear if you zoom in enough
Sunken Ships of the Second World War
https://mapsterman.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/fe88b5e18c6443c7afaf6e32f8432687
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OceanGate claims in it's blurbs that the Titan had some kind of integrated hull health sensor system. I'd be interested in an acedemic way on what that was and how it worked.
I tried to go to their website and get the exact verbage they used, but their site is down.
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That is correct about composites. Hence why safety critical composites are life limited usually, and often require regular (non destructive) inspections. Fatigue analysis is tricky with metals due to the large amount of scatter in the data. Composite materials, due to the process dependent nature of their strength properties is even worse for analysis accuracy. So large safety factors are needed, and/or frequent inspections.
Would this also apply to aircraft components, like the composite fuselage of the Boeing 787? It is not seagoing, but there is pressure cycling during ascents and descents.
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Confirmed Titan debris
Breaking' Landing frame and a rear cover from the submersible' among the debris
We have just had an update from dive expert David Mearns, who says the debris includes "a landing frame and a rear cover from the submersible".
Mearns is a friend of passengers aboard the Titan.
David Mearns has told the BBC that the president of the Explorers Club (which is connected to the diving and rescue community), says the debris includes "a landing frame and a rear cover from the submersible".
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6494841bf2e5745fd8a78300%26%27Landing%20frame%20and%20a%20rear%20cover%20from%20the%20submersible%27%20among%20the%20debris%262023-06-22T17%3A25%3A47.784Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:bdcc76ef-88b0-4781-ac13-4a44dec7419b&pinned_post_asset_id=6494841bf2e5745fd8a78300&pinned_post_type=share
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"some kind of integrated hull health sensor system."
Taken from an XBox or a Play Station?
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OceanGate claims in it's blurbs that the Titan had some kind of integrated hull health sensor system. I'd be interested in an acedemic way on what that was and how it worked.
I tried to go to their website and get the exact verbage they used, but their site is down.
https://web.archive.org/web/20230619165742/https://www.oceangate.com/our-subs/titan-submersible.html
Real-Time Health Monitoring
The most significant innovation is the proprietary real-time hull health monitoring (RTM) system. Titan is the only manned submersible to employ an integrated real-time health monitoring system. Utilizing co-located acoustic sensors and strain gauges throughout the pressure boundary, the RTM system makes it possible to analyze the effects of changing pressure on the vessel as the submersible dives deeper, and accurately assess the integrity of the structure. This onboard health analysis monitoring system provides early warning detection for the pilot with enough time to arrest the descent and safely return to surface.
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I wondered that about the brittleness of the carbon fiber. I have very little knowledge other than from viewing images from a completely different application: carbon fiber arrows that shattered and did a number on the archer.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20230619165742/https://www.oceangate.com/our-subs/titan-submersible.html
Thanks, that's the blurb I was looking for.
Although:
Real-Time Health Monitoring
The most significant innovation is the proprietary real-time hull health monitoring (RTM) system. Titan is the only manned submersible to employ an integrated real-time health monitoring system. Utilizing co-located acoustic sensors and strain gauges throughout the pressure boundary, the RTM system makes it possible to analyze the effects of changing pressure on the vessel as the submersible dives deeper, and accurately assess the integrity of the structure. This onboard health analysis monitoring system provides early warning detection for the pilot with enough time to arrest the descent and safely return to surface.
Clearly not.
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I wondered that about the brittleness of the carbon fiber. I have very little knowledge other than from viewing images from a completely different application: carbon fiber arrows that shattered and did a number on the archer.
I kinda wondered about that a little since I heard one expert say it was only about 28 or 29 degrees F down there. Not bad, but under those repetitive dives/cycles, it makes you wonder.
Remember my remarks about how the pressure is like an absolute vacuum inside the vessel compared to the outside pressure, and my mentioning how large CRT picture tubes "ex"ploded when broken and throw high velocity glass all over. And that was only a 14.7 psi pressure differential brtween inside the CRT tube and the air in the room. This scattering accounts for the dispersion of the pieces in an implosion.
Terry, 230RN
REF (TV picture tube broken by a thrown brick The brick broke in half):
https://youtu.be/_kAxSaETJRI (2:23)
The tube implodes, but the pieces still go flying through the middle and out the other side.
Pressure ("vacuum") in a TV picture tube is usually around 2 X 10^-7psi. (0.0000002 psi)
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Would this also apply to aircraft components, like the composite fuselage of the Boeing 787? It is not seagoing, but there is pressure cycling during ascents and descents.
Yes
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Jeeze, I hope it wasn't my guns.
(Tasteless but irresistible joke... sorry!)
Doesn't bother me.
Already seen a bunch of memes but I'm holding off on posting them here for the moment.
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Titan submersible parts believed to be found among the debris
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=649489af523d5b12617081dc%26Titan%20submersible%20parts%20believed%20to%20be%20found%20among%20the%20debris%262023-06-22T17%3A51%3A07.758Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:2ab74475-596d-498e-944a-9785095ffb60&pinned_post_asset_id=649489af523d5b12617081dc&pinned_post_type=share
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2023/6/22/487befb4-ae8a-43e7-a1d9-0fea9b07dda1.png)
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I place almost zero stock in news reports of such occurrences. I’m going to concur in it imploded Sunday and going to postulate that the cheaped out on window is what did it. Utter stupidity to cheap out on such a vital aspect of the design.
The only references I have seen to the quality of the porthole have been in this thread. What was the deal on the window? Got any links to articles discussing it?
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The only references I have seen to the quality of the porthole have been in this thread. What was the deal on the window? Got any links to articles discussing it?
It comes from a 2018 Lawsuit between OceanGate and their former Director of Marine Operations
Article on sub here: https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/20/a-whistleblower-raised-safety-concerns-about-oceangates-submersible-in-2018-then-he-was-fired/
Lawsuit here: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wawd.262471/gov.uscourts.wawd.262471.7.0.pdf
From Page 12 of the lawsuit:
19. At the meeting, Lochridge discovered why he had been denied access to the viewport information from the Engineering department—the viewport at the forward of the submersible was only built to a certified pressure of 1,300 meters, although OceanGate intended to take passengers down to depths of 4,000 meters. Lochridge learned that the viewport manufacturer would only certify to a depth of 1,300 meters due to the experimental design of the viewport supplied by OceanGate, which was out of the Pressure Vessels for Human Occupancy (“PVHO”) standards. OceanGate refused to pay for the manufacturer to build a viewport that would meet the required depth of 4,000 meters.
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OceanGate claims in it's blurbs that the Titan had some kind of integrated hull health sensor system. I'd be interested in an acedemic way on what that was and how it worked.
I tried to go to their website and get the exact verbage they used, but their site is down.
I saw an article discussing (and dismissing) this. They were apparently strain gauge sensors embedded throughout the composite. The conclusion of the article was that, by the time a sensor like that reported an out-of-spec reading, it would already be too late to do anything about it.
IMHO, it's another example of OceanGate's (which probably means Lockton's) hubris. Apparently he was sort of a whiz kid. The problem with that is that he may have decided that he knew better than the cumulative expertise of people who knew more than he did to begin with. That's what led to firing the operations director who didn't think the Titan was safe. Unfortunately, Lockton didn't put just himself at risk. He put up a web site that seems to have greatly embellished on the purported safety of the vessel, thereby putting his customers at risk.
Engineering always includes a factor of safety, and the factor of safety generally gets larger as the risks become greater. Dogmush has posted that a 5-inch thick tube hull "should" be strong enough for a depth of 13,000 feet -- and it was, for a few dives. But I wonder what the safety factor was in that design? How much of a safety factor would you want in the vessel taking you down to where the external pressure is thousands of atmospheres? Lockton, according to articles, liked to "innovate," which probably means pushing the envelope. My bet is that he didn't design in much of a safety factor.
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"some kind of integrated hull health sensor system."
Taken from an XBox or a Play Station?
Length of clothesline rope stretched across the interior ...
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I saw an article discussing (and dismissing) this. They were apparently strain gauge sensors embedded throughout the composite. The conclusion of the article was that, by the time a sensor like that reported an out-of-spec reading, it would already be too late to do anything about it.
IMHO, it's another example of OceanGate's (which probably means Lockton's) hubris. Apparently he was sort of a whiz kid. The problem with that is that he may have decided that he knew better than the cumulative expertise of people who knew more than he did to begin with. That's what led to firing the operations director who didn't think the Titan was safe. Unfortunately, Lockton didn't put just himself at risk. He put up a web site that seems to have greatly embellished on the purported safety of the vessel, thereby putting his customers at risk.
Engineering always includes a factor of safety, and the factor of safety generally gets larger as the risks become greater. Dogmush has posted that a 5-inch thick tube hull "should" be strong enough for a depth of 13,000 feet -- and it was, for a few dives. But I wonder what the safety factor was in that design? How much of a safety factor would you want in the vessel taking you down to where the external pressure is thousands of atmospheres? Lockton, according to articles, liked to "innovate," which probably means pushing the envelope. My bet is that he didn't design in much of a safety factor.
And on that last, how do you feel about the risk of a vessel where you are pushing down close to a single digit safety factor % (it might actually be more). That is getting pretty tight. Does the carbon fiber material accumulate damage or fatigue with each dive? If so, I am sure it is cumulative. Our tech is probably better at evaluating that with steel rather than composites, but that is outside my experience.
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Engineering always includes a factor of safety, and the factor of safety generally gets larger as the risks become greater. Dogmush has posted that a 5-inch thick tube hull "should" be strong enough for a depth of 13,000 feet -- and it was, for a few dives. But I wonder what the safety factor was in that design? How much of a safety factor would you want in the vessel taking you down to where the external pressure is thousands of atmospheres? Lockton, according to articles, liked to "innovate," which probably means pushing the envelope. My bet is that he didn't design in much of a safety factor.
I don't disagree with your post, but since I amateur gunsmith, run vessels at sea, and generally build things I feel like I need to point out in my defense that "should be strong enough" is the back of envelope SWAG step that precedes researching the material, math, and testing, not the last step before hopping in the MF'er and setting sail.
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Would this also apply to aircraft components, like the composite fuselage of the Boeing 787? It is not seagoing, but there is pressure cycling during ascents and descents.
In general all pressurized aircraft (to my knowledge) are subject to cycle limits on top of the component inspections whether they are traditional metal or composite construction.
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And on that last, how do you feel about the risk of a vessel where you are pushing down close to a single digit safety factor %. That is getting pretty tight. Does the carbon fiber material accumulate damage or fatigue with each dive? If so, I am sure it is cumulative. Our tech is probably better at evaluating that with steel rather than composites, but that is outside my experience.
It's outside my experience as well, but I note that Carbon Overwraped Pressure Vessels exist, and 414bar is available COTS, with custom 700bar vessels available, so it's within someone's experience. Perhaps they were a 50 something white guy.
*Yes I know that internal pressure and strength in tension is not the same as external pressure and strength in compression, but still, these aren't exactly uncharted waters for industry, just OceanGate, apparantlly.
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OceanGate has issued a statement confirming all 5 are dead.
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In general all pressurized aircraft (to my knowledge) are subject to cycle limits on top of the component inspections whether they are traditional metal or composite construction.
Aircraft lifespan is measured in pressurization cycles vs airframe hours for the most part. Each type has a limit for pressurization cycles and once it is hit that plane is scrapped. I am sure somewhere in there are inspection intervals to make sure they don't suddenly turn their airplane into a convertible ala Hawaiian Air. As I am only familiar with metal and rivets on aircraft I wonder how they go about inspecting composite aircraft for fuselage fatigue because AFAIK they are essentially glued together (sort of). I can see some reading in my future just because.
bob
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Debris was found 1,600 ft from the Titanic
OceanGate Expeditions has confirmed the deaths of the five men on the missing Titan submersible, parts of which were discovered today on the ocean floor, 500 meters from the bow of the famous ship they died trying to see.
The landing frame and rear cover of the missing submersible were discovered today by a remote operated submarine in a devastating blow to any hope that the men may still be found alive.
It would mean the sub suffered a crack and imploded under the underwater pressure, instantly killing all five men on board.
CNN reports that the two pieces of debris were found at 12,500ft underwater, 1,600ft from the famous shipwreck's bow
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12223805/Debris-field-discovered-search-area-near-Titanic.html
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News conference has started
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464
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Two separate debris fields found so far. Debris confirmed catastrophic implosion failure of the pressure hull. Families have been notified by the USCG.
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Debris confirmed catastrophic implosion failure of the pressure hull.
Called it.
Four *expletive deleted*ing idiots with more money than brains paid another *expletive deleted*ing idiot with enough hubris to cover the ocean so they could all ride to their death in a tinker toy, wannabe submarine.
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Pressurized airliner cabins:
Air pressure at sea level, 14.7 psi
Air pressure at 30,000 feet, 5.57 psi
Difference is 9.18 psi cycling pressures.
I believe they maintain cabin pressure at about 10,000 feet, or about 10 psi
The pressure hereabouts (Golden CO) is around 12 psi.
A far cry from differential pressure cycling in sea water at the surface and at the Titanic's depth.
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I don't disagree with your post, but since I amateur gunsmith, run vessels at sea, and generally build things I feel like I need to point out in my defense that "should be strong enough" is the back of envelope SWAG step that precedes researching the material, math, and testing, not the last step before hopping in the MF'er and setting sail.
I do the same things (or did, when I was younger and my body hadn't betrayed me). It's one thing to tie a bunch of helium balloons to a lawn chair and go up by yourself. It takes a special kind of hubris to take something that multiple experts say isn't safe, declare that it's actually SO safe they just don't have the methods to test how safe it is, and take paying customers down 2+ miles under water.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/22/titanic-sub-live-updates-search-titan-missing-submarine-submersible-rescue-us-coast-guard-latest-news
An underwater researcher has said the search for the Titan shows the desperate need for more deep-sea technology in the US.
Nick Rotker, from the non-profit research and development company Mitre, said “more robust capability” was needed to be able to cover large areas of ocean.
Rotker said:
The issue is we don’t have a lot of capability or systems that can go to the depth this vessel was going to.
Or ... how about we just don't take paying customers two miles down in experimental pressure vessels?
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I do the same things (or did, when I was younger and my body hadn't betrayed me). It's one thing to tie a bunch of helium balloons to a lawn chair and go up by yourself. It takes a special kind of hubris to take something that multiple experts say isn't safe, declare that it's actually SO safe they just don't the methods to test how safe it is, and take paying customers down 2+ miles under water.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/22/titanic-sub-live-updates-search-titan-missing-submarine-submersible-rescue-us-coast-guard-latest-news
Or ... how about we just don't take paying customers two miles down in experimental pressure vessels?
There is some justice in the fact the CEO went down with it. *expletive deleted*ing sucks he took 4 others with him in the process.
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Called it.
Four *expletive deleted*ing idiots with more money than brains paid another *expletive deleted*ing idiot with enough hubris to cover the ocean so they could all ride to their death in a tinker toy, wannabe submarine.
You and pretty much anyone else with a elementary understanding of water pressure and more than 6 neural pathways still functioning.
bob
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Called it.
Four *expletive deleted*ing idiots with more money than brains paid another *expletive deleted*ing idiot with enough hubris to cover the ocean so they could all ride to their death in a tinker toy, wannabe submarine.
^^^ I concur.
The real mystery is why an expert like Nargeolet was willing to go down in the thing.
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^^^ I concur.
The real mystery is why an expert like Nargeolet was willing to go down in the thing.
Add in a generous serving of hubris.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q9JXAF2uFU
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^^^ I concur.
The real mystery is why an expert like Nargeolet was willing to go down in the thing.
Complacency, it's killed many a great person.
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Can't help but be reminded of this except in this case the builder lived and in fact somehow got rich. But otherwise a very similar story of hubris getting people killed.
How he got experienced test pilots to get into that thing not once but twice is beyond me.
Today we're looking at the Christmas Bullet, one of the most notorious planes every built. It's creator, Dr. William Whitney Christmas, claimed it was the safest and most easy to fly aircraft, when it fact it was a complete deathtrap. Both planes that were built crashed on their first flights, killing both pilots in the process.
Perhaps The Worst Plane Ever Built? | The Christmas Bullet [Aircraft Overview #54]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6akp_kxHJg
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The only other carbon fiber pressure vessel I can recall failing in a spectacularly public way is SpaceX's AMOS-6 static fire, where the COPV on the second stage evidently had a design defect where liquid oxygen could embed between the fibers of the CF overwrap, and the shift/flex of the COPV as it reacted to the insanely hot pressurized helium inside it versus the insanely cold LOX all around it allowed for a carbon-oxygen energetic event which cascaded into an explosion, destroying the rocket and its payload during the static fire.
Are there any other high profile CF structure failures that would give indication to the mechanism of failure here?
I'm curious exactly what these people experienced at the point of failure. Was it like being inside a large grenade, shredded before even knowing it? Cut in half by a high pressure water jet as a crack spread across the hull? Some other method?
Grizzly speculation, but I can't get it out of my mind. Mostly I'm just hoping that they didn't slowly fill with water and drown. Seems like one of the worst ways to go, in my mind. Clawing at each other for the final air pocket in the dark.
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Grizzly speculation, but I can't get it out of my mind. Mostly I'm just hoping that they didn't slowly fill with water and drown. Seems like one of the worst ways to go, in my mind. Clawing at each other for the final air pocket in the dark.
Sub would likely to be in one piece if it was the case that the inside and outside pressures slowly equalized. No, they were more than likely gone, lights out so to speak, before their brains could even start to register something was amiss
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The only other carbon fiber pressure vessel I can recall failing in a spectacularly public way is SpaceX's AMOS-6 static fire, where the COPV on the second stage evidently had a design defect where liquid oxygen could embed between the fibers of the CF overwrap, and the shift/flex of the COPV as it reacted to the insanely hot pressurized helium inside it versus the insanely cold LOX all around it allowed for a carbon-oxygen energetic event which cascaded into an explosion, destroying the rocket and its payload during the static fire.
Are there any other high profile CF structure failures that would give indication to the mechanism of failure here?
I'm curious exactly what these people experienced at the point of failure. Was it like being inside a large grenade, shredded before even knowing it? Cut in half by a high pressure water jet as a crack spread across the hull? Some other method?
Grizzly speculation, but I can't get it out of my mind. Mostly I'm just hoping that they didn't slowly fill with water and drown. Seems like one of the worst ways to go, in my mind. Clawing at each other for the final air pocket in the dark.
Most likely, if they perceived anything, they heard a creak, maybe a crack, and then milliseconds later they were squished to auto ignition temperatures, shredded by debris, and then flung in a thousand different directions.
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I’d guess, if anything in terms of body parts existed, they weren’t any bigger, or more recognizable than a meatball.
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Short of sitting on top of an exploding nuke there's probably no faster way to go.
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Huh. Turns out the ROV that found the debris field was the Odysseus 6K, owned by my first boss with the feds.
https://pelagic-services.com/web2/
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It's republican billionaire Elon Musk fault and an an investigation should be launched.
Yeah.....
"@OccupyDemocrats
BREAKING: Republican billionaire Elon Musk is thrust into another nightmare PR disaster as it's revealed that the missing Titanic submersible company previously praised his satellite communication company Starlink — and said that it would be "relying on" the service to "provide the communications" for the Titanic Expedition. The world lost all communication with the submersible and its crew shortly after it began its journey towards the sunken wreck. A massive search-and-rescue effort is currently underway but prospects look grimmer by the hour. The crew has limited oxygen and cannot exit the craft without outside help. It must be stated that at this point there is no direct indication that Starlink failed or was the cause of this terrifying and possibly tragic incident. That said, given Musk's long history of screwups and reckless dishonesty, an investigation should be launched. RT and if you demand an investigation — and consider investing in Tribel, a “woke” new Twitter competitor that is currently doing a round of equity crowdfunding and just blew past $1.4 million raised from 3,600 of its users. If you want to own a small piece of what is quickly becoming the “next big thing” in social media, here is the link to do so, http://wefunder.com/Tribel. You can invest as little as $100 — or as much as you’d like. Here’s the link to download the new Tribel app that Elon Musk is so afraid of: http://tribel.app.link/okwPIHYCIqb"
Excuse me while go found something stronger to put in my morning coffee
@OccupyDemocrats get rightfully dragged for ghoulish attempt to tie Elon Musk to missing Titanic sub
https://twitchy.com/amy/2023/06/20/occupydemocrats-gets-community-noted-for-ridiculous-attempt-to-tie-elon-musk-to-missing-submersible-n2384685
Snopes decided to get involved
And after someone points out the flaws in the above enter Elon and guess who won that fight.
Hint, it wasn't Snopes
Community Notes & Elon Musk vs. Snopes (guess which one backpedaled)
https://twitchy.com/dougp/2023/06/22/community-notes-vs-snopes-guess-which-one-backpedaled-n2384739
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Typical rich tourists.
Visit a historic site, and leave a lot of litter behind.
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Is it too soon to post memes?
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Brief explanation of what happens inside an imploding submersible. No idea if the scenario is accurate.
https://twitter.com/OliLondonTV/status/1671951053753909255
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So a Darwin award for the owner?
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Nah, go ahead. Love to see them.
Holy crap, somebody else pointed out the Diesel effect? Imagine that.
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/7c89fe2bd47d8b77fd52ef07af253f2b.jpg)
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/FB_IMG_1687424918211.jpg)
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/edaf10aaafe1911c6e95116802463624.jpg)
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/8ed3fdbc8838be8699df520f61b01ca6.jpg)
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(https://i.imgflip.com/7q2tvl.jpg)
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(https://i.imgflip.com/7pzzn7.jpg)
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(https://thunderdungeon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/missing-titanic-sub-memes-7-6-22-2023.jpg)
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One more for now
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Titan-meme-1.jpeg)
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Back to serious mode
I was wondering if something like this was going to turn up.
US Navy 'detected implosion noise'
The US Navy detected “an acoustic anomaly consistent with an implosion” shortly after the Titan lost contact with the surface, an official has told CBS News, the BBC's US partner.
The information was relayed to the US Coast Guard, which used it to narrow the radius of its search, the official added.
The banging that was reported earlier is now thought to have been coming from other ships in the area, CBS reports.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6494c58a523d5b126170823b%26US%20Navy%20%27detected%20implosion%20noise%27%262023-06-22T22%3A06%3A23.693Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:83766001-8c25-4aa7-bd50-d1f7cf7c9411&pinned_post_asset_id=6494c58a523d5b126170823b&pinned_post_type=share
So that pretty much proves the sub imploded shortly after the last 15min ping around 10am EST Sunday
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^^^I wonder if the SOSUS network picked up the sound.
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^^^I wonder if the SOSUS network picked up the sound.
I would be surprised if it didn't
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Amazon has begun moderating the reviews section of the now infamous games controller used to control the missing Titan sub.
As news of the missing sub spread earlier this week, bad taste reviews began to appear on the shopping giant’s page for the Logitech F710 controller.
Users posted about the controller "not being good at steering a submarine" and "losing signal in the ocean".
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6494bafcf2e5745fd8a78362%26Amazon%20is%20moderating%20bad%20taste%20reviews%20of%20game%20controller%20used%20in%20Titan%20sub%262023-06-22T22%3A53%3A15.829Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:5edecc6d-05b0-4c42-84f5-65c7ffaaca7e&pinned_post_asset_id=6494bafcf2e5745fd8a78362&pinned_post_type=share
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^^^I wonder if the SOSUS network picked up the sound.
A lot of the SOSUS network has been shut down. I know that Keflavik and Bermuda have been shut down, the Northern California SOSUS is mainly civilian with a ocean mammal listening project.
Now days it is called IUSS, https://www.csp.navy.mil/cus/About-IUSS/ , and while it may still use some of the SOSUS array there are a few other methods they use.
With that being said you can probably bet your house that the sound of the implosion was picked up by them, it just took a day or so to analyze it.
bob
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More on that from CNN
The US Navy detected an acoustic signature consistent with an implosion on Sunday in the general area where the Titanic-bound submersible was diving when it lost communication with its mother ship, a senior Navy official told CNN Thursday.
The Navy then immediately relayed that information to the on-scene commanders leading the search effort, and it was used to narrow down the area of the search, the official said.
But the sound of the implosion was determined to be “not definitive,” the official said, and the multinational efforts to find the submersible continued as a search and rescue effort. “Any chance of saving a life is worth continuing the mission,” the official said. The Wall Street Journal was first to report about the acoustic signature picked up by the Navy.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/22/us/submersible-titanic-oceangate-search-thursday/index.html
So they waited for proof the sub imploded before definitively concluding what they heard was actually the sound of the sub imploding.
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/FzHRki5aMAEr-0i.jpg)
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More on that from CNN
https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/22/us/submersible-titanic-oceangate-search-thursday/index.html
So they waited for proof the sub imploded before definitively concluding what they heard was actually the sound of the sub imploding.
Or they knew and they directed the searchers into the correct area hoping it would be found sooner rather than later and they would not have to divulge just how they heard the implosion or how far away.
bob
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Or they knew and they directed the searchers into the correct area hoping it would be found sooner rather than later and they would not have to divulge just how they heard the implosion or how far away.
bob
Then turn around and divulge it anyway?
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I'm glad people are skeptical of the news, but I don't buy the idea "they" are just trying to distract us from some other news story. It's not every day a couple of billionaires die in a submersible accident, while diving to look at the Titanic. That would be a big story, regardless.
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Then divulge it anyway?
They didn't divulge anything in the way of specifics. It sounded like a general "we heard something, look here while we analyze". At least that is how I take it.
bob
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NASA has distanced itself from claims by OceanGate that it was involved in the development of the Titan submersible.
The agency said it only carried out remote consultations with the company which built and deployed Titan, and 'did not provide any approvals for the project'.
A NASA spokesman clarified its role after OceanGate and its CEO, Stockton Rush, made several claims about how it '[worked] with NASA' and used the agency's logo in some of its promotional material.
Boeing and the University of Washington have also denied any involvement in the design of the missing Titanic tourist submersible - despite OceanGate saying they played a part.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12224091/NASA-says-did-NOT-help-manufacture-test-Titan-sub.html
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/sub.jpg)
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(https://i.ibb.co/hWWqYDG/IMG-6198.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/6DkT4J0/IMG-6181.jpg)
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Scott Manley doing a live Q&A on this
Note: He's drinking and maybe a little drunk :rofl:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdz9vcSFBqw
Edit: No maybe about it :rofl: :rofl:
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzRB7-qWcAIxJZO?format=jpg&name=900x900)
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^ You're a baaaad little boy, Angel Eyes. =D
AZRedhawk44:
"...carbon-oxygen energetic event..."\
Like
WLJ:
"Sub would likely to be in one piece if it was the case that the inside and outside pressures slowly equalized. No, they were more than likely gone, lights out so to speak, before their brains could even start to register something was amiss."
[Like the firefighters in the Beirut AN eplosion. Switch off. Fire Chief later commented they would never be found.]
One of my main concerns was the conditions if they lived for days after losimg comms. I was frankly relieved that it was sudden.
(The "Round Trip Ticket" one was the topper.)
Thanks ! Needed a grin or two after all this.
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Titanic is about 12,500 feet deep.
Pressure at that depth is roughly 5,500 psi. As others have said, hull failure at that pressure would have been instant death.
There's some old video, probably from the 1930s, of testing of a deep sea tethered bathysphere.
It leaked and filled with water (no one was aboard, apparently).
AH! Here we go, an account of it from Wikipedia...
"When conducting an unmanned test of the Bathysphere with the third window installed, they found it almost entirely full of water. Realizing the immense pressure that the Bathysphere must be under, Beebe ordered his crew to stand clear and began loosening the hatch's bolts to remove the hatch himself.[2] Beebe described the experience that followed this in his book Half Mile Down:
Suddenly, without the slightest warning, the bolt was torn from our hands, and the mass of heavy metal shot across the deck like the shell from a gun. The trajectory was almost straight, and the brass bolt hurtled into the steel winch thirty feet [9.1 m] away across the deck and sheared a half-inch [13 mm] notch gouged out by the harder metal. This was followed by a solid cylinder of water, which slackened after a while into a cataract, pouring out the hole in the door, some air mingled with the water, looking like hot steam, instead of compressed air shooting through ice-cold water.[6]
After replacing the third window with the steel plug and conducting another unmanned test, the same problem happened again.[2] Beebe later described what would have happened to him and Barton had they been inside the sphere on a dive during which it leaked. They would not have had time to drown: due to the immense pressure, "the first few drops of water would have shot through flesh and bone like steel bullets."[8]"
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So even a small leak at depth would be squirting into the sub with a stream somewhat more powerful than from your average gasoline pressure washer from Home Depot.
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So even a small leak at depth would be squirting into the sub with a stream somewhat more powerful than from your average gasoline pressure washer from Home Depot.
More like a water jet cutter.
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Now that the whole news charade about "they're alive and only have hours of air left" is done, the MSM is going into, "the chances of recovering the bodies" mode. ;/
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Dead horse beating time?
Similar in many respects... scroll to "Sinking"and capture text as evidence of future "editing." Apparently the Navy has "unlinked" some material on its thresher sites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Thresher_(SSN-593)
Not that I'm paranoid, but.
And as I recall, the sound of the Thresher's collapse was picked up.
Just saying, seek what parallels ye can seek.
Terry, 230RN
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Now that the whole news charade about "they're alive and only have hours of air left" is done, the MSM is going into, "the chances of recovering the bodies" mode. ;/
Well, holding out hope isn't such a bad thing, especially when there was no concrete evidence of what happened.
Would you rather have had them splashing "THEY'RE *expletive deleted*ing DEAD! ABSOLUTELY, COMPLETELY DEAD! NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!" headlines on Sunday evening?
As for body recovery... Yeah, how to do you recover pulverized goo? That's likely what happened when the sub broke up.
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^
Did somebody mention "meatball-sized chunks" somewhat up above?
I'm thinking of the guy who committed suicide by up-close shooting 200lb of Tannerite right by his feet. The coroner described the body as "severely fragmented." Talk about "switch off."
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"Did somebody mention "meatball-sized chunks" up above?"
Great... Now I'm hungry for Italian...
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"Did somebody mention "meatball-sized chunks" up above?"
Great... Now I'm hungry for Italian...
I think you mean beef kofta curry.
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Actually, I'd be kind of surprised if there were anything really chunky in the remains at all. 5,500 PSI hitting essentially instantly would be like being caught in the plates of the world's most powerful arbor press. And the force wouldn't be applied gradually, it would be almost instant.
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“Things that aren’t Instant Pots becoming Instant Pots”
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So even a small leak at depth would be squirting into the sub with a stream somewhat more powerful than from your average gasoline pressure washer from Home Depot.
More like a water jet cutter.
And that's why there's no such thing as a small leak at those depths. Any leak, even the tiniest one, will start to cut the hull open in an instant.
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"And that's why there's no such thing as a small leak at those depths. Any leak, even the tiniest one, will start to cut the hull open in an instant."
If there even was a leak. Given what I've been hearing about the sub, I'm betting it was just an immediate catastrophic collapse.
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"And that's why there's no such thing as a small leak at those depths. Any leak, even the tiniest one, will start to cut the hull open in an instant."
If there even was a leak. Given what I've been hearing about the sub, I'm betting it was just an immediate catastrophic collapse.
Yep
In the Scott Manley video above he calculated the force that hit them inside the sub equivalent to around 50kg of TNT
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accidentally posted. Meant to PM.
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More like a water jet cutter.
No where near a WaterJet. Like literally an order of magnitude less. Waterjet's run at 60,000 to 90,000 psi, and often have abrasive added to help the cut.
So even a small leak at depth would be squirting into the sub with a stream somewhat more powerful than from your average gasoline pressure washer from Home Depot.
Kinda depends on where in the water column they were. If we go with the "happened an hour and a half into the descent" then yeah, roughly. If it happened on the bottom at 400 atm, then like twice the pressure of your gas pressure washer.
But as we discussed several pages ago, a leak is not what happened here. A leak, and a pressure hull failure are two very very different things. A leak is bad, but you have some time to get it stopped* before the added weight of the water overcomes the reserve buoyancy of the craft and you are stuck sinking. How much time depends on the leak, but some time. An implosion (especially with a relatively brittle material like carbon composite) you are unlikely to even know is happening.
*on a normal, well designed sub anyways. This one didn't seem to have a lot of damage control supplies or risk mitigation in it's design. If they started leaking their only hope would have been to dump everything dumpable and run for the landing barge before she got too heavy.
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Media: Are you going to recover the bodies?
The Adm at the press conference: I'm just going to pretend they didn't ask me that.
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They may poke around for a bit but I highly doubt there's anything to recover that would be useful in an investigation.
Bodies? What Bodies?
So what's left? Oh yeah, Let the finger pointing and law suits begin!
Netflix is probably already casting black and trans actors to portray the passengers and a Trump look-alike for the CEO for their latest based on a true story movie
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(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Missing-Titanic-Submarine-Memes-4-1.jpg)
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How about decompression instead of compression?
This may be of some interest here if you want to know what happened when some deep sea divers accidentally rapidly decompressed in a decompression chamber. [barf]
They really don't go into too much detail but those with weak stomachs may want to avoid.
Sure there more detailed articles on the internet but this should suffice for most.
Byford Dolphin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byford_Dolphin
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Netflix is probably already casting black and trans actors to portray the passengers and a Trump look-alike for the CEO for their latest based on a true story movie
See Reply #238
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This may be of some interest here if you want to know what happened when some deep sea divers accidentally rapidly decompressed in a decompression chamber. [barf]
They really don't go into too much detail but those with weak stomachs may want to avoid.
Sure there more detailed articles on the internet but this should suffice for most.
Byford Dolphin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byford_Dolphin
Yeah, that was bad. Read about it a couple years ago. Essentially instant mincemeat from gas expansion in their own body fluids. Gasses rushing out of the chamber throat just served to more widely distribute what was left of the poor bastard nearest the door.
Brad
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https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2023-06-22/titanic-james-cameron-titan-submersible-deaths-oceangate-submarine
Uh oh.
“This OceanGate sub had sensors on the inside of a hull to give them a warning when it was starting to crack,” he told ABC News. “And I think if that’s your idea of safety, then you’re doing it wrong. They probably had warning that their hull was starting to delaminate, starting to crack. ... [W]e understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency.”
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Now that the whole news charade about "they're alive and only have hours of air left" is done, the MSM is going into, "the chances of recovering the bodies" mode. ;/
Zilch.
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https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2023-06-22/titanic-james-cameron-titan-submersible-deaths-oceangate-submarine
Uh oh.
“This OceanGate sub had sensors on the inside of a hull to give them a warning when it was starting to crack,” he told ABC News. “And I think if that’s your idea of safety, then you’re doing it wrong. They probably had warning that their hull was starting to delaminate, starting to crack. ... [W]e understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency.”
Scott Manley brought that up last night and asked
What kind of warning does it give you? 5 seconds? 1 second? Once it starts cracking that's it, you're dead. (Can't remember his exact wording but that was the gist of it)
"[W]e understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency.”"
Somebody pulled that out of their arse
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Scott Manley brought that up last night and asked
What kind of warning does it give you? 5 seconds? 1 second? Uh, yeah, you're screwed. Once it starts cracking that it, you're dead.(Can't remember his exact wording but that was the gist of it)
"[W]e understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency.”"
Somebody pulled that out of their arse
I don’t see how they can know that unless there were comms beyond the pings.
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I don’t see how they can know that unless there were comms beyond the pings.
Unless there's info about the comms they haven't told us there's no way to know. The only people who would know without such info are, well, no longer with us right now and I don't think this thing had any kind of blackbox.
I'm sure there's going to be some [tinfoil] floating around on this if not already.
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Hubris vs the sea. Guess which one has the perfect winning track record.
In the messages, Rush expresses frustration with the criticism of Titan's safety measures, writing in one email: "We have heard the baseless cries of 'you are going to kill someone' way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult."
What do you think now? Oh wait...
OceanGate CEO dismissed safety warnings as 'baseless cries'
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6495c2a2523d5b126170836f%26OceanGate%20CEO%20dismissed%20safety%20warnings%20as%20%27baseless%20cries%27%262023-06-23T16%3A08%3A28.027Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:67457690-4ebd-4824-afaa-15e21af63229&pinned_post_asset_id=6495c2a2523d5b126170836f&pinned_post_type=share
I'm just upset he took 4 others with him :mad:
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More on that liability waiver
A liability waiver drawn up by OceanGate asked customers to assume 'full responsibility' for the risk of death - even if the company was negligent, it has emerged.
The 'release of liability' agreement, drawn up in April 2022, repeatedly mentions the risk of death by travelling in the company's submersibles.
'I hereby assume full responsibility for the risk of bodily injury, disability, death, and property damage due to the negligence of any Released Party while involved in the operation,' the document states.
Released Parties include OceanGate, its staff and other members of the expedition.
More info and copies of the liability waiver at the link
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12226909/OceanGate-liability-waiver-asks-customers-responsibility-company-negligent.html
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"You're remembered for the rules you break"
https://twitter.com/stonking/status/1671945151961333784?s=20
Well, He's not wrong........
Any bubblehead want to chime in on making a pressure hull of different materials? One would have to account for the differing compression coefficients at the joints, yes? Some kind of strong but flexible joint? Or just pray the difference isn't more than the elasticity of your hull material?
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^^^I was going to say that generally speaking, liability waivers are not worth the paper they are printed on in Washington state, except for some narrow circumstances. I note that Oceangate is right here in Snohomish County, which means they are subject to the jurisdiction of either the Snohomish County Superior Court, or the Federal District Court for the Western District of Washington down in Seattle. So I would not pin my hopes on a waiver in either of those two courts. To the extent they are enforceable, the typical waiver would apply in terms of the award of damages, but does not prevent a suit from being filed. So you still have the costs of defending a suit. If liability waivers worked up here, I would have every single patient sign one as a condition of medical treatment, but I don't.
However, I see from the UK newspaper article that Oceangate has a corporate presence in the Bahamas, and the waiver expressly provides that any disputes or court cases related to the waiver will be held in the Bahamas. So I will be interested to learn how this plays out.
One way or the other, I predict a lot of legal fees in the future for Oceangate, and once they run through their corporate insurance, bankruptcy should soon follow.
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So even a small leak at depth would be squirting into the sub with a stream somewhat more powerful than from your average gasoline pressure washer from Home Depot.
https://www.machinemfg.com › waterjet-cutting-guide
"Waterjet Cutting: The Ultimate Guide for Precision Cutting
May 23, 2023 UHP water cutting, also known as waterjet or water jets, is a high-energy (380MP ) water flow generated by multi-stage pressurization of ordinary water. This water is then expelled at a speed of nearly 1,000 meters per second through a highly precise ruby nozzle (Φ0.1-0.35mm), making it a highly efficient cutting method."
https://www.unitconverters.net/pressure/megapascal-to-psi.htm
https://youtu.be/FXk76rWYdEs (3:50)
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More on that
"[W]e understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency.”"
They left off three words in the above article.
Cameron said: 'The way it fails is it delaminates. You have to have a hull, a pressure hull, made out of a contiguous material like steel, or like titanium, which is the proven standard.'
'This OceanGate sub had sensors on the inside of the hull to give them a warning when it was starting to crack. And I think if that's your idea of safety, then you're doing it wrong. And they probably had warning that their hull was starting to delaminate, and it started to crack...
'It's our belief we understand from inside the community that they had dropped their ascent weights and they were coming up, trying to manage an emergency.'
In other words a wild ass guess that IF they had known the hull was failing they MAYBE COULD HAVE dropped the weights and the media is running with it.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12227555/Titanic-director-James-Cameron-reveals-Titan-subs-Achilles-heel.html
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https://twitter.com/greg16676935420/status/1672073240850604034
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https://twitter.com/greg16676935420/status/1672073240850604034
Actually a real thing
Inventors Transform Propane Tanks Into a Working Submarine
https://www.techeblog.com/propane-tank-submarine/
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That'll be a hard "NO" from me, dog.
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Video
Used Propane Tank Becomes Submarine | Outrageous Acts of Science
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cTDlOfl3B8&t=8s
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That'll be a hard "NO" from me, dog.
It'll be fine
--Stockton Rush
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Video
Used Propane Tank Becomes Submarine | Outrageous Acts of Science
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cTDlOfl3B8&t=8s
^ Those walls are under tension, where forces tend to spread out and equalize. Under pressure, any anomalies tend to concentrate, resulting in failure.
In vacuum labs, flexible pressure lines are thinly walled, while vacuum line walls are very thick. This is, incidentally why the hoses on your vacuum cleaner are ribbed... for the extra compressive strength.
Think of the thin walls of a soda bottle holding in that pressure, versus what happens if you suck even a little air out of it. It starts to collapse right away.
Terry, 230RN
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Think of the thin walls of a soda bottle holding in that pressure, versus what happens if you suck even a little air out of it. It starts to collapse right away.
So you're saying we shouldn't build a deep dive submersible from soda bottles.
But wait! What if we reinforce the plastic by wrapping it with carbon filament? That ought'a work, oughtn't it?
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So you're saying we shouldn't build a deep dive submersible from soda bottles.
But wait! What if we reinforce the plastic by wrapping it with carbon filament? That ought'a work, oughtn't it?
I should have a game controller here somewhere.
Titanic here we come!
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzRm6XlaQAUxvA4?format=jpg&name=medium)
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So you're saying we shouldn't build a deep dive submersible from soda bottles.
But wait! What if we reinforce the plastic by wrapping it with carbon filament? That ought'a work, oughtn't it?
1. That's correct. With the provisio;n that you get the lesson you can learn from your vacuum cleaner hose.
2. Yes, but only trust it for five test dives at 20% deeper than desired depth and then one real dive, then scrap it. Hawkmoon may recommend 30% deeper.
Pressure vessels and vacuum vessels (which the Titan sub was, compared to the external water pressure) are specced differently. Viz the soda bottle example.
Terry, 230RN
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This is, incidentally why the hoses on your vacuum cleaner are ribbed... for the extra compressive strength.
SO, "ribbed for her pleasure" doesn't apply here then?
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What was long and hard and full of seamen then it blew up all over the place?
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https://twitter.com/rickthetank/status/1672389287130562561
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzRVMWlXgAAGZPO?format=jpg&name=small)
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^^^^^
But were they inspired?
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzVXuEHXwAIj_97?format=jpg&name=small)
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I think by "inspired," he meant "yes-men."
Men not quite old enough to have acquired self-assurance in their competence and the balls to say no.
"Hey, JB, that's a great idea. Let's run with it," the syncopathic underling said, fearing failure and feigning fervency.
Terry, 230RN
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This Obama idiot:
https://www.foxnews.com/media/obama-calls-obscene-inequality-news-coverage-oceangate-sub-tragedy-sinking-migrant-ship
I'm pretty sure that if it were "700 dead immigrants in Greece" or, "Trump ordered an extra large fries with his Big Mac", the US MSM would be cover Trump.
Something like "people trapped in a submarine with 40 hours of air" will always naturally trump other news, especially foreign news.
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https://www.reuters.com/world/titanic-sub-victims-families-could-still-sue-despite-liability-waivers-2023-06-22/
https://fortune.com/2023/06/23/titan-submersible-oceangate-liability-waivers-passengers/
https://www.businessinsider.com/oceangate-done-could-still-get-sued-despite-waivers-says-lawyer-2023-6
You can still expect the lawsuits, but actually collecting on any judgments, given that the Oceangate insurance will run out and they have little in the way of assets, may be the trick. If I was plaintiff counsel, I would look to also sue as many parts and materials suppliers as I could find, as potential deep pockets.
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(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/610/017/2d3.jpg)
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If I was plaintiff counsel, I would look to also sue as many parts and materials suppliers as I could find, as potential deep pockets.
I'm hoping that will fail, as that's a really bad precedent (in my IANAL opinion) for things like suing gun manufacturers for shootings.
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If I was plaintiff counsel, I would look to also sue as many parts and materials suppliers as I could find, as potential deep pockets.
I'm hoping that will fail, as that's a really bad precedent (in my IANAL opinion) for things like suing gun manufacturers for shootings.
If they could prove the materials supplied were defective or otherwise substandard. But good luck with that since the evidence, particularly the CF hull, is in 10x10^30 pieces 2 1/2 miles down with much of it scattered by the currents and the owner/builder is strawberry jam.
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https://www.reuters.com/world/titanic-sub-victims-families-could-still-sue-despite-liability-waivers-2023-06-22/
https://fortune.com/2023/06/23/titan-submersible-oceangate-liability-waivers-passengers/
https://www.businessinsider.com/oceangate-done-could-still-get-sued-despite-waivers-says-lawyer-2023-6
You can still expect the lawsuits, but actually collecting on any judgments, given that the Oceangate insurance will run out and they have little in the way of assets, may be the trick. If I was plaintiff counsel, I would look to also sue as many parts and materials suppliers as I could find, as potential deep pockets.
I was wondering about the financial aspect of a suit since there didn't seem to be much left to sue for.
"If I was plaintiff counsel, I would look to also sue as many parts and materials suppliers as I could find, as potential deep pockets."
Isn't that like something we, the firearms community, are dead set against? I.e., suing gun and ammunition manufacturers for the actions of their customers?
But I guess one can sue anybody for anything nowadays, so...
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If UW, Boeing or NASA gave any kind of “approval” for the design I’d guess they’ll become defendants in the suits.
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If UW, Boeing or NASA gave any kind of “approval” for the design I’d guess they’ll become defendants in the suits.
How deep are Logitech's pockets? After all, they made the controller used to steer the sub.
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If they could prove the materials supplied were defective or otherwise substandard. But good luck with that since the evidence, particularly the CF hull, is in 10x10^30 pieces 2 1/2 miles down with much of it scattered by the currents and the owner/builder is strawberry jam.
The way I see it is a misuse of the materials. To continue the gun analogy, it would be like suing Savage because you shot 5.56 in a .223. Or perhaps more similar to this case, where it seems standard engineering safety protocols weren't followed, it would be like shooting reloaded ammo that was 25% over the max powder specification in all the manuals, then suing the gun or brass manufacturer because they failed to handle the load.
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A better firearms-related analogy would be your custom revolver blows up in your face, rendering you blind. The gunsmith has insufficient insurance or assets to pay for your injuries. Your lawyer, seeking only to make you whole, also sues Pine Tree Castings, a supplier to the revolver maker, to add them as a potential deep pocket. If your lawyer can establish that Pine Tree Castings was negligent in the design of the part or shipped a defective part, you can collect on that. The concept of moving up and down the supply chain looking for potential defendants in product liability or personal injury lawsuits caused by an object is not new.
Edited to add: I almost forgot, it was so long ago. But when I first started working for the lawfirm back in the 80's, they were the lead Washington state defense counsel for the asbestos mesothelioma cases. There were many such cases in Washington, and almost all of them were men who worked in the Puget Sound shipyards around the WWII era and were exposed to asbestos lagging/insulation products on board civilian and Naval vessels. Everyone from the asbestos mines, to the processors, to the distributors, to the lagging/insulation companies and other companies in the supply chain were defendants in those cases. I never really worked on those cases but I did do some legal and medical research on the issue of smoking and mesothelioma. It turns out that smoking and asbestos exposure increases your chance of developing mesothelioma. And almost all the plaintiffs were middle-aged to elderly men who all smoked like chimneys, including while they were working with asbestos products. So trying to figure out how did your smoking contribute to your mesothelioma was a big part of those cases.
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Your lawyer, seeking only to make you whole …
=)
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I'm sure there will be lawsuits, because that's what people do these days -- sue. Whether the lawsuits will get any traction is a different matter. I'm sure OceanGate is a corporation, so it could be interesting to see if the lawyers try to "pierce the corporate veil" and go after Rush's personal estate, or some of the other OceanGate employees and suppliers.
They'll have an uphill climb. It has already come out that multiple sources with expertise in submersible design and construction told Rush that his design was dangerous, and he dismissed their concerns as being unfounded. Any defense will probably start with the guy Rush fired in 2018 for having the audacity to suggest that they should have the hull tested.
Just found an article in which the guy who was scheduled to go on this dive -- with his son -- and who backed out says that Rush told him the trip was safer than crossing the street. As I said early on, it ultimately comes down to hubris. Rush obviously believed his toy was safe, but his fervent belief basically made him blind to reality.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/8440488/oceangate-stockton-rush-titan-sub-safe-half-price-tickets/
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzRm6XlaQAUxvA4?format=jpg&name=medium)
Links is a URL, not an IMG.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzRm6XlaQAUxvA4?format=jpg&name=medium (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzRm6XlaQAUxvA4?format=jpg&name=medium)
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzRVMWlXgAAGZPO?format=jpg&name=small (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzRVMWlXgAAGZPO?format=jpg&name=small)
FIFY.
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzVXuEHXwAIj_97?format=jpg&name=small (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzVXuEHXwAIj_97?format=jpg&name=small)
:facepalm: FIFY.
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Links is a URL, not an IMG.
I seem to recall you having issues viewing images before and I recall asking what you browser and settings were but don't think you ever answered. And why are your posts always in an odd font?
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Yeah, there is nothing to fix in those two posts. They both display properly.
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Yeah, there is nothing to fix in those two posts. They both display properly.
I'm thinking he might be using an old way out of date browser
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I'm thinking he might be using an old way out of date browser
Hey man, Mosaic is the bomb.
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Hey man, Mosaic is the bomb.
Thought it died 65 million years ago
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:facepalm: FIFY.
Fixed what? There was nothing broken about either of the posts you "fixed."
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As I read more articles and watch more videos, I'm seeing multiple statements that the Triton had dropped its ballast weights and was ascending.
How could anyone know this? They had lost contact with the surface. Where is his "information" coming from?
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As I read more articles and watch more videos, I'm seeing multiple statements that the Triton had dropped its ballast weights and was ascending.
How could anyone know this? They had lost contact with the surface. Where is his "information" coming from?
See reply 272
James Cameron unless he knows something that hasn't been released publicly basically pulled that little tidbit out of his arse. And since no one dares questions James Cameron, aka the submariner god, it must be true. Now if someone said it before him I don't know.
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See reply 272
James Cameron unless he knows something that hasn't been released publicly basically pulled that little tidbit out of his arse. And since no one dares questions James Cameron, aka the submariner god, it must be true. Now if someone said it before him I don't know.
I will go with pulling it from his arse for 1000, host of the day.
Now he is saying the composite was most likely what failed. That is a good educated guess along with the Harboer Freight sourced viewing port. I mentioned he really had no way of knowing what happened on another board and you would have thought I called the Pope a devil worshiper. I reiterated, while Saint James C (Lord of the undersea realm) might be able to make some good, even educated guesses he has no idea what happened or what they were doing because he just wasn't there to experience the full glory of incineration with the other blobs of fat. Holy Moly, some people just have no sense of humor. =D >:D
bob
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I seem to recall you having issues viewing images before and I recall asking what you browser and settings were but don't think you ever answered. And why are your posts always in an odd font?
<counter-gripe>
I didn't "get" your Reply # 281 and just assumed either I was too stupid or the poster made the unwarranted assumption that everybody else in the world was a mind reader.
I ran out of my Mind Reader Rx about a year ago and I now ignore any obtuse or obscure posts on the theory they weren't worth "getting" anyway if I was too stupid to "dig" it or I needed to renew my mind reader Rx to "get" them.
</counter-gripe>
But then again, I ain;t perfekt neither.
Terry, 230RN
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<counter-gripe>
I didn't "get" your Reply # 281 and just assumed either I was too stupid or the poster made the unwarranted assumption that everybody else in the world was a mind reader.
I ran out of my Mind Reader Rx about a year ago and I now ignore any obtuse or obscure posts on the theory they weren't worth "getting" anyway if I was too stupid to "dig" it or I needed to renew my mind reader Rx to "get" them.
</counter-gripe>
But then again, I ain;t perfekt neither.
Terry, 230RN
Had to go back and look.
Okay meme is two* famous billionaires that many dislike being poked to go visit the the Titanic. If you didn't already know who the two were and perhaps disliked them already then the meme won't be funny for you anyway. That's the way many jokes work. If it needs explaining it's not going be funny to you anyway. But nothing stops someone from asking. I do all the time if I don't get a joke. Like many movie references that are dropped here. I haven't seen all movies so many i don't get but I ask or roll with it.
*Bill Gates and George Soros BTW
This is before coffee, time for coffee.
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^ OK. Acknowledged as received.
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Another version of that meme I've seen had Musk and Bezos
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^ Thanks for the additional example. :eyeroll: :LOL: :sarcasm-dripping:
:laugh: ;)
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Basically insert the people you don't like type meme.
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Behind a paywall, but the WSJ talks about how SOSUS, or the successor systems, picked up the implosion:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/titanic-titan-implosion-secret-military-technology-8c020e7b
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A really good summary of the incident including hard numerical data and hard engineering.
This guy is really good.
https://youtu.be/TKLamhyJ6bE (21:30 and worth it)
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(https://i.imgur.com/5o5tLKxl.jpg)
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What happens during a deep-sea implosion...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/what-happens-to-the-body-during-an-implosion/ar-AA1d3TYH?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=bc90d5c6cc334b7a86aec3f597c09f69&ei=18
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What happens during a deep-sea implosion...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/what-happens-to-the-body-during-an-implosion/ar-AA1d3TYH?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=bc90d5c6cc334b7a86aec3f597c09f69&ei=18
That article is riddled with inaccurate information. I'd like the 5 min of my life back please.
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Mmmmmmm....
No.
In a wide sense it seems to be accurate enough.
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Mmmmmmm....
No.
In a wide sense it seems to be accurate enough.
Agreed. With the enormous pressure differential (remember, from a relative point of view, the sub contained an absolute vacuum), the sheer violence of that implosion could have, and probably did have, the effects noted. Note the same thing happened with the USS Thresher implosion incident at a lesser depth and its hard metal fragments were scattered over a wide area. Remember my picture tube implosion video, and the pressure differential there was only one atmosphere, 14.7 psi.
When you look at it from a ballistic or explosion viewpoint, every square inch of surface of the sub was propelled inward under, to repeat myself, an enormous force.
To review for the rest of the class, here's how pressure versus area works. Consider the 230 grain .45 ACP bullet, which has a rear surface area of .16 square inches by pi x radius2. Assuming a nominal 25,000 psi of powder pressure, it is propelled out the barrel under nominally ~4000 pounds of force (.16 X 25000) from the burning powder, resulting in a velocity of nominally 850 feet per second. That's how pressure versus area works.
Not that you personally don't understand that, but I think the extraordinary far-fetched magnitude of those submarine events can escape attention.
It's like when it is said that there is no tensile strength involved when a meteoroid hits the moon.
"Huh, say whut?"
The sheer enormity of the collision at those velocities essentially leaves tensile strength out of the picture. It doesn't matter whether the meteoroid is a hard diamond or squishy silly putty. Both will make a brilliant flash from the sudden conversion of kinetic energy to heat energy and make lookalike craters.
Terry, 230RN
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Mmmmmmm....
No.
In a wide sense it seems to be accurate enough.
Mmmmmmm.....
Yes.
It says you'll get decompression sickness if you go lower than 130ft. that's not what does iit, and you can get it easily at SCUBA Depths.
It says "Sunlight cuts out at 656 ft or 21psi" 200M is the zone at which there's enough sunlight to support plant life, not where sunlight cuts out. There can be dicernable blue light much deeper. And 200m is 21 atm not psi.
Comparing bite pressure to all around atmospheric pressure is retarded. It isn't even a good context clue, because there's not a ton of people out there going "I remember the pressure when that Great White shark bit me, so that's how much they had!"
They talked about the Mythbusters episode with the meat guy, and called it an implosion, which it was not, and then said the meat went into the helmet when his suit depressurized, which is the exact opposite of the truth.
The only descriptive part they got right was that it was quick.
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The mmmmm no was no, you can't have your 5 minutes back.
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Price per minute back is $1 million per minute.
I accept cash or gold only.
No guarantees or refunds.
Not responsible for Grandfather Paradoxes.
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The mmmmm no was no, you can't have your 5 minutes back.
Ima need to talk to your manager. =D
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(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Rx8AAOSwih9hq~2Z/s-l1600.jpg)
He says no.
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From time travel back to the depths
There was some question on the method used to drop the emergency weights on the Titan
Says the weights and even the skid could be dropped by use of a hydraulic lever
Interview is before they found the debris field.
A former passenger on one of Titan's maiden voyages says he ultimately "decided to back off" from the Titanic dive project as he "couldn't get comfortable with the design".
Speaking to Sky News, US explorer Josh Gates described how there were system errors during his journey on the submersible in a "shakedown dive" in 2021.
Missing Sub: Former Titan passenger 'couldn't get comfortable with design'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7gy3Sk1c6g
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(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Rx8AAOSwih9hq~2Z/s-l1600.jpg)
He says no.
His girl friend agrees.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/395/32465264195_7fd9e02a93_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RsQXYp)
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His girl friend agrees.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/395/32465264195_7fd9e02a93_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RsQXYp)
Sure that's a girl and not a Bud Light drinker?
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Just realized something else about that sub that gives me pause and dropping the skid made me think of it.
The mothership didn't have a crane for lifting the sub back up on board and instead the sub relied on a submersible barge(?) to lift it above the surface that the sub had to maneuver over first. What happens if they lost power or otherwise lost control? There's no top hatch instead someone from the outside had to unbolt the front cover. Are they screwed even if they made it to the surface?
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/133E/production/_130162940_aed64a80df6424f017a2bf33ac1f58776088ecae0_0_3333_22921000x688.jpg)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRYD3ynwwdilGjvaUcHOFipNq95vGagDMn7JA&usqp=CAU)
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Just realized something else about that sub that gives me pause and dropping the skid made me think of it.
The mothership didn't have a crane for lifting the sub back up on board and instead the sub relied on a submersible barge(?) to lift it above the surface that the sub had to maneuver over first. What happens if they lost power or otherwise lost control? There's no top hatch instead someone from the outside had to unbolt the front cover. Are they screwed even if they made it to the surface?
Had the not imploded, if they surfaced and the “barge” isn’t close by and nobody is available to unbolt the hatch, yes.
They should have had explosive bolts that could be fired from the inside, even in the absence of primary ship power. That wouldn’t have helped them in this case of course.
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Just realized something else about that sub that gives me pause and dropping the skid made me think of it.
The mothership didn't have a crane for lifting the sub back up on board and instead the sub relied on a submersible barge(?) to lift it above the surface that the sub had to maneuver over first. What happens if they lost power or otherwise lost control? There's no top hatch instead someone from the outside had to unbolt the front cover. Are they screwed even if they made it to the surface?
M/V Polar Prince has a decent looking cargo davit on her foredeck (see pictures on marinetraffic.com) There's a couple of pics of her with 20ft connexs on the foredeck, which if full exceed the weight of Titan. Even if her davit couldn't lift Titan clear of the water and put it on deck, every pic of seen of Titan has lifting slings attached and faked out on top, so they could tension the lifting gear and hold her at the surface while they recovered the crew in an emergency (if they got to the surface). Or they could hold the sub in lace with the davit and maneuver over the barge to place the sub where it needed to be if they had time and the thrusters were dead.
Still, there's something to be said for a wedge shaped hatch that could be opened from inside if needed.
I'm not sure explosively blowing the front of the sub off is significantly more survivable. That's a pretty big column of water hitting everyone in the face.
Which is one of the very real issues with this design: In an effort not to compromise the Carbon cylinder with more holes they designed a hatch that could not be safely opened while the sub was in the water, regardless of how exactly it was held closed.
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From time travel back to the depths
There was some question on the method used to drop the emergency weights on the Titan
Says the weights and even the skid could be dropped by use of a hydraulic lever
Interview is before they found the debris field.
Missing Sub: Former Titan passenger 'couldn't get comfortable with design'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7gy3Sk1c6g
I've watched Josh Gates' show ("Expedition: Unknown") numerous times, and I'm glad - for his sake - he backed off from making this sub part of his show because of safety concerns.
He's a good actor too, since he can show enthusiasm on camera for coming across insignificant things when he never seems to find the MAIN archaeological item he's looking for.
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Had the not imploded, if they surfaced and the “barge” isn’t close by and nobody is available to unbolt the hatch, yes.
They should have had explosive bolts that could be fired from the inside, even in the absence of primary ship power. That wouldn’t have helped them in this case of course.
If it's still in the water it appears to me they can't start unbolting the hatch or blow it without the sub filling with water. The entire front is the hatch and it will still be at least halfway in the water without the barge.
Trying to find a better photo
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Untitled1.jpg)
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(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDzkJBaek6x42hqLeJf6Ev2upUgSfKaWhqTRFlJUifwN1omkjpV3LGA1OjRPfg0QuOfL0&usqp=CAU)
(https://i.redd.it/inside-the-titanic-sub-additional-pics-v0-nwpwr6hn467b1.jpg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c2fd98318c58db6271a9bd113232214e645bb0ff)
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That blue nylon thing you see just aft of the hatch opening is a lifting sling. They are always on that sub in pictures I've seen of it in the water.
Clearly someone thought they'd be able to lift it out of the water if needed or they wouldn't rig a slng each time it goes in the water.
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Still seems awfully Jerry-rigged and not well thought out to me.
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That article is riddled with inaccurate information. I'd like the 5 min of my life back please.
And poorly-written, as well. But that goes hand-in-hand with the inaccuracies.
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From time travel back to the depths
There was some question on the method used to drop the emergency weights on the Titan
Says the weights and even the skid could be dropped by use of a hydraulic lever
Interview is before they found the debris field.
Missing Sub: Former Titan passenger 'couldn't get comfortable with design'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7gy3Sk1c6g
So here we have a ten-minute (almost) video talking about the Titian, but all the footage shows the earlier, smaller Cyclops submersible.
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So here we have a ten-minute (almost) video talking about the Titian, but all the footage shows the earlier, smaller Cyclops submersible.
Noticed that, media outlet's fault playing stock footage, and I filtered it out and just listened to what he had to say since he seemed to be someone who should know what's he's talking about.
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If it's still in the water it appears to me they can't start unbolting the hatch or blow it without the sub filling with water. The entire front is the hatch and it will still be at least halfway in the water without the barge.
Trying to find a better photo
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/x383/WLJohnson1/Untitled1.jpg)
Bad design. But, with an auto deployed life raft equipped with an epirb or equivalent, if everyone was ready to swim out immediately, and if it would sink with the opening pointing up, it could work. A top side escape hatch would be better.
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Bad design. But, with an auto deployed life raft equipped with an epirb or equivalent, if everyone was ready to swim out immediately, and if it would sink with the opening pointing up, it could work. A top side escape hatch would be better.
Your assuming they can open it in a snap, they can't. According to everything I've seen they have to remove 17 bolts to open it. By the time a few were removed the sub will be more than likely be filling with water and on it's way to join the Titanic
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(https://img.ifunny.co/images/9a2cc9f0b39a310fa7fd34126b4d1e4d4fa977597995375136eb7975eb7298b9_1.webp)
I guess it did complete at a few missions prior.
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Your assuming they can open it in a snap, they can't. According to everything I've seen they have to remove 17 bolts to open it. By the time a few were removed the sub will be more than likely be filling with water and on it's way to join the Titanic
That was in reference to having explosive bolts.
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I ran across this video today, which talks in a little more depth [heh] about the ways the thing could surface. According to the vid, there was a Deadman Switch surfacing system in which sandbags would be dropped automatically by dissolving links after 10ish hours in salt water, giving Titan positive buoyancy.
That's actually pretty clever, and had they not had a catastrophic hull failure would have had them bobbing around on the surface by Sunday evening. They also had droppable metal pipe ballast and an inflatable airbag to get to the surface.
Comfort of the hatch design aside, the real issue seems to be the single bias CF cylinder for the main hull. Not a great material or shape for compressive forces, and even worse at repeated compressive forces. I note from a quick glance across the various DSV's that hit 4000M depth, while they have many external hull shapes, they all use a pressure sphere as the manned compartment. Probably an engineering clue there.
Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odLJ0dSLxmc
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You could say it was a Titan-ic disaster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqIvzvB--0s
Sacred Cow Shipyards hosts a bunch of sub memes on this video while talking about dark humor. =)
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You could say it was a Titan-ic disaster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqIvzvB--0s
Sacred Cow Shipyards hosts a bunch of sub memes on this video while talking about dark humor. =)
Bonus points if you get the Babylon 5 one at 03:20 :rofl:
Edit: 07:05 Gowron eyes :rofl:
I'm still watching
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I vaguely remember of that episode to get the joke. I rewatched the series, but it was a few years ago before COVID.
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double post.
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they've started bringing up pieces of the sub...
https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/imploded-titanic-submarine-seen-for-first-time-as-pieces-recovered-up-from-sea-floor/ar-AA1daiXG?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=88d122cd506f4c3db445d88c94d721b4&ei=34
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Saw a passing reference Facebook about builders screwing stuff into the hull (ie creating flaws in the CF matrix). I always take FB stories with a grain of salt, but looked up photos unrelated to the FB story and it seems to check out.
From what I'm seeing in the photo below, it does indeed appear they mounted monitors and other items directly to the pressure hull with what appear to be simple screws. Even if there's a mounting plate behind it, that's a discontinuity in the CF, essentially wrecking the structural integrity of the entire assembly.
(https://www.wnct.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/99/2023/06/64975d1feb5041.96557784.jpeg?w=876&h=493&crop=1)
Nothing says "Hey, I'm an idiot!" like haphazardly screwing things into the pressure hull of a submersible destined for use at 200+ atmospheres. :O
Brad
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Just saw something somewhere that mentioned a liner inside the sub.
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Just saw something somewhere that mentioned a liner inside the sub.
Would almost have to be. I just noticed there seems to be illumination coming from multiple locations under the ceiling surface. Unless they embedded some kind of light strip or fixture in the pressure hull itself, a liner would have to be used.
Brad
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Can't even remember what I was looking at when I saw that. Was more than likely scanning one of the million news pages I look at in the course of a day.
Edit: Bet I know what it was,. an article headline talking about the Titanic ocean LINER
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You know, the more I read about this sub, the less sorry I feel for the guy. It truly seemed like he was bound and determined to go out of his way to screw up.
Friend of mine sent me a clip of him doing an interview with a reporter, and he says something to the effect of "At some point, safety is a massive waste."
That's just... wow.
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"At some point, safety is a massive waste."
If his point is that there comes a point of diminishing returns when it comes to safety he's absolutely correct. Obviously he didn't have a solid enough grasp on where that point was, but none of us believe otherwise.
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Like I said earlier, if there's any justice in this it's the fact he went down with the sub. Sucks though he took 4 others with him.
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The CEO would have pretty much spent a major chunk of his life in giving depositions and testimony. He was spared that.
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If his point is that there comes a point of diminishing returns when it comes to safety he's absolutely correct. Obviously he didn't have a solid enough grasp on where that point was, but none of us believe otherwise.
I was thinking about that first part also. I agree there comes a point where safety is used as an obstruction rather than an improvement tool. However, when we are talking about a self contained composite tube going down to 12,500 feet, that point of taking safety too far is way way out there on the horizon.
That is why I was asking about manual backups for that controller the other day. Even if the backups are not manual, there need to be backups, and they need to be independent in some way to try and eliminate single points of failure. You normally apply that only to critical systems, but in this case, most everything is critical. And that carries forward to construction as well since we don't know if they are screwing monitor stands into the hull. It also carries over into inspections and mechanical integrity testing of the hull between dives.
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I know that these things are expensive, but as far as I know this is the first CF cylindrical submersible ever built.
Modeling is nice and all, but I'd probably want to test a prototype to destruction before I put a bunch of people in it. Talking about repeated pressure cycles, this was the first sub, and this trip was the first time one had hit this pressure cycle.
At least raise and lower the prototype 10 or 15 times unmanned, and if it makes it cut it apart to see what happened to the hull. Then you'd have a feel for cycle lifespan.
As far as I can tell their testing program was like that line from Yellowstone: "Best we came up with, sir, is like *expletive deleted*ck it, ya know?"
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Lets not lose sight of the fact that this, despite what the brochure may have said, was basically a tourist excursion, yes a high risk one, and safety wise should have been treated as such.
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Lets not lose sight of the fact that this, despite what the brochure may have said, was basically a tourist excursion, yes a high risk one, and safety wise should have been treated as such.
Much like the space tourist industry. I fully expect a catastrophic end to one of those.
bob
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Much like the space tourist industry. I fully expect a catastrophic end to one of those.
Yep, and immediately afterward we'll have tons of posts saying "what they should have done was ..."
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They're bringing up some fragments of the sub using ROVs.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/imploded-titanic-submarine-seen-first-144824288.html
With chunks of the sub in hand, maybe they'll figure out why it failed . . . or maybe they won't. But it wouldn't surprise me if analysis showed that the failure originated at the joint between the carbon fiber body and one of the titanium end caps.
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Interesting. The Yahoo article seems to allude that the nose hatch was brought up relatively intact. I wonder if the overall shape of the sub caused hull implosion to "explode" the hatch outward?
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If his point is that there comes a point of diminishing returns when it comes to safety he's absolutely correct. Obviously he didn't have a solid enough grasp on where that point was, but none of us believe otherwise.
Well, we'll never quite know what he was thinking because the last thing through his mind was apparently a high velocity chunk of the hull.
That said, everything I've seen about this device's construction gives a very strong impression that he had absolutely NO regard for safety at all.
He really reminds me of a richer version of that jackass who built his own steam powered rocket to "prove" that the earth was flat.
He's quite dead, as well.
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Well, we'll never quite know what he was thinking because the last thing through his mind was apparently a high velocity chunk of the hull.
That said, everything I've seen about this device's construction gives a very strong impression that he had absolutely NO regard for safety at all.
He really reminds me of a richer version of that jackass who built his own steam powered rocket to "prove" that the earth was flat.
He's quite dead, as well.
His rocket "worked" the first time also. It was a later attempt that got him.
bob
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Sidebar. The outfit that recovered the debris. Interesting that they could get down there and fiddle around. Ummanned, of course, but apparently capable of quite delicate operations. And communicate with the surface... acoustically, I presume.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Pelagic+Research+Services&t=brave&ia=web
(Search engine results. Contains several packages of info.)_
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^^^I think it is cute that the ROV retrieving the debris has a couple of milk crates to drop things into. No need for fancy stainless or titanium baskets when we can get some milk crates from the back of the Safeway! For years I used a similar milk crate on the back of my Suzuki WeeStrom. I used zip ties to attach it to the rack and it gave me years of loyal service.
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Update
Human remains found, maybe
and a little bit more info
'There were two titanium end caps on each end. They are relatively intact on the sea floor. But that carbon fiber composite cylinder is now just in very small pieces. It's all rammed into one of the hemispheres. It's pretty clear that's what failed.'
US Coast Guard says 'presumed human remains' have been found in wreckage of Titan sub recovered from 12,500ft below the Atlantic surface after 'catastrophic implosion' killed Titanic Five
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12244711/Presumed-human-remains-discovered-wreckage-Titan-sub-officials-say.html
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I know that these things are expensive, but as far as I know this is the first CF cylindrical submersible ever built.
Second, I believe. Isn't their earlier, smaller submersible, the Cyclops, also carbon-fiber?
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I seem to recall you having issues viewing images before and I recall asking what you browser and settings were but don't think you ever answered. And why are your posts always in an odd font?
Font is Times New Roman, 14 point, Firefox is latest version (114.0.2) and for whatever reason, those posts are blank until I clicked "reply" and I saw the link.
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Font is Times New Roman, 14 point, Firefox is latest version (114.0.2) and for whatever reason, those posts are blank until I clicked "reply" and I saw the link.
Check Firefox's security settings for the site. (shield emblem in the address bar).
If set too high it can sometimes interfere with images on this site. If on max turn off just for this site since I assume you can trust this site.
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I will be interested to see what form the human remains are. Fractured pieces of bone? Teeth? Orthopedic hardware?
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I will be interested to see what form the human remains are. Fractured pieces of bone? Teeth? Orthopedic hardware?
"presumed human remains" in my mind strongly implies they got something but not really sure what probably akin to goo that probably got blasted along with parts of the CF hull into the hemisphere. Highly doubt they'll release photos.
'There were two titanium end caps on each end. They are relatively intact on the sea floor. But that carbon fiber composite cylinder is now just in very small pieces. It's all rammed into one of the hemispheres. It's pretty clear that's what failed.'
The amount of force that hit those people most people can't wrap their brains around.
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Sidebar. The outfit that recovered the debris. Interesting that they could get down there and fiddle around. Ummanned, of course, but apparently capable of quite delicate operations. And communicate with the surface... acoustically, I presume.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Pelagic+Research+Services&t=brave&ia=web
(Search engine results. Contains several packages of info.)_
The sacred cow shipyards video I posted earlier addressed the communications side. It seems there are known and reliable communications methods and known reasons why the comms they used are unreliable.
I am no expert on sub design. Just commenting based on what I have seen with chemical plant operations and design.
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And communicate with the surface... acoustically, I presume.
ROVs have cables. Makes comms a lot more straightforward.
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Sidebar. The outfit that recovered the debris. Interesting that they could get down there and fiddle around. Ummanned, of course, but apparently capable of quite delicate operations. And communicate with the surface... acoustically, I presume.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Pelagic+Research+Services&t=brave&ia=web
(Search engine results. Contains several packages of info.)_
I'm pretty sure the Odysseus 6k is a tethered ROV.
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Noticed in a photo of the front end cap the view port was missing and a lifting strap was running through the hole. Did it blow out when the sub imploded or the failure point?
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I think it's more appropriate to leave the remains on-site at the Titanic.
Perhaps the families of those involved wish otherwise... but it's a worthy tomb for those with a fascination for the wreck. It's also a gentle active reminder for the next company that thinks they're going to sell tickets to the sea floor.
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Noticed in a photo of the front end cap the view port was missing and a lifting strap was running through the hole. Did it blow out when the sub imploded or the failure point?
I am curious as well. I have heard comments/accusations elsewhere that the viewport was made of a material not rated for that depth. I haven't seen details of it so I don't know.
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I am curious as well. I have heard comments/accusations elsewhere that the viewport was made of a material not rated for that depth. I haven't seen details of it so I don't know.
Seen some harping on the fact it was made from acrylic. In doing some reading on the Trieste, which dove (35,797 ft) down to the Challenger Deep, it's view port was made from acrylic as well according wiki.
Something I found on the internet. Haven't confirmed the info yet.
Wow the mfg only certified the view port to 4265 ft depth, generally glass is designed with a 5:1 FS in pressure applications. Glass in pressure applications are prone to brittle failure... they can fail even at that design depth due to a minor scratch or internal flaw. Taking the sub to 12,500 ft depth where the FS would of been < 1.71:1. We use a 10:1 FS for Brittle failure if personnel are around a view window under pressure and then so with a protective cover if a brittle failure were to occur.
https://www.facebook.com/OceanGateInc/posts/titan-boasts-the-largest-viewport-of-any-deep-diving-manned-submersible-with-an-/1047919665393254/
He's talking like it was made of glass. So was it made from glass or acrylic? Note: It's facebook
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Straight from the, now decreased, horse's mouth
He "broke the rules".
POGUE: And I guess the last thing, we should talk about the view port.
RUSH: So the view port is seven-inch-thick plexiglass, acrylic, and that's another thing where I broke the rules. A lot of the submersible industry is run by Pressure Vessels for Human [Occupancy] standards, which acts like a standards body, but it's not a standards body; it's a volunteer group that has come up with some rules.
And there was a very well-known person, Clarence Statue (PH), was, like, the king of acrylic. And so he wrote a book—well, he had several books, but one of these is sort of the Bible. And even he admitted that he was super conservative. It has safety factors that—they were so high, he didn't call 'em safety factors, he called 'em "conversion factors."
You know, for most things, safety factors are one-and-a-half, two-and-a-half…and it's four to ten. And most of what he was looking at was lower-pressure applications. And so when you look at the charts, we're off the charts.
One of the things about acrylic that's really great is, before it fails, at one-third its failure pressure, it will start to "craze." So it'll often be distorted. So you know when that thing's gonna fail. And so when I was looking at this, that view port is—according to the rules, it is not allowed.
So there's these weird rules that are out there.
It will shrink. It's a semi-solid, the plexiglass; it'll come into the cabin by about three-quarters of an inch—all of the pressure that's there.
POGUE: Oh, man. And that's a good thing?
RUSH: Well, that's what it is. But the great thing about plexiglass that I love is, you can see every surface. And if you've overstressed it, or you've even come close, it starts to get this crazing effect.
POGUE: Okay. And if that happened underwater—
RUSH: You just stop and go to the surface.
POGUE: You would have time to get back up?
RUSH: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's way more warning than you need.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/titanic-submersible-interview-transcript-with-oceangate-ceo-stockton-rush/
"You just stop and go to the surface"
Note: The Trieste's viewport cracked ~30,000ft according to wiki
BUT
I also saw something about him bragging how large the view port is compared to other submersibles which makes me think. So another possible failure point
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I understand this is a fictional reference, but do you guys remember the underwater laboratory from the show Lost?
It was about 100 ft under water and had a moon pool in it.
By having a moon pool, does that mean that the air inside is pressurized to more than 1 atmosphere?
Are there sneaky submarines that have flood-able rooms with moon pools, or air locks to the ocean, where a diver would have to transition from one atmosphere to 2 or 3 (ore more!) atmospheres of pressure in air (a pre-compression chamber?), then get into water for a task and return to the submarine and go through decompression?
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From wiki on the Trieste viewport cracking
The descent to the ocean floor took 4 hours 47 minutes at a descent rate of 0.9 metres per second (3.2 km/h; 2.0 mph).[15][16] After passing 9,000 metres (30,000 ft), one of the outer Plexiglas window panes cracked, shaking the entire vessel.[17] The two men spent twenty minutes on the ocean floor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trieste_(bathyscaphe)
Note: They often use plexiglass and acrylic interchangeably in many articles
Brave or stupid having your viewport crack ~30,000ft and saying F it keep going? I will note the Trieste only ever made one dive to the Challenger Deep.
Note how they say outer panes as in i guess means it had multiple layers. Wonder if the Titan's was one layer knowing this guy. You know, breaking the rules.
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He keeps talking as if it were a pressure vessel, and that seems to have colored his thinking. It was not a pressure vessel, it was a vacuum vessel compared to the outside pressures.
At the risk of encountering boos and hisses and rotten tomato throwing, the device sucked.
I've been pointing this out here and there, but I know first-hand what happens when a big TV picture tube implodes. Here it is in slo mo
https://youtu.be/iqLNskTt1Zs (1:32)
I note there are several vids out thee now demonstrating this kind of event.
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I understand this is a fictional reference, but do you guys remember the underwater laboratory from the show Lost?
It was about 100 ft under water and had a moon pool in it.
By having a moon pool, does that mean that the air inside is pressurized to more than 1 atmosphere?
Are there sneaky submarines that have flood-able rooms with moon pools, or air locks to the ocean, where a diver would have to transition from one atmosphere to 2 or 3 (ore more!) atmospheres of pressure in air (a pre-compression chamber?), then get into water for a task and return to the submarine and go through decompression?
On the boats I served on we had what were optimistically called "escape trunks". A basically spherical chamber, large enough for about 6-7 people as long as they didn't mind a little crowding, with two hatches, inner and outer, so essentially an airlock. All hands were trained in the operation of the escape trunk.
During a Mediterranean deployment on my last boat we shipped a bunch of SEALs on board and they did some training going in and out of the hatch while we were submerged to periscope depth which would have put the outer hatch depth at maybe 25' or so below the surface. Theoretically the escape trunks were usable to about 600'. Newer boats can have "swimmer delivery" systems which is a structure mounted externally to the top of the hull and accessed through an escape trunk. I admit I know very little about how they operate.
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I understand this is a fictional reference, but do you guys remember the underwater laboratory from the show Lost?
It was about 100 ft under water and had a moon pool in it.
By having a moon pool, does that mean that the air inside is pressurized to more than 1 atmosphere?
Are there sneaky submarines that have flood-able rooms with moon pools, or air locks to the ocean, where a diver would have to transition from one atmosphere to 2 or 3 (ore more!) atmospheres of pressure in air (a pre-compression chamber?), then get into water for a task and return to the submarine and go through decompression?
If it has a moon pool, then yes, the structure's atmosphere would need to be pressurized to whatever the surrounding water's pressure is. If it's an airlock system, then the atmosphere could theoretically be at 1 atm, and they pressurize or depressurize the airlock as required for the direction of travel.
I watched a "making of" show about The Abyss, and they actually built the Deepcore 2 rig and submerged it in a tank of water. The moon pool in it was real, and since it was at 33ft the air in the set was at two atm. The tank they were filming in was deeper than that, but they built the set on a concrete column in the tank specifically to keep the air at low enough pressure in the set that the actors would not need to decompress. James Cameron and the camera operators would do long days at the bottom of the tank and have to stop for hours long decompression stops halfway to the surface before they could get out.
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Now I'm remembering the recent Godzilla movie where Watanabe is on a submarine that is supposedly transiting the tunnels between our ocean and Hollow Earth, and gets into a micro sub in a moon pool.
Obviously physics in the Monsterverse has to be radically different for Hollow Earth to exist and have variable direction gravity like we see in the GvK movie, so the sub perhaps wasn't exposed to 400+ bar pressure... but that open moon pool on that sub, with everyone standing around it at 1 atmosphere, was cracking me up. I was wondering why the sub wasn't filling with water through the moon pool.
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Now I'm remembering the recent Godzilla movie where Watanabe is on a submarine that is supposedly transiting the tunnels between our ocean and Hollow Earth, and gets into a micro sub in a moon pool.
Obviously physics in the Monsterverse has to be radically different for Hollow Earth to exist and have variable direction gravity like we see in the GvK movie, so the sub perhaps wasn't exposed to 400+ bar pressure... but that open moon pool on that sub, with everyone standing around it at 1 atmosphere, was cracking me up. I was wondering why the sub wasn't filling with water through the moon pool.
How tall is Godzilla now, 400ft? Think King Kong is suppose to be about the same height now. Both him and King Kong keep getting bigger and bigger. Think the big ape started out somewhere around 40ft.
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Font is Times New Roman, 14 point, Firefox is latest version (114.0.2) and for whatever reason, those posts are blank until I clicked "reply" and I saw the link.
If you are running Firefox v. 114.0.2, you are using the experimental/developmental channel. The current version in the Extended Support Release (meaning long-term stable) is v. 102.12.0esr
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If you are running Firefox v. 114.0.2, you are using the experimental/developmental channel. The current version in the Extended Support Release (meaning long-term stable) is v. 102.12.0esr
?
I'm running 114.0.2 and I'm not on the experimental/developmental channel
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Whoops
OceanGate's website still includes pages advertising trips to the Titanic - 11 days after five people, including the company CEO, were killed on one of the journeys.
A page titled 'Titan Expedition - Explore the Titanic' was still available on Thursday which offered a chance to dive to the shipwreck in the company's submersible.
'Intrepid travelers will sail from the Atlantic coast of Canada for an 8-day expedition to dive on the iconic wreck that lies 380 miles offshore and 3,800 meters below the surface,' the page states.
'Your dive will provide not only a thrilling and unique travel experience, but also help the scientific community learn more about the wreck and the deep ocean environment.'
It lists two 'missions' in June 2024 and says the June 2023 mission is 'currently underway'.
Thrilling and unique!
The page also lists renowned French explorer PH Nargeolet, who perished on board the Titan, as an expert 'who may join you on [the] expedition'.
About that....
OceanGate Expeditions is STILL advertising $250,000 trips to the Titanic wreckage - 11 days after five were killed in implosion on doomed Titan
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12247875/OceanGate-Expeditions-advertising-250-000-trips-Titanic-wreckage.html
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AZRedhawk44's post got me curious so I wondered how deep pressurized moon pool having habitat's got.
The deepest one I can find in a cursory poke around the internet is the US Navy's SeaLab II that had a moon pool and was set at 195ft, or right about 6 atm.
Deep Saturation divers can operate pressurized up to about 1000ft (30 atm) but I couldn't easily find out if that was normally using submerged habitats, or the presurized habs on the ship we talked about earlier in the thread. At those pressures the breathing gas mix gets pretty exotic too.
Now my curiosity is satisfied
......The More You Know
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. . .
OceanGate Expeditions is STILL advertising $250,000 trips to the Titanic wreckage - 11 days after five were killed in implosion on doomed Titan
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12247875/OceanGate-Expeditions-advertising-250-000-trips-Titanic-wreckage.html
Did the company have more than 1 sub?
With the CEO gone, is there anyone left to sign paychecks for whoever else worked there?
How many have already left to seek other employment?
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Did the company have more than 1 sub?
With the CEO gone, is there anyone left to sign paychecks for whoever else worked there?
How many have already left to seek other employment?
They still have the Cyclops, an older submersible with a larger front viewport. But the Cyclops isn't rated for nearly the depth of the Titanic, and after the fate of the Titan submersible I would have serious doubts about using the Cyclops in anything other than the depth of an average swimming pool.
https://www.geekwire.com/2018/oceangate-gets-cyclops-1-submersible-set-scientific-expedition-salish-sea/
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He keeps talking as if it were a pressure vessel, and that seems to have colored his thinking. It was not a pressure vessel, it was a vacuum vessel compared to the outside pressures.
At the risk of encountering boos and hisses and rotten tomato throwing, the device sucked.
I've been pointing this out here and there, but I know first-hand what happens when a big TV picture tube implodes. Here it is in slo mo
https://youtu.be/iqLNskTt1Zs (1:32)
I note there are several vids out thee now demonstrating this kind of event.
I think you are right about that bold part. But boo an hiss to you anyway. =)
I get the impression the design was not 100% there and had at least one too many weak points which led to failure. Hopefully, we can find enough in the debris to learn something from the failure.
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They still have the Cyclops, an older submersible with a larger front viewport. But the Cyclops isn't rated for nearly the depth of the Titanic, and after the fate of the Titan submersible I would have serious doubts about using the Cyclops in anything other than the depth of an average swimming pool.
https://www.geekwire.com/2018/oceangate-gets-cyclops-1-submersible-set-scientific-expedition-salish-sea/
Neither was the Titan it turned out.
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NEW COMFORT ZONE PARAMETERS FOR TERRY
Well, I now have another Terry's Comfort Zone Parameter to go along with these previously established values:
76°F +/- 3°F
6MPH +/- 3MPH breeze
40%RH +/- 30%RH
32fs/s Gee (parameters not tested, but judging from motion sickness on a kid's swing set when I was a kid, ain't much)
5'5" +/- 0'5" girls height, but flexible depending on horizontal dimensions
Now, a new parameter based on this "incident" and the additional remarks can be added:
5'1" water depth + 0'0" / -5"1" in still water
( 5'1" being the height of my chin )
Duly noted and recorded,
Terry, 230RN
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I actually drove by the Oceangate shop space down on the Everett waterfront. The Oceangate sign is now gone and there is a handwritten sign on the roll up door 'closed until further notice'.
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I actually drove by the Oceangate shop space down on the Everett waterfront. The Oceangate sign is now gone and there is a handwritten sign on the roll up door 'closed until further notice'.
Come to think of it, I'm rather baffled why a company specializing in Atlantic Ocean expeditions would headquarter on a Pacific Coast harbor.
I understand that there's a lot of carbon fiber expertise in the Puget Sound area. Aside from Boeing, SpaceX was experimenting with CF hulls for their Starship back in 2016 or so and they did the work up in the Puget Sound. That being said, an Atlantic port seems more suitable for a Titanic tourism company.
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I understand this is a fictional reference, but do you guys remember the underwater laboratory from the show Lost?
It was about 100 ft under water and had a moon pool in it.
By having a moon pool, does that mean that the air inside is pressurized to more than 1 atmosphere?
Are there sneaky submarines that have flood-able rooms with moon pools, or air locks to the ocean, where a diver would have to transition from one atmosphere to 2 or 3 (ore more!) atmospheres of pressure in air (a pre-compression chamber?), then get into water for a task and return to the submarine and go through decompression?
You really ought to read Blind Man’s Bluff.
The Navy tapped a cable at 400 feet using submarines with air locks/decompression chambers.
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Let's say a sub is rated for 1000 feet dive depth, or about 30 atmospheres of pressure differential.
If you pressurized the air inside the sub somehow to 30 bar, could you then take the sub to double its dive depth?
Obviously you couldn't rise above -1000ft without risking a burst of the hull or damage to the crew without depressurizing.
Are there any subs running that take advantage of this, and this is why some subs stay under water for months at a time?
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Let's say a sub is rated for 1000 feet dive depth, or about 30 atmospheres of pressure differential.
If you pressurized the air inside the sub somehow to 30 bar, could you then take the sub to double its dive depth?
Obviously you couldn't rise above -1000ft without risking a burst of the hull or damage to the crew without depressurizing.
Are there any subs running that take advantage of this, and this is why some subs stay under water for months at a time?
Yes, theoretically, although it's probably not exactly linear, and there may be things like seawater piping and coolant pumps we aren't taking into consideration, but the hull should work.
No there are not any subs I'm aware of doing that. Among other things, at 30 atm the gas mixture becomes really important. You have to replace most of the nitrogen with helium, but leave just enough nitrogen in the mix that the nitrogen narcosis offsets the High Pressure Nervous Syndrome. You also need to very carefully monitor the partial pressure of the oxygen to keep from hitting oxygen toxicity.
The subs that stay down for months at a time are nuke boats using their unlimited electricity to recycle and scrub the air at 1 atm.
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Let's say a sub is rated for 1000 feet dive depth, or about 30 atmospheres of pressure differential.
If you pressurized the air inside the sub somehow to 30 bar, could you then take the sub to double its dive depth?
Obviously you couldn't rise above -1000ft without risking a burst of the hull or damage to the crew without depressurizing.
Are there any subs running that take advantage of this, and this is why some subs stay under water for months at a time?
I suppose it's possible in theory, but I suspect very difficult in practice. Different air mixtures, endurance of people at high pressures, compression, decompression, partial pressure of oxygen, effect on the sub's own systems . . . it wouldn't be a trivial task. I know there are issues with oxy/helium, so oxy/hydrogen is used as a deep diving mixture - think of a sub filled with THAT!
And think about what's carried on the sub - everything from pop cans to lithium batteries to ink pens - not to mention military ordnance. What happens when those are subjected to 30 atmospheres of pressure?
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In the larger scheme of things would you be gaining that much? You could shave a bit off the hull but there is really little different between 0 and 1K compared to 1k and 12.5k pressure wise plus in addition to the equipment issues above you would be making surfacing that much more problematic, time consuming, and possibly fatal in an emergency
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why some subs stay under water for months at a time?
My longest stint submerged was 89 days.
Subs have several means to replenish/recycle the air we would breathe.
Oxygen can be replenished in 4 ways.
Ventilate- Out with the old and in with the new, requires a trip to periscope depth and extending a snorkel mast. Some what noisy evolution and risks detection.
Oxygen banks- Oxygen stored at very high pressure that can be slowly released into the sub.
Oxygen generator- Extract O2 from seawater by electrolysis and discharge the hydrogen overboard
Chlorate Candles- Chemical generation of O2. My first boat did not have a Oxygen generator, we burned candles or used the O2 banks.
CO2 removal
CO2 scrubber- removes excess CO2 from atmosphere https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA389253 and as mentioned in the link, lithium hydroxide which can be placed in a machine and the air pumped through it or in an emergency situation it can even be spread out on the deck to absorb CO2 passively.
CO and hydrogen- they are catalyzed out of the air and burned off with the residue discharged overboard
I've seen O2 levels allowed to get low enough that a Zippo lighter would barely burn and a cigarette (old school) would go out on it's own. Imagine a really bad hangover grade headache with out the hangover stomach issues.
We would routinely take a pressure in the boat just prior to diving as just a matter of course. When surfacing we would have to equalize pressure in the boat before opening hatches or the poor schlub opening it could actually get sort of popped out like a cork.
We did have to ability to pressurize a breached compartment against sea pressure but that was a last resort action.
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(https://i.imgur.com/dCFkAhKl.jpg)
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"presumed human remains" in my mind strongly implies they got something but not really sure what probably akin to goo that probably got blasted along with parts of the CF hull into the hemisphere. Highly doubt they'll release photos.
The amount of force that hit those people most people can't wrap their brains around.
Could we get a couple of sponges to Pier 17 please. Oh, and a biohazard bag. Thanks
bob
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(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/609/690/1e7.jpg)
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(https://i.redd.it/cs3vav6sog7b1.gif)
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Couldn't help but notice
Heaven's Gate
OceanGate
Wonder if they all had their Nikes on?
I'm go away now and go back to slipping bourbon
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzvgsnNacAEKuBt?format=jpg&name=large)
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(https://www.guide4moms.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Missing-Titanic-Submarine-Memes-3-1024x1024.jpg)
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(https://i.imgflip.com/7qb0bf.jpg)
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(https://i.redd.it/5ih5vntznm7b1.jpg)
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^^^^
Bonus points if you read that in their voices
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'Chlorate Candles- Chemical generation of O2. My first boat did not have a Oxygen generator, we burned candles or used the O2 banks.'
Those things produce a lot of heat, don't they?
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'Chlorate Candles- Chemical generation of O2. My first boat did not have a Oxygen generator, we burned candles or used the O2 banks.'
Those things produce a lot of heat, don't they?
https://youtu.be/g3Ud6mHdhlQ?t=619
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Seeing the 4,300 cert limit for the viewport being repeated here
Note info on the viewport in the first image and the fact that it's gone in the second.
Would like to see that info confirmed and must consider the fact the viewport could have blown out during the implosion but this makes me wonder.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12252049/Titan-sub-rescue-crew-leader-breaks-reveals-moment-debris.html
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/06/29/00/72469557-12244711-Titan_s_carbon_fiber_hull_and_its_acrylic_viewport_were_subject_-a-13_1687995164852.jpg)
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/06/29/00/72636007-12244711-The_titanium_front_end_of_Titan_where_its_viewing_port_was_locat-a-7_1687995164609.jpg)
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'Chlorate Candles- Chemical generation of O2. My first boat did not have a Oxygen generator, we burned candles or used the O2 banks.'
Those things produce a lot of heat, don't they?
Destin of the "Smarter Every Day" Youtube channel has a few episodes about modern subs. Good weekend viewing.
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Check Firefox's security settings for the site. (shield emblem in the address bar).
If set too high it can sometimes interfere with images on this site. If on max turn off just for this site since I assume you can trust this site.
It is set on "strict", if that is any help. I didn't know about that shield as I never used it for anything. When I still use IE on Win. XP, it was also set at "max" or just one step below that. That may be how I have avoided getting a virus except for one time (via email from a relative) in 25 years.
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https://youtu.be/4Dj8IJbP41c
If true apparently they had text based comms with the surface. And if true they descended much too quickly, and when they got alarms weren’t able to abort effectively and ascend.
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https://youtu.be/4Dj8IJbP41c
If true apparently they had text based comms with the surface. And if true they descended much too quickly, and when they got alarms weren’t able to abort effectively and ascend.
Even he says it could be fake so take with an internet size grain of salt
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Even he says it could be fake so take with an internet size grain of salt
Hence the “if true” caveats.
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Hence the “if true” caveats.
Was reinforcing what you said. Sorry if it came across as otherwise.
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This jives with what Cameron was saying and he says some of the numbers match.
So either
A) It's real and Cameron saw this and they were trying to ascend.
B) It's fake and someone matched it up with what Cameron was going on about.
But if real why did the crew on the mothership wait 8 hours before calling it in if they knew the sub was in distress?
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This jives with what Cameron was saying and he says some of the numbers match.
So either
A) It's real and Cameron saw this and they were trying ascend.
B) It's fake and someone matched it up with what Cameron was going on about.
C) it’s fake and doesn’t match up other than a couple spots, done by someone with either just enough information or an ability to convincingly fake it to make it seem like it matched up with Cameron.
D) it’s real but Cameron had other info and this just corroborates what he had.
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Yeah, it's already been confirmed that their comms was a text based system.
The video was certainly interesting though, if the texts were real. I'm no engineer, but if they were descending nearly twice as fast as normal, I'm thinking that's a big stress contributor. Pilot seemed pretty blasé about it.
But what do you expect from a company whose CEO wanted to hire 20-something surfers and other "free thinkers" as pilots rather than trained and experienced pilots. I think they watched one too many Star Treks where they massively exceed limits but come out okie dokie.
https://youtu.be/VPz-6HuM8Sc?t=117
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If this is fake someone needs to be paid a visit by the Narn Bat Squad
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The faster descent shouldn’t have been a huge factor in the implosion other than a slower descent might have triggered alarms at a somewhat shallower depth and might have given an opportunity to ascend before disaster. Keep in mind it still took 1:30 instead of 2:30 to get to nearly titanic depth. It’s not like they zoomed down in 5 minutes or something crazy. Structurally speaking that’s still a quasi static load on the sub, not a dynamic, rapidly increasing load.
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The faster descent shouldn’t have been a huge factor in the implosion other than a slower descent might have triggered alarms at a somewhat shallower depth and might have given an opportunity to ascend before disaster. Keep in mind it still took 1:30 instead of 2:30 to get to nearly titanic depth. It’s not like they zoomed down in 5 minutes or something crazy. Structurally speaking that’s still a quasi static load on the sub, not a dynamic, rapidly increasing load.
If true it would still put loads on the hull faster than normal. But also if true just the fact they were descending far faster than normal should have told them something was seriously amiss somewhere in the system. Blowing it off would jive with what we've heard about this guy though.
If NASA/SX/ULA etc.. launched a rocket and it suddenly went 50% faster than normal you would think they be looking at that abort button.
So either this is fake or this guy was even more criminally arrogant than we thought
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It would seem to indicate the sub was a bit heavy, unless they were just running the vertical thrusters hard to descend.
A heavier than anticipated craft would jive with the slow ascent after they dumped ballast as well.
I wonder how much of the descent/ascent was programmed to be thrust and how much was planned to be their natural buoyancy.
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Structurally speaking that’s still a quasi static load on the sub, not a dynamic, rapidly increasing load.
I totally accept that with normal materials. I'm just wondering if the carbon fiber component might have been affected. I'm still unclear exactly how that was integrated into the structural design.
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A heavier than anticipated craft would jive with the slow ascent after they dumped ballast as well.
I'm now interested in their prep/descent/ascent checklists. Having worked with both ROVs and aircraft, known weight is a pretty critical factor in planning. I'd want to know how they got heavier than "anticipated".
Also, even in scuba diving, just a few extra pounds requires buoyancy compensation, and the more you have to diddle and correct over neutral, the wonkier your swim is going to be as you continually correct for "overweight" at various depths.
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Can't keep from comparing this to Capt Smith running at full speed on a moonless night despite being warned of icebergs.
If true of course.
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It would seem to indicate the sub was a bit heavy, unless they were just running the vertical thrusters hard to descend.
A heavier than anticipated craft would jive with the slow ascent after they dumped ballast as well.
I wonder how much of the descent/ascent was programmed to be thrust and how much was planned to be their natural buoyancy.
A submersible “should” be slightly positively buoyant at max design depth. They should need the thrusters to descend.
My best guess is the carbon hull was absorbing substantial water. Possibly from low cycle fatigue cracks from prior dives. That both compromised hull strength and ability to ascend due to the added mass. Eventually the water absorption caused delaminations or just significantly reduced the strength properties of the composite resulting in the pressure hull failing catastrophically.
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Do we know for certain that they jettisoned ALL the ballast? If, again, information so far is accurate, I would guess they did, since they also dropped the skids, and that would seem like "last resort" ballast to me.
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I totally accept that with normal materials. I'm just wondering if the carbon fiber component might have been affected. I'm still unclear exactly how that was integrated into the structural design.
The cylinder was bonded to the titanium hemispheres. Apparently somewhat sloppily. Epoxy is pretty good in compression so I’m guessing the bonding between the carbon and titanium probably wasn’t the initial failure point. And even if the bond failed before the implosion it’s likely the pressure from the water would have kept a good seal between the carbon fiber and the titanium at depth because the carbon fiber should have been under more compressive strain than the metal. Or at least that’s how’d I’d have told them to design it, if I took sufficient leave from my senses to be involved at all.
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Do we know for certain that they jettisoned ALL the ballast? If, again, information so far is accurate, I would guess they did, since they also dropped the skids, and that would seem like "last resort" ballast to me.
If that transcript is real, then it appears they jettisoned everything they could as far as ballast.
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[popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]
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A submersible “should” be slightly positively buoyant at max design depth. They should need the thrusters to descend.
My best guess is the carbon hull was absorbing substantial water. Possibly from low cycle fatigue cracks from prior dives. That both compromised hull strength and ability to ascend due to the added mass. Eventually the water absorption caused delaminations or just significantly reduced the strength properties of the composite resulting in the pressure hull failing catastrophically.
Making a submarine hull out of what amounts to a high tech sponge makes about as much sense as using a screen door for the hatch.
As far as the alleged transcript is concerned . . . color me skeptical.
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Just did a google search for any updates on this transcript business and still can't find anything coming from an "official" source saying one way or another whether or not it's real or fake. Should that be viewed as a bit odd by now?
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The cylinder was bonded to the titanium hemispheres. Apparently somewhat sloppily. Epoxy is pretty good in compression so I’m guessing the bonding between the carbon and titanium probably wasn’t the initial failure point. And even if the bond failed before the implosion it’s likely the pressure from the water would have kept a good seal between the carbon fiber and the titanium at depth because the carbon fiber should have been under more compressive strain than the metal. Or at least that’s how’d I’d have told them to design it, if I took sufficient leave from my senses to be involved at all.
I found this video which has some construction footage of bonding the ring to the pressure chamber. It looks like the CF tube fit into a channel in the back of the ring. 2:53 shows them moving the ring into place, and if we go with the "5" thinks CF tube" dimension that is often given, I'm going to say it had about 1.5" overlap on the joint.
What's also interesting is that with the tube in a titanium channel like that, the epoxy wasn't taking much stress beyond just the seawater pressure. Any stress from the different materials compressing at different rates would have been on the CF just aft of the joint, at the side of the channel on the ring.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-vh0kzuecQ
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Picture of the front cap, which also contain the viewport, open.
I don't see any sort of gasket but not sure if one is actually needed.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12269887/OceanGate-18-warnings-Stockton-Rush-ignored-fatal-Titanic-trip.html
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/07/07/15/72473637-12269887-Stockton_Rush_the_CEO_of_OceanGate_was_one_of_the_five_men_who_d-a-19_1688739949684.jpg)
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A gasket is probably a more likely failure point than well machined mating surfaces.
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A gasket is probably a more likely failure point than well machined mating surfaces.
Was thinking along those lines.
But it doesn't hurt to ask, OW!
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There's an O-ring/gasket clearly visible fit in a groove about halfway across the flange of the dome half.
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There's an O-ring/gasket clearly visible fit in a groove about halfway across the flange of the dome half.
Maybe, didn't know if that was lighting or not.
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Maybe, didn't know if that was lighting or not.
It looked too even to me to be a reflection.
It's definitely a seal, or a machined groove for one. You can see it in other pictures with the hatch open.
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2023/06/22/multimedia/22titanic-blog-2018photos-02-pqjb/22titanic-blog-2018photos-02-pqjb-square640-v2.jpg)
(https://www.heraldnet.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/27533959_web1_L2-OceanGate-ebj-211216-1200x800.jpg)
(https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/230620122959-screengrab-oceangate-sub-cbs.jpg?c=1x1)
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That does look like some sort of O-ring groove on the flange surface. At work, we have one compressor that can go up to 1400 psig. The higher pressure flanges use those O-ring style seals. Ours are ANSI class RTJ flanges if I remember correctly. I think the sub would need to go to higher pressures than the flanges at the link.
https://www.texasflange.com/products/flange-dims-weights/rtj-face-dimensions-and-flange-tolerances/
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The latest information I can find on the "presumed human remains" is from 28 June. It was apparently entangled in the wreckage and I presume it would be difficult to remove it for analysis keeping in mind respect for the dead. But I guess by now (9 July 2023) some information should be available.
I note in the many photos of the recovery that the items were often partially covered with tarps. I wondered if there was a technical reason for that or whether that was perhaps to cover up any visible remains.
Terry, 230RN
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I would like to think any debris with remains found in it that was recognized as remains wouldn't be hauled around in the air with loose plastic tarps flapping in the wind.
Of note was an article that stated there was CF hull debris that was pressed into the rear dome. Perhaps the remains were found there and I don't recall seeing the rear dome yet in any of the photos of the debris.
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(https://res.cloudinary.com/engineering-com/image/upload/w_640,h_640,c_limit,q_auto,f_auto/image001_trpngp.jpg)
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^,^
"I would like to think any debris with remains found in it that was recognized as remains wouldn't be hauled around in the air with loose plastic tarps flapping in the wind."
I'm not clear on what you meant there.
^,^
"Of note was an article that stated there was CF hull debris that was pressed into the rear dome. Perhaps the remains were found there and I don't recall seeing the rear dome yet in any of the photos of the debris."
Yikes, what an implication!
That would explain a lot.
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There will be fed agencies to ensure remains are scientifically, legally, and respectfully isolated. There's no way human remains, or even suspected remains, would simply be "tarped up" in a response like this.
When we did Alaska Air Flight 261, the Feebers handled all that, and there were plenty of identifiable remains showing up during the ROV surveys.
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"There will be fed agencies to ensure remains are scientifically, legally, and respectfully isolated. There's no way human remains, or even suspected remains, would simply be "tarped up" in a response."
My remark about "partially covered with tarps" was in fact meant to indicate respect for the dead. to prevent viewing of any remains. Ensuring "the remains are scientififically, legally, and respectfully isolated" is expected by any norms of decency.
By "fed agencies" because it was an American vessel in international waters? (I presume "Feebers" means "Federal Agencies?")
Terry, 230RN
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By "fed agencies" because it was an American vessel in international waters? (I presume "Feebers" means "Federal Agencies?")
I think "feebers" is a reference to FBI agents, a.k.a "fibbies."
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I think "feebers" is a reference to FBI agents, a.k.a "fibbies."
Correct. FBI forensics unit, in that example.
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^,^
"Of note was an article that stated there was CF hull debris that was pressed into the rear dome. Perhaps the remains were found there and I don't recall seeing the rear dome yet in any of the photos of the debris."
Yikes, what an implication!
That would explain a lot.
Like a lot of things we've heard could be false and just because I haven't seen the rear cap/dome whatever you want to call it isn't proof. But if there are human remains in the rear cap that COULD be why we haven't seen it.
We do know from photos the viewport in the front cap is missing and it could have blown out during the implosion. BUT, if the viewport was the failure point, and there was concern expressed over it before the dive, that would explain the rear cap comment above and the possibility of human remains in the rear cap. Basically they would have been blasted into it.
Largely speculation on my part based on info that could be false
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...scientififically...
I assume the misspelling is intentional. I like it.
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^ Nah, not even a ifFreudian stutter of the finger. But I get your meaning.
Like a lot of things we've heard could be false and just because I haven't seen the rear cap/dome whatever you want to call it isn't proof. But if there are human remains in the rear cap that COULD be why we haven't seen it.
We do know from photos the viewport in the front cap is missing and it could have blown out (in?) during the implosion. BUT, if the viewport was the failure point, and there was concern expressed over it before the dive, that would explain the rear cap comment above and the possibility of human remains in the rear cap. Basically they would have been blasted into it.
Largely speculation on my part based on info that could be false
Yes, I saw where you were going with that and I agree with its plausibility.
Again, yuch, ick.
While concern for the families is paramount, they can console themselves with the high probability that death was instantaneous.
Terry, 230RN
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^ Nah, not even a ifFreudian stutter of the finger. But I get your meaning.
Yes, I saw where you were going with that and I agree with its plausibility.
Again, yuch, ick.
While concern for the families is paramount, they can console themselves with the high probability that death was instantaneous.
Terry, 230RN
"When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not screaming in terror, like the passengers in his car."
Bad jokes aside
Brings up in my mind that pesty transcript. If fake why haven't they said so by now? Puzzling IMHO.
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Newsweek has contacted OceanGate for comment by email. The company has recently announced on its website that it has "suspended all exploration and commercial operations."
Commenting on the "transcript" on Reddit, Parks Stephenson—who according to Insider.com is a Titanic explorer who worked with director James Cameron on Titanic-related projects—said he initially believed the text, but then found inconsistencies.
"I admit that I was at first fooled by the scenario described in this 'log,' because it seemed to fit what little we know and suspect," Stephenson wrote.
"After the initial emotion passed and I took time to study the text more carefully, however, I could start to see certain incongruities." He called the text "most likely nothing more than a cruel and cynical fantasy."
https://www.newsweek.com/titan-sub-transcript-full-titanic-1811912
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Like a lot of things we've heard could be false and just because I haven't seen the rear cap/dome whatever you want to call it isn't proof. But if there are human remains in the rear cap that COULD be why we haven't seen it.
We do know from photos the viewport in the front cap is missing and it could have blown out during the implosion. BUT, if the viewport was the failure point, and there was concern expressed over it before the dive, that would explain the rear cap comment above and the possibility of human remains in the rear cap. Basically they would have been blasted into it.
Largely speculation on my part based on info that could be false
I think we've seen enough of the wreckage now to pretty much determine that the CF Tube was the implosion failure. Between what they've brought up, and what the recovery folks are describing on the bottom. If the viewport had been the failure point there would be larger chunks of CF in the wreckage.
I saw an engineering analysis of the wreckage footage on youtube that looked at a close up of the viewport flange and the lack of any damage and floated the hypothesis that the recovery team had removed it to make lifting easier. I'll see if I can dig up that video again.
ETA: Heh, it's the video I linked at the bottom of the last page. He talks about the viewport and the mounting flange before going into the sub construction.
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I think we've seen enough of the wreckage now to pretty much determine that the CF Tube was the implosion failure. Between what they've brought up, and what the recovery folks are describing on the bottom. If the viewport had been the failure point there would be larger chunks of CF in the wreckage.
I saw an engineering analysis of the wreckage footage on youtube that looked at a close up of the viewport flange and the lack of any damage and floated the hypothesis that the recovery team had removed it to make lifting easier. I'll see if I can dig up that video again.
If the energy of the the implosion was anywhere near what Scott Manley calculated (equal to 50kg of TNT?) the CF hull could very well have shattered from that.
As far as removing the viewport I would think bringing up debris as is without modification would be essential to an investigation and I highly doubt it could have been done while it was still down there. On the ship, sure, but again that would mess with the investigation IMHO.
Again, I'm just speculating based on info that could be false.
Pissing in the dark and they keep moving the toilet.
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Also, removing the viewport by ROV tools would be extremely difficult. If there was any way to get that piece up without doing that they would, in addition to wanting to recover the viewport itself.
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If the implosion force was anywhere near what Scott Manley calculated the CF hull could very well have shattered from that.
As far as removing the viewport I would think bringing up debris as is without modification would be essential to an investigation.
Again, I'm just speculation based on info that could be false.
Pissing in the dark and they keep moving the toilet.
Me too, it's just an interesting thought experiment. I'm just running through the course of events in my head. If the port failed and imploded, you get a highly pressurized (from the POV of the inside of the sub) 22" column of water shooting into the sub, with some acrylic shrapnel. But from the POV of the CF Pressure vessel, what is happening is internal and external pressures are rapidly equalizing. Unless there's an autoignition of the air (and there's no fuel to cause that) there's no way for the interior pressure of the CF vessel to exceed the exterior vessel. It IS a very quick and dynamic change in loads, but it's a very quick removal of loading, which I don't think would result in a bunch of CF shreds everywhere. There would be bigger pieces, which the divers have said they don't see.
The tiny shreds that they do see, combined with the pretty clean, undamaged titanium parts really make my thing that it was the CF cylinder that failed. I've been reading about delamination coupled buckling failure (or snap buckling) of composite shells on deep sea pipelines, which seems a really plausible failure mode for this sub. But as you say, we're really just giving our best guess here from incomplete info.
That does look like some sort of O-ring groove on the flange surface. At work, we have one compressor that can go up to 1400 psig. The higher pressure flanges use those O-ring style seals. Ours are ANSI class RTJ flanges if I remember correctly. I think the sub would need to go to higher pressures than the flanges at the link.
https://www.texasflange.com/products/flange-dims-weights/rtj-face-dimensions-and-flange-tolerances/
The 6000psi and 10000psi hydraulic systems I've worked on sealed the flanges that way. Well machined flanges with a groove in one or both, and an expensive, dimensionally accurate O-ring in the groove. Seal material has to be matched to the fluid in the system.
https://www.tu-lok.com/6000-psi-sae-flange.html
Also, removing the viewport by ROV tools would be extremely difficult. If there was any way to get that piece up without doing that they would, in addition to wanting to recover the viewport itself.
I think the implication was they got the dome to the surface as it was, and may have removed the port there or on deck for easier lifting and handling in air. But again, It was just speculation I saw based on the flange being gone, and the flange mounting surface seeming to be undamaged. If the port did go into the sub the question of where are the bolts and retaining flange is a good one.
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Me too, it's just an interesting thought experiment. I'm just running through the course of events in my head. If the port failed and imploded, you get a highly pressurized (from the POV of the inside of the sub) 22" column of water shooting into the sub, with some acrylic shrapnel. But from the POV of the CF Pressure vessel, what is happening is internal and external pressures are rapidly equalizing. Unless there's an autoignition of the air (and there's no fuel to cause that) there's no way for the interior pressure of the CF vessel to exceed the exterior vessel. It IS a very quick and dynamic change in loads, but it's a very quick removal of loading, which I don't think would result in a bunch of CF shreds everywhere. There would be bigger pieces, which the divers have said they don't see.
The tiny shreds that they do see, combined with the pretty clean, undamaged titanium parts really make my thing that it was the CF cylinder that failed. I've been reading about delamination coupled buckling failure (or snap buckling) of composite shells on deep sea pipelines, which seems a really plausible failure mode for this sub. But as you say, we're really just giving our best guess here from incomplete info.
The 6000psi and 10000psi hydraulic systems I've worked on sealed the flanges that way. Well machined flanges wit a groove in one or both, and an expensive, dimensionally accurate O-ring in the groove. Seal material has to be matched to the fluid in the system.
https://www.tu-lok.com/6000-psi-sae-flange.html
Remember reports of what the Thresher and Scorpion looked like, like they had gone through a shredder.
I could see the viewport giving way and the energy released by the implosion, again calculated by Manley to be equal to 50kg of TNT, shattering the CF hull and the caps popping off like corks in a corkgun. But the viewport very well could have popped out then.
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Unless there's an autoignition of the air (and there's no fuel to cause that) there's no way for the interior pressure of the CF vessel to exceed the exterior vessel.
The human fat would be a good fuel to ignite. Plus anything else flammable, like their clothes, plastics, etc.
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Remember reports of what the Thresher and Scorpion looked like, like they had gone through a shredder.
I could see the viewport giving way the energy released by the implosion, again calculation by Manley to be equal to 50kg of TNT, shattering the CF hull and the caps popping off like corks in a corkgun. But again the viewport very well could have popped out then.
Sure, except that both Thresher and Scorpion also have pretty large, mostly intact pieces. Scorpion in particular is intact enough that they could figure out which frames failed first and in which order the bulkheads failed. Both have a solid debris field and there was violent tearing apart of stuff but niether pressure hull just "shredded". Of course Steel isn't Carbon Fiber, and a Multi compartment submarine full of loose stuff isn't a single compartment submersible. So failures could very well look different.
I respect Scott Manley's videos but I think that calculation was a little "YouTube"y. I'm sure he got the joules correct, but an explosion and an implosion are very different things, and buy tying it to TNT, I think he's inviting visualization of very different forces.
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I respect Scott Manley's videos but I think that calculation was a little "YouTube"y. I'm sure he got the joules correct, but an explosion and an implosion are very different things, and buy tying it to TNT, I think he's inviting visualization of very different forces.
I keep a salt shaker handy at all times.
IIRC he was calculating based on the volume of air in the sub and didn't included the occupants in that. I would have to go back and watch the video again.
and I think his calc was amount of energy created by the implosion not necessarily outward. But it's still going to be one heck of a shock to the structure
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If they're removing stuff just to make it easier to lift that bugs me considering the fact the viewport is/was considered a potential failure point and that would be messing with evidence. What would have been so hard about putting the front cap into a lifting net without removing the viewport?
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Pissing in the dark and my feet are wet.
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The human fat would be a good fuel to ignite. Plus anything else flammable, like their clothes, plastics, etc.
Thanks. The air doe not ignite. It ignites other things by the heat of its compression, as in diesel engines. At only 25 atmospheres (14.7psi x 25) compression it is hot enough to ignite the diesel fuel injected into that hot air.
I'd like to look over the energy calculations to equate to TNT but I don't have time. You'd have to consider the average velocity of all the imploding particles as well as the inrushing water, and the inrushing vesssel parts, plus the mass of all these things. Once all that is done by guessing and averageing and hoping, the calculation is easy. Energy equals the guessed-at-mass time the square of the guessed-at velocities. We are all familiar with that when calculating bullet energy.
I've also posted a vid of a big TV tube implosion here and you will note the particles end up everywhere, despite their initial direction being inward. And this is with a pressure differential of only 14.7 PSI, one atmosphere.
I also wonder about the possible reverberation effects we have seen in slo mos of guns being fired under water. It can be seen that the gaeous bubbles expand and contract, expand and contract. This effect can also be seen in slo mos of things like firecrackers set off in fishtanks.
There's certainly a lot to consider... as another example, might the hot compressed air turn some of the seawater into high pressure steam and cause outward forces after the initial collapse thereby causing some of the scattering and "blendering" effects?
Fun to play with "extremism" in the physical world... like shouldn't the gravity at the center of a black hole really be zero, as it is at the center of the earth??
Or if maybe I should say, as Perd touched on... "the ifysical world."
Nap time.
Terry, 230RN
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I tried calculating the temperature of the air in the sub if it compressed all at once to 380 atm, but I came up with wildly varying numbers so I gave up. One of my assumptions is off. I remain skeptical that without any sort of hydrocarbon in there you would get a detonation like we were discussing. Fabrics, fats, electronics, even batteries don't detonate as much as they burn, and the window for that to happen before any combustion is extinguished by seawater is very small.
I would point out that a lot of diesel engines don't actually manage to ignite diesel with pure compression. they need glow plugs until the heads get hot enough to sustain the compression ignition.
The auto ignition theory would also pretty much require a single failure at one end of the pressure hull, with the rest of the hull holding atmosphere as the water rushed in. If the hull collapsed along the length of the cylinder the air would escape bubbles through the fractures before autoignition could occur.
interesting side note: Glancing at the vaporization temperature of water at pressure tables I don't see any that hit 380 atm, but at 220 atm it's 375*C. Eyeballing the math, it's in the realm of possible that the air bubbles got hot enough that they boiled the water compressing them and there were some *very* short lived steam pockets before they cooled and re-condensed.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2F3og0IMJcSI8p6hYQXS%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=e4041b9b366c996f918fe87b93dcbc4dc3512a4b892a01bcf33dfeabfcb70a17&ipo=images)
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"I remain skeptical that without any sort of hydrocarbon in there you would get a detonation like we were discussing."
As gross as it sounds... could the people in the sub have provided the source of hydrocarbons?
Ah, I see that someone else has already posited that.
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I was accounting for the people. I don't think that's rich enough fuel for a boom. But I confess that's more gut feeling from dealing with engines and biofuel than actual knowledge.
Side note: is animal fat a hydrocarbon? My chemistry isn't that good.
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I was accounting for the people. I don't think that's rich enough fuel for a boom. But I confess that's more gut feeling from dealing with engines and biofuel than actual knowledge.
Side note: is animal fat a hydrocarbon? My chemistry isn't that good.
The three most common fatty acids stored in human adipose tissues are oleate (C18H34O2), palmitate (C16H32O2), and linoleate (C18H32O2),
They’re hydrocarbons. So, yeah. Flammable.
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At an average 20% body fat (possibly low) and 170lbs average weight (likely low), that 170lbs of human fat onboard that submersible. At well above diesel ignition pressures that could be a substantial kaboom.
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From the standpoint of igniting the people - there have been a number of people shot at contact distance with rifles over many years and many wars. Muzzle pressure is on the order of 10,000 PSI, and I don't recall any people being ignited by the pressure - even locally around the muzzle. For that matter, bullet impacts will create a lot of localized pressure, too - but they don't set the meat targets on fire. I'm not convinced a sub implosion will ignite the passengers before the water saturates them. In fact, living tissue does contain a good percentage of water to begin with. (Wet kindling?)
Surely someone, somewhere, has run an experiment with the application of sudden high pressure on tissue.
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The energy from a single gunshot is insignificant compared to
the power of the force an implosion at 3500m.
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^
"I would point out that a lot of diesel engines don't actually manage to ignite diesel with pure compression. they need glow plugs until the heads get hot enough to sustain the compression ignition."
True, but that's for cold-starting conditions. where there's iinitial heat loss to the cold surrounding steel. It would not be necessary if the designed compression ratio were higher, but this involves more stress on the engine parts. Put it this way, if sudden compression to, say, 25 or 30 atmosphere will ignite diesel, sudden compression to 380 atmospheres will get it hot enough to ignite anything. I might jokingly add that it could be hot enough to sustain fusion reactions... <big grin, har-de-har-har.>
^
"...interesting side note: Glancing at the vaporization temperature of water at pressure tables I don't see any that hit 380 atm, but at 220 atm it's 375*C. Eyeballing the math, it's in the realm of possible that the air bubbles got hot enough that they boiled the water compressing them and there were some *very* short lived steam pockets before they cooled and re-condensed."
That's why I offered the possibility of ummm... let's say an oscillating bubble throwing crap all over. (That 375°C at 220 Atm steam pressure seems low. No tables, no math, just my left eyebrow raised itself.)
There are enough rapid dynamically-changing extreme circumstances in this playbook that any change in any assumption changes most the other assumptions and there are too many un-assessed variables so that attaining "truth" requires a couple of Crays or extensive empirical testing with a tightly limited number of "variable variables." (Egad,Terry, did you actually say that? For shame, Shane!)
But fun to play with them based on what evidence is available. Too bad such tragic circumstances are involved.
Terry, 230RN
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My understanding is that you can tell the difference between someone shot at contact distance and someone shot further away. Burns on the skin/clothing is part of it.
In the order of a things for a sub decompression, I think the people inside would be smashed to pulp before the heat of compression takes effect. Then the water will absorb the heat immediately anyway.
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...
Surely someone, somewhere, has run an experiment with the application of sudden high pressure on tissue.
Yes, probably the Nazis in the camps or the Japs in their Unit 731 in China. I am told that our data on death by hypothermia was obtained from German human experiments.
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I may need to reduce my meds. When I read "Sub Transcription", my mind immediately went to:
Jimi Hendrix - "3rd Stone From The Sun" Scout Ship to Mothership Transcription:
{intro slowed down talking begins}
Star fleet to scout ship, please give your position. Over.
I'm in orbit around the third planet from the star called the sun. Over.
You mean it's the Earth? Over.
Positive. It is known to have some form of intelligent species. Over.
I think we should take a look.
{intro slowwed down talking ends}
Strange beautiful grass of green,
With your majestic silver seas
Your mysterious mountains I wish to see closer
May I land my kinky machine?
{start slowed down}
Strange beautiful, grass of green
With your majestic silver seas
Your mysterious mountains I wish to see closer
May I land my kinky machine?
{end slowed down}
{Distorted}
Although your world wonders me,
With your majestic and superior cackling hen
Your people I do not understand,
So to you I shall put an end
And you'll never hear surf music again
{start slowed down...rough guess at lyrics}
Secret
Oh, secret
Oh
Shhhh...
{end slowed WAY down}
https://youtu.be/Zts332Y-nyg
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"Side note: is animal fat a hydrocarbon? My chemistry isn't that good."
I'd have thought yes, but I'm finding conflicting statements on da Googles...
Apparently the additional oxygen atoms in animal fat take away its hydrocarbon status. According to a snipped from a Nat Geo article, we'd have to be hydrogenated before we got to hydrocarbon status.
Interesting.
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^ Agreed.I knew there was a difference between hydrocarbons and "fats" (stearins?) but I didn't want to dig up the techinicals. In either case, they are both carbon-rich burnables, as you may remember from having fat fires in the kitchen and the flareups in BBQs.
I'm not sure we should be talking combustion per se in the present discussiop, per the water infusion pointed out above, but maybe just instant pyrolysis or boiling or both, or what. As I said, add a variable, and two more rise up immediately.
Also as noted above, I doubt that a full, complete, unredacted coroner's report will ever be forthcoming, so the --not "guesswork," but let's call it "estimatework --will go on for a significant portion of forever. The very complexities provide a rich source of discussion.
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Yes, probably the Nazis in the camps or the Japs in their Unit 731 in China. I am told that our data on death by hypothermia was obtained from German human experiments.
Wouldn't have to be human experiments - someone must have done ultra high pressure tests on mice or rats or even just tissue samples.
The energy from a single gunshot is insignificant compared to the power of the force an implosion at 3500m.
In total, yes. But not locally, that is, within a couple of centimeters of the muzzle. And the temperature of the hot, burning powder gas would itself provide an additional ignition source (besides the compression of the sudden ultrahigh pressures) and cause powder burns. But I still don't recall ever seeing anything about actual tissue ignition. Some things can be, well, vaporized/pulverized without igniting themselves.
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I'm going ro go with "they were crushed to death instantly and painlesly by a huge high-speed column of exremely high pressure sea water."
Terry, 230RN
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And now we have this
No it wouldn't have dove like an arrow if it lost propulsion. A sub isn't an airplane :facepalm:
Spanish submarine expert José Luis Martín suggested the submersible lost stability due to an electrical failure that left it without propulsion, causing it to fall toward the seabed 'like an arrow vertically' with its porthole facing down.
He estimated that the sub began freefalling at a depth of around 5,600 feet and fell 'as if it were a stone and without any control' for about 3,000 feet until at around 8,600 feet it 'popped like a balloon' due to the rapidly changing pressure.
The Titan changed position and fell like an arrow vertically, because the 400 kilos of passengers that were in the porthole compromised the submarine. They all rushed and crowded on top of each other,' Martín added.
Titanic sub victims knew their fate for a MINUTE before vessel popped like 'balloon': Expert reveals 'horror, fear and agony' as the five men were piled on top of each other in total darkness during 3,000ft nosedive
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12286881/Titanic-sub-victims-knew-fate-minute-3-000ft-nosedive-expert-says.html
He's an
(https://media.makeameme.org/created/expert.jpg)
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A sub isn't an airplane
[tinfoil] [tinfoil]
That's what they want you to believe.
[tinfoil] [tinfoil] [tinfoil]
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The Titan changed position and fell like an arrow vertically, because the 400 kilos of passengers that were in the porthole compromised the submarine.
...
He estimated that the sub began freefalling at a depth of around 5,600 feet and fell 'as if it were a stone and without any control' for about 3,000 feet until at around 8,600 feet it 'popped like a balloon' due to the rapidly changing pressure.
So buoyancy of a totally submerged vessel is now dependent on orientation? Riiiiiight....
Brad
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I'm not sure why he thinks the CG or CB would change appreciably if the thrusters cut out.
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And now we have this
No it wouldn't have dove like an arrow if it lost propulsion. A sub isn't an airplane :facepalm:
Not an airplane, but could be an aquaplane/hydroplane. If it is negatively bouyant, it will sink. If it is sinking, it will do so in an orientation that places the center of mass to offer the least resistance during free fall. A badminton shuttlecock falls ball first. An arrow falls tip first. This is due to the center of balance being forward of the geometric center of the object, and the rear of the object offering drag. Variation from point-first-flight of these two objects results in the vanes producing even more drag. The objects fall in the most efficient orientation possible.
I suppose the sub could fall nose first if the ballast was too far forward towards the nose hatch, and the passengers were all crowded towards the nose, and power was lost. Look at the design of Deepsea Challenger. That vehicle is a vertical pill design rather than a horizontal pill design like Titan. It naturally fell vertically. All it would take to mimic the descent profile of that vehicle is a change in center of mass.
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Remember though that boats (and submersibles) have a Center of Buoyancy, which is not the same as the CG. The distance between the CG and the CB creates a righting force proportional to that distance. This is what keeps boats upright on the surface, and is the main part of submarine attitude control. Drag through the water at the speeds it was probably sinking is not very significant. (unless it had already popped and the wreckage was several tons negatively buoyant. Than it would sink pretty quick.)
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I'm not sure why he thinks the CG or CB would change appreciably if the thrusters cut out.
My guess is that he is a freaking moron with delusions of adequacy.
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I'm not sure why he thinks the CG or CB would change appreciably if the thrusters cut out.
Or why the ballast weights wouldn't have fallen off if the capsule went into the nose-down orientation.
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I seriously wonder if the mothership even had the capability to haul the sub on deck which brings back concerns I had about opening the hatch (17 bolts) while the sub was still in the water and unable to get on the towed platform.
The Alvin research sub is transported to dive sites on the deck of a dedicated mothership, which is outfitted with custom winches and a large crane that places it in the ocean.
In contrast, Titan had no dedicated mothership, and to cut costs it was towed out to sea on the fatal dive by a smaller chartered vessel, the Polar Prince.
The Polar Prince, a decommissioned Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker, was smaller and older than the ships OceanGate had used in previous years, in a cost-cutting move by Rush.
Using a tow cable, the ship dragged the Titan across hundreds of miles of open sea on top of the launch platform that was used to submerge and retrieve the sub.
Disturbing new theory on why Titan imploded: Experts slam CEO for hiring cheaper 'mothership' which dragged shoddy sub across rough seas to Titanic site, unlike safe rival that's kept on deck
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12303359/OceanGate-CEOs-cost-cutting-measures-doomed-Titan.html
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I doubt the towing would have contributed to the implosion of the hull, but the entire operation shows that the CEO was basically a cheap *expletive deleted*it who wasn't interested in maintaining generally-accepted factors of safety.
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I doubt the towing would have contributed to the implosion of the hull, but the entire operation shows that the CEO was basically a cheap *expletive deleted*it who wasn't interested in maintaining generally-accepted factors of safety.
I doubt that too, my concern is whether or not the mothership had the capability to haul the sub aboard if need be. If not there's no way they could have removed all 17 bolts and got them out before the sub flooded if it was still in the water.
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I doubt that too, my concern is whether or not the mothership had the capability to haul the sub aboard if need be. If not there's no way they could have removed all 17 bolts and got them out before the sub flooded if it was still in the water.
What was the plan to recover them if something hadn’t gone wrong? They must have had some way of loading and unloading people at sea.
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What was the plan to recover them if something hadn’t gone wrong? They must have had some way of loading and unloading people at sea.
The sub was suppose to maneuver to the platform while still underwater and then the platform would raise it to the surface.
Whether or not the platform itself could maneuver on it's own under the sub if the sub lost power or maneuverability I don't know as I haven't seen it stated one way or the other. Could the mothership haul it up out of the water? One would hope it could but with this guy?
The Alvin research sub is transported to dive sites on the deck of a dedicated mothership, which is outfitted with custom winches and a large crane that places it in the ocean.
In contrast, Titan had no dedicated mothership, and to cut costs it was towed out to sea on the fatal dive by a smaller chartered vessel, the Polar Prince.
The Polar Prince, a decommissioned Canadian Coast Guard icebreaker, was smaller and older than the ships OceanGate had used in previous years, in a cost-cutting move by Rush.
Using a tow cable, the ship dragged the Titan across hundreds of miles of open sea on top of the launch platform that was used to submerge and retrieve the sub.
(https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.924%2C$multiply_0.9735%2C$ratio_1.5%2C$width_756%2C$x_0%2C$y_28/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/7cda68bebe7c53a86688753544d3417f29cec5b8)
(https://cdn.24.co.za/files/Cms/General/d/2525/6580a7597ed647e587b54bba941628c0.jpg)
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Beware of discount Titanic wreck tour tickets
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Found a photo of the Titan being hauled up onto it's mothership while on it's platform on a previous expedition but as stated in the above article and evidenced by photos Rush ditched that mothership for a cheaper one that had to tow the platform.
https://www.prestigeonline.com/sg/people/events/passengers-on-titan-titanic-submersible-dead/
(https://images.prestigeonline.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/06/23110302/2021-Titanic-Survey-Expedition-Titan-on-Platform-SCw-scaled-1-1024x563.jpg)
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We discussed this a bit a few pages back. Polar Prince has a pretty decent davitt on her gargo deck, that appears to be capable of moving 20ft connexs around. The max weight of a 20ft box is like 52,000 lbs so plenty of grunt for the Titan.
Even if they couldn't lift the sub on deck, they could rig the lift and hold her at the surface while a swimmer popped the bolts and got the passengers put in an emergency.
Not making excuses for Rush's lack of planning, but this particular piece of catastrophising is probably not an issue.
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We discussed this a bit a few pages back. Polar Prince has a pretty decent davitt on her gargo deck, that appears to be capable of moving 20ft connexs around. The max weight of a 20ft box is like 52,000 lbs so plenty of grunt for the Titan.
Even if they couldn't lift the sub on deck, they could rig the lift and hold her at the surface while a swimmer popped the bolts and got the passengers put in an emergency.
Not making excuses for Rush's lack of planning, but this particular piece of catastrophising is probably not an issue.
Saw that in photos but was unsure if was still on board since all the photos I had seen previously showed her with it was while she was still painted in her coast guard colors. Apparently she was painted blue over the coast guard red in Oceangate service. All those photos I had seen previously after being painted blue where at the wrong angle or were too blurry
Guess it's still there
(https://c7.alamy.com/comp/2R8CT94/polar-prince-towing-oceangate-expeditions-submersible-vessels-on-a-barge-as-it-leaves-for-the-titanic-wreck-site-to-tour-below-the-ocean-2R8CT94.jpg)
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Why mess with this whole platform business then? Seems like on the surface (unintended pun) using the platform system would greatly complicate both the journey to and from the wreck site and the process once there rather than just lift it down then back up on board instead.
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Dunno. Maybe the designer of this sub wasn't that good. :laugh:
I note that the platform was part of the design even when they had a mothership that could get Titan on deck easily.
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Dunno. Maybe the designer of this sub wasn't that good. :laugh:
I don't know what would have given you that idea :P
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Is lifting a vehicle via crane with occupants a standard, acceptable technique? Seems like that could be a safety concern in and of itself.
Might be a good thing to plan for in an emergency, but maybe there was a good reason for that additional step and cost.
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Is lifting a vehicle via crane with occupants a standard, acceptable technique? Seems like that could be a safety concern in and of itself.
Might be a good thing to plan for in an emergency, but maybe there was a good reason for that additional step and cost.
Far as I'm aware they've been doing it that way with submersibles for decades.
If the sub can't withstand being lifted up on deck I ain't riding in it.
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Is lifting a vehicle via crane with occupants a standard, acceptable technique? Seems like that could be a safety concern in and of itself.
Might be a good thing to plan for in an emergency, but maybe there was a good reason for that additional step and cost.
Lifting people with cranes is common. Man baskets, inside secured loads, as long as the people being lifted have something to keep them from falling out it's a generally accepted practice.
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Some interesting pics of the building process in this video, as well as video from the MV Polar Prince on a previous trip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm28gju5Brw
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Some interesting pics of the building process in this video, as well as video from the MV Polar Prince on a previous trip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm28gju5Brw
Saw that this morning. He noted the viewport as far as we know has not been recovered.
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Two cents: Probably shattered in a dozen pieces, falling for a long distance, well scattered, and probaly also opticallly invisible. (That's another two cents.)
Best hurry-up guesses of refractive indices:
Seawater 1.33-1.34 best guess
Teflon ("plastics?") 1.315
These numbers vary a bit depending on a lot of things like light frequency, temperature, blah-blah-blah, but you can see that even with the port still in one piece, it would be hard to detect.
I should be charging five cents for that.
Sort of like looking at one of those "puree" marbles in a glass of water. (For those of us who used to shoot marbles.)
Terry, 230RN
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Lifting people with cranes is common. Man baskets, inside secured loads, as long as the people being lifted have something to keep them from falling out it's a generally accepted practice.
Have you ever seen the Hoya Lifts they use in hospitals and nursing homes? It works in much the way as a lift for a car's engine.
If this "sub" was incapable of being lifted in similar fashion - - - . :facepalm:
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Have you ever seen the Hoya Lifts they use in hospitals and nursing homes? It works in much the way as a lift for a car's engine.
If this "sub" was incapable of being lifted in similar fashion - - - . :facepalm:
But, but ... it was innovative. Revolutionary, even. A paradigm for a new generation of undersea exploratory vehicles.
And the CEO actually believed his own hype ...
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The Titan literally had lifting slings built in. They are in every picture of it.
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The Titan literally had lifting slings built in. They are in every picture of it.
Harbor Freight tow straps
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:rofl: :rofl:
Probably. Actually lifting slings is something HF does pretty well, so more likely straps off a FB ad that also sells dog leashes and "fuel filters".
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(https://go.harborfreight.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/173332_76.png)
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(https://go.harborfreight.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/173332_76.png)
But what is the quality? Is it Titan tested and OceanGate approved?
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New video dropped where he goes into the coating used on the sub, construction, and testing.
Of note is video of struggles they had getting the sub back on the platform during a test dive. Some of the dialog during that test is eerily similar to some in the "transcript" to me.
More I see of this sub the more it reinforces Rush and company was winging it and was thinking "meh, close enough"
Titan Sub Wrong Coating? Hull Construction, Debris Field Search
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTHgy1f_0vg
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Thread necro:
Some remaining debris from the Titan submersible has been recovered by the Coast Guard. Additional human remains were recovered, as well.
Story at The Telegraph.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/11/titan-titanic-us-coast-guard-human-remains/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/11/titan-titanic-us-coast-guard-human-remains/)
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I wonder if we will ever find out what form the human remains are in. Would it be bone shards and fragments of teeth, or just an organic goo?
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Thread necro:
Some remaining debris from the Titan submersible has been recovered by the Coast Guard. Additional human remains were recovered, as well.
Story at The Telegraph.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/11/titan-titanic-us-coast-guard-human-remains/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/11/titan-titanic-us-coast-guard-human-remains/)
Other notable absent facts are the HOW of how the Navy retrieved more vehicle and human remains. ROV with better capacities than something like Victor 6000? Undisclosed manned capabilities? New tech developed recently?
(https://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/ALIENS-guy.jpg?resize=549%2C480)
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I wonder if we will ever find out what form the human remains are in. Would it be bone shards and fragments of teeth, or just an organic goo?
Any organic goo would probably have been eaten by whatever's down there, by now certainly.
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Any organic goo would probably have been eaten by whatever's down there, by now certainly.
I remember reading somewhere there's not a ton of life in the deep oceans outside of the geo-thermal areas.
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Most likely any remains were encapsulated by the debris they recovered.
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I remember reading somewhere there's not a ton of life in the deep oceans outside of the geo-thermal areas.
Also, it's pretty cold down there. I wonder if the normal decay processes could have proceeded very much. Think Oetzi, "The Iceman," that well preserved 5ka old body found in the Alps.
I always assumed a compressed mixed mass of the bodies smooshed into one section of the debris. I'm surprised to hear about another, separate, section with remains.
I also may have speculated about funeral/burial matters in this case and then withdrew the post.
I wonder if they found the window, or parts of it. I questioned that earlier in this thread because transparent objects would be nearly invisible since their refractive index would be damned near the same as ocean water.
Terry, 230RN
REF ("Ötzi" WARNING -- a somewhat shocking pic of the corpse NSFChildren):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi
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Also, it's pretty cold down there. I wonder if the normal decay processes could have proceeded very much. Think Oetzi, "The Iceman," that well preserved 3ka old body found in the Alps.
I always assumed a compressed mixed mass of the bodies smooshed into one section of the debris. I'm surprised to hear about another, separate, section with remains.
I also may have speculated about funeral/burial matters in this case and then withdrew the post.
I wonder if they found the window, or parts of it. I questioned that earlier in this thread because transparent objects would be nearly invisible since their refractive index would be damned near the same as ocean water.
The titanic victims bodies, including bones, totally disintegrated by the time the wreckage was found. The shoes survived, and are the only indication that a body was ever there. I’m not sure if it’s a bacterial or chemical process. Probably some combination. But bodies don’t persist at the bottom of the ocean, even where life is very sparse.
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The titanic victims bodies, including bones, totally disintegrated by the time the wreckage was found. The shoes survived, and are the only indication that a body was ever there. I’m not sure if it’s a bacterial or chemical process. Probably some combination. But bodies don’t persist at the bottom of the ocean, even where life is very sparse.
Water is an exceptionally good solvent, but that was like 70 years, not a couple months. Of course the mechanical mushing of the implosion could speed that process up as well.
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Water is an exceptionally good solvent, but that was like 70 years, not a couple months. Of course the mechanical mushing of the implosion could speed that process up as well.
Yes, but I was mostly refuting Terry’s surmising that bodies would be preserved at such depths, whereas clearly they aren’t.
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Now I'm kinda morbidly curious how much of the disappearence was creature driven vs, just time and disolving. Or do creatures get the soft stuff and the water and currents take care of the bones?
Someone somewhere has to have done a thesis on this.
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Water is an exceptionally good solvent, but that was like 70 years, not a couple months. Of course the mechanical mushing of the implosion could speed that process up as well.
Thank you. I'm surprised that rather large time variable wasn't considered by that poster.
Yes, water is the "Universal Solvent" the old alchemists were seeking. But even there, temperature of the solvent is also a variable. Remember, at absolute zero, nothing would have happened. <grin>
Yes, but I was mostly refuting Terry’s surmising that bodies would be preserved at such depths, whereas clearly they aren’t.
Ditto on that one. We're talking a few months here, not 840 of them. Gee whiz, there's nothing to "refute." Sounds like some people just like to argue for the sheer sake of arguing... not uncommon in the world today.
Anyone want to challenge my remarks about refractive index? Good grief.
A "puree" marble in a glass of water... why, it's almost invisible exept for the studio lights reflecting off it!
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Glass-of-water.jpg)
:rofl:
Terry, 230RN
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Now I'm kinda morbidly curious how much of the disappearence was creature driven vs, just time and disolving. Or do creatures get the soft stuff and the water and currents take care of the bones?
Someone somewhere has to have done a thesis on this.
There's an entire ecosystem down there living on the remains of fish, whales, etc.. that sink to the bottom after dying. Pretty much everything is eventually consumed, bones and all. Waste not, want not.
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Thank you. I'm surprised that rather large time variable wasn't considered by that poster.
Yes, water is the "Universal Solvent" the old alchemists were seeking. But even there, temperature of the solvent is also a variable. Remember, at absolute zero, nothing would have happened. <grin>
Ditto on that one. We're talking a few months here, not 840 of them. Gee whiz, there's nothing to "refute." Sounds like some people just like to argue for the sheer sake of arguing... not uncommon in the world today.
Anyone want to challenge my remarks about refractive index? Good grief.
A "puree" marble in a glass of water... why, it's almost invisible exept for the studio lights reflecting off it!
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Glass-of-water.jpg)
:rofl:
Terry, 230RN
You compared it to a 3000 year old human popsicle. The difference in 70 years and 70 days in that context is meaningless.
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You win. I lose.