Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Fly320s on June 24, 2021, 06:31:42 AM
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https://www.foxnews.com/us/surfside-florida-apartment-partially-collapses-emergency-crews-at-scene
What a mess.
Sounds like structural failure and not a bomb.
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On the NBC network news, it was reported the building had a history of sinking about 2 millimeters per year back in the 90's while a study was being done. It is not known if the sinking continued after the study finished.
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Looking at image 1 of 19 from that article, you can see some cars on the left rolled up. Looking closer, there is a big hole under the building on that side. I think image 4 is a close up of that. That is all on the other side of the building from the main damage you see.
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Possible sinkhole? If a human cause is identified it will likely be years of cursory inspections poorly done and decades of South Florida/ Army corps of engineers mismanagement of aquifers. Waiting for the first politician to say this wouldn’t have happened if Trump and DeSantis had spent money on infrastructure. Because that is coming. Inclusive non binary infrastructure of course.
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Possible sinkhole? If a human cause is identified it will likely be years of cursory inspections poorly done and decades of South Florida/ Army corps of engineers mismanagement of aquifers. Waiting for the first politician to say this wouldn’t have happened if Trump and DeSantis had spent money on infrastructure. Because that is coming. Inclusive non binary infrastructure of course.
The cries about it already are going on.
And the 2.3 trillion “spend it on everything except actual infrastructure” infrastructure bill is about to get signed.
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While in DC the same day a pedestrian bridge over Interstate I-295 in DC collapsed onto the road. Only a few injured, though.
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Obviously the solution is more equity
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Obviously the solution is more equity
Knock down a higher rent building also? Not sure what would be equitable.
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What I've read said it was a condominium building with 2 bedroom units going for $600,000 to $700,000. Really? High priced apartment building to me.
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Pretty cheap for Surfside.
Zillow shoes condos in that town are mostly 750k-1.5M or so
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Smoking gun.
Conditions deteriorated noticeably just from 2018 to early 2021, increasing the estimated cost of repairs by 50% or more, according to NPR. I ran a repair/restoration project almost exactly like this many years ago but, mercifully, it hadn't gotten as bad; the building wasn't 12 residential stories on top of a parking structure; and we didn't have salt water and ground water intrusion to deal with.
At some point, I think someone is going to asking why Moribita or the city didn't close down the building.
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-miami-area-condo-collapse/2021/06/29/1011280545/letter-from-condo-board-warned-buildings-damage-has-gotten-significantly-worse
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-miami-area-condo-collapse/2021/06/29/1010976101/timeline-what-we-know-so-far-about-what-led-up-to-the-surfside-condo-collapse
Apparently, the city had the report and, in November of 2018, a building official (who is no longer employed by the city) told the condo association that the building was safe. I doubt that he had any engineering credentials to make such an assessment, and I suspect that statement could very well open the city up to a huge lawsuit.
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-miami-area-condo-collapse/2021/06/29/1011462540/ross-prieto-rosendo-leave-doral-surfside-condo-collapse-inspector
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On the NBC network news, it was reported the building had a history of sinking about 2 millimeters per year back in the 90's while a study was being done. It is not known if the sinking continued after the study finished.
One of the follow-up articles I recently read said that land subsidence in the entire area has been 1 to 3 mm per year. So it's perhaps not a case of this building sinking into the ground (unlike that high-rise condo in San Francisco), but the entire area where the building rests gradually subsiding. In terms of building safety and structural integrity, that's of far less concern than if THIS building was sinking into the ground.
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Just got around to watching a video of the actual collapse. Boy, that thing didn't take its time coming down, unless the video was at a low frame rate.
Horrifying thing for the victims, if they even had a chance to wake up as it went down.
So much for the expression "Safe as houses."
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Considering that this condo is located on an island on the east side of Biscayne Bay, possibly of "reclaimed land" (fill), the bedrock under most of Florida is erosion-prone limestone, AND that Florida has had a recurring and ongoing problem with "sinkholes", there are numerous possibilities.
Then there was the inspector that reported signs of low/poor maintenance in the pool mechanical room and water there and the underground garage, subsidence may have been a major factor.
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Interesting quote from the below linked article:
The Champlain Towers condo association manager complained just days before the June 24 collapse that delays by the city of Surfside, Florida's building department were "holding us up" from making needed repairs on the building, emails show, according to a report.
"We need to get to answers to these questions," Scott Stewart, the condo’s building manager, wrote June 21.
Surfside’s building department failed to respond to the condo association’s request to approve a temporary parking plan for construction for more than a month, the emails show, according to the Miami Herald.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/surfside-condo-manager-repair-delays
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Interesting quote from the below linked article:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/surfside-condo-manager-repair-delays
It wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever if the e-mail had been answered within 5 minutes.
In an email a week later that went unanswered for a month, Morabito asked the city to make space for construction crews so the repairs could get started.
"It is [Champlain Tower South’s] desire to go out to bid for our 40-year recertification work ASAP and need the Town of Surfside input on this request so everyone has a clear understanding on how this project will be accomplished. As such, we respectfully request that we hear from the Town in the near future so we can make any necessary revisions to our contract drawings and submit same to the Town for permit review/approval," Morabito wrote.
As an architect, I have managed restoration projects on concrete buildings, so I know (generally) what the work entails. In this case, they hadn't even gone out to bid yet. The bidding process alone takes (typically) a month to two months. The construction documents hadn't been submitted for permit yet -- once submitted, for a project of this complexity the review isn't instantaneous. In my state, the building department is allowed thirty days -- by law -- to review construction documents, and many towns and cities have difficulty meeting that statutory deadline.
These are HUGE contracts. Contractors can't develop their bids on the back of an envelope over coffee during a break at the local diner. They put a team of estimators on the bid, they go look at the site, they make their own assessments of how much work is involved, how they will approach it, how many man-hours of labor will be required, what materials and how much will they need, and how long they think the work will take. If there are questions by ANY bidder, the questions and answers are written up and issued as an addendum to ALL bidders, so that all bidders have the same information to work from and there's a level playing field.
If a question from a bidder brings to light some problem with the proposed construction documents -- those get revised and reissued, and that usually results in the bid period being extended.
If, as I expect, the work involved chipping away damaged concrete, repairing or replacing rusted reinforcing steel, and then covering it with new concrete, that's very painstaking work when the beams or columns you're working on are holding up the entire building. The contractor is responsible for the design and erection of temporary shoring, which is needed because they're chopping away the foundations of the structure. It could easily take two weeks to a month for a structural engineer working for the contractor just to design the shoring, and it would probably take another couple of weeks to install it. Only then could the contractor chip out the first loose chunk of concrete from the first beam or column.
Bottom line, this project was NOT ready to go, and the delay in response from the building official, while not good, didn't make any difference. This building was forty years old, and it had apparently been neglected (structurally) for forty years. That's too long. In my [professional] opinion, there was no question that this building was going to collapse. It was a question of when, not if.
Here's one of the structures I managed the repairs on: Xerox Document University.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_National_Conference_Center
It was built in 1974. It was NOT next to the ocean, it did NOT have an underground parking garage beneath the main buildings, it did NOT have a swimming pool leaking into the basement, and we designed major structural repairs to the concrete columns in 1994 - only 20 years after it was built. The actual construction of the repairs took a couple of years -- I don't know how exactly long because I left the firm before that project was completed.
https://xeroxnostalgia.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Leesburg_Trainig_Centre.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_FlqdF_4WRg/UUsWG52lH_I/AAAAAAAAC24/uhn4Tnl92FU/s1600/IMG_3142.JPG
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-890Ns5QeSxQ/UUsWJPBChrI/AAAAAAAAC3U/i-jH9RZ7Xnw/s1600/IMG_3146.JPG
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Someone has their tin foil hat on a little too tight
Now, this brings us to Eric “time for some game theory” Garland, who questioned the decision to implode the building because of the “presence of Israeli Defense Forces” who are aiding in the rescue and recovery efforts:
Eric Garland
@ericgarland
Given the presence of Israeli Defense Forces in this mess, I have a lot of questions as to why this building was demolished in such a rush.
Eric Garland questions demolition of Surfside condo due to ‘presence of Israeli Defense Forces’
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/07/06/eric-garland-questions-demolition-of-surfside-condo-due-to-presence-of-israeli-defense-forces/
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Someone has their tin foil hat on a little too tight
Eric Garland questions demolition of Surfside condo due to ‘presence of Israeli Defense Forces’
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/07/06/eric-garland-questions-demolition-of-surfside-condo-due-to-presence-of-israeli-defense-forces/
Well, in all actuality if any one knows how to bring down a high rise apartment building it would be the IDF. ;)
bob
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Jet fuel can't melt steel
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Well, in all actuality if any one knows how to bring down a high rise apartment building it would be the IDF. ;)
bob
The news media refused to show the rocket launcher on top of the building. [tinfoil]
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Someone has their tin foil hat on a little too tight
Eric Garland questions demolition of Surfside condo due to ‘presence of Israeli Defense Forces’
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2021/07/06/eric-garland-questions-demolition-of-surfside-condo-due-to-presence-of-israeli-defense-forces/
If he has a point to make, I wish he'd make it.
What was that supposed to imply?
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At least 64 people have now been confirmed dead and 76 others remain potentially unaccounted for since a 12-story residential building partially collapsed in South Florida's Miami-Dade County last month.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/death-toll-rises-to-64-as-recovery-efforts-continue-in-surfside/ar-AALVjqi?ocid=msedgntp
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The local news stories today were all talking about the folks in charge have officially switched from a rescue op to a recovery op.
They don't think anyone is left alive. Not surprising, but sad nonetheless.
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The sad thing is that this was probably preventable. I read an interview with a man who used to live in the building, and who now lives in the twin that's three buildings to the north. He said the north building is in much better condition, because the board fixes problems when they see them. It appears more and more (to me, anyway) that the board at the collapsed building only paid attention to superficial issues and weren't concerned with maintaining the structure. Since the collapse of the south twin, the north twin has been checked by a structural engineer and given a clean bill of health.
Having lived in a condominium for several years and having served on the building committee and then the board of directors, I can believe that. When I was involved in the condo, most of the board (and most of the residents) were very stringy about spending any money on actual repairs. They were willing to paint the buildings every few years (or a rotating basis -- it was a large condo), but actually repairing anything under the surface just wasn't on their radar.
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https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1031245430/surfside-condo-collapse-corrosion
Problems with the concrete, rebar and corrosion.
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https://www.npr.org/2021/08/26/1031245430/surfside-condo-collapse-corrosion
Problems with the concrete, rebar and corrosion.
That is scary.
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Did the builder use substandard material?
Can that even be found out?
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Did the builder use substandard material?
Can that even be found out?
Doubtful (either question). The environment there causes that deterioration. They condo board failed to keep up on maintenance, or make repairs when they should have.
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Doubtful (either question). The environment there causes that deterioration. They condo board failed to keep up on maintenance, or make repairs when they should have.
Swampland is just plain hard on any sort of structure. I probably put it second only to salt water environments for aggressiveness in rot and rust.
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I'm guessing every administrative body in all the high-rises in South Florida have been run ragged by their members demanding inspections and repairs if needed.
It would be interesting to find out just how many buildings are in bad shape, and what is being done about them.
It is hard to imagine that no other building is in a bad way.
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I'm guessing every administrative body in all the high-rises in South Florida have been run ragged by their members demanding inspections and repairs if needed.
It would be interesting to find out just how many buildings are in bad shape, and what is being done about them.
It is hard to imagine that no other building is in a bad way.
Miami-Dade County has already evacuated at least one other high-rise condo building as a result of the post-Surfside collapse.
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Miami-Dade County has already evacuated at least one other high-rise condo building as a result of the post-Surfside collapse.
I don’t know much about condos except that they are basically apartments that you buy outright vs renting so what are the recourses for owners?
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I don’t know much about condos except that they are basically apartments that you buy outright vs renting so what are the recourses for owners?
Sue?
I bet there is a contract that says the owners will pay $X per month for Y services. Hopefully, those Y services include complete maintenance on the building.
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I never had a condo, but I didn't own a town home once. There was a $200 monthly maintenance fee that paid for maintaining the grounds and general maintenance. In the 3 years I was in that house, they came through and replaced the roof and a bunch of the wood siding and trim. They had all that stuff budgeted.
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I don’t know much about condos except that they are basically apartments that you buy outright vs renting so what are the recourses for owners?
Condominiums are owned by associations, which are made up of the unit owners. The association officers are elected by the unit officers and charged with managing the property. Most condo boards hire professional property management companies to take care of that for them. Having worked as a consultant to a number of property management companies, I know that some are better than others. But the condo board of directors ultimately controls the purse strings, so unless they budget for something and appropriate the funds, the management company can't do it.
If the management company sees that the concrete columns in the basement garage are deteriorating and they recommend spending $100,000 to address the worst of it, but the condo board is more concerned about "image" and decides to spend that $100,000 to replace the marble floor tiles in the main lobby ... well, that's how you get a Surfside collapse.
Remember, the twin to the building that collapsed is only two (or three?) buildings to the north. It's reported to be in much better condition -- it's probably not a coincidence that it's run by a different board of directors.
How all this is going to play out legally is going to be interesting to watch. It has another wrinkle, too -- some of the units may not be occupied by the owners, they may be rented out. So then the occupant looks to the unit owner, and the unit owner looks to the condo association -- of which he is a part.
Messy.
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A collapse that occurred back in the 90s is a story of fail after fail after fail.
A Brief History of: The Sampoong Department Store Collapse (Documentary)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5idPqAlLGU
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A collapse that occurred back in the 90s is a story of fail after fail after fail.
A Brief History of: The Sampoong Department Store Collapse (Documentary)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5idPqAlLGU
Famous collapse, but a lousy video. The narrator has no idea what he's talking about.
Example, at 5:30 he talks about putting three 15-ton a/c units on the roof. I'm pretty certain that those units didn't weigh 30,000 pounds (or, since he's using metric, 15 long tons would be 33,000 pounds). I strongly suspect that "15 tons" is a reference to their cooling capacity, not their physical weight.
I had to stop watching at that point.
The Wikipedia article makes the same claim, though, so I may be wrong. But I've been involved in a lot of construction projects and I've seen a lot of rooftop air handling units -- including some that were placed by helicopter. Those weights just don't sound right.
Nonetheless, the department store collapse wasn't an "accident." It was a direct result of greed and intentional breaking of rules. From Wikipedia:
Five hours before the collapse, the first of several loud bangs was heard emanating from the top floors, as the vibration of the air conditioning caused the cracks in the slabs to widen further. Amid customer complaints of vibration, the air conditioning was turned off, but the cracks in the floors had already grown to 10 cm wide. Around then, it was realized that collapse of the building was inevitable, and an emergency board meeting was held. The directors suggested to Lee [the head of the department store company] that all customers should be evacuated, but Lee angrily refused to do so for fear of revenue losses. However, Lee himself left the building safely before the collapse occurred.[6] He did not even inform his own daughter-in-law, Chu Kyung Young, who was one of the employees in the building, of the imminent danger. She became trapped in the rubble and was rescued only days later.
Quite the guy, Mr. Lee.
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Lawsuit saying the construction of a condo tower next door is at least partially to blame.
Construction of luxury condo just feet away weakened frail Champlain Towers, lawsuit says
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article255872896.html#storylink=cpy
Neighbor Caused Surfside Collapse Lawsuit Alleges - Lawsuit Analysis Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2VUNMWxkd0
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Lawsuit saying the construction of a condo tower next door is at least partially to blame.
Construction of luxury condo just feet away weakened frail Champlain Towers, lawsuit says
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article255872896.html#storylink=cpy
Neighbor Caused Surfside Collapse Lawsuit Alleges - Lawsuit Analysis Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2VUNMWxkd0
Driving piles right next door would create some vibration, but it seems to me that only makes the building's foundation seem that much more weak and prone to failure.
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https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/31/us/miami-dade-building-collapse-settlement/index.html
$ 83 million settlement.
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https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/31/us/miami-dade-building-collapse-settlement/index.html
$ 83 million settlement.
That was quick.
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This popped up in my YT feed this morning.
According to this code violations in the way the rebar was used and column loading. Plus questions on the pool deck loading
They're eyeballing the other tower.
Champlain Towers South Condo Design 50% BELOW Code! NIST Update
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgSitQ9iF_E&t=10s
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nm
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This popped up in my YT feed this morning.
According to this code violations in the way the rebar was used and column loading. Plus questions on the pool deck loading
They're eyeballing the other tower.
Champlain Towers South Condo Design 50% BELOW Code! NIST Update
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgSitQ9iF_E&t=10s
Other than being a YouTube sensationalist, who is Jeff Ostroff, and why do people pay any attention to him?
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A quick google says that he's an engineer. Haven't drilled down to figure out what kind of engineer.
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I did a search and I found that he is a YouTube "influencer," but I found nothing to suggest that he is actually a licensed professional engineer.
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Is what he is saying invalid? Much of it is what is coming out of the investigation.
This subject matter is bit out of my comfort zone and I'm pretty much just passing along stuff.
If you're seeing some red herrings please let us know.
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Found this
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffostroff?original_referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
Experience
Youtube Creator Graphic
YouTube Influencer (425K subs): DIY Construction, Engineering, Tools, Disasters
Youtube Creator
Dec 2006 - Present16 years 9 months
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
CarBuyingTips.com Graphic
CEO & Co-founder CarBuyingTips.com, Consumer Advocate, Blogger SEO Marketer
CarBuyingTips.com
Mar 1997 - Present26 years 6 months
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Motorola Graphic
Senior Design Engineer
Motorola
Jun 1994 - Apr 20038 years 11 months
Plantation, FL
Ascom Graphic
Electrical Engineer
Ascom
Oct 1987 - Mar 19946 years 6 months
Boca Raton, FL
IBM SEDAB Graphic
Graduate Research Assistant
IBM SEDAB
May 1986 - Sep 19871 year 5 months
Boca Raton, FL
Education
Florida Atlantic University Graphic
Florida Atlantic University
BSEE
1984 - 1987
Florida Atlantic Universisty Graphic
Florida Atlantic Universisty
BSEE
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It seems to me his video is from the POV of a knowledgeable person, but not an expert. He is posting video cuts of experts or officials. He sounds like he has some knowledge of structural stuff, but I am not an expert. =)
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It seems to me his video is from the POV of a knowledgeable person, but not an expert. He is posting video cuts of experts or officials. He sounds like he has some knowledge of structural stuff, but I am not an expert. =)
A joke that works verbally but not in written form
What is an expert?
X = Unknown quantity. Spurt = Well.... you know
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Is what he is saying invalid? Much of it is what is coming out of the investigation.
This subject matter is bit out of my comfort zone and I'm pretty much just passing along stuff.
If you're seeing some red herrings please let us know.
SOME of what he said is valid. He quoted correctly from the videos of the meeting (by playing them), but IMHO most of his conclusions are unsupported extrapolations. And some of his statements are simply wrong.
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SOME of what he said is valid. He quoted correctly from the videos of the meeting (by playing them), but IMHO most of his conclusions are unsupported extrapolations. And some of his statements are simply wrong.
So..... you are saying YouTube is 75% more accurate than the mainstream news. =D
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So..... you are saying YouTube is 75% more accurate than the mainstream news. =D
I didn't attempt to quantify it. If I had to do so, I'd put YouTube at perhaps 50.1% more accurate that the lamestream media.