Author Topic: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?  (Read 4807 times)

roo_ster

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Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« on: December 28, 2010, 10:38:18 AM »
Due to the Politics Place hiatus, let us focus on the economic & social aspects of my referenced article, rather than the political mechanics.  IMO, there is plenty to chew on on those two limited fronts.

http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/kausfiles/2010/12/27/obama-and-inequality-no-new-brazils.html

"There are two big questions to ask...opponents of income inequality.
1) What, exactly, is it about greater economic inequality that's so bad?
and
2) What you gonna do about it?"


1) My own answer is that economic inequality is not bad in and of itself any more than water is bad.  Both are part & parcel of reality and neither can be eliminated and still have a functioning reality/society/economy.  Also, like water, too much of it in the wrong places & times can be dangerous to people and edifices (both physical and social). 

Like the author writes: "No New Brazils!"  The inequality in Brazil (and many LA countries) is so severe, endemic, and destructive that both top and bottom have their liberties seriously curtailed by the reality of crime...and there is very little "middle."  Brazil is an example of income equality so out of whack that it is destructive...and the model that cities like Los Angeles are emulating, as their middle classes flee and only the top & bottom remain.

2) I think the author is generally on the right track.  Reducing income equality by penalizing top earners is asinine & counter-productive.  What ends up happening is freezing social movement and slowing overall growth.  The increased rules/penalties keep folks on the bottom from moving up and political connections keep the top from moving down.

So, the focus has to be on improving the bottom, rather than smashing down the top.  The usual mantra is "education & training!"  Well, half of folks (and likely more than hapf of the "bottom") are of below average intelligence.  They can improve their economic value only so much.  Also, this sort fo thing takes a lot of time.

The author's solution is to tighten up the bottom of the labor market by halting illegal immigration(1), the vast majority of whom compete at the bottom of the labor market.  IOW, reduce the supply of imported un/semi-skilled labor and the cost of un/semi-skilled labor ought to rise. 

I think the likely outcome is both a rise in costs at the bottom end of the labor market and more investment in capital to improve productivity in those sectors currently dependent on un/semi-skilled illegal alien labor. 







(1) Internationally-minded non-interventionists balk at this, saying it interferes with folks' right to seek employment and other folks' right to hire whomever they like.  They are correct insofar as it is "interference," but it is not interference with any "rights."  Our social obligations do not extend beyond our borders.  Nor do our social obligations extend to socializing the costs of illegal alien labor so as to allow those whose business models rely on such labor can make a profit.


Regards,

roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2010, 04:02:39 PM »
Quote
Well, half of folks (and likely more than hapf of the "bottom") are of below average intelligence.

'Average intelligence' is deliberately set so that 'average' intelligence passes through the median of actual results. The phrase is a meaningless platitude.

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2010, 05:20:10 PM »
As I've heard it put before....has anyone here ever been employed by a poor person? 
JD

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 05:21:47 PM »
'Average intelligence' is deliberately set so that 'average' intelligence passes through the median of actual results. The phrase is a meaningless platitude.

You are wrong and contradict yourself with your reply "It means THIS but is meaningless."

It not only has meaning, it has consequences.  Too many people forget both.  
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 05:25:36 PM »
So we're discussing politics without discussing politics?
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roo_ster

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 05:54:36 PM »
So we're discussing politics without discussing politics?

Not everything is politics, or at least it oughtn't be.

I think it is possible to have discussions about economics, morality, and other issues without going partisan. 

For instance, although the article referenced in has some political content, it is not necessary to go into the political maneuvers by this or that policritter to discuss social & economic aspects of income equality.   One could address the questions posed in the OP.
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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 06:09:53 PM »
Quote
has anyone here ever been employed by a poor person?
The company I work for has five and a half employees counting the owner. The company owes me about $30,000 in back pay alone. I wish my boss was rich.  :'(
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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2010, 06:10:57 PM »
But roo_ster, you already delved into politics in the original post. So good luck with that.

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HankB

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2010, 06:41:33 PM »
Income inequality?

The worth of a person's labor is worth EXACTLY what the highest bidder for that labor in a free competitive market is willing to pay - no more, no less.

Asserting that income ought to be "equal" is equivalent to saying that all work is of equal value, and not subject to the laws of supply and demand.

It isn't.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2010, 07:01:59 PM »
I don't see how income inequality is a bad thing in itself.  In fact, it's usually a good thing.

Let's start with a basic premise, that different people are different.  As relates to income inequality, this means that different people have different levels of willingness and ability to pursue wealth.   There will always be some people who have basically no interest or ability, and there will always be people who have a very high interest and/or ability.

These two types of people define the ends of the income distribution.  Those without the propensity to produce wealth will have essentially nothing, poverty being the default state of man, and those with the highest propensity will have the most income.

The amount of income inequality in a society is therefore a measure of how far your success can take you.

A society with low income inequality is one in which it is very difficult to rise above basic poverty, even if you have the ability and the motivation to flourish.  This is a society that is inherently limiting to its people.  

A society with high income inequality is one in which it is comparatively easy to rise above the default level, assuming you have the wherewithal to do so.  This is a society that doesn't limit people.

Which kind of society would you rather live in?

Of course,  we must also consider how the various members of a society advance themselves.  Do they advance through just means, dealing fairly with all, or do they advance through corruption, crime, fraud, or the like, taking advantage of others?  

A society that combines high income inequality with a culture of honesty and justice would seem to be the optimum.  
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 10:17:36 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2010, 09:35:33 PM »
In my old job (Atc), I saw brilliant people wither and fail. Certain talents and abilities are just worth more.  I sure as hell wouldn't do that job for the same cash as just any old job....
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2010, 10:32:54 PM »
Income inequality can be a sign of problems. When the rich get richer and everybody else gets poorer, you have a problem - money doesn't like to stagnate - it flows to the rich, the poor, and the middle class. When I buy something at WalMart, I help pay for minimum wage cashiers and stockers, for middle class managers, and for corporate fat cats. The capitalist notion is that economics need not be a zero-sum game. Theft is a ZSG. If the economy shows a ZSG, the economy is screwed up. Don't look at numbers, look at trends.

Trying to fix the inequality is a recipe for disaster. The easy way to solve this problem is to tax the hell out of the rich, like the Jimmy Carter days. That doesn't fix anything, that's just cooking the books.

P.S. Am I the only one who thought this thread said incest equality?

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2010, 11:56:17 PM »
Quote
The easy way to solve this problem is to tax the hell out of the rich, like the Jimmy Carter days. That doesn't fix anything, that's just cooking the books.

Taxing the hell outmof the rich won't solve it. The rich will just move. Like a recent article about New York rich moving to Texas or a few years ago Maryland thought they could "tax the hell out of the rich", the rich moved and Maryland LOST $$$.

It's simple to me. Little to no government involvement. Free market principles. If someone doesn't want to work, screw em.  Work or starve.

Last month when I was in CA, work related, I saw a series of interviews from corporate recruiters that were having problems filling $60-90K a year jobs. Why??  People would rather stay on unemployment benefits. That's lazy. There are jobs out there. The field I'm in, oilfield, is hiring like crazy. I don't see income inequality. I see lazy people everywhere. Work or starve to death. If you select the latter, do so quickly so I and others don't have to subsidize you lifestyle.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2010, 12:04:00 AM »
Quote
P.S. Am I the only one who thought this thread said incest equality?


Probably  ;)

Equal opportunity doesn't always mean equal results.
If a person works harder, by what ever definition you want to apply, their reward should be more than the person that just floats along in life.

Myself and my siblings are an intersting example.

We all grew up in the same house with the same basic opportunities available.
My older sister who is 50 years old has never held a job more than a few years, has at least 3 2 year degrees that I am aware of, has attended 3-4 trade school type deals funded either by mom and dad or the taxpayer or both. Raised her son sans father or child support on the dole. At 24 years of age he is an obnoxious piece of work that I can only barely tolerate and I expect to hear about him getting arrested or killed someday. She is currently attending some kind of beauty school, again. I don't think she has ever made as much as $30K  in any given year. She spent about 10 years driving on a suspended license while dad unknowingly kept her car insured. She was some put out with me when after I bailed her out of jail for driving on a suspended license I informed dad of the situation. I never did get paid back for the bail money.
She manages to find a way to blame pretty much the entire world for her situation and thinks the government should do more for poor people like her (she has a cell phone, TV, AC, computer, DSL internet, cable service and a car)

Little brother who is 47 years old has had 2 or 3 wives, I'm not sure if #3 was ever formalized. Spent 8 years in the Navy receiving essentially the same electronics training I got. He lost one job due to a plant closing and with some pushing from me he landed a job with the same company I now work for. he managed to get himself fired about 6 years ago. He currently works at a place that builds heat exchangers operating a fin tube machine for something less than $15 an hour and is oddly jealous of my son that earns several $$ an hour more than him working for a Wally World distribution center.
He thinks the mid '80s Cameros were the best car ever made and has 4 of them in various conditions of operability and ugliness. He spends a good deal of his free time scavenging parts from one to another in a sort of round robin game. He has lost 1 house to foreclosure and at least 1 and maybe 2 cars to repo. He currently lives in a house that dad sold him for way below value and constantly complains about how unfair life is. He has 2 pretty decent kids, one still in high school. Both of them will probably do all right.

Myself, I haven't always made the right financial decisions and I've paid the price for it but I've always managed to keep the bills paid and never had anything repo'd. 12 years in the Navy and I've used my training in electronics and computers to make a pretty decent living for someone that never attended any college. My wife and I will gross a little over $100K this year between us. We've got a comfortable house on a small acerage in the country, we ptt a bit of money in savings every month outside of my 401K and after the bills are paid we  probably spend more enjoying life than we should, need to put more into savings. I also work my land to both produce a significant quantity of the food we eat and to sell enough to make a small profit.
When things suck I tend to look in the mirror and blame the guy responsible.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2010, 01:25:41 AM »
You are wrong and contradict yourself with your reply "It means THIS but is meaningless."

It not only has meaning, it has consequences.  Too many people forget both.  

No, it doesn't mean what you implied: that most people are stupid.

It means: "We defined 'average' intelligence (i.e. IQ-100) so it passes through the median of the existing results'. We continue to redefine it each year so it stays there."

But because average intelligence - even in this form of grading - is a range, 90-110 and not a single line, the majority of people who get tested on the bell-curve are actually of average or above average intelligence. This is if you believe the bell-curve stuff.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2010, 01:27:49 AM »
Quote
has anyone here ever been employed by a poor person?

*raises hand*

Anybody who provides services to poor people is employed by them.

People like Bill Gates? Employed by average-income people who buy Windows computers.

Translation agencies and translators? Employed by average-income people who need documents translated.

McDonalds? Employed by all the people wolfing down supesized hamburgers.

It cuts both ways.
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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2010, 01:49:23 AM »
As Milton Freidman (and Adam Smith) would point out the Rule of Law is one of the primary items a society must have to develop.
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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2010, 01:57:30 AM »
*raises hand*

Anybody who provides services to poor people is employed by them.

People like Bill Gates? Employed by average-income people who buy Windows computers.

Translation agencies and translators? Employed by average-income people who need documents translated.

McDonalds? Employed by all the people wolfing down supesized hamburgers.

It cuts both ways.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2010, 02:01:01 AM »
"To get rich, you need to do what other people want you to do."
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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2010, 02:05:03 AM »
Taxing the hell outmof the rich won't solve it. The rich will just move. Like a recent article about New York rich moving to Texas or a few years ago Maryland thought they could "tax the hell out of the rich", the rich moved and Maryland LOST $$$.

It's simple to me. Little to no government involvement. Free market principles. If someone doesn't want to work, screw em.  Work or starve.

Last month when I was in CA, work related, I saw a series of interviews from corporate recruiters that were having problems filling $60-90K a year jobs. Why??  People would rather stay on unemployment benefits. That's lazy. There are jobs out there. The field I'm in, oilfield, is hiring like crazy. I don't see income inequality. I see lazy people everywhere. Work or starve to death. If you select the latter, do so quickly so I and others don't have to subsidize you lifestyle.

We are allowing them to be lazy, which tells me that not only does taxing the rich not solve the problem; giving to the poor doesn't either! 

I can't count the number of times I've heard (from old buddies for example): "I wish I could go back to school.  I'm so jealous that you have a degree." or something similar.  Every time, I tell the person that they just need to apply themselves and they too can have a degree, hopefully in something not stupid.  That's pretty much where I lose 90% of them.  The other 10% keep listening and realize that they could, but just never take the time to do it.  I've yet to convince anyone, which is strange, considering they've come to me convinced already, just unwilling to put forth the effort. 

I see "spangers" ("spare some change?") all the time who are young, healthy individuals who are so damn lazy they beg for money.  I don't get it, and frankly, I'm not that nice to them. 
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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2010, 02:05:50 AM »
Quote
Quote
has anyone here ever been employed by a poor person?

*raises hand*

Anybody who provides services to poor people is employed by them.

People like Bill Gates? Employed by average-income people who buy Windows computers.

Translation agencies and translators? Employed by average-income people who need documents translated.

McDonalds? Employed by all the people wolfing down supesized hamburgers.

It cuts both ways.

You are correct. But there is not a gun to any ones head making them buy that computer or eat that crappy hamburger. It does go both ways, supply and demand. And nothing is stopping anyone from inventing a new computer OS or new hamburger. And just because someone makes a *expletive deleted* ton of money doesn't mean a government needs to tax the hell out of them to provide for the folks who don't make much money, for what ever reason life has dealt them.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2010, 03:13:15 AM »
What's your point? I've never said that.

I dislike, however, the attitude that people who are not rich are somehow failed in the system of capitalism. Capitalism isn't only for rich people. Capitalism is for everybody.

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2010, 09:24:42 AM »
What's your point? I've never said that.

I dislike, however, the attitude that people who are not rich are somehow failed in the system of capitalism. Capitalism isn't only for rich people. Capitalism is for everybody.



Which is my point.  If you're happy just being an employee, you'll work for someone who has money.  There are also plenty of people enjoying the fruits of capitalisim who aren't rich.  But the baker shouldn't automatically make the same as the police officer, car salesman, dishwasher, doctor, lawyer, and teacher.  A system that devalues labor deflates the worth of the difficult, and few will do the difficult.  When people stop working hard at the difficult, the system will crumble. 
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2010, 12:58:27 PM »


Hmm, I see very few folks who think income equality is a problem in any sense.

Economically
Oddly enough, I think that some of the folks on the left have a point: income equality has grown over time.  I think that is quantifiable and one of several uncontroversial metrics show as much.  Where I differ with folks on the left is the cause and meaning of that equality. 

On the top end, technical innovation has increased the resources sharp, motivated, and fortunate people can muster and increased the practical maximum income/revenue.  In addition, they are growing the economy while taking a healthy share.  We all would be poorer without Sam Walton & Bill Gates.

On the bottom end, we have let in millions of dirt poor illegal aliens with poor skills and no English.  They have swelled the ranks of the poor and driven down the wages of Americans already in that economic strata.  Folks squawk about how we still have a poverty rate of X%.  Well, when we continually import poor folks with no skills, that rate is not going to fall much.


Socially
A system that devalues labor deflates the worth of the difficult, and few will do the difficult.  When people stop working hard at the difficult, the system will crumble. 

I think we are quickly approaching de Tocqueville's Kentucky. 

When he floated down the Ohio River, he saw Ohio on the right and Kentucky on the left.   The terrain & natural resources were interchangeable.  What was different was the cultures: on the right, no slavery and on the left, slavery.  On the right, he saw everyone working and industrious, at every level of job, from laborer to manager.  On the right, he saw burgeoning industry as all worked and were rewarded.  On the left, he saw a lack of development. On the left, he saw that only the slaves busted their humps and non-slaves considered such heavy toil beneath themselves. 

Today, in those places where illegal aliens have taken the heavy labor jobs and made such occupations less socially acceptable to Americans.  Like JJ wrote, we have devalued labor, both in wages and socially.  Fewer Americans, many of whom have not the talents to do much more than such jobs, are willing to do them. 

Americans in that social strata get a lesser wage than previously and no respect for working.  Why bother, when they can get no respect for sitting around on the dole?

Is There No Level of Economic/Social Inequality That Is Worrisome?

I previously mentioned Brazil, where I think inequality (social & economic) is most definitely a serious problem.  No one here has engaged that example, despite several of our largest metro areas trending that way(1).  I'm not sure why, maybe because it is too messy or tough a problem that can not be addressed with either anecdote or textbook principle.

Brazil and many LA countries are countries without a robust middle class.  Tehre is only the masses of poor and the thin crust of the affluent.  Is this a problem? 

On the continuum of inequality, where colonial/post-American revolutionary America was least unequal (majority land owning farmer class) to where only one or a few on top have the economic wherewithal to exercise liberties (such as Saudi Arabia) and the rest are dirt poor, is there any point along that continuum where any of y'all would say, "Here, and no further!"  Be that motivated by morality (can not bear to see the USA as a feudal or latin society) or practicality (such deep inequality curtails movement and liberties of both dirt poor and affluent).






(1) When folks with engineering degrees making $100K+ can no longer live near work in Los Angeles, but must commute 2-3 hours each way, I think it is safe to say they have driven out the middle class (lower, middle, and upper middle classes).
Regards,

roo_ster

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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Income Equality: Problem? If So, What to Do?
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2010, 01:14:29 PM »
Frighteningly enough, I think Micro and Jamis are arguing the same coin, just from different sides.  

Here's one of the many problems with this "income inequality" debate.  And I think that Jamis kinda touched on it.  If you tell a doctor that after 7-11 years of schooling, residency, etc. that he can't make more than, say, Bob the plumber next door, said Dr. isn't going to be willing to go through all the years of schooling/residency/etc.  He's gonna go join the pipe-fitters union, get his card, and become a plumber.  If you tell the civil engineer, the architect, or the materials analyst the same thing, guess what, pretty soon we'll all be living in mud huts with great plumbing and crappy healthcare.

As a society, we determine that the skilled labor put out by a certain subset of society is more valuable than the unskilled labor of other subsets of society.  We reward the time, effort, and intelligence required to obtain those skills by making their labor more valuable.  (this is not to say that plumbers are unskilled labor, i was just using them as someone who makes a good living, but not as good as an MD).  

So yes, capitalism is for everybody.  But the fact is, if you either don't have the skills, or don't have the desire or ability to obtain those skills, don't expect to make the same amount of money as someone who DOES possess the skills.  Not everyone can be a doctor, or lawyer, or even a plumber or electrician.  Nor could society afford for us all to be doctors, or lawyers or whatever.  
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