Author Topic: A good way to get yourself shot  (Read 5174 times)

Balog

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A good way to get yourself shot
« on: August 23, 2016, 07:58:42 PM »
The inimitable Tam on the "things that are legal but idiotic" beat. http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2016/08/breaking-news.html?m=1
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Devonai

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2016, 08:35:51 PM »
I would add moving from a defensible to an indefensible position to the list of bad ideas.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2016, 09:08:58 PM »
She's always great.

Perd Hapley

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2016, 09:30:09 PM »
You guys complained about that other homeowner firing a warning shot from his garage, and now you complain, because this guy went outside to fire the warning shot (as required by law), and to secure his perimeter. Make up your minds.
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MechAg94

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2016, 09:56:40 PM »
Generally the police don't sneak into the area.  There is no need to wait for the police to tell you to drop the gun. 

That said, did the police just shoot as soon as he turned?  That is a bit trigger happy. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Perd Hapley

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2016, 10:35:21 PM »
Generally the police don't sneak into the area.  There is no need to wait for the police to tell you to drop the gun. 

That said, did the police just shoot as soon as he turned?  That is a bit trigger happy. 


Is it? If they don't shoot when the guy with the gun in his hand turns to face them, what are they waiting for? (Keep in mind they were looking for an armed suspect.)
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Andiron

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Hawkmoon

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2016, 11:41:47 PM »
Effing morons ...

Quote
Neighbors blasted the decision to ‘shoot first, ask questions’ later.

‘You’re pulling someone over who is deaf, they are handicapped. To me, what happened is totally unacceptable,’ neighbor Mark Barringer told the local station.

They should have de-escalated and been trained to realize that this is an entirely different situation.

All drivers should be taught that when pulled over, stay in the vehicle with your hands visible. This guy got OUT of the vehicle and apparently started toward the officer -- and perhaps was waving his hands around. To HIM it was communicating -- to the officer it communicated "THREAT!"

As for the neighbor -- how the heck to do "train" a police officer to "realize this is an entirely different situation" when the officer has to be very aware that a second's hesitation may get him shot? It was a tragic incident, but deaf people who drive need to respond to a traffic stop just like the rest of us.
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Balog

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2016, 01:15:50 AM »
I'd say not using terror porn "ZOMG you could be shot if you hesitate a split second!" training would be a good start. Probably a lot fewer deaf guys getting shot, non English speaking Indian grandpas pile driven into quadrapalegicy, and girls in diabetic comas tased.
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

De Selby

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2016, 08:04:57 AM »
I'd say not using terror porn "ZOMG you could be shot if you hesitate a split second!" training would be a good start. Probably a lot fewer deaf guys getting shot, non English speaking Indian grandpas pile driven into quadrapalegicy, and girls in diabetic comas tased.

This.  The odds that a random stop includes an attempted cop killer have got to be vanishingly low.  "Prepare for the worst" has costs - when the prep causes more deaths than the actual "worst", probably time to rethink priorities.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Hawkmoon

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2016, 10:38:32 AM »
^^^ All true and all correct.

Basically, we are (again) seeing the inevitable result of the new police training, in which officers are taught that enforcing "compliance" takes precedence over communicating. It's what they teach in the academies these days, and too many of these stories include quotations either from an officer or from his/her superiors that the victim was not "complying" with the officer's orders.

I've seen it in action to a ridiculous extreme. A few years ago I had occasion to call the firearms unit of my state's State Police, to ask a routine, administrative question. My call was taken by a female state trooper. The first thing she asked was my name and date of birth. Now, I know they use name and date of birth as the identifiers when writing a report, but she was the "dope of the day," just sitting there to respond to questions. No crime was in progress and no crime was being reported, so there was no report to be written.

I declined to answer, and she repeated the demand. I declined again, and she repeated the demand again. This went on for several iterations, and with each repetition her voice became louder and more strident. I knew what was going on -- I could hear her "command voice" training kicking into play.

Except we weren't on the street, and she didn't have any way to enforce her demands with a gun, taser, or dog. So I hung up. Fifteen minutes later, I called back and was connected to the sergeant in charge of the unit. We had a nice, fifteen minute chat, he answered my questions, and I was never asked for my name and date of birth.

It's all in the training, and the training model today is dangerous to all involved.
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tokugawa

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2016, 11:24:48 AM »
That story is precisely why I do not respond to my neighbors security alarm- I used to be listed as a contact so if the alarm went off (99% of the time a false alarm) I would walk over and look around. I gave that up- last thing I want is to be walking around a place that is going to have imminent police response to a "break in" call. 

 Although our sheriffs seem to be less on a hair trigger than a lot of these stories going around.




MechAg94

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2016, 02:41:12 PM »
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3753378/North-Carolina-state-trooper-shoots-dead-deaf-mute-man.html#ixzz4I7eqVGG3

What if said guy can't hear the .gov minion at all?
If that is the same story I heard about yesterday (how many deaf people are shot in traffic stops?), I heard the guy declined to pull over for multiple miles.  He wasn't shot as soon as he got out of the car, there was some sort of physical struggle before that.  He also had some sort of criminal history with violence, but I don't recall what was mentioned.  The point of what I heard was the narrative being reported in the media was not true.
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MechAg94

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2016, 02:43:22 PM »

Is it? If they don't shoot when the guy with the gun in his hand turns to face them, what are they waiting for? (Keep in mind they were looking for an armed suspect.)
What I pictured was a guy with a gun in his hand hanging at his side.  I realize that is still dangerous, but if the cops are at a reasonable distance as they ought to be, then challenging him first before blasting away would be appropriate.  If he was pointing the gun at them, then I fully understand the response. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Perd Hapley

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2016, 03:13:21 PM »
What I pictured was a guy with a gun in his hand hanging at his side.  I realize that is still dangerous, but if the cops are at a reasonable distance as they ought to be, then challenging him first before blasting away would be appropriate.  If he was pointing the gun at them, then I fully understand the response. 

I think I agree with that. I was envisioning him holding the gun in such a way that it was leveled at whatever he was facing. If it was hanging down at his side, then perhaps the police were a bit trigger-happy.
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KD5NRH

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2016, 03:16:12 PM »
If that is the same story I heard about yesterday (how many deaf people are shot in traffic stops?), I heard the guy declined to pull over for multiple miles.

Failure to properly scan one's mirrors isn't a death penalty offense.  With the level of soundproofing in many cars today, and loud stereos, I'm surprised there aren't a lot more people picked up for failing to stop for several miles when they legitimately didn't notice the cop at all.

RevDisk

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2016, 04:16:34 PM »
I declined to answer, and she repeated the demand. I declined again, and she repeated the demand again. This went on for several iterations, and with each repetition her voice became louder and more strident. I knew what was going on -- I could hear her "command voice" training kicking into play.

Squad Leader: Simon Phoenix! Lie down with your hands behind your back.
Simon Phoenix: What's this? Six of you. Such nice, tidy uniforms. Oh I'm so scared!
[the Police Officers look at each other]
Simon Phoenix: What you guys don't have sarcasm anymore?
[Police Officer talks to his automated assistant]
Squad Leader: Maniac has responded with a scornful remark.
Automated assistant: Approach, and repeat ultimatum in an even firmer tone of voice. Add the words, "or else".

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MechAg94

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2016, 04:22:54 PM »
Failure to properly scan one's mirrors isn't a death penalty offense.  With the level of soundproofing in many cars today, and loud stereos, I'm surprised there aren't a lot more people picked up for failing to stop for several miles when they legitimately didn't notice the cop at all.
He was deaf so none of that matters.  I could understand a few hundred yards or half a mile, but if a car with big flashing strobe lights is right behind you, you would notice. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

KD5NRH

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2016, 04:57:09 PM »
He was deaf so none of that matters.  I could understand a few hundred yards or half a mile, but if a car with big flashing strobe lights is right behind you, you would notice.

My ex wife got chewed out for not noticing a trooper behind her for six miles.  She had the stereo cranked up too loud to hear the siren, and was awful about checking mirrors, though in fairness, it was a two lane road with not much reason to check; no other lanes to change to, etc.  An associate who spent 4 years with DPS said he got a couple of those just about every day.

Hawkmoon

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2016, 05:00:02 PM »
Squad Leader: Simon Phoenix! Lie down with your hands behind your back.
Simon Phoenix: What's this? Six of you. Such nice, tidy uniforms. Oh I'm so scared!
[the Police Officers look at each other]
Simon Phoenix: What you guys don't have sarcasm anymore?
[Police Officer talks to his automated assistant]
Squad Leader: Maniac has responded with a scornful remark.
Automated assistant: Approach, and repeat ultimatum in an even firmer tone of voice. Add the words, "or else".

One of the best scenes from a very funny movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb21_qI90pE
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Hawkmoon

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2016, 05:03:31 PM »
My ex wife got chewed out for not noticing a trooper behind her for six miles.  She had the stereo cranked up too loud to hear the siren, and was awful about checking mirrors, though in fairness, it was a two lane road with not much reason to check; no other lanes to change to, etc.  An associate who spent 4 years with DPS said he got a couple of those just about every day.

Different strokes for different folks. I recently discovered that I use the rear view mirror a LOT more than I realized. The little tab popped off my windshield, leaving me with no interior rear view mirror for a couple of days, until I got an adhesive kit and reinstalled it. I found driving without knowing who/what was behind me to be very unnerving.

"Stereo"? What is this "stereo" of which you speak? Are there people who listen to radios and such while driving? What a novel concept ...
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KD5NRH

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2016, 05:18:50 PM »
Different strokes for different folks. I recently discovered that I use the rear view mirror a LOT more than I realized. The little tab popped off my windshield, leaving me with no interior rear view mirror for a couple of days, until I got an adhesive kit and reinstalled it. I found driving without knowing who/what was behind me to be very unnerving.

Same here, and when I changed handlebars on the bicycle, my old mirror wouldn't work on the new ones, (unless I just really wanted to watch my junk rock as I pedal) and I felt half blind until I found one that would work.  If it's bumped in between rides, I notice within a few yards.  OTOH, I know people who have driven hundreds of miles before even noticing that the glass was gone from one of their side mirrors, or the inside one was pointed at the ceiling.

MechAg94

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2016, 05:34:20 PM »
Looking at some articles, the police say there was an "altercation" between the deaf guy and the officer, but haven't said anything else.  Neighbors are saying he was shot as soon as he left his car. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Devonai

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2016, 08:57:48 PM »
You guys complained about that other homeowner firing a warning shot from his garage, and now you complain, because this guy went outside to fire the warning shot (as required by law), and to secure his perimeter. Make up your minds.

I don't think I commented on the former, and as for the latter, securing a perimeter at night requires a fire team, flares, and overwatch (range card optional).  Alone, I'm locking the doors and waiting for the cops.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A good way to get yourself shot
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2016, 11:22:40 PM »
I don't think I commented on the former, and as for the latter, securing a perimeter at night requires a fire team, flares, and overwatch (range card optional).  Alone, I'm locking the doors and waiting for the cops.


I believe the accepted method, as required by law, is to fire two blasts into the air, from a side-by-side shotgun, and then load up your standard, five-shot military rifle with rubber bullets. Rubber bullets can be obtained at any hardware store. They look like this.



Secure your perimeter!!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 01:20:20 AM by fistful »
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