Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: cassandra and sara's daddy on February 02, 2015, 07:25:03 PM
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This ones an eye doctor
I think some folks have heard of him
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/rand-paul-vaccines-can-lead-mental-disorders-n298821
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That is...... very carefully edited.
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That is...... very carefully edited.
No kidding.
CSD, what elements of Paul's position precisely do you take issue with? The part about him believing vaccines are good? Or that parents should have the choice of vaccinating their children? Or that he has heard of cases of apparent correlation (although no proven causation, obviously) between vaccines and disorders?
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It looks like he went too far in trying to accommodate the anti-vaxxers. He should have just said they should be voluntary, and let it go at that.
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It was the mental disorders part.
I read it twice still couldn't believe he said it.
I don't agree about voluntary but at least i can see how he could get there. But the rest? So sad. You see how quick Christie back peddled?
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Here's a quote
Benjamin Franklin. "In 1736 I lost one of my sons, a fine boy of four years old, by the small-pox, taken in the common way. I long regretted bitterly, and still regret that I had not given it to him by inoculation. This I mention for the sake of parents who omit that operation, on the supposition that they should never forgive themselves if a child died under it; my example showing that the regret may be the same either way, and that, therefore, the safer path should be chosen.”
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I'm not arguing vaccines are a bad idea. I think they are a good thing. But I think the parent should have some input. The state doesn't own our children. Parents own the children.
Seems right to me. My youngest is getting a batch of them Friday.
I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines.
While I agree with fistful that this is going too far to placate nutters as it appears to lend credence to their claims, he is factually absolutely correct. Some kids appear normal and at some point after receiving their vaccines develop issues. My sister has a friend whose son fits that description precisely. That doesn't mean that the vaccine was to blame, nor even if it were to blame that it is - all things considered - a net negative.
You are letting your anti-Paul bias run roughshod over your reading comprehension and capacity for nuance.
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From Bloomberg:
UPDATE: A few hours after this story went up, Kentucky Senator Rand Paul appeared on CNBC and was asked to clarify if he thought most vaccines should be voluntary.
"I guess being for freedom would be really unusual?" Paul said, sarcastically. "I guess I don't understand the point, as to why that would be controversial."
As he clarified, he mostly stuck to what he'd said on talk radio today. Only toward the end of his answer did he explain the dangers, as he saw them, in vaccinating children.
"I've heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines," said Paul. "I'm not arguing vaccines are a bad idea. I think they're a good thing. But I think the parents should have some input."
From Ace of Spades:
The only freedom that matters is the Freedom to Be Wrong.
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People should be free, to the maximum extent bearable, to be as foolish, shortsighted, gullible and dumb as people naturally are.
We do not go looking for some cheap justification to demonstrate our social distaste for some people by criminalizing their choices.
By those lights -- which I think should be standard conservatism, not some kind of fringe libertarianism -- I see nothing wrong with Christie's statement.
He said that there must be a "balance" when taking actions which force people to undergo medical treatments to which they object.
Think about how serious that is -- forcing someone's kid to undergo a medical treatment to which they object.
The end of Ace's take is not flattering, even though I disagree with it somewhat I post it here because he makes a very salient point about Rand's electability:
why are you encouraging them to believe that vaccines cause mental retardation?
And you're a doctor, for God's sakes.
Eh, the Paul bunch, what can you do? They are John Bircher paleocon paranoids and always have been.
Rand's just his dad with a little bit of an internal editor.
I had had hope for Rand Paul and was open to his candidacy, but every time he or his conspiracy-addled lunatic father open their mouths, I cringe more.
The family has gotten politically rich off the same motto as that of the Ghostbusters:
We Are Prepared To Believe You.
Paul, Inc., exists because the cadre of paranoids and conspiracists likes to be flattered as having raised "Serious Questions," and will vote for anyone (and donate, and Subscribe to Your Newsletters) who so flatters them.
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Seems right to me. My youngest is getting a batch of them Friday.
While I agree with fistful that this is going too far to placate nutters as it appears to lend credence to their claims, he is factually absolutely correct. Some kids appear normal and at some point after receiving their vaccines develop issues. My sister has a friend whose son fits that description precisely. That doesn't mean that the vaccine was to blame, nor even if it were to blame that it is - all things considered - a net negative.
You are letting your anti-Paul bias run roughshod over your reading comprehension and capacity for nuance.
I'm betting that nearly 100% of the kids with 'mental disorders' also ate vegetables in one form or another.... Therefore, vegetables cause autism.
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I think the chickenpox vaccine should be optional. The HPV vaccine (Gardasil) should be optional and offered to both sexes, not just females. I don't really have an opinion about some of the others, like hepatitis, meningitis, and pneumonia.
Measles, polio, tetanus, pertussis, diphtheria, and a few others (like smallpox if it ever gets going again) should be mandatory.
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It's hard because some of the parents are do sincerely motivated. It's hard to tell me they are wrong . The quacks that are playing them? I could drag behind a truck.
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Yes if I had a boy he would get hpv.
That's a pretty reasonable vaccination schedule you suggest..... you must know someone in medicine. ......
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I'm betting that nearly 100% of the kids with 'mental disorders' also ate vegetables in one form or another.... Therefore, vegetables cause autism.
Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying. ;/
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And then this doc
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/ben-carson-vaccinations-philosophical-religious
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Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying. ;/
i wasn't really disagreeing with you, just throwing out an example where correlation=/=causation.
I've argued with the nutters on the subject of vaccination before.... nothing useful ever comes of it..
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I'm betting that nearly 100% of the kids with 'mental disorders' also ate vegetables in one form or another.... Therefore, vegetables cause autism.
[tinfoil]
It's the dihydrogen monoxide!!!!
Our public water supplies are full of it and the government put it there!!!!
Every single person that is exposed to DHMO will eventually die!!!!!
[tinfoil]
http://www.dhmo.org/ (http://www.dhmo.org/)
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Even if it destroys the life of an occasional child the herd immunity is worth it...
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The anti-vaxers may have a point about the number of vaccines a kid gets these days. 20-something vaccines by age 6 months, and the hep-B shot is given on day of birth. I don't remember it being nearly that many when my kid was a baby; she's 24 now.
But it seems MMR is the one they are all worked up over, and that's not until the kid is at least a year old.
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They are really pushing the whooping cough/tetanus vaccine.
I went in for a check up and next thing you know they were trying to vaccinate me.
Mentally I wasn't prepared so I took a pass and figured I'd look into it and get it next time I'm in the office.
Tetanus I've had but what's with the whooping cough? Really I'd prefer to just get the ones that are necessary to hold off pandemics.
What is necessary and what is corporate marketing based on peddling fear?
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I think the chickenpox vaccine should be optional. The HPV vaccine (Gardasil) should be optional and offered to both sexes, not just females. I don't really have an opinion about some of the others, like hepatitis, meningitis, and pneumonia.
Measles, polio, tetanus, pertussis, diphtheria, and a few others (like smallpox if it ever gets going again) should be mandatory.
I didn't even know there was a chickenpox virus. Are kids dying from chickenpox? I never knew of a pneumonia vaccine either.
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They are really pushing the whooping cough/tetanus vaccine.
I went in for a check up and next thing you know they were trying to vaccinate me.
Mentally I wasn't prepared so I took a pass and figured I'd look into it and get it next time I'm in the office.
Tetanus I've had but what's with the whooping cough? Really I'd prefer to just get the ones that are necessary to hold off pandemics.
What is necessary and what is corporate marketing based on peddling fear?
Whooping cough may be the next pandemic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis
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Be careful of dismissing the claims of the anti-vaxers. Stuff is bubbling just below the surface that will change things dramatically. This comment from a guy who was vaccinated out the ying-yang.
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The anti-vaxers may have a point about the number of vaccines a kid gets these days. 20-something vaccines by age 6 months, and the hep-B shot is given on day of birth. I don't remember it being nearly that many when my kid was a baby; she's 24 now.
But it seems MMR is the one they are all worked up over, and that's not until the kid is at least a year old.
Holy crap! I had no idea it was that many vaccines that early! I'm not sympathetic to the anti-vaccine crowd, but that's a lot of shots.
I may not be remembering some, but when I was a kid, I got vaccines for measles, mumps, and smallpox. I caught chicken pox from some kid in the neighborhood. I don't recall getting a tetanus shot until I was maybe 10 or 11.
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Be careful of dismissing the claims of the anti-vaxers. Stuff is bubbling just below the surface that will change things dramatically. This comment from a guy who was vaccinated out the ying-yang.
Over the last 7 years or so I've started taking a more proactive approach to my health. Diet, exercise and good sleeping habits etc.
I've had several health issues in the past where I was forced to realize that Dr's do a lot of guessing and often really can't help you other than alleviate symptoms.
While I accept them as an authority as compared to my limited knowledge they are a somewhat limited and fallible authority.
I'm not an anti vaxer but I'm not letting them insert any organisms into my blood stream without a little research and thought on my part.
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They don't get a separate needle for each shot.
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Pertussis is bad enough they have changed the protocol to allow pregnant women to get it so the kids carry some of that immunity till they can get their own shots
Much of the vaxxer movement is about selling supplements ala doc oz and doc mercola
And typically the vaxxer is also likely to be a truther or a birther or a chemtrailer
Sometimes all of the above
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They don't get a separate needle for each shot.
Yup. They can even combine them so you get even fewer shots (useful for a very needle-phobic mom or terrified kid).
Chris
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They don't get a separate needle for each shot.
And I think the polio vaccine they use is the oral one. Some of the other vacs might be nasal mist.
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Here is the CDC recommended schedule: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/downloads/child/0-18yrs-child-combined-schedule.pdf (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/downloads/child/0-18yrs-child-combined-schedule.pdf)
For both our boys, we opted not to have the Hep B shot given right at birth and had it given with one of the other sets of vaccines. We also spread out the shots in 2 month range with approval of our Pediatrician.
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And when in doubt double down on your less than optimal performance and choices.
His interviews are getting worse not better
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/02/02/this-rand-paul-interview-with-cnbc-didnt-go-well/?tid=sm_fb
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And typically the vaxxer is also likely to be a truther or a birther or a chemtrailer
Sometimes all of the above
You know they're gonna get one right someday. (then we'll never hear the end of it)
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And I think the polio vaccine they use is the oral one. Some of the other vacs might be nasal mist.
Oh yeah, I guess I got the polio one in the 60's too.
Actually, I just looked up a history of vaccination schedules:
http://vec.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-schedule/history-of-vaccine-schedule.html
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I got the old " cool scar polio " shot
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I got the old " cool scar polio " shot
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I thought the circle scar is from the smallpox vaccine?
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It might be I was young and forget
Yup it was small pox
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FTR, I am in the "vaccinate early & often" crowd. But, then, I have read a few books on disease & history, public sanitation & health, etc.
I'll play the odds, thanks. We are letting in every third-world fool, the more ignorant & savage the better. No doubt we are seeing outbreaks when those sort mix with Whole Foods Mom's and Prepper Mom's unvaccinated kids. The third world replacement population is going to bring in enough diseases for which we don't have vaccines. No need to make it easy for them.
What gets me is that kids & adults who truly can not tolerate vaccination are the only ones we can afford to let go unvaccinated. When we add on WFM's and PM's kiddos, we have sufficient infect-able population that we will have outbreaks...and possibly harm those who truly can not tolerate vaccination.
OTOH, gov't makes it difficult to defend the pro-vaccine position by producing flawed studies, being the sole contractor, and protecting the manufacturers & selves from legal risk.
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Is anyone else reminded of how they asked Romney about birth control?
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Does anyone here think that immunization should be mandatory or you go to jail?
Should the government just arrest you, have you restrained and immunized against your will?
This is an issue I've never really given a lot of thought to because I was immunized as a child. I may have gotten a tetanus booster at one point but until recently I never gave it much thought.
Is allowing the government to mandate that you be injected with organisms of their choosing part of the price we pay for civilization?
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They are really pushing the whooping cough/tetanus vaccine.
I went in for a check up and next thing you know they were trying to vaccinate me.
Mentally I wasn't prepared so I took a pass and figured I'd look into it and get it next time I'm in the office.
Tetanus I've had but what's with the whooping cough? Really I'd prefer to just get the ones that are necessary to hold off pandemics.
What is necessary and what is corporate marketing based on peddling fear?
Snohomish County is experiencing a literal epidemic of pertussis because filthy hippies don't get their kids vaccinated and it spreads to kids too young to get the vaccine.
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Be careful of dismissing the claims of the anti-vaxers. Stuff is bubbling just below the surface that will change things dramatically. This comment from a guy who was vaccinated out the ying-yang.
Chemtrails were too inefficient so they had to switch to vaccines to get the mind control agent out there. ;/
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Does anyone here think that immunization should be mandatory or you go to jail?
Should drunk driving be illegal? Firing a gun into the air in celebration? If I walk around holding a hand grenade with the pin pulled, am I really doing anything wrong? Why are you trampling my freedom bro?
ETA: I don't think jail is the right response to parents not vaccinating their kids for the major stuff. I think removal of the child and maybe forcible sterilization are much more appropriate.
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The end of Ace's take is not flattering, even though I disagree with it somewhat I post it here because he makes a very salient point about Rand's electability:
We definitely need to go with the most electable candidate. Romney in a landslide!
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We definitely need to go with the most electable candidate. Romney in a landslide!
I'm not down on Rand but I'm all for him being smart and his Pops being quiet.
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You are destined to be disappointed then
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nothing is perfect. All pharma products will have some adverse reactions. The overall benefits of vaccinations far outweigh any individual mishaps.
People that don't get their kids vaccinated are idiots.
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Lots of people hearing what they want to hear about Rand's position. I'll just leave it at that and we'll see what happens in 2016.
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Does anyone here think that immunization should be mandatory or you go to jail?
Should the government just arrest you, have you restrained and immunized against your will?
This is an issue I've never really given a lot of thought to because I was immunized as a child. I may have gotten a tetanus booster at one point but until recently I never gave it much thought.
Is allowing the government to mandate that you be injected with organisms of their choosing part of the price we pay for civilization?
nope, no jail. Mandatory quarantine if they get sick should suffice.
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nope, no jail. Mandatory quarantine if they get sick should suffice.
Combine this with no admittance to schools or daycare w/o immunization and I think you'll pretty much solve the anti-vaccination issue without any need to arrest anybody or force vaccinations.
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Mandatory quarantine if they get sick should suffice.
Only problem there is that for some diseases (see measles), you're contagious for several days before you manifest symptoms. If quarantine doesn't happen until there are symptoms (which it likely wouldn't), it's only going to be partially effective.
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I told one of my neighbors that were my kids to get sick and were I to think her unvaccinated kids were responsible I would take it out on her husband. Her kids were there they will tell dad. I wish I could be there for that .
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Snohomish County is experiencing a literal epidemic of pertussis because filthy hippies don't get their kids vaccinated and it spreads to kids too young to get the vaccine.
Yep, I hope it gets contained, it can be quite the killer.
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We need some of the vaxxers kids dying. And one of them to go postal on drs mercola and oz. maybe jenny mcarthy
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Hate to say it, but that's the only way that this stupid fuckign movement will die
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We need some of the vaxxers kids dying. And one of them to go postal on rds mercola and oz.
No, we don't. We just need to find some way to educate them on why it is important to vaccinate and how their interpretation of the risks are ill founded.
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No, we don't. We just need to find some way to educate them on why it is important to vaccinate and how their interpretation of the risks are ill founded.
I agree with you. But I don't think it's going to be possible without a tragedy. Too much of some people's whole identity is wrapped up in this.
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And these are not so much low info voters as false info voters. They have heros and prophets. Folks who went to med school. It's gonna take funerals and more than one to make folks wake up . Look at the folks they have tip toeing round. Rand Paul Christie etc .
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Pertussis is bad enough they have changed the protocol to allow pregnant women to get it so the kids carry some of that immunity till they can get their own shots
Much of the vaxxer movement is about selling supplements ala doc oz and doc mercola
And typically the vaxxer is also likely to be a truther or a birther or a chemtrailer
Sometimes all of the above
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I'm liking it!
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We need some of the vaxxers kids dying. And one of them to go postal on drs mercola and oz. maybe jenny mcarthy
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People put way too much stock in "Dr" Oz! he is just as likely to spout anti vaccination rhetoric as "truth" as real science as anyone else! That said, he is right on this one!
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It took fear of death from disease to get folk to start using vaccines. Especially the first ones like Cowpox vs Smallpox.
Lack of fear of death from disease is at the heart of the current anti-vaxxers, IMO. It will take some first-hand knowledge to change their minds.
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The real true believers will just blame big pharma for infecting their precious bodily fluids in the case of a pandemic with heavy mortality. But it will hopefully put some sense into the generic crunchy mom who's caught up in the stupid.
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http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jan/14/measles-outbreak-spreads-unvaccinated-woman-disneyland
And there was a virus (stomach IIRC) tat ran rampant through the Staples Center in LA back in November.
Robert's school had an oubreak of a stomach flu last year that had over 80% of the kids out of school for at least 2 days. They even closed it on a Monday so they could spend the weekend throughly cleaning it.
Herd immunity. What has pulled us out from the ages when most people died before they hit puberty.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10488137_10153025455221605_3539708215902296586_n.jpg?oh=3eb7c693ae03b9b19d7c731a8d6983e0&oe=55520412&__gda__=1431945036_bf87ef221754bc07b101d0a87fbe757b)
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That's nice Scout, you going to champion that type of ass hat doctor when he rants about the dangers of having a gun in your home, that he will reject you as a patient marking you down in the government required electronic records as a gun owner because you refuse to submit to his authority?
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/10488137_10153025455221605_3539708215902296586_n.jpg?oh=3eb7c693ae03b9b19d7c731a8d6983e0&oe=55520412&__gda__=1431945036_bf87ef221754bc07b101d0a87fbe757b)
Not that I'm anti-vax, but that guy sounds like a real class act. I fully support his right to turn away patients, and even have an awful bedside manner. Calling CPS for vax really crosses a line, though. Oughta be an ethics violation.
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That's nice Scout, you going to champion that type of ass hat doctor when he rants about the dangers of having a gun in your home, that he will reject you as a patient marking you down in the government required electronic records as a gun owner because you refuse to submit to his authority?
There's a huge difference between refusing a patient that refuses to vaccinate and one that will reject you as a patient because you have a gun in the home (which they could only find out about from you telling him.) Last I checked, you could fire your doctor(s) at anytime, for any or no reason.
Me having a gun in my home does not have any potential adverse effects up any of his other patients in his waiting room. Me not being vaccinated does have potential adverse effects on his other patients as he clearly stated.
Finally, isn't the the free market at work. The Libertarian ideal. To freely associate and make or not make a market with whomever you choose ? He chooses not to treat those who don't vaccinate or want a "spaced-out" schedule. Unless you are advocating that he be forced to treat anyone and everyone, regardless...
There are very, very ,very few things I think the .gov should enforce. Public Health/Sanitation and Vaccinations against dangerous and deadly diseases are two of those.
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That's nice Scout, you going to champion that type of ass hat doctor when he rants about the dangers of having a gun in your home, that he will reject you as a patient marking you down in the government required electronic records as a gun owner because you refuse to submit to his authority?
Sitting next to a gun owner does not cause harm. Sitting next to a person with measles/pertussis/etc because they're unvaccinated does.
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Sitting next to a gun owner does not cause harm. Sitting next to a person with measles/pertussis/etc because they're unvaccinated does.
Especially if you take it home to your infant child. It would be a shooting offense
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My point was that the good Doctor more than likely will cause the anti vaxxers to dig in and hold their ground even more.
I don't even disagree with him about vaccines but found myself wanting to oppose him just because of his condescending messaging.
I'd fire him as my doctor just for being a brash idiot.
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My point was that the good Doctor more than likely will cause the anti vaxxers to dig in and hold their ground even more.
I don't even disagree with him about vaccines but found myself wanting to oppose him just because of his condescending messaging.
I'd fire him as my doctor just for being a brash idiot.
He's a pediatrician and you don't have kids, so I'm sure he'd be traumatized by your firing him.
When kids are too young to be vaccinated, they make a lot of trips to the pediatrician for routine stuff. Knowing that the doc is doing his best to try to keep my unvaccinated kids from being exposed to preventable diseases would endear him to my heart.
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He's a pediatrician and you don't have kids, so I'm sure he'd be traumatized by your firing him.
LOL :laugh:
Actually the only reason I'm going to get the Pertussis inoculation is because of my contact with family and friends children.
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When kids are too young to be vaccinated, they make a lot of trips to the pediatrician for routine stuff. Knowing that the doc is doing his best to try to keep my unvaccinated kids from being exposed to preventable diseases would endear him to my heart.
+1
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I would have to say that if I discovered one of my physicians was making a CPS referral based only upon refusal to vaccinate, the physician and I would have a short, unpleasant conversation and there would be no more such referrals from that physician for that reason.
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Maybe. If it's the wrong physician you might end up in court . Not as counsel.
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Regarding the Doc that would report parents to CPS for refusing to vacinate, as he pointed out, it probably wouldn't do much more then assuage his feeling of having done something to try to save the child's life. Highly doubtful that CPS would or even could do anything with it.
Again public health/saniation being one of the very, very, very few areas that .gov has busiess sticking its nose in.
And what Balog said. Keep in mind that if the only way to save my kid was to push you off a cliff, I would, without a moment's finch or hestitation.
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Any predictions on how the anti Vax group would react if an autism prevention vaccine was created? (Yes I know autism isn't caused by viruses)
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Now that's a heck of a conundrum for em. Need to get one of their messiah to endorse it. But then the other small gods would still fight it. Do not be confused. It's all about the money for mercies and dome of his ilk. And it's interchangeable partner power